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Announcement np: SM OU Suspect Process, Round 1 - Digital Love - Genesect is now banned

Discussion in 'SM OverUsed' started by Finchinator, Dec 24, 2016.

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  1. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT'S FINK DUMBASS
    is a Tiering Contributor

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    [​IMG]
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    Hey everyone, the OU tiering council has decided to test Genesect.

    Genesect has been one of the most dominant Pokemon in the Overused metagame throughout its time in the tier, dating back to generation five. Each of the past two generations, Genesect found itself getting banned to Ubers (XY and BW). Therefore, it is no surprise that Genesect is seen as one of the most controversial, potentially banworthy Pokemon in the tier.

    Genesect is seen as one of the most unique Pokemon in the history of the tier. It has one of the most versatile offensive movepools in the game while it has a stat spread that takes advantage of that to the fullest. Additionally, Genesect has the ability Download, which gives it an Attack or Special Attack boost depending on the defenses of the opponent. All in all, Genesect is certainly one of the most threatening Pokemon in the tier and defensive counterplay to it is limited.

    Upon the start of generation seven, Genesect immediately emerged as a common presence and a force to be reckon with. With various sets and a plethora of potential moves at its disposal, Genesect was not only unpredictable, but also effective across the board. In the current metagame, the hardest Genesect variant to counter is probably mixed Life Orb with four attacks. Generally speaking, it can run just about whatever coverage it wants (Bug Buzz, Iron Head, Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, Ice Beam, Hidden Power Ground, U-turn, etc.) and it poses a threat to almost the whole tier and most full teams depending upon the coverage moves Genesect uses. Genesect also can run effective Expert Belt, Choice Band, Choice Scarf, Douse Drive, and sweeping sets that have seen use to varying extents over the first month of SM. Expert Belt and Choice Band variants are also seen as controversial and overwhelmingly powerful in the eyes of some, but Choice Scarf variants are generally regarded as solid revenge killers and, therefore, shouldn't be the main focus of discussion.

    Due to the fact that Genesect has been in the Overused metagame for parts of three different generations and it was proven as banworthy in the previous two stints it had in the tier, the Overused tiering council believes it is in the tier's best interest to suspect Genesect in the current metagame as there is a legitimate prospect of it being broken in the current metagame as it has been in the past.

    For this round we are going to have two alternative ways to qualify for voting:
    1. Laddering: you will need to achieve a COIL rating of 2700 (or more) in a /!\ game limit of 70 games /!\ on the OU Suspect Test Ladder (in which Genesect is banned), that will be implemented very soon.
    2. Suspect Tours: check McMeghan's thread.

    The suspect test will last for approximately 2 weeks and will end on January 7th.

    Use this thread to discuss the suspect and your thoughts on the suspect metagame. If you have any questions, then feel free to contact blunder, boudouche, CrashinBoomBang, Finchinator, M Dragon, PDC, and/or TDK through a PM. These threads tend to get derailed so please make extra effort to stay on topic. Future suspects need not be discussed in this thread.

    Keep in mind that, as usual, it's going to be up to the playerbase to decide the outcome of this test. Good luck and have fun laddering!

    /!\ Rules for posting in this thread /!\
    • No one liners nor uninformed posts;
    • No discussion on other potential suspects;
    • No discussion on the suspect process;
    • You are required to make respectful posts;
    • You are required to read this thread before posting.

    Failing to follow these simple guidelines will result into your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.

    /!\ NOTICE /!\ OU will not be tolerating any form of voting manipulation. Any attempt to manipulate votes can result in an infraction, loss of eligibility to vote in the current test, and loss of the Tiering Contributor badge. While we won't necessarily enforce super strict punishment, this won't be tolerated and will be handled accordingly. Voting manipulation can simply be described as attempting to get people to vote a way on the test in inappropriate manners. Bribing with teams to vote a certain way, directly messaging people to vote a certain way, publicly announcing "vote this way" all fall under voting manipulation. If you have any further questions feel free to shoot TDK a PM.

