Metagame NP: RU Stage 9: Save Tonight (see: post #22)

phantom

is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
RU Co-Leader
#1
Tier shifts are finally here! RU lost Kommo-o and Seismitoad as both moved up to UU by usage, but RU gained three new Pokemon:


While it would be ideal to give the tier some time to settle, the tier shifts have arguably negligible impact on the suspect's viability, which has been on the radar for quite some time now. Because of this, RU will proceed with the following suspect as planned:


DURANT SUSPECT

Brought to you by a majority consensus among the RU council and by popular demand, the RU council has deemed Durant to be deserving of a suspect test. As always, if you'd like to see some in-depth reasoning as to why this Pokemon is being suspected, there is a paragraph written below about why Durant in particular was chosen. The suspect test will last 10 days, and the deadline will be 11:59 PM EST on the 21st of January, assuming the ladder is up the next day.

The requirements will be 2800 coil with a B value of 9.0, but you will need to finish within 62 games. I will know if you reset your win loss, given its determined by GXE. Do not attempt to game the system, you will be infracted if I catch you, and I will. A GXE of 77.5 is the required minimum.

To find out how many matches it'll take for you specifically, take your GXE and put it into this formula:

=9.0/log2(40*GXE/2800)

Durant is being suspected because it's combination of Speed, power, and ability to choose its counters has made it one of the most consistent breakers in RU. Its Hone Claws sets allows it to muscle through common defensive staples with Fightnium Z, including Milotic and Mega Steelix. Its Speed tier puts it above nearly every wallbreaker and the majority of offensive Pokemon in the tier, making it difficult for even offensive teams to pin down. Furthermore, its ability to equip a Choice Band set allows it to beat all of the Pokemon that can handle its Hone Claws set, such as defensive Moltres and Unaware Users, while granting it the ability to KO nearly every offensive threat with the right move.

NP Song:

Tagging The Immortal for a suspect ladder. This suspect ladder will include Durant in it. Thanks in advance :toast:

Keep in mind that this thread is to remain a discussion thread. Avoid one liners and shit posts.
 
#3
Ah yes, the suspect we have been waiting for, man this bug as been a pain to build against and i feel im forced to bring counters to it. Durat has been the bane of my Laddering Career and im glad we can vote to be gone, When and if i get Reqs, im voting for BAN so we can calm about being 6-0d by Durant.
 
#4
This suspect is long overdue, Durant has been one of the most centralized Pokemon in the tier, making offense, both heavy and bulky playstyles on par with balance. However, it's main issue is the diverse amount of sets it can run and the strain it can put into teambuilding. One of its best set, Hone Claws, with either Fightinium Z or Darkinium Z, pressures usual checks such as Milotic, Gligar, Doublade, Mandibuzz, and Mega Steelix. Mandibuzz, while dropping recently, does little to change the viability of Durant, as +1 Z Superpower can actually kill after Stealth Rock and a bit of prior damage, this is assuming Mandibuzz is max Def +ve nature, which is less of a utility as SpD ones. Z Superpower also takes care of Milotic, meaning it cannot switch into Durant once it uses Hone Claws. While Gligar is a more reliable check, +1 Iron Head does around 40%, while Gligar cannot do much damage with Earthquake, meaning Durant is more likely to flinch it and beat it 1v1. While Z move Durant does fall to stall, Choice Band does not. Quagsire can easily be 2HKOed by X-Scissor, while Moltres is 2HKOed with Crunch after a bit damage.

I personally think what pushes Durant over the edge is its Speed tier, outspeeding key Pokemon such as Nidoqueen, Sigilyph, Yanmega, Shaymin locked into Seed Flare, Mega Glalie, Rotom-Mow, Necrozma, Mega Blastoise, Feraligatr, and Meloetta. Durant can pretty much OHKO all these Pokemon apart from Mega Blastoise (which can be KOed after a bit of chip, considering it is a solid spinner, and therefore tend to switch into hazards as well), acting as a great revenge killer. Its defense and typing is also good enough to switch into Mega Glalie, Mega Steelix, and Grass-types such as Chesnaught, Scarf Roserade locked into Sludge Bomb and Leaf Storm, and Scarf Shyamin locked into Seed Flare reliably.

Choice Scarf Durant is a fantastic revenge killer, being able to handle Choice Scarf Gardevoir, Zygarde - 10%, Salazzle, Choice Scarf Flygon, Sneasel, and Aerodactyl with ease, and is one of the most splashable Pokemon on offensive builds, which covers Ice-type weakness (this is huge for offensive builds, as they usually pack a Grass-, Flying-, or Dragon-type Pokemon). While it is a fantastic Pokemon to use, Choice Scarf Durant also hurts offensive builds a lot, as they most often lack a dedicated switch in to Durant, and are forced to sack a Pokemon.

