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Announcement np: SM OU Suspect Process, Round 1 - Digital Love - Genesect is now banned

Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by Finchinator, Dec 24, 2016.

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  1. MewtwoHidden

    MewtwoHidden

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    But you never know what coverage move it uses... so you need several different checks to one Pokemon which is centralizing. What Rocky Helmet user wants to eat an Ice Beam? Lando-T, Garchomp, Mandibuzz, etc. don't. Jut because something isn't "immortal" doesn't mean it should stay.

    It helps that it is revealed, but Douse Drive removes potential checks to Genesect whether it is revealed or not.
  2. AJC

    AJC

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    the metagame may change but genesect hasn't it's still the very low risk very high reward pokemon it's been ever since it became obtainable in gen 5 that's too good to not use.

    a expansive movepool that can easily utilizes download and 120/120/99 offenses while having a still pretty decent speed tier and the capper is it's the best u-turner in the game that maximizes it's threat level.

    it's dumb low risk very high reward aspect is what makes it broken because that ever present risk of it just u-turning on a "check" and regaining momentum for it's team so damn easily this aspect makes facing it a gamble every time.

    it's uncompetitive in OU for that reason and deserves a ban.

    it's not invincible but it doesn't need to be when it does it job almost every damn time and there isn't anything the other player can do about it really without over-preping for it.

    i don't even know why they insist on giving something that's already failed it's chance twice and for the same reasons.

    will it finally be realized that's it's just too braindead un-risky to be a part of a balanced OU and stick it in with the likes of deoxys and co as never allowed in OU.

    BAN always and forever and forget the silly idea of it ever being fine for OU period.
  3. 6ft Torbjorn

    6ft Torbjorn formerly JoycapJoshST

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    Well... what moves do you insist Douse Drive variants to be running? It's unpredictability is one of it's biggest assets - and as soon as you know that it's Douse Drive, it's a matter of knowing what moves it runs. If it had more then one version of Douse Drive... then why is it not more popular?
  4. GaRgAnt

    GaRgAnt

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    Okay, cool. I'll have to look at those tierings, then. (I always just used the exact numbers on a case by case basis to make my decisions.)
    You're also postulating an outright preposterous notion that a decent player would blindly switch into strong attacks. Again- no competent individual would do this unless there was an immunity to utilize or a dedicated wall on hand to do so, or if they wanted to sacrifice something for one reason or another. (Life Orb/Status damage, perhaps? Aftermath/Innards out if you want to be an awful person?)
    Within the word "versatile" lies several different degrees of the word. You enjoy playing the "Which Genesect variant am I dealing with here" roulette every time? I'm not sure if you know or ever played Gen 4, but Garchomp was the prime example of the "which variant is this" roulette- it had four distinct variants, two of which specifically functioned as ways to lure in and utterly smash its checks/counters (Yache and Haban) often used as Swords Dance sweepers, one which served as the game's premier revenge killer (Scarf), and a ridiculous wallbreaker that literally had no safe switchins back then when the Fairy type wasn't around (Band) because it could 2HKO just about everything and yet still have enough speed to run over most things. Perhaps Genesect doesn't quite have the ridiculous STAB combination, or access to a +2 in an offensive stat on demand, or a truly trolly speed stat- but considering it gets a +1 to an offensive stat the moment it switches in and access to Rock Polish to clean games with ease in case someone needs a versatile, dedicated sweeper, the parallels are there. Sure, you can find out its set relatively quickly, but maybe you lose the game for the sake of finding it.
    6ft Torbjorn likes this.
  5. Twilightphoenix10