    Antar's edit: as with the previous OU tests, the B value for this test is 17.0. To figure out how many battles you will need to have in order to achieve reqs, first determine your GXE (shown on the ladder and when you type /rating) and plug that into the following formula:

    N=17.0/log2(40*GXE/2700)

    (Google calculator is awesome for this kind of thing).

    Here are some sample values:
    Code:
    GXE N
    100 30
    90 41
    85 52
    80 70
    75 112
    70 324
    Tagging The Immortal so that this can be implemented on PS - thank you!
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2016
  2. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT'S FINK DUMBASS
    is a Tiering Contributor

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    Do note that this thread will not be open for the next forty-eight hours so that everyone can formulate opinions on Genesect (and enjoy their holidays)!
  3. TDK

    TDK the lights of the stars
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a defending World Cup of Pokemon champion
    OU Leader

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    [​IMG] Live Suspect Tournaments [​IMG]

    Date: Sunday January 1st
    Time: 4 PM EST (-5)
    Host: Prague Kick
    Winner: Specterito
    Gained Reqs: Hairy Toenail, Specterito, Tricking

    Date: Friday January 6th
    Time: 6 PM EST (-5)
    Host: rozes
    Winner: Omfuga
    Gained Reqs: Empo, Omfuga, Specterito

    Both suspect tournaments will adopt the suspect ladder where Genesect is banned.

    - 64 man tournament, only the Top 2 (Finals) players get reqs.
    - 96 man tournament, only the Top 3 (Finals) players get reqs.
    - 128 man tournament, only the Top 4 (Semi-Finals) players get reqs.
    - 192 man tournament, only the Top 6 (Semi-Finals) players get reqs.
    - 256 man tournament, only the Top 8 (Quarter-Finals) players get reqs.

    Anyway, enjoy posting :toast:
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2017
  4. ABR

    ABR
    is a Tiering Contributor

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    Genesect really is unlike any other pokemon OU has experienced. It contains a certain versatility and unpredictability that is quite outstanding. It can run Scarf, Band, Specs, Life Orb, and Expert belt, while also having access to moves such as U-turn, Iron Head, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, Ice beam, and more. The ability to utilize so many different options makes switching into this pokemon very difficult at times, and you would probably be accurate in saying that there are no 100% full counters to Genesect. Now, while Genesect has amazing versatility and the theoretical ability to kill all of its primary switchins with the appropriate coverage move, this doesn't necessarily make it ban-worthy. If you look at the counterplay that exists for Genesect instead of the raw counters, you'll see that beating it in practice isn't as difficult as it may seem on paper. Additionally, it is crucial to consider the metagame at large and how a ban would affect it when voting in a suspect test. Considering the aforementioned notions, I will be voting Do Not Ban.

    Genesect may have no perfect switchins, but it can definitely be beaten in a reasonable way. Firstly, there are many pokemon that can more often than not switch in safely. Pokemon such as Heatran, Marowak-A, Toxapex, and Mantine can switch into all sets besides mixed hpground/tbolt ones. Even something like an Amoonguss comes into and scouts a choiced set handily, and if you figure out its CB then you can use Lando-T as a switchin for example. In general, choiced sets really aren't broken in the slightest as Genesect locked into anything can be abused quite easily. Even U-turn, which many people claim as overwhelming, isn't risk free. If the pokemon that Gene is in vs (let's say Keldeo) isn't bug weak then the pokemon coming into Keld after a U-turn still has to take a hit and Keld wont take that much in the process. Additionally, there are the prevalent Rocky Helmet Ground types, as well as Regen mons like Torn-T that don't mind U-turn at all. So, in terms of pure defensive counterplay, mixed sets with hpground/tbolt are probably the hardest to beat. There is, however, an important tradeoff involved in using such a Genesect set. When Gene is forced to drop a Scarf and even Espeed, it becomes increasingly easier to revenge kill and/or abuse offensively. Considering there's Life Orb recoil and a -def/spdef nature, grouped with a lack of great raw speed, Genesect is beaten by myriad offensive pokemon - examples include Tapu Koko, Greninja, Pheromosa, and the Zards. Another method of beating Gene, which is certainly underutilized at the moment, is that of trapping. In fact, all of Magnet Pull, Pursuit, and Arena Trap can potentially trap the right Gene set. Magnezone traps any choiced Genesect, and can also use scarf to beat mixed ones. Band TTar lives non-downloaded U-turns and Weavile can also trap a slower set. Lastly, CB Dugtrio can pick off a slower Gene that has taken very minor prior damage. So, despite the lack of pure hard counters, there are still many viable countermeasures to Genesect.