While dedicated checks such as Moltres and Milotic exists, the former is 4x weak to Stealth Rock and can be easily worn down, while the latter cannot really switch into it. Yes, Durant actually makes a playstyle viable enough to be used in high level tournament games, and the tier will definitely be bulkier without it, but that does not give it the right to stay in and limit teambuilding, taking down its checks, and being too good for the tier. Ban it.
 

avocado

If you're waiting all your life, you won't ever go
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
#5
I wanna make something very clear before I say anything: saying "broken checks broken isn't an excuse to keep something" is NOT an excuse to ban Durant and I'll explain why. Durant in it's current form is an excellent stop to Cresselia (lacking HP Fire, no one uses that), it puts immense pressure on Milotic and Gligar, and it straight up mauls Porygon2 and Umbreon. We don't have a single Pokemon besides it in RU that does all of that, and that's a bad thing. Not because it means Durant is broken, but because it's the only Pokemon that you have to actually prepare for consciously and you can't just slap 3 extremely good (and potentially ban-worthy) bulky Pokemon and call it a day since they can check the entire tier, no. Durant needs other checks, and that fact promotes diversity and doesn't limit it in my opinion.

A lot of people would read the above paragraph and think, "if we ban durant and other threats appear broken we'll ban them," but the fact is we won't. If we ban Durant and it makes other bulky Pokemon that much better, no one will do anything. People will say they're too passive or they don't have as much impact on their own as Pokemon like Durant do, and that's correct, but it doesn't mean they're any less ban-worthy in their own right. Milotic is the most splashable Pokemon in the tier and how many times were you building and you'd be like "damn I lose to gatr snorlax steelix and nidoqueen" and then you just put a Milotic and they all instantly cease to be problems for the team. If anything, Milotic is way more restrictive in teambuilding than durant is because you practically need it if it's anything besides hyper or just momentum-based offense. The same applies to Cresselia but to a much lesser degree cuz it's not as flexible and splashable as Milotic, it just has a lot more bulk that serves as a good raw check to a lot of things. The reason Bewear/Pangoro/Honchkrow aren't that good atm is because Cresselia just puts 144 speed and it outspeeds all of them while acting as a good switch-in, it's disgusting.

Point is, Durant's presence in the tier is healthy because it limits the bulky catch-all Pokemon that truly plague this tier and probably are the reason RU has such a bad stigma among like everyone else outside of the community, and banning it will only make said Pokemon stronger and we'll never look at them because they're a lot more "subjectively broken" than offensive Pokemon like Durant and Feraligatr, because their impact can be seen as a lot more subtle by a lot of players. They're extremely less likely to be banned than offensive Pokemon in pretty much all tiers on Smogon.

I use XY and early ORAS as my proof of the exact phenomenon i'm describing. We banned Pokemon like Durant, Mega Abomasnow, Moltres, Pangoro, and Tyrantrum, and the end result was a much bulkier and fatter tier than we started with, and we already started with a pretty fucking fat tier thanks to Alomomola. I don't want USUM RU to repeat the same mistake again.
 
#6
Durant in it's current form is an excellent stop to Cresselia (lacking HP Fire, no one uses that), it puts immense pressure on Milotic and Gligar, and it straight up mauls Porygon2 and Umbreon. We don't have a single Pokemon besides it in RU that does all of that, and that's a bad thing.
Except that we do? Virizion does that, Bewear does that - Cress runs speed but can't ohko and is at risk from the z-move -, Machamp does that, even Taunt Vanilluxe does that. What none of them do is, like Arifeen mentioned, murder offence to the point where it's either sack, run your own Durant and ideally scarf it, or use highly specific niche mons like Qwilfish to have something to hold it back. That's what makes Durant obnoxious, and it's also what makes usage of creative balance breakers difficult. Virizion is held so far back because Durant has one stupid point in speed over it, to give the most obvious example, and Scarf Durant destroys a signficant amount of offensive counterplay to it because it has the power and coverage to hit almost all of them, especially with Kommo-o leaving the tier. Other thing is:

I use XY and early ORAS as my proof of the exact phenomenon i'm describing. We banned Pokemon like Durant, Mega Abomasnow, Moltres, Pangoro, and Tyrantrum, and the end result was a much bulkier and fatter tier than we started with, and we already started with a pretty fucking fat tier thanks to Alomomola. I don't want USUM RU to repeat the same mistake again.
The problem with oras RU at the end, because everything you mentioned leads to that, is not that the bans directly favoured bulky teams. Durant was a nightmare against offence largely, Tyrantrum could go either way, Sharpedo offence, Abomasnow was stupid with both, Slurpuff and Honchkrow ate offence alive, same with Shaymin with that speed tier. The problem with oras RU was that the good breakers ended up being largely psychic types that could be pursuit trapped, like NP Hoopa, CM Meloetta, CM Delphox, Sigilyph, which made a specific trend in teambuilding very obnoxious. That's really far from the case in USM RU, where we got better offensive rockers, better offensive removers, a large variety of fighting breakers and z-move users.

