Metagame NP: RU Stage 7: Of Moons, Birds, and Monsters (BOTH SUSPECTS BANNED, DISCUSSING NEW META)

[Molk]

Alrighty, so now that Dragalge, Pidgeotite, and Serperior have left the tier, i decided to talk with the RU Council about where we should go from here, and pretty much everyone agreed that we should probably hold another suspect test a little bit after the tier shifts. As for what we're suspecting, we decided to go with Pangoro and Moltres this round. Both of these Pokemon have been controversial for a decent period of time (Pangoro since after the initial ORAS quickbans, Moltres since like late XY), and pretty much everyone felt that it was about time that we put both of them them on the chopping block. As always, if you'd like to see some in depth reasoning as to why these Pokemon are being suspected, there are some paragraphs below written about why these Pokemon were chosen, whether or not you agree with the reasoning is up to you, however.

Just like the last suspect tests, the reqs will be 2400 coil with a B value of 20.0 and the suspect test will end/voting will begin exactly two weeks after the date this post was made. Some sample values are below.

GXE N
100 28
90 35
85 40
80 49
75 63
70 90
65 174

To find out how many matches it'll take for you specifically, take your GXE, and put it into this formula

N=20.0/log2(40*GXE/2400)

Pangoro Reasoning

Pangoro's great attack stat and incredible coverage with its STAB moves alone make it extremely hard (if not impossible) to safely switch into. Pangoro's Swords Dance set is pretty much impossible for slower, defensive teams to deal with, as it easily breaks through most common stall Pokemon at +2 with Knock Off, Drain Punch, or Gunk Shot, can set up quite easily, and can keep itself healthy throughout the match thanks to Drain Punch. Even Quagsire, who would otherwise easily stop Swords Dance Pangoro, is incapable of beating it thanks to Mold Breaker. On top of this, Swords Dance Pangoro is not even dead weight against other playstyles, as a STAB Knock Off, coming off of its high attack stat often forces the opponent to sacrifice one or more Pokemon. Pangoro is also capable of pulling off an extremely threatening Choice Band set thanks to its astounding attack stat, great STAB moves (in particular, Knock Off is *extremely* spammable), and perfect coverage. While having no defensive counters isn't necessarily grounds for banning a Pokemon, it is certainly grounds for suspecting it, especially when it can just run right through a playstyle so consistently.

Moltres Reasoning

Moltres's fantastic Special Attack stat and high base power STAB moves in Fire Blast and Hurricane make it quite difficult to switch into.On top this, Moltres has a solid Speed tier that lets it get the jump on a large amount of the relevant metagame. Access to Roost punishes defensive switching and lets it recover off damage taken from weaker attacks, Stealth Rock, and Life Orb recoil, and Moltres can easily fit Hidden Power Grass onto its sets to deal with many of its offensive checks such as Kabutops and Rhyperior. Because of this, Moltres often forces teams to fodder a Pokemon or win prediction battles unless they choose to run a dedicated Moltres switch in ; Cresselia, Slowking, Regirock, and Lanturn are the main options here and all of them have their own issues,Regirock and Lanturn suffer from a lack of recovery, making them easy to wear down, while Slowking and Cresselia are vulnerable to Pursuit.

Choice Scarf Moltres has little trouble ripping through offensive teams between its blazing speed, great special attack, access to U-turn, and high base power STAB moves

On the downside, it's at least slightly easier to keep hazards on the opponent's side of the field now that Gligar's moved up to UU by usage, and Stealth Rock is as much of a thorn in Moltres's side as usual. Although whether or not this is enough to keep Moltres from being banworthy remains to be seen.