    From a sort of philosophical standpoint, it is important to assess what we really want from our tiers. Given that this is a new generation for OU and for Smogon as a whole, perhaps we can tweak our understanding of ideal tiering. If you go by the standard current banning philosophy (that I and many others took part in during ORAS), then Genesect can potentially be deemed broken as it is versatile + lacks real counters, or "can beat all styles". However, we have to ask ourselves if banning Genesect improves the metagame, which is the reason we have this tiering in the first place. I, for one, believe that Genesect's influence on the metagame is indeed healthy and should be preserved at all costs. What Genesect does is force a certain creativity and activeness that we would lose with its ban. The mere fact that there are no 100% safe counters means that people need to be creative to beat things, instead of just trying to wall everything. When you have a metagame that revolves around only hard countering things, it becomes increasingly stale and matchup based. With Genesect allowed, and thus the pressure to be more unorthodox or active in beating certain pokemon like Gene, the tier is able to flourish with creativity. One can view this as overcentralization, but the degree to which Gene influences the tier seems less like a hindering force and more like a healthy stimulant.

    Going forward, I hope that the OU community is brave enough to experience a metagame where we don't ban pokemon just because they're tough to switch into. There are more factors at play here, and while it may seem difficult to get through at first, it'll be worth it in the end.
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2016
  5. allan leblanc

    allan leblanc

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    Even genesect has troubles against fire types(without water techno blast),and even sometimes download is useless, its very hard to deal with it:
    -rock polish/shift gear variants can sweep easily with the right coverage(bolt beam;blaze kick;flamethrower;techno blast;...)
    -with a choice scarf, it can easily clean(physical and special scarf are both good).
    -Choice band genesect is also a thing, thanks to extreme speed.
    -Mixed life orb and expert belt are viable and it can inflict huge damage, with download boost.
    Every genesect's sets are good, and its impossible to have an answer to every genesect's sets at once.
    Magnezone scarf+its chekcs are outsped by rock polish/shift gear/scarf variants.
    Mega Venusaur cant counter it properly if it is weakened
    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Genesect Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 226-266 (62.2 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock(with download boost).
    Chansey loses against physical variants...
    dugtrio is useless against scarf genesect, it can u-turn out.
    ...

    Genesect is too strong due to its versatility,I support a ban.
  6. Seth_

    Seth_

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    Honestly, I am very average player, but banded genesect is so stupid for offence...

    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-502982772

    Yeah, genesect can be walled but is so huge nonsense for any offensive team. It has great set up moves, it has good speed tier, it has broken ability it has like ten milion sets, including douse-genesect which beats it's ususal counters, it has great typing (arguably one of best typing in game).

    Like it's too good to not run it on a team! Literally all my teams had genesect, each one with different set. It's centralizing.

    Maybe that isn't too bad. I don't know and I probably won't vote either because no time for things like that (and no more love for pokemon showdown)
    KaioNabuco likes this.
  7. Duck Chris

    Duck Chris formerly ChrisTehAwesome

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    An important factor in beating Genesect is hazard control. A grounded pokemon who likes to switch in and out a lot and does not resist stealth rock is very vulnerable to both rocks and spikes. Spikes stacking is a reasonably effective strategy to deal with volt switch and u-turn teams, and has been discussed also in the past.

    This generation, Genesect's scarf set got worse. I would argue that the dangers of locking Genesect into the wrong scarfed move (besides U-turn) are heightened with strong set up sweepers such as Zygarde, hard hitters such as Tapu Bulu, and other versatile attackers such as Hoopa-Unbound (not to mention stronger Dugtrio and Water Shuriken to revenge kill). Because of these, Genesect's scarf set does not function overly well as a revenge killer, which was one of the key reasons it was banned in BW2.