Finally, the main reason why I wanted this suspect, and why I think Durant itself is problematic in this metagame, is really how easy it is to use. There isn't a offensive team in the tier that can't benefit from it in any way, and you always have the advantage because you can always decides a specific set to make it do what you need it to do. While on average, Durant has a ridiculous matchup against offence due to typing/power/speed, the use of CB makes defensive counterplay nearly impossible, the use of scarf makes revenging an ordeal, a multitude of z-move options if you want to specifically tailor to an opponent when you're aware of their tendencies. And all of that without ever asking the question, does adding Durant help me here? Because the answer is not going to be no, there's hardly any reason to not fit it on a team when it can potentially put that much pressure on any build.
 
Last edited:
#7
Virizion and Bewear are not excellent stops to Cresselia. +2 252 Atk Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 108-127 (32.3 - 38%) -- 95.6% chance to 3HKO But yeah I agree with you. Durant is extremely easy to slap on offensive teams and creates an infinitely easier playing field in a majority of matchups
 

avocado

If you're waiting all your life, you won't ever go
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
#8
Except that we do? Virizion does that, Bewear does that - Cress runs speed but can't ohko and is at risk from the z-move -, Machamp does that, even Taunt Vanilluxe does that. What none of them do is, like Arifeen mentioned, murder offence to the point where it's either sack, run your own Durant and ideally scarf it, or use highly specific niche mons like Qwilfish to have something to hold it back. That's what makes Durant obnoxious, and it's also what makes usage of creative balance breakers difficult. Virizion is held so far back because Durant has one stupid point in speed over it, to give the most obvious example, and Scarf Durant destroys a signficant amount of offensive counterplay to it because it has the power and coverage to hit almost all of them, especially with Kommo-o leaving the tier.
The difference between all of those Pokemon and Durant is a big one: they're not immune to Toxic. Durant being immune to toxic is half the reason its so good vs fat shit. Another thing is Bewear, Machamp, and Virizion can all struggle vs Cresselia. A z-move from bewear at +2 can potentially OHKO Cress (50% roll with return and guaranteed with d-edge both after rocks) but it's not always the case and psychic 2hkos. Virizion does pitiful damage unless its grassium z, which is a mon I admit haven't really considered for other factors, durant being one of them lol. It's still another mon that can potentially drop to toxic though. As for Machamp, it's absolutely cucked by Cresselia and that's a fact. Taunt vanilluxe is something I don't really understand though so u need to elaborate on that if u want.

Also I truly believe people overexaggerate the usefulness of scarf durant. it's not as reliable as people claim it to be and that's not something I'd want out of my revenge killer. Not to mention Steel resists and other fighting/dark resists can play around it. I also believe offense adapted to Durant, and offense in general is a lot more flexible because you'll always have something faster than Durant, and if it's scarf then you'll always have something that can live a hit. It's typing and stats are really good to have for a revenge killer but I'd rather use Flygon, who also has a good typing/ability of its own in addition to U-turn, as a scarfer. Iron Head and Outrage's damage output are comparable even, with iron head only being about 4% stronger. I don't see how scarf Durant is good, honestly.

The problem with oras RU at the end, because everything you mentioned leads to that, is not that the bans directly favoured bulky teams. Durant was a nightmare against offence largely, Tyrantrum could go either way, Sharpedo offence, Abomasnow was stupid with both, Slurpuff and Honchkrow ate offence alive, same with Shaymin with that speed tier. The problem with oras RU was that the good breakers ended up being largely psychic types that could be pursuit trapped, like NP Hoopa, CM Meloetta, CM Delphox, Sigilyph, which made a specific trend in teambuilding very obnoxious. That's really far from the case in USM RU, where we got better offensive rockers, better offensive removers, a large variety of fighting breakers and z-move users.
I can't really talk about ORAS RU at the end because I wasn't there. I quit a long time before hoopa even came out, before venusaur/flygon/aero/aggron dropped. The problem I'm highlighting was a thing towards end of XY and beginning of ORAS. Also I didn't list Honchkrow, Slurpuff, and Sharpedo or any other mon I didn't mention because I'm very aware they were mostly threatening vs offense or good at doing other things, but the mons I listed were mostly proficient vs fat teams and being good (broken vs offense or not is something I can't argue, it's a blur) vs offense was just a coincidence/something that ever so slightly pushed them off the edge.
 
