Announcement np: SM OU Suspect Process, Round 1 - Digital Love - Genesect is now banned

[Anish]

Genesect is one the most unique Pokemon in the tier, with positive and negative traits that stand out from other Pokemon. On one hand, it has great mixed offenses, typing, and movepool. On the other hand, it has middling speed, and could be scouted for. With its great movepool, it gets affected by 4MSS, and an intelligent player can narrow its sets down from team preview. Its positive traits are very influential, making it one of the best Pokemon in the tier. Thus, its suspect is a very important moment, and I want to clarify where both sides stand on Genesect, so that people can make the right decision.

No Ban: Genesect's suspect is happening very early in the metagame. A lot of players (myself included) were calling for a Pheromosa quickban, when it was not quickban worthy. We should give Genesect more time, so that the metagame develops to an extent where we can judge whether it will be broken or not. Genesect could go the same way as Pheromosa, and it has got arguably worse from last generation due to the hit Choice Banded Genesect has taken, giving some playstyles, like stall, an easier time, with Pokemon like Toxapex and Mantine introduced. Although Genesect definitely gets benefitted from the addition of more fairy types like Tapu Lele, making its defensive typing even better, there are numerous steels like Mega Metagross and Magearna, which give it a bit more competition, from XY, and teams can weigh each of there benefits. Genesect may be broken right now, but as the metagame develops, we dont know if it will have a similar fate as Pheromosa, which was broken for the first few days of SuMo and should give it more time. Additionally, scouting isnt as hard as it may seem, because you can see what a team may need to lure, and can run calcs to determine his item, and can also see whether he needs Rock Polish Genesect for offense, or pressures it well enough and needs the fourth attack, and a lot of Pokemon, which check certain sets, like Mega Metagross to non Flamethrower Genesect/ Banded Genesect , or Lando T to non Ice Beam Genesect, are pretty sphlashable, so while it is hard to prepare for it, it may be just as hard to prepare for something like Mega Metagross, after a couple of weeks, with its best answers like Scizor Mega also sometimes losing to partners like Magnezone.

Ban: Genesect has one of the best movepools of a metagame, and even though the Band Set lost some effectiveness, the reason for its ban in XY still stay. Although you can try to scout, one misplay will result in the loss of a Pokemon, which could be very crucial for the game. Your opponent knows, as well as you that you could be scouting. It has many characteristics like XY Greninja, but it also has decent bulk, and no 'hard counter', and it also pressures 2 playstyles very well with sets like Rock Polish, or even Scarf Genesect pressuring offense, Life Orb and Banded Genesect pressuring balance, maybe slightly more effectively, and even could pressure stall in cores with Life Orb Genesect and Screech Dugtrio .

I hope I was sufficient in outlining the opinions of both sides, and that I helped you in understanding this suspect.

 

[Deleted User 229847]

Genesect is one the most unique Pokemon in the tier, with positive and negative traits that stand out from other Pokemon. On one hand, it has great mixed offenses, typing, and movepool. On the other hand, it has middling speed, and could be scouted for. With its great movepool, it gets affected by 4MSS, and an intelligent player can narrow its sets down from team preview. Its positive traits are very influential, making it one of the best Pokemon in the tier. Thus, its suspect is a very important moment, and I want to clarify where both sides stand on Genesect, so that people can make the right decision.

1) 4MSS was already debunked
2) "could be scouted"... with 8+ sets. Yea, sure. How much? How much pokemon could you lose by "scouting" his set?
3) Team Preview scouting is simply senseless since anyone can build his team however he wants, and also since every one of use experiences the game and the metagame in different ways, someone will find a fav./ best set whereas another player will find another one, in the exact same team. (this was also debunked some posts ago)

The only valid argument you are bringing is the middling speed, that's all. I might also add the x4 weakness to fire.

Also, i am fine with the rest of your post.

 

[X5Dragon]

Okay, cool. I'll have to look at those tierings, then. (I always just used the exact numbers on a case by case basis to make my decisions.)