    Another key way to defeat Genesect is by scouting the set, as ABR discussed above. In addition to that discussion, it is important to note that Genesect with Blaze Kick or Extremespeed (most choice band sets) must be shiny with a hasty nature, and as far as I know other nature Genesects cannot be shiny. This provides valuable information as when you see a shiny genesect you know it's either banded, LO Espeed, or Choice Scarf Espeed (lol). EDIT: yes you can use this as a regular set with hasty nature, but you still lose out, and generally it won't be as effective as just a pure Ebelt set, which still lures in stuff

    The only place where I have found Genesect to be particularly strong in comparison to other pokémon in the metagame is in the lead position. Lead Genesect threatens Landorus-t, fairy types, Garchomp, and other common leads, forcing them to switch out and usually giving an advantage through U-turn. I would argue that this can be mitigated through faster pokemon, things that don't mind any of Genesect's moves (such as Spdef Hippowdon or any of the defensive counters mentioned before), or smart switching.

    Through these strategies Genesect can be dealt with in a way that doesn't overly restrict teambuilding and as such I feel like it is not deserving of a ban. Many teams are already prepared to deal with genesect through smart play and good cores.

    How has everyone else been finding Genesect in this meta?
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2016
  8. Seth_

    Seth_

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    Whelp, one great player - blunder, ran shiny Ebelt genesect as lure. It's viable.

    And there goes argument about scouting genesect sets. :(
  9. blarghlfarghl

    blarghlfarghl

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    ABR said himself that there are variants that have the potential of beating the "designated gene check." I also believe that if you are forced to run a designated check for one mon, then it's unhealthy for the metagame. The rest of his argument about counterplay goes on to talk about how to beat certain variants, but you need to scout its set first before trying to use this niche counterplay he details. I.e. if it uses ice beam you can't just assume it's scarf and try to trap it with your ttars or weavile as ABR suggested. Furthermore, I don't think it's very reasonable to say that since faster offensive mons exist, they counter gene. Firstly, gene most commonly runs scarf, and even if you went out of your way to scarf your offensive mons and make, say scarf hp fire pheromosa, gene gets espeed.

    Another thing i forgot to mention. Scouting often constitutes switching/pivoting and if they play offensively you're at risk of losing a mon for relatively no reason. Even if you are successful in scouting its set, you might need to let your mons get chipped just for the info. Unpredictability can be a deciding factor in some games, and similar to Hoopa, gene can run many variants. However, unlike Hoopa, gene is faster and can accumulate momentum


    Gene cannot be compared to other wallbreakers in ou like kyub or Hoopa because these mons sap momentum in exchange for strong hits on something. Gene is capable of hitting almost every mon in the meta supereffectively and can gain momentum with uturn.

    Edit: almost forgot to say (since my opinion should be glaringly obvious considering the rest of the post) Ban Gene
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2016
  10. MaceMaster

    MaceMaster

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    U-Turn: Power 70 Accuracy 100

    User switches out after damaging the target.

    U-Turn is a great move, nearly standing on equal footing with the legendary Scald and Knock Off. Prior to this generation, however, it never got an opportunity to shine in OU. Scizor was the only OU bug type that could effectively utilize it and is slow. Landorus-T and Tornadus-T often ran it too, but due to lack of STAB, it was weak. Mega Beedrill also deserves a mention but isn’t even OU and was very frail (RIP Beedrillite). With this generation however, we got 2 new users of it: Genesect (unbanned from Ubers) and Pheromosa (new UB).

    Genesect has none of the flaws of any other U-Turner. In addition, it boasts a large number of viable sets, some being able to tear apart offensive teams while others have next to no switch-ins. Still dubious? Then name a switch-in. Good luck. (Douse Drive/HP Ground beats the few that probably come to mind) One might argue that since you only get 4 moveslots, you’re Genesect will get walled by something. Absolutely true as this is, your opponent doesn’t know what these 4 moves are until they’ve been revealed, making a switch into Toxapex, for example, a risky endeavor.