#9
The difference between all of those Pokemon and Durant is a big one: they're not immune to Toxic. Durant being immune to toxic is half the reason its so good vs fat shit. Another thing is Bewear, Machamp, and Virizion can all struggle vs Cresselia. A z-move from bewear at +2 can potentially OHKO Cress (50% roll with return and guaranteed with d-edge both after rocks) but it's not always the case and psychic 2hkos. Virizion does pitiful damage unless its grassium z, which is a mon I admit haven't really considered for other factors, durant being one of them lol. It's still another mon that can potentially drop to toxic though. As for Machamp, it's absolutely cucked by Cresselia and that's a fact. Taunt vanilluxe is something I don't really understand though so u need to elaborate on that if u want.

Also I truly believe people overexaggerate the usefulness of scarf durant. it's not as reliable as people claim it to be and that's not something I'd want out of my revenge killer. Not to mention Steel resists and other fighting/dark resists can play around it. I also believe offense adapted to Durant, and offense in general is a lot more flexible because you'll always have something faster than Durant, and if it's scarf then you'll always have something that can live a hit. It's typing and stats are really good to have for a revenge killer but I'd rather use Flygon, who also has a good typing/ability of its own in addition to U-turn, as a scarfer. Iron Head and Outrage's damage output are comparable even, with iron head only being about 4% stronger. I don't see how scarf Durant is good, honestly.
Immunity to toxic is honestly irrelevant here since Durant only switches into a predicted recover anyway. It can't take a Foul Play from Umbreon/Mandibuzz that well, can't take a Scald from Milotic, and I've seen more than enough HP Fire Cresselia in gen VII to not be wary of it regardless. P2 is easier to switch into, but P2 is also noticeably less useful than any of them with Sharpedo being gone and Gatr using Superpower. And honestly your problem seems to be way more with Cresselia than anything, so many you should write about why it should be suspected?

Scarf Durant is notably different from Scarf Flygon regardless of Outrage being a strong move. For one, Outrage sucks if it's not cleaning. Everytime someone clicks that move I see a dead Flygon regardless, be it because it's picked off by Abomasnow/Glalie or because there's a fairy/steel lurking. Earthquake is a decent stab but too many of Flygon's switchins resists it, so both issues tend to make U-turn obvious. Also, and this goes back to Durant being so malleable. Scarf Flygon is extremely obvious from teambuilding. You can't seriously see a Durant a team preview and think "oh, here's the scarfer" and if you do there's obviously a good chance you'll be wrong and it will be costly. Not to mention, like Arifeen said, Durant brings a surprisingly decent ice resist for offence, and as a scarfer it's about the best speed control you'll see.



I can't really talk about ORAS RU at the end because I wasn't there. I quit a long time before hoopa even came out, before venusaur/flygon/aero/aggron dropped. The problem I'm highlighting was a thing towards end of XY and beginning of ORAS. Also I didn't list Honchkrow, Slurpuff, and Sharpedo or any other mon I didn't mention because I'm very aware they were mostly threatening vs offense or good at doing other things, but the mons I listed were mostly proficient vs fat teams and being good (broken vs offense or not is something I can't argue, it's a blur) vs offense was just a coincidence/something that ever so slightly pushed them off the edge.
But that's the problem isn't it? I wasn't around from the beginning of oras, but I was there for Abomasnow - It brought me to the tier! - and Tyrantrum and you brought both up. So I saw what happened with those bans... and that was near the end of oras RU so if you aren't talking about that period, what are you talking about then? Regardless, Durant just makes to the meta what you said, but well, the other way around. It's insanely proefficient against offence - I still don't see how it adapted, and I somehow managed to make offence that could deal with it - and its benefits against bulkier teams are a bonus that only makes teambuilding harder in general.
 

avocado

If you're waiting all your life, you won't ever go
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
#11
Immunity to toxic is honestly irrelevant here since Durant only switches into a predicted recover anyway. It can't take a Foul Play from Umbreon/Mandibuzz that well, can't take a Scald from Milotic, and I've seen more than enough HP Fire Cresselia in gen VII to not be wary of it regardless. P2 is easier to switch into, but P2 is also noticeably less useful than any of them with Sharpedo being gone and Gatr using Superpower. And honestly your problem seems to be way more with Cresselia than anything, so many you should write about why it should be suspected?