Sample Sets

Moltres:

Moltres @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Hurricane
- Flamethrower
- U-turn

Moltres @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Hurricane
- Hidden Power Grass / U-turn
- Roost

Moltres @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 124 Def / 136 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Flamethrower
- Roost

Pangoro:

Pangoro (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Iron Fist / Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Hammer Arm / Drain Punch / Superpower
- Knock Off
- Gunk Shot
- Parting Shot

NEVER SAY NO (Pangoro) @ Lum Berry / Life Orb
Ability: Iron Fist / Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance
- Gunk Shot / Iron Head

Song: Of Moons, Birds & Monsters

Moltres = Bird, Panda = Monster, don't read too much into moon ;o
-love llamas

The Immortal, hope you don't mind me tagging you here :x

 

[atomicllamas]

yfw I don't pick a shitty song

 

[Nova]

FREE MEGA BIG CHILL

Hide

 

[Jaiho]

Moltres = Bird, Panda = Monster, don't read too much into moon ;o

Moon can be for when cress gets suspected :]

 

[Cherub Agent]

you should've used this

(llamas' song is actually good though)

 

[ebeast]

yfw I don't pick a shitty song

My real face: http://puu.sh/fuBPT.jpg
And you're wrong Hello Kitty was a really non-shit song.

 

[col49]

guys, i tried. i pushed for some bison machine. but nah, gotta be llamas. yeah, it's not as bad as usual, but are we really finna subject ourselves to mediocrity just b.c "it's not so bad"? we deserve better. you deserve better. stand by me, and together, we can changes things. below i have a link to an online petition that, according the information i just this second made up, has definitive, judicial authority to ban user: atomicllamas from any and all ru metagame threads from hereon out. let's do something, my friends, together.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/llamas-smells-and-should-git

 

[Matt LaMar]

I feel like if these two get banned then Doublade becomes much more powerful

 

[Damin]

Imo if moltres had been suspect (and banned, maybe) in late-xy, that would've been the perfect metagame. Not so sure right now tho, I'll give some thoughts about it before starting arguing here

 

[Ares]

Initial thoughts on Pangoro.

Tbh, I think Pangoro should of been on the suspect slate on the last test; however, I understand why Molk didn't put it on and accept that. Now that Pangoro is on the slab I gotta say how I find it incredibly ironic that with the simple addition of Knock Off (and to a lesser extent Drain Punch / Gunk Shot) that this thing shot up from the depths of NU to be landed in a RU suspect test.

Simply put, Pangoro is a low opportunity cost Pokemon, meaning if you are playing any form of offense there is little to no reason to not put Pangoro on your team. It is pretty much at least 1 guarenteed KO against faster teams, at least 1-2 KOs against bulky offense due to where its speed stat sits, and against balance it has the potential to net 3 or more KOs depending on team matchup. That doesn't even take into account that you can straight up 6-0 stall teams with a variation of SD Pangoro due to its ability to get around most of its checks and counters with a slight variation to its move slots. There are a variety of sets that Pangoro can run, all of them a slight variation on Knock Off / Fighting Move / coverage move / filler, and each one of these sets caters to a team that might be struggling against one playstyle or another. With the departure of Gligar this means that Pangoro doesn't even have a reason to run Ice Punch anymore and can stick with a Poison-type move to get all the coverage it needs. As far as sets go, Band causes offense problems, Life Orb causes most playstyles trouble, while SD cause slower teams and stall a ton of trouble. Due to its coverage once Pangoro is in safely the opponent will be hard pressed to find a good switch in, with Band it requires some prediction but lets be honest here, there is little reason not to go for Knock Off (cause its the best move in the game ofc). On top of all of this Pangoro has decent bulk allowing it to switch into resisted hits taking little, it also has the ability to recover health with Drain Punch to increase survivability. The support options offered to Pangoro are really quite good for an offensive mon, it has its unique move Parting Shot which allows you to nab momentum, Taunt to shut down Stall, Substitute to set up on defensive mons, and Swords Dance to sweep slower teams. Its speed stat, while not the fastest out there, sits at a high enough base stat to outpace a good portion of the slower bulkier meta allowing it to do quite a bit.

Overall I think Pangoro is a fantastic Pokemon, right now going into this suspect test I'm leaning towards ban. That may or may not change while getting reqs, but I forsee a ton of Panda on the ladder.

Unsure on Moltres as there has been quite the controversy over it in XY as well as lately in ORAS, glad to see that its at least being looked at and please keep in mind that suspect =/= ban.

Happy laddering!