    As I was saying at the beginning, one of the biggest sellers for Genesect is U-Turn access. As was said before, having 4 moveslots isn’t ideal, but U-Turn helps out loads. Even if you’re opponent knows that you’re not carrying Thunderbolt, pokemon like Toxapex still hate switching in on Genesect because you lose so much momentum in the process by giving your opponent a prediction-free switch into their Toxapex counter. Another thing that makes U-Turn all the more useful is Genesect’s ability to force switches. Due to it’s ability to threaten a massive majority of the metagame, you’re usually forced to switch when it comes in. By clicking U-Turn, Genesect allows dangerous wallbreakers like Hoopa and Tapu Lele to come in for free and get a kill pretty much guaranteed. Voting ban.

    tldr: U-Turn, typing, stats, coverage and overall diversity make it a terrifying pokemon with no true switch-ins.
  11. Ajwf

    Ajwf

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    People and their fear of bugs...

    The reason Gene can't be compared to other wallbreakers is because Gene isn't a wallbreaker and sucks at wallbreaking.

    I say this from a stall perspective only: Gene isn't a threat. He's pretty annoying with U-turn shenanigans and all but that's about it. Yeah he's rather unique in being a U-turner with a good special movepool but I don't think there's anything blatantly wrong with him especially against stall. As for sets, that's like 50% of Gene's power is his diversity (the other being his ability to Uturn with all these sets). I don't have any really long-winded opinion other than this really isn't a case where you can say "Yeah but stall can't counter it" because we can... Gene's better vs squishy, fast teams than the bulk machines in stall.

    I mean my opinion's probably not terribly valid because like hell am I wasting my break laddering for this shit but I don't think there's any need for a ban here.
  12. Zentrius

    Zentrius

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    the thing that makes Genesect so powerful to me is that the fact that the 4MSS doesnt really apply to it because of the fact that it can run absolutely insane coverage to wreck its checks, and gain momentum by clicking u-turn on the mons that check you because you are not running that move to crush that specific threat. you can comfortably run a scarf set with U-Turn + 3 coverage moves; if ur running Boltbeam + Bug Buzz, just click u-turn into the uncoming fire type switch and go to dugtrio/your check of choice, if you're running lure sets with ground coverage for pesky fire types and that makes you walled to any mon, just click u-turn and bring out a proper check for that mon. i dont think that theres a ridiculously overpowered genesect set in terms of sheer power (outside of maybe band?), but the fact that this thing can afford to run so many moves without any repercussion thanks to u-turn is ridiculous in itself. one simple move change completely changes the mons that are used to check this thing. sets without thunderbolt are walled by mantine/pelipper, sets without hp ground are walled by fire types in general, sets without fire coverage are walled by steel types not weak to tbolt, and so on. on top of that, it can effectively run physical and EB sets as well, so to completely wall genesect as a whole its like almost impossible to achieve in a single slot. for this reason alone im firmly ban.
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2016
  13. psVoltage

    psVoltage formerly Volty

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    Not everyone uses stall? You cant say "He doesn't break walls so he isn't threatening warranting no ban" you even said it yourself your opinion on it isnt terribly valid. Genesect may not break walls by itself but you will never pin it down, and paired with another pokemon it has the potential to break stall by just merely getting something like a tapu lele in.
    blarghlfarghl likes this.
  14. Ajwf

    Ajwf

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    Reading is a skill which we invest many years into, dear psVoltage. I think it was quite clear I referred to genesect only from the standpoint of stall. Good user blarghfarghl's post was made to seem like Genesect himself is a wallbreaker, which unfortunately is a wronghood which cannot even be considered 'misconceived'. Genesect is in fact nowhere close to a wallbreaker. What it brings in after isn't of great importance, unless you claim that Landorus-T or any other Uturner is broken based on the merit of what their switch brings in.
    A, totoTavros, Chaoswalker and 2 others like this.
  15. blarghlfarghl

    blarghlfarghl

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    what people don't seem to understand isthat you have a full team of 5 more mons behind genesect. If it doesn't singlehandedly beat a whole playstyle that doesn't mean it can't still be broken. Just use gene with any stallbreaker. The purpose of voltturn and momentum is to get in the threats anyway, and gene does the job better than anything else in the meta.
  16. Twilightphoenix10