Scarf Durant is notably different from Scarf Flygon regardless of Outrage being a strong move. For one, Outrage sucks if it's not cleaning. Everytime someone clicks that move I see a dead Flygon regardless, be it because it's picked off by Abomasnow/Glalie or because there's a fairy/steel lurking. Earthquake is a decent stab but too many of Flygon's switchins resists it, so both issues tend to make U-turn obvious. Also, and this goes back to Durant being so malleable. Scarf Flygon is extremely obvious from teambuilding. You can't seriously see a Durant a team preview and think "oh, here's the scarfer" and if you do there's obviously a good chance you'll be wrong and it will be costly. Not to mention, like Arifeen said, Durant brings a surprisingly decent ice resist for offence, and as a scarfer it's about the best speed control you'll see.
But I wasn't implying it can switch in, they just can't Toxic it and switch out when it comes in/forces them out like other threats do. If Virizion comes into milotic it'd toxic and switch out to something that can take a +2 whatever hit, this ensures virizion can be taken down rather easily. If u get in Durant on Cress (lacking hp fire) it's free setup or a free hit on anything, regardless of what Cresselia does. It has simply no way of bypassing Durant, unlike other mons where it can toxic live a hit get chip and just wear them down and put them on a timer.

you're right though a lot of what I say comes down to either milotic or cresselia, the latter of which might be really deserving of a suspect, but I haven't really given it much though. Ideally I'd like a fucking toxic ban but we all know thats not happening lmao.

I agree on Flygon being more predictable but DD is also pretty much as threatening as Durant can be with hone claws so if you mess that up it will also be costly. I do understand scarf is more common and u-turn is usually a giveaway of it being scarf, but that fact alone doesn't make it any less reliable. This could also change with kommo leaving and dd might be more prominent again.


But that's the problem isn't it? I wasn't around from the beginning of oras, but I was there for Abomasnow - It brought me to the tier! - and Tyrantrum and you brought both up. So I saw what happened with those bans... and that was near the end of oras RU so if you aren't talking about that period, what are you talking about then? Regardless, Durant just makes to the meta what you said, but well, the other way around. It's insanely proefficient against offence - I still don't see how it adapted, and I somehow managed to make offence that could deal with it - and its benefits against bulkier teams are a bonus that only makes teambuilding harder in general.
I'm entirely talking about regimola and the sour taste it left in my mouth
 
Last edited by a moderator:
#13
Moving away from Durant for a minute, I am trying to figure out the impact of the three new drops.
Mandibuzz gives us a new defogger, but I am not sure how much of an impact that has when gligar is so common. Mandibuzz at least has no 4x weaknesses and foul play can help punish offense. This could be a new defogger that fits well on stall and semi-stall, especially with Roost/Defog/Toxic/Foul Play.
Kingdra has several good sets (Critdra/Rain sweeper/Dragon Dance) and it was BL2 last gen. This generation, it will probably still be great but not broken because we have more checks to it (Florges and other bulky fairies, Milotic). I look forward to using it often. Rain will get a new lease on life due to having a much better sweeper. This could pose a danger to offense if it is at double speed (such as in Rain). Critdra can also be a problem because not only does offense have trouble switching in, stall could have a problem switching into Draco Meteors if steels and fairies are down.
Mega Blastoise could be a good bulky special attacker or Rapid spinner due to its high bulk and special attack. Dark Pulse is a must on rapid spin sets to threaten ghost types. Note that all out special attacker sets could also work.
I hope you have fun with the new pokemon!
 
#14
Durant is an incredibly powerful pokemon in RU and something that I believe is too much for the tier. Rock Slide on it is helpful coverage, being able to to take down things like Moltres and defensive Rotom-Heat after a boost and stealth rocks. Add crunch, which allows it to deal large amounts of damage to things like Doublade coming in. This, plus a few other decent coverage moves and having sufficient opportunities to set up, leaves it's shaky accuracy to be it's main flaw while sweeping worn-down or semi-worn down teams in many cases.
 

Feliburn

Take it in your heart now
is a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
#15
Ok Durant suspect has been long coming and now that we got stats I'm happy we can finally go through with the suspect. This mon is so good that most of the time you'll need an entire core to keep it in check and probably a scarfer with a tech like hidden power fire to revenge it because ant outspeeds a vast majority of the tier. I never really cared about the scarf set much cause I don't really like it as one and I've never had issues with a scarf Durant before, to me Choice Band and Hone Claws Z move are the best sets.