You're also postulating an outright preposterous notion that a decent player would blindly switch into strong attacks. Again- no competent individual would do this unless there was an immunity to utilize or a dedicated wall on hand to do so, or if they wanted to sacrifice something for one reason or another. (Life Orb/Status damage, perhaps? Aftermath/Innards out if you want to be an awful person?)


Within the word "versatile" lies several different degrees of the word. You enjoy playing the "Which Genesect variant am I dealing with here" roulette every time? I'm not sure if you know or ever played Gen 4, but Garchomp was the prime example of the "which variant is this" roulette- it had four distinct variants, two of which specifically functioned as ways to lure in and utterly smash its checks/counters (Yache and Haban) often used as Swords Dance sweepers, one which served as the game's premier revenge killer (Scarf), and a ridiculous wallbreaker that literally had no safe switchins back then when the Fairy type wasn't around (Band) because it could 2HKO just about everything and yet still have enough speed to run over most things. Perhaps Genesect doesn't quite have the ridiculous STAB combination, or access to a +2 in an offensive stat on demand, or a truly trolly speed stat- but considering it gets a +1 to an offensive stat the moment it switches in and access to Rock Polish to clean games with ease in case someone needs a versatile, dedicated sweeper, the parallels are there. Sure, you can find out its set relatively quickly, but maybe you lose the game for the sake of finding it.

I was just saying with regards to its defensive typing and single weakness, that is all fine and dandy but the pokemon I mentioned can be considered common offensive threats that either outspeed its scarf sets or they cleanly OHKO it cleanly anyway if it tries set up even with full HP, leaving it reliant on team support to remove said threats (Scarf) or ease it in (RP).

Now, you will say "well alright so it has some flaws against some pokemon that are used in some teams, most of your post is pro ban why bother with these details?"

I not only believe in painting the whole picture correctly even if I've taken a side but also doing things for the right reason. "Versatility" in itself is not a crime, its whether or not its most common sets can be stopped (100% Zygarde) after discovering them (checks and counters) since we already agree that its degree of centralization (Aegislash) is not overwhelming and evidence on the ladder suggests people are focusing on common cores rather than inviting new pokemon and promoting diversity.

You brought up Garchomp and regrettably I did not witness the gen 4 meta, but let me share with you another example, Gen 5 Jirachi. That perpetually smiling piece of **** made people boil with its haxy shenanigans and had many great sets, from parahax rachi to scarf rachi to cm rainchi to lead grass knot rachi, etc. THAT was a diverse, extremely versatile pokemon.

But it in the end they were all stoppable and
discovering it did not involve throwing mons away or the towel in the ring if you decided to not prepare for that Gene set, therefore I now support a Ban.

 

[Pyukumu-kukuku]

In previous Gens, Genesect was considered so overwhelming powerful that it needed to banned because the rest of the meta couldn't handle it. The best way to determine if it should stay or go is placing it side by side it's new rivals in the game and see how it compares those that share it's roles. I don't see the point in comparing it to the older pokemon because they already have been compared to it in previous gens (unless someone can think of some major changes to old mons that boosted their strength that I'm not aware of).

I would say Pheromosa is about as close as you get to Genesect for this gene and it doesn't even compare:

Genesect:

• Gets U-Turn.
• Flying, Fire, Ice, Bug, Electric, Dark, Grass, Pyschic, Steel, Poison, and Ghost (11) coverage moves.
• 1 weakness, 9 resists/imm
• Decent defensive stats
• Initial Damage Boost

Pheromosa:

• Gets U-Turn.
• Ice, Bug, Fighting, and Poison (4) coverage moves.
• 4 weaknesses, 5 resists/imm
• Pitiful defensive stats
• Post-kill damage boost

Honestly comparing the stats the only edge Pheromosa gets over Genesect is it's speed since Download basically makes up the 17 BP difference and then some. People were complaining about Pheromosa being broken and has been considered for suspect test itself. Imo Pheromosa is not broken but Genesect is significantly stronger and deserves the ban.