    Twilightphoenix10

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    Douse drive is probably the only example of a set that it runs where you can predict each and every move it has early on with little risk compared to other variants, because you're honestly only having to guess 2 moves instead of 3 (because who doesn't run u-turn on this thing?) if that since most of the douse drive variants run the exact same set, or similar sets (or at least thats what you're implying) which makes dealing with it slightly easier, but not much since it can still punch holes in teams, grab momentum with u-turn, and basically cause headaches. It also shows that your primary checks (fire types like heatran and A-Marowak) are now going to get killed by it with relative ease, especially if rain is up.
  6. pika pal

    pika pal
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    That eliminates the guesswork part of it, but the teambuilding constraint created just by Genesect existing is nonetheless still an issue. If you prepared harder for LO and Band variants, Douse Drive pressures you even knowing it because checks like Alola Wak are blatantly unsafe. And it's not like Douse Drive Genesect still lacks the other notable positives that have been discussed: Fast + Strong U-Turn, Download Power Boosts, and a ridiculously strong movepool to fill the remaining slots.

    Douse Drive is not a primary Genesect set, it's a smaller-but-viable variant that still has to be prepared for since Genesect with Douse Drive will murder most of its semi-consistent checks if it shows up. It's more like wearing a shirt that says "I'm going to run this game" rather than snickering under his breath at your expense.
    TURBODERP likes this.
  7. 6ft Torbjorn

    6ft Torbjorn formerly JoycapJoshST

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    True... but it's not really answering my question. What you're implying is that Dousect only runs 2 attacks (3 if you include Techno Blast, which shouldn't be a surprise on this set).

    Now that I think about it - why are we running Uturn on anything Non-scarf? (other then momentum, which I understand). If it was just as effective on non-scarf sets as on scarf sets - Mega Scizor would have been put on the chopping block by now tbh (and keep in mind, that has recovery and hazard control in exchange for some of it's versatility).

    EDIT:

    'Fast Uturn'... uh... with scarf - yes, but otherwise I have to stop you there. A) 99 Base is respectable, but far from what i'd call 'fast'. I say this as 100-a-piece myths such as Jirachi/Victini/Mew are considered pretty meh these days. And B) Are we presuming that it's ALWAYS running max speed? Because you have a superb defensive blueprint in the form of a Steel type with only one weakness. Are there not sets running max HP (which, for my money, is entirely possible)?
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2016
  8. Zentrius

    Zentrius

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    because it lets genesect get out of an unfavorable matchup if an opposing team has the perfect check for it for the moveset its running and then bring out a check/trapper to get rid of said check? i dont understand why you're saying its not as efective in scarf sets when in reality, pretty much every single moveset outside of boosting sets SHOULD be running u-turn due to the its insane utility at gaining momentum. and i dont understand whats the point youre trying to make with the mscizor mention since it literally isn't as versatile as genesect.
  9. Lord Moet

    Lord Moet formerly RiCH HOMiE CHRiS
    is a Past WCoP Champion

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    One question I would like to pose for you. How many pokemon do you consciously plan for when you build a team? Singular pokemon not a typing or combo. You'll probably get about 3 or 4: Phero, gene, ninja and maybe something else. Point being if the pokemon is so good you have to have build with it in mind for every team, is that not over centralizing?
  10. 6ft Torbjorn

    6ft Torbjorn formerly JoycapJoshST

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    Right as I edited the last one...

    I'm not saying Non-scarf Uturn is nonviable - but i'm noticing that you're kind of saying 'Oh, it's a failsafe vs checks with more then 100 speed' (Salazzle / Volcarona etc.), when in fact you're basically buggered without scarf and/or are forced to raw switch. How you handle that raw switch comes down to player skill, in this case.
  11. GaRgAnt

    GaRgAnt

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    You can easily run U-turn on an Expert Belt/Z-move set to bluff a choice item, or you can just go for the raw power of a Choice Band or even run a bluff U-turn for purely momentum on a surprise Choice Specs set. You've pointed out yourself- the base 100s are quite mediocre currently, and most Garchomps I've seen refuse to run max speed in favor of bulk to abuse the fact that Rough Skin + Rocky Helmet makes for a hilariously painful anti-Metagross combo. The thing about Mega Scizor is that you KNOW what Mega Scizor does- it either takes a defensive defogger role, or it starts dancing and punching the fuck out of kids. (Kids not named Tapu Lele, that is...) You have zero reasonable expectation to what Genesect you're dealing with and the coverage it possesses in comparison. (Okay, maybe not zero- most are scarfed. But when they aren't, well, god help you.)