 

[tehy]

Pangoro is wayyy too damn good versus stall, let's just put that out there. Bangoro

Excited for the Lunatone suspect next. This truly broken threat has been overlooked for 2 long. Finally i am vindicated

 

[Oddish is the best]

My brief thoughts

Pangoro: BAN: This thing is just a monster for reasons people have already stated. It's just a nightmare for stall and balance and isn't a liability against offense either.

Moltres: Unsure: I kinda don't know about moltres... on the one hand, it has fearsome stab moves and breaks through most walls. On the other hand, it needs a spinner or defogger because of SR and with gligar gone it's actually hard to find something to pair with moltres that provides good synergy (kabutops but... yea...). It's stabs also have unreliable accuracy at 70 and 85% which is kind of a letdown. The metagame is also pretty prepared for it and most teams seem to have answers for it (as oppossed to pangoro which doesn't really have counters). I'm kind of leaning towards a not banning it.


Just my 2 cents for whatever it's worth lol

 

[phantom]

pangoro seems like another mon that's gonna get banned by a 70%+ majority vote, which i don't mind, so idc to comment on it. i will comment on moltres though.

just like in xy, i think moltres is pretty centralizing and to a very unhealthy degree. offensive teams have to run av kabutops to keep their team from being destroyed by the scarf set, and av kabu is incredibly suboptimal outside of beating choice scarf moltres. the same can be seen on stall teams when dealing with the lo set. a lot of stallbuilds must incorporate regirock to take on the lo set, and the reason why a pokemon that's nearly 100% outclassed by rhyperior is being used over it on those teams is because it takes less dmg to lo moltres's hp grass... if that doesn't seem like a problem then idk what does. it can be argued that now with gligar gone, hazard removal is unreliable, and to an extent it is, but i don't think it's so bad now that's it's impossible to keep sr off the field should you make the effort to, and henceforth i don't think gligar's departure really changes moltres's status as a broken pokemon. aside from removing a broken pokemon, i feel as if moltres's removal from the tier would in turn ease the strain it has on teambuilding for both offense and stall, and subsequently, many of the pokemon that moltres tends to destroy happen to be very strong checks to cresselia. i know this isn't the suspect for it, but i do feel it was the perfect decision not suspecting cress now, because if moltres leaves, almost all of its checks and counters get better which would in turn make cresselia a lot easier to manage. basically, moltres leaving is just an overall positive for ru as whole, so hopefully you, the voters, make the right decision!!!

 

[SlickHippo99]

So, while not exactly the greatest mon in RU right now, Lanturn actually matches up really well against all Moltres variants aside from the sunny day one, and can even switch directly into the Scarf set without any fear. Here are some calcs with Moltres vs a Specs Lanturn set I've been using:

Vs Life Orb Moltres:
252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Hidden Power Grass vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Lanturn: 208-247 (47.5 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lanturn Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 390-458 (121.4 - 142.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Vs Scarfed:
252+ SpA Moltres Fire Blast vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Lanturn: 120-142 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- 82.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Moltres Hidden Power Grass vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Lanturn: 176-208 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lanturn Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 390-458 (121.4 - 142.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Lanturn can switch directly into Scarfed variants of Moltres even if they carry the HP Grass and use it, and can switch directly into Life Orb if it does not predict you and go for the HP Grass. Maybe with this suspect Lanturn will finally get some RU love. Oh yeah and Pangoro needs to go.

 

[Mr.378]

Not too bad a decision. While the tiers shifts have made RU a better tier these two pokemon do stand out more then the others in terms of how good they are.

Pangoro is a very hard hitter that has a great move pool. The additions ORAS gave it are very good and really expanded it's possibilities and offensive prowess. It can destroy unprepared or even many prepared defensive, balanced or even offensive team variants with pretty good ease and has a great STAB combination on top of its already good move pool and solid 124 base attack. It overall is too good for the tier and should be sent to BL2.