    Twilightphoenix10

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    Genesects versatility and access to u-turn are what make it a threat. It gains momenturm for your team or it can punch holes in the opposing team before switching out to a check. It can't be trapped due to U-turn so that makes Dugtrio and Magnazone invalid. It only takes super effective damage from fire, which isn't a very common typeing this gen and it can counter those with hp ground/douse drive. There are no safe switch ins and no real counters. Can it be walled? of course it can, but only after you know what set its running and even then its not guranteed that you will have one of a handfull of walls that can counter/wall it. Celesteela could probably do the job, but only if it isn't running thunderbolt, blaze kick, flamethrower, hp fire, hp electric, etc... which is highly unlikely that it doesn't have at least one of those. Not to mention the remaining 5 team mates it has that have to be delt with that can cover any of its weakness or flaws. If you have to run a check for a specific mon on every team you make or resort to a specific playstyle just to counter one mon that is so predomenant then that mon (Genesect) is too over centralizing and very unhealthy for the meta. The same reason for Banning Ageslash works for Genesect; It's overcentralizing, plays mind games, and can be played offensivly or to a lesser extent defensivly since it can safely switch in on just about everything baring fire, ghost, ground, dark, and rock all of which deal neutral and even with stab can't K.O. it (barring fire) without a good deal of previous damage. I would vote to ban it, but I'm not high enough rank and I don't really have much time to spare for increasing my rank right now, but my point remains valid (the underlined portion).

    arguing to keep it unbanned just because your favored playstyle works against it or because you know a trick or two to dealing with it is not a valid reason to keep it in the meta when it threatens the vast majority of the meta and overcentralizes it. Sorry if thats on the rude side, but its more of a counter argument if anything and is not meant to be taken as offensive or an attack in anyway. I am of the opinion that those types of arguments are not valid arguments that is all and nothing more.
    KaioNabuco and psVoltage like this.
  17. ninamori

    ninamori

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    I hope no one overlooks this point. Sure, we can debate for weeks about whether genesect is broken or not and there is probably no objectively correct answer. However, genesect does make the metagame more creative and interesting and that is what I will be basing my vote on. I hope everyone else voting will take a moment to consider the future of the metagame rather than 'this bug is really good we should ban it'.
  18. Twilightphoenix10

    Twilightphoenix10

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    no one is arguing that it isn't really good; and sure it does generate a certain amount of creativity, but the fact of the matter is that it is broken. There is difference between being really good and being broken. If something is broken it is inherently unhealthy for the meta at large, this is true for anything ranging from pokemon to card games. and when soemthing is broken it usually gets banned. The negatives Genesect brings to the game far out weigh the positives. in addition creativity can truly flourish if it is banned because as it stands the only creative teams being made are those focused on countering it; anything that isn't designed around that concept will get crushed by a team that has genesect on it unless the player using genesect has no idea what they are doing.
  19. Omfuga

    Omfuga IT'S FINK DUMBASS
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

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    All the checks/ "ways to handle genesect" abr listed are false. some hp ground/tbolt life orb set or even just plain choice specs really has no reliable switch ins. You cannot "just scout" specs genesect with amoonguss unless u want to die. I get that genesect can be checked offensively, however something with literally 0 solid defensive answers and a good speed tier/defenses/typing is not okay to just "check offensively" (especially with options like u-turn or espeed).


    ?? are u missing the irony here


    this mon is broken, and as I am a tournament player who has played in many tournament games in tournament, I will be voting ban on genesect
    badabing, Rewer, A and 83 others like this.
  20. LucarioOfLegends

    LucarioOfLegends

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    I mostly agree with the pro-ban concensus, because of its absurd amount of coverage and U-turning abilities. I think its defensive abilities are also overlooked in this matter as well, as it is also what makes it broken. Not only does it have possibly the best defensive typing in the tier, giving it only a quad fire weakness, but also it has passable 71/95/95 defenses. This allows it to tank hits, gives it a neutrality to rocks, and certain pokemon are outright walled by it. I think what gets me though is probably the initial argument with Pheromosa, its ability to U-turn out of any unfavorable situation. This is specifically even more so with a scarf, as it outspeed every fire check with this. It, most times, can outspeed any threats to it, U-turn out, and switch into a teammate that checks the threat. So, if I could vote, I would vote for a ban on this monstrocity for the tier.
  21. Expert_Occultist