    You're naming checks with some massive baggage of their own. (Notice the fire-typing? Notice how fire is weak to rock?) Congratulations. You managed to undermine your own point.

    Alright, you're completely correct- if there are Pokemon you MUST keep in mind during the process of teambuilding, that's a symptom of centralization.

    However, both Greninja and Pheromosa might as well quit when confronted with certain counters- there is absolutely no way for a Pheromosa, besides a previous Beast Boost to Attack somehow (This is the only halfway common scenario besides a Baton Pass), to bypass Toxapex and just about any bulky Ghost (Dusknoir hidden OP- hell, Gengar could probably come in on a HJK, live the Ice Beam or whatever, and Shadow Ball her into the grave). Likewise, Greninja is similarly walled by Toxapex and Blissey or Ferrothorn or- okay, you get the point. The Tapus all have their own baggage as well, in addition to all of them being vulnerable to Toxic Spikes: Tapu Koko is fast and gets free double STAB on Electric moves, but a Ground-type not named Landorus or Garchomp giggles at it, as does Alolawak. Tapu Lele can't be countered by Scizor, but its rather predictable movepool means that decent play (And Toxic Spikes) will bypass her easily. Tapu Bulu sometimes ends up helping the other team with Grassy Terrain and a quad weakness to poison is pretty fucking annoying when someone actually does take advantage of it. And Tapu Fini, despite being bulky as hell and a great defogger, can be hit by Toxic Spikes on the way in and really doesn't serve a purpose besides a decently fast Taunter and Defogger.

    Can you say anything even close to the same about Genesect? Download means that it's always dangerous, its movepool is too wide to be codified into a standard set of expectations, its statistical spread means that it has good bulk and is on the high side in terms of speed, and one counter to Genesect with a scarf (Toxapex) is not a counter to a Genesect with an Expert Belt or Life Orb. I don't know of any other OU resident who can do an about face like that.

    And yes, Toxapex is a bit of a problem currently (Regenerator + Recovery and absurd typing in a single Pokemon is pretty busted) but you KNOW what Toxapex does, you KNOW it has zero offensive presence, and it actually possesses very common weaknesses. Oh, and Tapu Lele.
  12. michaeloche

    michaeloche

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    So I've looked up Aldaron's thread (this is a great thread, and you should read it and you may be able to find something to debate about there) and tried to focus on whether Genesect is uncompetitive, broken, or unhealthy. For convenience, I'm copy/pasting the definitions here.

    uncompetitive (open)

    II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
    A.) This can be match up related; think the determination that BP took the battling skill aspect out of the player's hands and made it overwhelmingly a team match up issue, where even with the best moves made each time by a standard team often were not enough.
    B.) This can be external factors; think endless battle clause, where the determining factor becomes internet connection over playing skill.
    C.) This can be probability management issues; think OHKOs, SwagPlay, Evasion, or Moody, all of which turn the battle from emphasizing battling skill to emphasizing the result of the RNG more often than not.
    D.) Note uncompetitive elements are almost always present in the battling skill aspect; they will, however, be present in the team building aspect should we allow them in the sense of having to rely on excessively specific counters (such as loading teams with Sturdy or Keen Eye Pokemon and the like).


    broken (open)