 

[Anish]

1) 4MSS was already debunked
2) "could be scouted"... with 8+ sets. Yea, sure. How much? How much pokemon could you lose by "scouting" his set?
3) Team Preview scouting is simply senseless since anyone can build his team however he wants, and also since every one of use experiences the game and the metagame in different ways, someone will find a fav./ best set whereas another player will find another one, in the exact same team. (this was also debunked some posts ago)

The only valid argument you are bringing is the middling speed, that's all. I might also add the x4 weakness to fire.

Also, i am fine with the rest of your post.

Just want to clarify what I meant to say.
1> 4MSS hurts Genesect by slightly reducing the worth of its coverage, if it could get a extra moveslot , it probably could break past most of its 'checks' in one moveslot However, Genesect is able to pick its coverage, for what the team requires, but it would prefer having the coverage, just in case. I didnt mean it as a crtique of Genesect, but said it just because I had mentioned its coverage in my sentence.

2&3> It may have 8+ sets, but you can figure out his item by looking at the damage rolls, helping you narrow down the possible sets. You could also narrow down the sets via Team Preview, because if he has Manaphy + Genesect, there is a decent chance that he would be Flamethrower, so you could use that knowledge, and switch into something else instead. You may not have a secondary way to deal with it, as no team is perfect, but maybe the metagame might adapt to Genesect, like it adapted to Pheromosa, and waiting for some time to judge whether it was broken may make sense. Of course, there is a chance that you would mispredict, which I had mentioned in my post.

Hope that I make sense now!

 

[Pyukumu-kukuku]

2&3> It may have 8+ sets, but you can figure out his item by looking at the damage rolls, helping you narrow down the possible sets. You could also narrow down the sets via Team Preview, because if he has Manaphy + Genesect, there is a decent chance that he would be Flamethrower, so you could use that knowledge, and switch into something else instead. You may not have a secondary way to deal with it, as no team is perfect, but maybe the metagame might adapt to Genesect, like it adapted to Pheromosa, and waiting for some time to judge whether it was broken may make sense. Of course, there is a chance that you would mispredict, which I had mentioned in my post.

I feel like if the metagame could adjust to Genesect, it would have after one gen if not two. If I was to make up a pokemon with the typing and stats required to check it would need to be some demon spawn with Toxipex stats and Alolan Muk type resistances for it to be able to eat a hit safely guaranteed. There is just nothing that can check Genesect without potentially being nuked by one of it's moves being able to do at least 50%.

Basically, there is no single pokemon that can check all the possible moves this thing can run. Having to guess it's moveset is a problem, it's basically the same principle as trying to guess what buff Moody will give an opponents pokemon. "If it gets an Attack buff I'll be fine!" vs "If it doesn't have flamethrower I'll be fine!" It's called "checks and balances" for a reason. If there is no checks, there is no balance. If there is no balance, then it is broken.

Not trying to harp on your post AnishSomani but that bolded line sparked a (hopefully) useful point that should be considered.

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

I feel like if the metagame could adjust to Genesect, it would have after one gen if not two. If I was to make up a pokemon with the typing and stats required to check it would need to be some demon spawn with Toxipex stats and Alolan Muk type resistances for it to be able to eat a hit safely guaranteed. There is just nothing that can check Genesect without potentially being nuked by one of it's moves being able to do at least 50%.

Basically, there is no single pokemon that can check all the possible moves this thing can run. Having to guess it's moveset is a problem, it's basically the same principle as trying to guess what buff Moody will give an opponents pokemon. "If it gets an Attack buff I'll be fine!" vs "If it doesn't have flamethrower I'll be fine!" It's called "checks and balances" for a reason. If there is no checks, there is no balance. If there is no balance, then it is broken.

Not trying to harp on your post AnishSomani but that bolded line sparked a (hopefully) useful point that should be considered.