    Expert_Occultist

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    I hope this doesn't come off as shit posting or an argument that doesn't go anywhere but a few people are using the argument of "if I have to run something specifically to deal with this mon then it must be broken." If this is your argument, what are you running to handle Gene that can't be used to handle other mons? Are you forced to run otherwise unviable mons to deal with Gene? In my experience the answer to the second question is "no." This isn't like Hoopa-U where you have to run Mandibuzz or something to even have a chance to switch in. The answers to Genesect are all perfectly viable in OU. To answer the first question lets look at some common Gene answers. Celesteela, Heatran, Alowak, Magearna, Fini, M-Venu, any Zard, and Toxapex can all either switch in or at least provide an answer to Gene depending on the set and what move Gene is locked in to (hell, some even counter in the case of Alowak, heatran, and Tox). These mons are also useful at handling other mons. So I ask again, what mons are people using to SPECIFICALLY handle Gene?

    tldr; I'm not saying Gene isn't versatile and very strong but needing to use mons specifically to handle it sounds like a bunch of bunk.
    DRAGONFLYING, JXDK and SarahPhoenix like this.
  22. Sergeant Spooky

    Sergeant Spooky

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    I kind of want to know exactly how gene makes the meta "creative and interesting" because I have literally zero idea what this could mean and there's no information here that could lead me to any specific conclusion. I mean like, did Aegislash make the meta "creative and interesting" because Protective Pads was a viable item or something? "Oh you're running Protective Pads t-tar, that's really creative and interesting."

    I can buy that gene promotes skillful play or something but I don't see why I would need to get "creative" when handling gene. It doesn't have many hard counters but it has a number of good checks that fit easily onto teams.

    Also, if arguments like these derive from a fear of SM OU becoming a stally jankfest like ORAS... so long as there's not some sort of blanket ban on Z-moves, I can assure you that's not gonna happen.
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  23. mulgokizary

    mulgokizary

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2016
    Messages:
    27
    Just some scattered thoughts, don't really feel like formatting them into a concise argument, but here are some thoughts about Genesect I've had after playing close to 500 games in S&M:

    Rock Polish Genesect
    God damn, does using this thing feel like a cheat code. Seriously. There are hundreds of replays of this thing sweeping offensive teams incredibly easily with Flame/Bolt/Beam, WaterBlast/Bolt/Flame, or even HP Ground/Bolt/Flame combinations, and the set itself is just mix-and-match based off of what your team can weaken before Gene comes in. The sheer power of Genesect's free Choice Specs boost from download combined with a life orb allow it to shred through teams without a chansey like a hot knife through butter... not to mention that Gene forces so many switches that it becomes trivial to set up RP at 100% or 88% HP. If any set is banworthy it's this one.

    LO 4ATK/Water Techno Blast/Ebelt Whatever
    Kind of like a poor man's RP gene, I think this set is strictly inferior most of the time, but its ability to carry, say, ESpeed to force out a Pheromosa without Psychic Terrain up can glue teams together effectively. This thing is a monster for most bulky teams to deal with, especially stall if it has TBolt + U-Turn since Chansey's being volt-switched and possibly lured all game long. Genesect's ability to break through things like Toxapex that want to come in and regenerate on the U-Turn with a timely thunderbolt make it better at breaking through stall teams than most people realize, since Chansey isn't really a fan of taking U-Turns over and over to the point where it can't do anything anymore.

    Scarf Genesect
    The easiest "cut'n'paste" glue to put onto any team. Outspeeds and revenges a large portion of the metagame, U-Turns on rock-weak "counters" like Alolan Maro and forces 50/50s between U-Turn/Flame/Ice Beam on the reg if your opponent is unfortunate enough to have a rocky helm lando as his main U-Turn check. Outclasses a lot of scarfers, the only other notable ones right now being Scarf Pheromosa (better because faster) and Lando (better because ground/bolt immunity and how powerful its EQ is). Eats nails for breakfast without any milk.

    I agree with most of the things this guy said.