Moltres on the other hand is less obvious. On one hand it has some bad weaknesses. It being 4x weak to Stealth Rock is the most notable while having a weakness to to water which is never good and allows for some choice bulky waters to have a good amount of defensive utility against it. It also can have a difficult time breaking through it's checks and counters. It also has the minor problem of it's best moves being inaccurate which isn't a reason for it to stay per say it is never a good thing either. On the other hand it also boasts a great amount of power with its STABed attacks which can rip most non resists apart. The choice sets are very strong offensively, being able to blow a lot of the tier away with these attacks. With it's weaknesses it requires some obvious team support and a degree of building around but with the support is a very strong attacker and possibly defensive mon. I am more on the fence with Moltres then I am Pangoro. I am still undecided with how I feel on it.

 

[tehy]

worth noting that i'm using Lickilicky over Audino currently

it's fucking good and I don't really regret it but Audino is arguably much better;it just can't wall LO moltres (and neither can SpD aroma which I also stopped using for this reason, though it technically can wishstall it can't do anything back and has problems switching in w/rox)
is that overcentralizing or not? you decide. i'd really like to use Audino or Aromatisse though, js

 

[The Immortal]

Ladder is up. Sorry for the delay but the tag didn't alert me.

 

[Fyuop]

Pangoro: is really amazing, with his new Move Pool (Drain Punch, Elemental Punches, Gunk Shot) and with Scrappy (Let Give it allows greater damage in Ghosts like Doublade) and Iron Fist (Boosts STAB Drain Punch and Ice Punch) I Think doesn't existe something that can enters 100% safely, but i don't think he is all this broken, 4x Fairy Weakness is very remarkable, Anything with Good special attack and with Dazzling Gleam or Good Attack With Play Rough, But, this is no reason for don't BAN him, Like i said, Nothing can enter with 100% Safely in his Move Pool


Moltres: No Ban, Taking 50/49% in Stealth Rock, He will not resist A Good Hit, If you ahve moltres, Your Priority is Remove Hazards, So, you can Attract Spinners / Defogers with Stealth Rock Inducers and ''Trap them'', He also have counters, Slowking, Alomomola, Jelicent etc...

 

[AlphaGiratina]

IMO Pangoro needs to go (Yea im happy about this test). Pangoro is just a monster in RU. It has almost no switch-ins due to its monstrous offensvie typing, and LO Knock Off destroys everything on the switch in. In addition, goro is relatively bulky and can take a hit or two and retalate with a drain punch. Fairy types in RU can't even wall this thing due to Gunk Shot shoving them quite literally into the dumpster. Teams need to have several answers to it in order to beat it, and Pangoro wipes his arse with an entire playstyle, being stall. It's overcentralizing to RU and needs to go. BAN.

As for Moltres, im not so sure. With bulky mons like Cresselia and Aromatisse hard-walling it and easily switching in 252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 181-214 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery [Not even specially defensive and may not kill with rocks up]) (252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aromatisse: 177-211 (43.5 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery[This one's more shaky lol]), in addition to Lanturn just stopping it unless its a sunny day + solarbeam set, im not to0 sure Moltres is necessarily unhealthy for the RU meta. Scarf Emboar, one of the new popular mons in the tier, easily checks anything but a scarf moltres, and thats just one of its list of checks, which include Scarf Magneton, Jolteon, AV Braviary, Delphox, and Heliolisk. Overall, im not saying it isnt banworthy, just saying i need to see more of what it can do and why it isn't healthy for the RU Meta. Undecided for now.

 

[Afro Smash]

I WANT GLIGAR BACK

 

[Mew2]

I'm really glad to see the Pangoro test a lot of people (including me) were expecting especially now without Gligar, it doesn't really need Ice Punch and can freely run Poison Jab/ Gunk Shot to deal with fairy types such as Aromatisse or Mega Audino. It is also a very versatile pokemon that can run a lot of different sets and abilities that can completely change his list of counters (for example with Mold breaker and E-que it deals with Weezing). In my opinion, stall needs to run specific sets or a specific core to deal with every possibility making too much to handle for the meta.