Durant (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- X-Scissor
- Superpower
- Crunch

This is the set I've spammed the most in this generation, it's so easy to just click attacks from a pokemon with over 700 attack right off the bat, personally the only way I've checked this mon is with Gligar + Milotic in most cases, generally a pokemon that resists iron head + one that resists the other three attacks, and as usual have ways to outspeed it and revenge it. With the hone claws set it gets a lot trickier cause Gligar doesn't really do much damage to durant with Earthquake to the point where ant can get a boost on the switchin and another one vs it, and with a z move it can just annihilate Milotic so I've had to play around it really carefully not to lose too many mons vs it.

Now I wanna talk a bit about the drops, ignoring Kingdra tho.



Mandi is so fire, for the short time I've used it I've been playing with a Taunt + Toxic set and it bops so much stuff it's insane. First time ever using a mon that can 1v1 Milotic and CurseLax with ease. Obviously there's the Defog set but I haven't built w/ Defog Mandi yet. For the time being I'm using phys def because w/ foul play it's easier to handle certain setup sweepers like Bruxish, Feraligatr, Durant even tho it can still bop me and still haven't seen the sp def set that appealing in the current meta yet but we'll see.



This bad boy is also fun to use, having a water type that outspeeds and can kill mons like Hoopa, Nidoqueen and Decidueye is amazing, but it really hurts using your water type slot on this instead of the face of RU, Milotic, who unlike toise has a decent recovery move unless you wanna roll w/ rest toise lmao. Nonetheless still a fun mon to use cause of the offensive coverage it can run, been running stab + aura sphere, dark pulse and rapid spin, and have seen people run Ice Beam to nail Chestnaught most likely even tho I haven't seen that mon in years.

Also addressing the above discussion, Durant handling fat doesn't make it healthy for the tier, it just shows how fucking good it is in general.
A lot of people would read the above paragraph and think, "if we ban durant and other threats appear broken we'll ban them," but the fact is we won't. If we ban Durant and it makes other bulky Pokemon that much better, no one will do anything.
I really don't see where you are getting this idea, it's not as if USM RU has had previous incidents where a defensive pokemon was so centralizing it required a suspect and it wasn't given one, this tier has nothing but crazy good offensive mons that take priority cause they just break everything in front of them, and you can't really use previous generations as an example cause mons like Alomomola and Mega Steelix were suspect tested last gen, showing fat passive mons can be suspected as well.

All in all I am a Durant hater and want this mon out as soon as possible. pce
 

avocado

If you're waiting all your life, you won't ever go
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
#16
I really don't see where you are getting this idea, it's not as if USM RU has had previous incidents where a defensive pokemon was so centralizing it required a suspect and it wasn't given one, this tier has nothing but crazy good offensive mons that take priority cause they just break everything in front of them, and you can't really use previous generations as an example cause mons like Alomomola and Mega Steelix were suspect tested last gen, showing fat passive mons can be suspected as well.

All in all I am a Durant hater and want this mon out as soon as possible. pce
A defensive mon doesn't have to so centralizing or require a suspect test to have a negative impact on the tier. Also depending on who you ask cress and milotic are insanely centralizing. The reason bewear/machamp/pangoro/honchkrow aren't used is practically all because cresselia manages to run a bit of speed while still retaining insane bulk and psychic/moonblast to handle all of them. It's dumb imo and precisely centralizing in that sense.

Alomomola suspect test came very late anyway and I wasn't around when mlix dropped so I don't know how that was handled, but mlix in general (from playing with it this gen + theorymonning oras) doesn't feel like it'd be as "defensively overwhelming" as cress and milo are. You don't just add mlix and 5-10 different Pokemon cease to be problems, like with cress and milo.
 

Artoria

i get the bag like the north face
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
#17
A defensive mon doesn't have to so centralizing or require a suspect test to have a negative impact on the tier. Also depending on who you ask cress and milotic are insanely centralizing. The reason bewear/machamp/pangoro/honchkrow aren't used is practically all because cresselia manages to run a bit of speed while still retaining insane bulk and psychic/moonblast to handle all of them. It's dumb imo and precisely centralizing in that sense.