    Gene's ability to either be a coverage machine with a free Choice Specs/Choice Band boost or a speedy RP sweeper with a free Choice Specs/Choice Band boost makes it just a bit too good for OU, don't you guys think? I'll personally be voting to ban it.

    Thanks for reading.
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2016
  24. KratosMana

    KratosMana
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Messages:
    877
    I think genesect's ban would make for a healthier metagame. I've been playing a lot of sun and moon since the start of the gen and never really got why it was brought back, i felt like it was the dumbest thing to prepare for(got to the point of using spdef intimidate arcanine which half beats cb and still beats specs but then still lost to techno blast).. any set out of the scarf set(which i believe to be extremely awful but has it's merits i guess) has the potential to wreck teams. But the biggest problem i have with this mon is that, unlike lele and hoopa, its a potential breaker that also packs rock polish/shift gear(alongside download) so it actually has really good sweeping potential. And man has it been frustating trying to deal with fucking diff speed boosting sets. The right 3 moves can sweep so many teams: techno blast, tbolt, fthrower, buzz, flash cannon, ibeam, hp ground, blaze kick, iron head, u name it. And unlike other sweepers it actually has decent bulk to not fall over priority attacks. (i tried a scoli pass team to 4 atks gene so that it doesn't even need to boost up and got quite a lot of sweeps on high ladder but thats besides the point)
    Basically the thing about gene is that it has too much potential. Specs, band, ebelt hp ground espeed, rp, they are all good sets and are a pain for any of the playstiles avaliable(with stall being the least affected), so i'm voting ban
  25. Colonel M

    Colonel M Bolt Axe Goddess
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2007
    Messages:
    4,921
    Genesect is by far a unique Pokemon in the OU metagame at the moment. Its sheer flexibility is one of the scarier things about it since it can pull a multitude of sets. Having 99 Speed tier also means it outguns Tapu Lele - which is another big threat at the moment. I think the most predictable and easiest set is Choice Scarf. It's straightforward that it usually will outspeed a lot of Pokemon with the item. It is a Pokemon with flaws, though, such as still being slower than threats such as Mega Charizards (which Mega Zard X always outguns after a Dragon Dance unless it's RP Gene), Manaphy, and Salamence. There's also Scarf Garchomp which is kind of common that still outspeeds as well. There is the argument of U-turn, and I'm not denying the move's existence either. This is mainly speaking in the sake of when Genesect is out and, in the event of Choice Scarf, has selected a move. Another problem with Scarf is 2/4 moves usually auto-lose to Magnezone, which can trap Genesect in and KO it with Hidden Power Fire. Occa Berry Magnezone is actually not the worst method to handle Choice Genesects because, outside of U-turn and Hidden Power Ground, Magnezone doesn't really fear anything Choice Genesects carry.

    The problem is a lot of people do crazy things like it such as bluffing. A lot of the lower leveled players expect Choice Scarf when it isn't even its best set. Mixed Gene is the elephant in the room here because it can bypass one of its bigger checks - Heatran. Furthermore, Genesect + Dugtrio is a very solid combo as Genesect can simply U-turn over to Dugtrio to have Dugtrio trap and make Heatran useless in the process. Genesect with Life Orb and Expert Belt have much more freedom on wreaking havoc against teams. This is especially true with Expert Belt because it can simply attempt to bluff Choice sets. As some users even witnessed they'll go as far as using the Event Genesect just to create a mind game out of you, too.

    I definitely could go into more detail later, but, for now, we'll preface with this. I look forward to this suspect test.

    Edit: to cover clarity on this:

    For those responding to the whole "low ladder analogy", this was not intended to be a reason as to why it should nor should not be banned. Rather, consider it as Genesect often carries Choice Scarf that sometimes players are led into false sense of security more than anything. Genesect is very powerful in that it can bluff a lot between its choice sets and even its regular / shiny form.

    My post isn't really to say support or do not support of a ban. Merely to explain what helps make it a threatening Pokemon.

    Dugtrio is more or less mentioned as it's a Pokemon that often patches a lot of Genesect's issues as well. Genesect often has flaws, and the thing is it can cheese some of these flaws with only minimal support. Sometimes with moves like Hidden Power Ground it doesn't even have to do that.
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2016
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