On one hand - you are kind of saying we should conform to centralization by saying we could adjust to Genesect. If there were more, say, Taunt/Pursuit Zoroark in OU, Aegi wouldn't have been quickbanned (I still feel as though that was kneejerk as hell, but hey that's a rant for another day...). There isn't. (Fun fact, I did have a chat with PM1 on Discord about this).

On the other end, you MIGHT be right in the sense that if more people logic checked / took educated guesses at the team preview of their opponent, you might be able to find out what Genesect variant they're running (See Douse Drive on rain teams / Flamethrower in conjunction with Manaphy / Scarf on slower looking teams etc.) Is this what you meant?

 

[Anish]

I feel like if the metagame could adjust to Genesect, it would have after one gen if not two. If I was to make up a pokemon with the typing and stats required to check it would need to be some demon spawn with Toxipex stats and Alolan Muk type resistances for it to be able to eat a hit safely guaranteed. There is just nothing that can check Genesect without potentially being nuked by one of it's moves being able to do at least 50%.

Basically, there is no single pokemon that can check all the possible moves this thing can run. Having to guess it's moveset is a problem, it's basically the same principle as trying to guess what buff Moody will give an opponents pokemon. "If it gets an Attack buff I'll be fine!" vs "If it doesn't have flamethrower I'll be fine!" It's called "checks and balances" for a reason. If there is no checks, there is no balance. If there is no balance, then it is broken.

Not trying to harp on your post AnishSomani but that bolded line sparked a (hopefully) useful point that should be considered.

Just want to make it clear that I meant that a team may not have a perfect matchup with Flamethrower Genesect, and would have to use offensive pressure, to limit its switch ins, and have soft checks to Flamethrower Genesect, but they would not be as good as the one it would have for non Flamethrower, but I did not make it evident that that was what I was saying.

Additionally, there is a slight difference between Genesect and Moody. Moody is completely upto RNG Gods, and while you may not be 100% sure about what set a Genesect is running from team preview, it certainly would not be entirely random. Additionally, adaptation of a metagame does not always deal with having a counter to a pokemon, but may instead deal with popularity of Pokemon. Buzzwole had always existed, and although it did gain in prominence, the metagame had to also adapt to Pheramosa, through the rise of certain Pokemon carrying priority like Ash Greninja and Zygarde, giving teams a wider variety of Pheromosa checks. Similarly with Genesect, the metagame is still very new, and a lot of Pokemon have not been thouroughly experimented with, so it may be better to see what happens in the following weeks, and see if those trends make it any easier to deal with.

Sorry for prolonging this discussion, just wanted to clarify a no-ban reason.

 

[ABR]

One major aspect of this suspect which hasn't really been addressed is the issue of paper vs practice, or rather, how well Genesect does something in theory vs in reality.

On paper, Genesect is a total menace. There's no need to get into this much, but we all know there's 0 mons that 100% counter Gene and it has U-turn etc. It is a major offensive threat, and in theory, can completely take advantage of any switchin.

That being said, how does Genesect actually play out? Much like Pheromosa, albeit not to the same extent, Genesect can't exactly switch in frequently, and doesn't 1v1 that many pokemon. It isn't frail per se, but it's not exactly avoiding a 2hko from any offensive pokemon at all. While Gene's typing is theoretically ideal for countering Mega Metagross, as we see with Mega Scizor, it actually dies to Mash + Hammer, and Scarf Flamethrower can't even kill. The same applies with even Tapu Lele, and many other offensive pokemon when attacking Gene. In the case of defensive pokemon, you can say that Genesect 2hkos Amoonguss and Celesteela, but it can't exactly 1v1 them. Sure Gene can come in on a Giga or a Protect respectively, but it fails to OHKO and is killed or slept in return. These are only examples, but the same type of scenarios occur very frequently.