    III.) Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
    A.) Important to note that it is a relative statement; a 200/200/200/200/200/200 BST Pokemon with standard movepool would be broken in a metagame where the average is say, 100/100/100/100/100/100, not where the average is 200/200/200/200/200/200
    B.) Examples are mostly Pokemon and include strong Ubers like Kyogre, Groudon, and Arceus. These aren't necessarily completely uncompetitive because they don't take the determining factor out of the player's hands; both can use these Pokemon and both probably have a fair chance to win. They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage. These examples limit team building skill.
    C.) Examples also include ones whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily gimmicky Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere. These examples also limit team building skill.
    D.) Uncompetitive and Broken defined like this tend to be mutually exclusive in practice, but aren't necessarily entirely so.
    1.) BP was deemed uncompetitive because of how drastically it removed battling skill's effects and brought the battle down to match up, but it could also be deemed broken because of the unique ways in which you had to deal with it.
    2.) While this isn't always the case, an uncompetitive thing probably isn't broken, but a broken thing is more likely to be uncompetitive simply due to the unique counter / check component. For example, Mega Kangaskhan was deemed broken because it was simply too good relative to the rest of the metagame and caused the tier to centralize around it, but it could also be labeled as uncompetitive because of the severe team match up restriction it caused by punishing players if they did not pack one of the few gimmicky and obscure counters or checks for it.


    unhealthy (open)

    IV.) Unhealthy - elements that are neither uncompetitive nor broken, yet deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit "skillful play" to a large extent
    A.) These are elements that may not limit either team building or battling skill enough individually, but combine to cause an effect that is undesirable for the metagame.
    1.) We haven't really had an example of an unhealthy ban yet, but a potential example is Stealth Rock; it certainly is on the mind of every team building experience and games are often steeped in Stealth Rock strategy. Whether or not this adds up to limiting team building skill or battling skill is part of the conversation to be had.
    2.) One important thing to note with this is that distribution both matters (in the case of large distributions) and doesn't matter (in the case of low distributions).
    a.) If Stealth Rock or Scald weren't so common, they probably would not be as controversial issues as they are.
    b.) However, just because something isn't highly distributed, like Shadow Tag, doesn't mean it isn't unhealthy. Some tried to state that Shadow Tag wouldn't be broken on a 10/10/10/10/10/10 BST mon, but this is the wrong way to look at it.
    c.) Things aren't broken (or unhealthy or uncompetitive) only in vacuums; they can contribute to the whole being greater than the sum of its parts. Instead, consider how potentially broken elements would be with average distribution on average BST Pokemon. If Shadow Tag was on, let's say 4-5 OU potential Pokemon as opposed to 1-2 and the average BSTs were something like 80/80/80/80/80/80, would it be broken?The take away from this is to not ignore distribution, but if lowly distributed, to assume how the element would take away from team building or battling skill if it was distributed to average pokemon in an average quantity.(Yes, we will provide average statistics)
    B.) This can also be a state of the metagame. If the metagame has too much diversity wherein team building ability is greatly hampered and battling skill is drastically reduced, we may seek to reduce the number of good to great threats. This can also work in reverse; if the metagame is too centralized a particular set of Pokemon, none of which are broken on their own, we may seek to add Pokemon to increase diversity.
    1.) The Mega-Metagross suspect could be said to fall under this umbrella; Mega-Metagross wasn't really broken, but it was the best Pokemon in a game with far too many good to great threats. It was felt that, for the sake of metagame health, we should seek to reduce the number of these threats (however, you'll note the community voted to keep it in the tier).
    C.) This is the most controversial and subjective one, and will therefore be used the most sparingly. The OU Council will only use this amidst drastic community outcry and a conviction that the move will noticeably result in the better player winning over the lesser player.
    D.) When trying to argue a particular element's suspect status, please avoid this category unless absolutely necessary. This is a last ditch, subjective catch-all, and tiering arguments should focus on uncompetitive or broken first. We are coming to a point in the generations where the number of threats is close to overwhelming, so we may touch upon this more often, but please try to focus on uncompetitive and broken first.