Alomomola suspect test came very late anyway and I wasn't around when mlix dropped so I don't know how that was handled, but mlix in general (from playing with it this gen + theorymonning oras) doesn't feel like it'd be as "defensively overwhelming" as cress and milo are. You don't just add mlix and 5-10 different Pokemon cease to be problems, like with cress and milo.
so if a defensive mon doesn't have to have those qualities you mentioned to have a negative impact, then why are you pushing this narrative that those mons are the problem and not durant?

your posts in this thread have basically said that durant keeps in check bulky mons that would be overwhelming otherwise, but aside from the examples that evi posted above in dealing with them offensively, they're both absurdly susceptible to status, especially cresselia - and toxic isn't hard to find on a lot of teams because a lot of the sr setters in the tier don't really lose out on a lot in running it. if your team heavily struggles to deal with milotic and cress without durant then that's really more of an issue in the teambuilder than anything else. and even if cress beats those mons you mentioned (not that it always can ideally), it definitely doesn't make it to a point where they're unviable. sd z double edge bewear is still a solid wincon, machamp and cb pangoro are not really the easiest things to switch into, and the current state of the meta has been more kind to honchkrow than it was before. hell it checking them isnt even a bad thing, i mean are you really complaining that a psychic type is beating a fighting type?

there are some other things wrong with what you've posted in the thread as well. for one, you can't just brush aside hp fire as a move on cress, something that is used to combat durant (and to a lesser extent, megalix and esca), and then say that it has no way of bypassing durant. quite frankly hp fire is its best option right now because the other options you have aren't nearly as worth as being able to nail it. the support options like lunar dance and twave are nice and all but compared to hpfire, they're pretty situational, and it's way more beneficial to fuck up durant and get chip on the other steels than that. you also really can't put dd flygon on the same level as hone claws durant lol, despite the difference in bulk there aren't as many opportunities for flygon to set up a boost as there are with durant because a) the meta has arguably become more offensive and b) flygon just doesn't naturally force out as many things as durant that'll let it to actually safely get a boost. what's flygon even setting up on reliably that isn't locked into a non-optimal move? gligar maybe, but they almost always run toxic which obviously isn't optimal for a sweeper, and if you're running dragonium to circumvent that then congrats, you lose 1v1 against megalix. on the other hand, not only does durant's immediate power let it force out a larger number of pokemon, figuring out its set on team preview isn't the easiest thing to do because scarf, band, and hone claws are all meta defining in their own right and you'll be punished if you guess wrong.

i understand that you have a distaste for oras ru, and it definitely isn't an uncommon opinion, but i really doubt that usum ru will reach that state with durant gone. the defensive playstyles don't even function the same was as they did in oras, like common fat cores aren't anywhere near as polarizing as regimola was. the introduction of z moves make it easier to break through fat teams, and there are a good amount of pokemon that can make use of that. i don't think that the tier will benefit exactly if mola drops in the future, but it won't have the same effect it had in oras.

for what its worth, i dont believe durant is as unhealthy for the tier as things like heracross were, and i don't think that more offensive playstyles being on the same level as balance as arifeen said is necessarily a bad thing (unless im reading him wrong), but i think durant is just something thats tricky as fuck to play around regardless of what playstyle you use, and it doesn't have the same kind of crippling flaws that hold it back like other nukes such as moltres and yanmega. having a multitude of viable sets is something that's usually more scary on paper than practice, but that isn't the case with the ant.

e: actually the more i think about it, ru actually was more or less geared towards a defensive meta last year when everyone and their mother used shake stall and registeel in general. if anything the tier has been on the right track since then (aside from banning reuniclus which was one of the best ways to combat them but whatever). i don't think that banning durant will be the reason that the tier will go to that state if it somehow happens though, because again there's a lot of breakers to choose from, enough to a point where it's not overbearing to prep for the splashable defensive mons.
 
Last edited:
#18
What I don't understand is how banning Durant would make Milotic or Cresselia overbearing. Milotic doesn't take a +1 Z-Superpower, but it's not like Milotic gives Durant free turns and it can take neutral hits from it pretty easily. Cresselia runs HP Fire so Durant can't set up on that either, and with that in mind, Durant can't switch into either safely. Durant just breaks everything, lol, but if you're arguing that we need a powerful breaker like Durant to keep defensive teams / Pokemon in check, then we already have Pokemon that do this. SD Feraligatr, SD Virizion, SubNP Hoopa, CM Meloetta and more put a lot of pressure on defensive stuff and are all quite viable without being as impossible to deal with across the board as Durant. With some of the arguments you've been making, it seems more like you think Milotic and Cresselia are broken currently more so than Durant is healthy.

I don't think Milotic or Cresselia are unhealthy at all. Milotic and Cresselia will usually have to heal up after taking an attack from the offensive stuff they switch into, which is a problem for Cresselia because it can only heal up 8 times (which is actually super significant in the long run), but it also means that they're not actually getting opportunities to do much. They are both vulnerable to Toxic unless Milotic runs Refresh, which means it isn't running Toxic. Milotic isn't as passive as Cresselia, but it's passive nonetheless, so it's not like it can punish switch-ins all too well, especially when it'll be clicking Recover half the time. Compare this to Mega Steelix last gen, which blanket checked half the tier while also at least 2HKOing almost everything in the tier with its STABs, or Alomomola, which was so hard to take advantage of without a stallbreaker that threatened the whole team because it could simply rely on Regenerator and Leftovers for recovery most of the time while passing Wishes to the whole team. I completely disagree with these two being broken and I seriously doubt Durant being banned would change much about these two's affect on the tier.