Now with Moltres... oh God I will try to be really careful with what I'm gonna say because I know that both sides of the coin are extremely "passionate" and they get easily insulted. In my opinion, Moltres has never and isn't broken: While it's true that HO teams have a hard time dealing with his CS set and more defensive teams have a hard time dealing with LO and Sub Toxic set, people often forget that Moltres can't run every set. Sure HO will usually lose some pokes to the scarf set but hey, HO teams aren't meant to switch into stuff! Not to mention that, although Moltres has powerful moves, they all have shitty accuracy and one miss can easily cost you the entire game. Finally, Moltres losses half of it's health when he switches in if Stealth Rocks are present and with Gligar's loss Moltres has a harder time finding partners that can remove hazards for him. I know my opinion doesn't matter because Moltres will get banned anyways due to all the players that have believed this thing to be broken ever since late XY but time will tell if they hopefully change their minds with ladder play.

Finally, I want to say that my choices are by no reason final and are susceptible to change during ladder play.

 

[Afro Smash]

You cant say that Pangoro has a multitude of sets that make it too difficult to counter, and then go on to say that although moltres does the same thing it isn't broken since it can't run all those sets at the same time. You have to apply that same logic to both pokemon.

As for accuracy, that isn't a legit argument since you never play around Moltres assuming a miss, so it forces you to make the same plays/build the same way as if it had 100% accurate moves.

I'm pro ban for both atm

 

[Delg]

Will Pangoro and Moltres be available for use during the test? Or no?

 

[Kableye]

Will Pangoro and Moltres be available for use during the test? Or no?

Yeah they are, I've been using Pangoro all day. It seems RU typically includes the suspects on the ladder, which makes sense considering a lot of the players who are on the ladder are people who have never played this tier, so they'd have no clue why the suspects were or were not broken. And yes I did include that rant just so this isnt a one liner.

 

[AlphaGiratina]

IMO Pangoro needs to go (Yea im happy about this test). Pangoro is just a monster in RU. It has almost no switch-ins due to its monstrous offensvie typing, and LO Knock Off destroys everything on the switch in. In addition, goro is relatively bulky and can take a hit or two and retalate with a drain punch. Fairy types in RU can't even wall this thing due to Gunk Shot shoving them quite literally into the dumpster. Teams need to have several answers to it in order to beat it, and Pangoro wipes his arse with an entire playstyle, being stall. It's overcentralizing to RU and needs to go. BAN.

As for Moltres, im not so sure. With bulky mons like Cresselia and Aromatisse hard-walling it and easily switching in 252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 181-214 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery [Not even specially defensive and may not kill with rocks up]) (252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aromatisse: 177-211 (43.5 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery[This one's more shaky lol]), in addition to Lanturn just stopping it unless its a sunny day + solarbeam set, im not to0 sure Moltres is necessarily unhealthy for the RU meta. Scarf Emboar, one of the new popular mons in the tier, easily checks anything but a scarf moltres, and thats just one of its list of checks, which include Scarf Magneton, Jolteon, AV Braviary, Delphox, and Heliolisk. Overall, im not saying it isnt banworthy, just saying i need to see more of what it can do and why it isn't healthy for the RU Meta. Undecided for now.

OK I take it back about Moltres. Been playing the suspect ladder for the last couple of hours or so, and this thing needs to be stopped. Unless you're literally a full stall team this thing demolishes everything. I underestimated how much Moltres + team support demolishes balance in RU, and even offense gets obliterated by Hurricane + Fire Blast. This thing needs to be prepared HEAVILY for or else it will rip teams to shreds, and thus I am now pro-ban for both suspects.

 

[GOthee]

OK I take it back about Moltres. Been playing the suspect ladder for the last couple of hours or so, and this thing needs to be stopped. Unless you're literally a full stall team this thing demolishes everything. I underestimated how much Moltres + team support demolishes balance in RU, and even offense gets obliterated by Hurricane + Fire Blast. This thing needs to be prepared HEAVILY for or else it will rip teams to shreds, and thus I am now pro-ban for both suspects.

Yeah, i remember it switching and losing half hp in worst scenario but he also gets to threaten to ko my best sweepers, or just rost of damage and keep stalling, and that is in the WORST case..