    My thoughts on each point:

    Uncompetitive: Regarding matchup, it's not always easy to tell what Genesect will be using at team preview. Even if it's Douse Drive, you still have three moveslots that you don't know what they are. Yes, I know that sometimes it depends on Genesect's teammates, but it's a case of it choosing its own counters, much like Landorus-I, Greninja, and Hoopa-U back in ORAS (and as I'm sure you remember, all three of those were banned). And even if you do manage to figure out what four moves it has, you can still take a bunch of damage from a move that has a Download boost, and even some that don't.

    Broken: Genesect's BST alone is not broken relative to the rest of OU, but it's a combination of stats, movepool, and Download that put it a step ahead of the rest of the tier.

    Unhealthy: As mentioned in Aldaron's post, this one is a bit dicey. Personally, I think unhealthiness can be a combination of the above two points, and not necessarily its own thing. Genesect is unhealthy because it both uncompetitive enough and broken enough to create a less desirable metagame, one that many players will see it in preview and think too hard about how to deal with it, causing many a player (myself included) to screw something up and lose their Genesect counter.

    I think Genesect is more uncompetitive than broken, but enough of each to be unhealthy, and enough of all three to warrant a ban.

    tl;dr ban Genesect
  13. Mr Ponty

    Mr Ponty

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    I do not think greninja is checked by toxapex, it has extrasensory, mind you.
  14. Twilightphoenix10

    Twilightphoenix10

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    not that I'm disagreing with you, because you are correct, but how many greninja actually run extrasensory? I mean I would since it counters one of the best counters to it (can battle bond greninja even learn extrasensory?).

    But this is about Genesect and not greninja so back to the topica at hand.
  15. Dokkerich

    Dokkerich

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    A friend of mine barely hit 2700 coil in 70 games with 17 loses I hit it after 66 games with like 12 losses so just try to not get more than about 15 losses and u shud be fine :)
    Air Glider likes this.
  16. pizzq

    pizzq

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    genesect has such an amazing movepool and tons of viable sets coupled with download and one of the best typings
    decent speed tier and uturn allow to get slow uturns vs ho and fast uturns vs stall/balance
    u cant effectively counter a set without scouting and losing a mon or momentum
    whens the last time u seen an Amoonguss counter a genesect ABR
  17. GH[O]ST

    GH[O]ST

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    I agree 100% with what ABR posted.

    The suspect ladder metagame is so unbelievably stale right now. Genesect used to be able to pressure what would otherwise be overcentralizing cores. Take for example the lando-t + tapu fini and/or magearna core. Right now this combination can tank hits from many of the premier attackers in the tier and dish back incredible damage with high powered moves coming off of amazing attack stats and with wide coverage. They even pressure stall. Voltturn. Not to mention they can sweep at the drop of the hat depending on the set. Setup lando t and gear shift magearna are simply devastating

    Or take the broken tapu lele +alakazam and/or pheromosa core which pidgeonholes offense into a speed race now that there is no genesect to pressure them.

    Genesect gave us a very diverse, dynamic and healthy metagame. Now it's a race to see who can kill the lando/magearna/fini the fastest or who can reach the highest speed

    I see people keep bringing up hp ground (lol) and douse drive. Those were rarely used and why if we really must, why cant we just ban the genesect drives like we did soul dew for the latis in previous gens.
    JackTheGamer and X5Dragon like this.
  18. pizzq

    pizzq

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    so ur justifying a broken mon staying because you are required to run it to check other supposed "Broken" cores
    having to run an overcentralizing mon to beat basically every relevant core is the definition of why something should be banned
    also dousedrive and hpground werent "rarely used"
    running a genesect on every team is diverse dynamic and healthy??????
    i disagree with what abr said but what you are saying is completely different and honestly not even justification to unban something
    you literally used made up scenarios to futher prove why genesect should be infact banned
  19. Sergeant Spooky

    Sergeant Spooky

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    I don't really understand this, you're agreeing with ABR's post which wanted to keep gene around cause it promotes a creative and interesting meta or w/e, but you're also saying gene needs to stay so it can it can be slapped on every team and check everything, which kinda sounds like the absolute opposite of creative and interesting.