Anyway, I'd like to talk a bit about Kingdra. I tried out a few of its sets (Choice Specs, Life Orb Rain Dance, Critdra). Choice Specs has performed the best by far and I think it can actually have merits outside of Rain teams for the strong special Dragon nuke. Rain is where Kingdra really shines though, as it can break most Water resists and bulky SpD Pokemon with its Rain boosted Hydro Pumps. Rain as a playstyle finally has a strong and fast abuser, so I expect it to see some more use now, especially with Sun, Registeel, and Gigalith seeing a lot less usage than they did when Kingdra was previously in the tier. Life Orb Kingdra isn't as good since its weaker and takes recoil, but if you want a fast Rain sweeper without running a team dedicated to Rain then I guess it's okay lol. Critdra just wasn't that good. It can do some awesome things like OHKOing Milotic, but it's reliant on the boost to do much damage and it's slow. Even if you have Agility on the set, it's unlikely that you'll be able to get off both Agility and Focus Energy. This set might perform better on a Webs or Screens team.
 
#19
The reason bewear/machamp/pangoro/honchkrow aren't used is practically all because cresselia manages to run a bit of speed while still retaining insane bulk and psychic/moonblast to handle all of them. It's dumb imo and precisely centralizing in that sense.
A metagame stacked with a bunch of offensive threats absolutely needs a couple of centralizing defensive pokemon to keep them at check. This only becomes a problem when said defensive pokemon are just too hard to take advantage of and makes too much of the metagame straight up unviable, which is not the case here.
All of the mons mentioned in that example are completely viable -albeit needing a bit of support- since cress really is not the hardest thing in the world to take advantage of.
Pokemon has always been about taking advantage of current trends and metagame centralizing pokemon that will be encountered in a majority of teams. If you run a pokemon that struggles with cress it stands to good reason that you should add support to weaken/remove it and advance your gameplan. As long as that is doable within reason(not being forced to run otherwise suboptimal picks just to beat a certain defensive threat), then i absolutely do not see the issue.
 
Last edited:

avocado

If you're waiting all your life, you won't ever go
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
#20
I think the base issue here is that the majority (at least, from this thread) disagree with the standards I personally have for what makes a Pokemon unhealthy. To me Milotic and Cress are unhealthy because they can be very easy to fit on a lot of teams and their presence discourages too many pokemon. Those two facts alone (easy to use+reliable/check a lot of threats in 1 spot) make them unhealthy imo. We're going deeper though into shit like tiering philosophy and whatnot so it's kind of a tangent, but in general we're being too reserved under the excuse of "we don't have to use unconventional methods to deal with said Pokemon so it's not an issue" which is a lazy outlook on things.
 
#21
Those two facts alone (easy to use+reliable/check a lot of threats in 1 spot) make them unhealthy imo.
so are we just going to pretend that this is literally not the best way to describe Durant right now? a couple of people earlier in this thread did a good job describing how easy it is to fit in any offense team without any opportunity cost, it couldn't get any easier to use it, its z set has literally almost perfect coverage if not straight up perfect with a nuking move that sends some defensive mons to their death from a non stab non super effective move (a bug steel ohkoing a fat water with a fighting move is just absurd to me). and if you really don't wanna waste ur z move on it, it's not even a problem just use choice band (or choice scarf but meh) and smash defensive cores as long as u don't miss, and if u still don't wanna miss just literally run life orb hone claws u can calc it and notice u just need a bit more chip and u take recoil as a price for having ur z move elsewhere, u still fuck up the same mons, not to mention that if its not ur z user then its likely the combination of Durant + the z user will overwhelm any fat in existence.
now to move on to the check a lot of threats part: you have a Durant on ur team and u instantly "check" offense and bulky teams as a playstyle, forcing the usage of faster hp fire mons or fire coverage mons that CANNOT switch in. hell u can even slap a blanket mon that literally fucks over all the scarfers + salazzle that are used to revenge Durant.

so yes, Durant is very much easy to use, very reliable to net several kills in each battle as long as u click ur z move, and you check a lot of threats, ranging from defensive to offensive ones. that's why it's unhealthy by avocado standards and should be banned.