    How about people get creative and interesting with how they handle cores like these instead of just relying on the best pokemon in the tier to do it for them.
    Mr Ponty and Noveliss like this.
  20. GH[O]ST

    GH[O]ST

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    My post wasnt detailing a primary justification. I prefaced the entire post stating that i agreed with ABR. why should i bother regurgitating what he already so well wrote?

    My post was more of a description of the manifestation of canning genesect.

    Usage rate, by itself, is hardly an indicator of wheter or not a poke is healthy for the metagame. I believe lando t was used more than genesect.

    What "madeup" scenarios did i use ? And if they are made up why are you suggesting that they can support a genesect ban?

    Douse drive and hp ground were rarely used. If you really want to harp on it then why not ban douse drive ala soul dew ban? That way we are only left with hp ground lure ( youre okay with lures right? Like the hp ground serperior or talonflame lure of oras. Or will you guys censure that too just because its for the annoying genesect).

    what if genesect is good enough to be used as much as lando-t (speaking of slapped on every team...)

    I dont know if you realized but the power creep has yielded incredible tanks and sponges that have turned previous offensive juggernauts of OU like Latios, keldeo, and terrakion into relative small fries. Gen 7 has also introduced incredible offensive pressure in the form of lele, pheromosa,etc

    Amidst all of this was one of the most dynamic offenive pokemon to date. Previously when todays small fries like latios keldeo and such were top dogs, genesect was too much.

    Like ABR said the game has become a linear switch fest or speed arms race
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 27, 2016
    JackTheGamer likes this.
  21. Drangonn.

    Drangonn.

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    You bring up gene's prowess as a solid corebreaker and I agree with you, but that doesnt make it healthy because that's not its primary purpose. Presenting this as an argument by saying "genesect is a vital part of the metagame as it is one of the only pokemon capable of breaking the core of landog and fini" would be fallacious, not only because it wouldn't be vital in this scenario, but because it wouldn't be true, either. Genesect is a teambreaker, with few teams being adequately prepared to take it on for the simple reason that most genesect will carry coverage for staple mons, and like moet said, there is no guarantee you will have a counter to it despite how hard you prep for it.

    Also, the ladder being "stale" is subjective; many teams and battles alike are conducive to slow, drawn-out battles simply due to team structure. If we take the core of Lando+Fini, commonly used on balanced teams for stealth rocks and defog support, its not overcentralizing, its just commonly used. You're skewering your own argument that usage doesn't indicate brokenness here by indicating this core is too overcentralizing, despite the only plausible evidence for you thinking this is, again, because of high usage. As such, your definition of "staleness" doesnt really fit here, as to you it may mean slow and drawn out, but that cannot be solely attributed to the lack of genesect.

    You also explicitly state it (with the same rhetoric) again here:

    Also, banning specific items to make genesect "not broken" is a ridiculous proposition. By that point, you know it's broken if you're just trying to tame it. The philosophy is to ban it if it's broken, not to nerf it unnaturally until it isn't broken anymore.

    Also, what tanks and sponges? There really hasn't been much to change the position of genesect, certainly. Toxapex, Tapu Fini, and the various other new defensive pokemon of SM OU cannot individually take on a genesect without knowing its set first. And again, the end all argument here is that just because it has counters doesn't mean it isn't broken. As such, genesect literally has 0 oppurtunity cost, with only situational counters and no hard counters, making counterprepping even more difficult.

    I don't know how genesect can be seen as not broken, honestly. By anyone.
    Silver_Lucario42 likes this.
  22. pika pal

    pika pal
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    Wanna note, Keldeo and Latios didn't drop because they're not strong enough to break sponges/tanks/walls, they dropped because the things that happen to be good and prevalent have beneficial match ups against them, such as the Tapus (only one of which is a wall/sponge and another potentially applied as a tank) being powerful Fairy types, Mega Metagross improving with the Speed-Mega change, and Pheromosa being a powerful offensive cleaner. This isn't a sign of defensive creep, those two simply don't match up well against the mons that are big right now, compared to Genesect who can (and in some cases will) match up well against virtually everything with little in the way of downsides.

    And I don't see how keeping something as powerful as Genesect in the tier is promoting diversity. Several posts have listed a number of checks to Genesect, but when you consider that you'll need a few of them to reliably answer Genesect as a mon, that's very constraining on your team building. On a broader level, Gensect's insane coverage options and Download make him a lynchpin to breaking numerous cores that rely on typing over raw bulk to tank things, which means he severely inhibits Balance as a playstyle, while being a low-risk high-reward mon that plays best on offense compared to stall (as is, lord knows defensive teams would find ways to work with a momentum machine if need be). Pigeonholing so much of a team's resources into checking one mon that can easily adapt in response to trends stifles the ability of the meta to move forward rather than "rotate", as any attempt to innovate has the massive hurdle of "this can't make me weaker to Genesect" before it'll be worth considering.

    Look at Aegislash. When Pokemon adapted to the Mixed Crumbler set, SubToxic emerged; when SubToxic answers picked up, Aegislash users tried out Head Smash Lures and and Swords Dance sets; when those checks picked up, back to the Crumbler. Aegislash centered the tier around itself and constantly kept everyone on their toes not developing new answers, but keeping up with what he was running and thus what set of checks was trendy, effectively leading the meta in circles. I'm not foolish enough to say Genesect has NEARLY the same degree of centralization, but this principle of "a strong central mon promotes diversity" is disproved as a concept because Aegislash has already shown what that type of element does in practice. If it's Genesect wrapping the meta around itself, that's toxic centralization; if he's necessary to keep some kind of boogeyman core in check as also suggested, he still shouldn't be around as that merely suggests Broken-checking-Broken and we have something to suspect after he goes.
    Deluks917 and dwarfstar like this.
  23. Colonel M

    Colonel M Like a Pope
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    5,869
    If only Showdown announced Genesect had Hidden Power Ground... or are we saying that isn't viable?

    Like others have said Douse Drive is more of a method to Intimidate foes from switching in by asserting dominance. Even with one move revealed therere still 3 moves that likely make it difficult to switch into. Thunderbolt and Flamethrower still work with U-turn as a means of momentum to switch into something Douse Drive may have a trickier time handling.
  24. oookillemd-tan

    oookillemd-tan

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2014
    Messages:
    7
    Can Genesect beat all of its counters? Yes, it has more than enough coverage

    Can Genesect beat all of its counters at once? No, it has way too many moves and more than one item that it needs to run for that.

    Should I have to scout for every single coverage move and what item it has? No, that means deadly 50/50s every time genesect comes in, extremely skewed toward genesect because of u-turn.

    As much as my heart aches to say this... I'm for a ban.
    BeardyBennett likes this.
  25. Full_Korbe

    Full_Korbe

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    145
    I might be more on the fence than I previously was, but I still think that Genesect is not a welcome addition to the metagame, so I'm for a ban for now.
    My main concern with Genesect, like with others previously banned mons (Mence on DPPt, Greninja, Aegislash) is that there is no opportunity cost by using it. It can do anything you need it to do and thanks to its great typing and decent stat, it's easy to slap it in a team and improve it. No Gene sets are individually too strong, but it's incredible versatility that makes it too difficult to handle. Thankss to U-Turn, its only truly bad match-ups are Rocky Helmet and it still grabs momentum like no one. It has counters, of course. But any of them can be beaten or at least crippled by the right move, just like Protean Greninja can.
    Honestly, there is nothing that really pushes on to the edge: no individual set is incredibly strong but it just can do any offensive set you need it to. Sure you can scout it, but others said it better than me: it might be too late.
    totoTavros likes this.
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