In a vacuum, Genesect is an uncounterable offensive juggernaut. Despite this theoretical prowess, it isn't all that overpowered in a real game. It doesn't switch in vs a lot, being 2hko'd or ohko'd by every offensive pokemon, and fails to 1v1 many as well. It is not that a rather frail pokemon like Greninja in ORAS should never be banned, but rather Genesect simply isn't too overwhelming on either side to be banworthy.

Much of the discussion in this thread has been far too theoretical, so it would be best if we took into account the practical uses of Genesect in a real match.

 

[BeardyBennett]

I may be a bit late to the party here, but I want to say this. I have seen people in here mention that banning Genesect may lead to increased stall usage. As an avid anti-stall man myself, I implore all of you to not have that impact your voting.

In fact, if you're worried that Genesect getting banned will lead to a massive increase in stall, doesn't that show just how much Genesect dictates and centralizes teambuilding? That Genesect's presence alone holds back an entire playstyle? Never mind that I don't personally find this argument to be the case.

What I am trying (and failing) to get at is that this is about Genesect. It's not about whether or not you like stall. I'm not saying don't consider how Genesect will shift the metagame. Just don't make your vote based on your preference for a particular playstyle. Like, even though I like hyper offense and like faster play, it doesn't mean I think stall mons like Clefable should be banned. Reason being that Clefable isn't something I think is uncompetitive, broken, etc.

If you think Genesect is worthy of the ban, then ban it. If not, then don't. However, don't let the prospect and theorymonning of stall usage dictate how you vote. We don't know how the meta would shake out for sure. Everybody thought that Aegislash getting banned would make Pheromosa even more busted. However, it seems like Pheromosa has instead become talked about less and less as a problem for the meta. We were wrong in our predictions of how a ban would impact the power of a single mon, let alone how a ban could impact the entire meta and the playstyles therein.

tl;dr- Don't let your thoughts/predictions about stall impact your voting on Genesect.

P.S. In the interest of transparency, there's no way I will ever meet the req's for this, but I would vote ban if I could.

 

[bird crew]

One major aspect of this suspect which hasn't really been addressed is the issue of paper vs practice, or rather, how well Genesect does something in theory vs in reality.

On paper, Genesect is a total menace. There's no need to get into this much, but we all know there's 0 mons that 100% counter Gene and it has U-turn etc. It is a major offensive threat, and in theory, can completely take advantage of any switchin.

That being said, how does Genesect actually play out? Much like Pheromosa, albeit not to the same extent, Genesect can't exactly switch in frequently, and doesn't 1v1 that many pokemon. It isn't frail per se, but it's not exactly avoiding a 2hko from any offensive pokemon at all. While Gene's typing is theoretically ideal for countering Mega Metagross, as we see with Mega Scizor, it actually dies to Mash + Hammer, and Scarf Flamethrower can't even kill. The same applies with even Tapu Lele, and many other offensive pokemon when attacking Gene. In the case of defensive pokemon, you can say that Genesect 2hkos Amoonguss and Celesteela, but it can't exactly 1v1 them. Sure Gene can come in on a Giga or a Protect respectively, but it fails to OHKO and is killed or slept in return. These are only examples, but the same type of scenarios occur very frequently.

In a vacuum, Genesect is an uncounterable offensive juggernaut. Despite this theoretical prowess, it isn't all that overpowered in a real game. It doesn't switch in vs a lot, being 2hko'd or ohko'd by every offensive pokemon, and fails to 1v1 many as well. It is not that a rather frail pokemon like Greninja in ORAS should never be banned, but rather Genesect simply isn't too overwhelming on either side to be banworthy.

Much of the discussion in this thread has been far too theoretical, so it would be best if we took into account the practical uses of Genesect in a real match.

While Genesect may play out different in practice than on paper, this post doesn't do an adequate job of showing what Genesect can do throughout a game. Genesect should never be used to directly switch into Mega-Metagross, Mega-Scizor, or Tapu-Lele, and it also doesn't need to win a majority of 1v1s to be considered ban-worthy. Genesect's most dangerous quality is its ability to generate momentum throughout a match while picking off its many supposed checks. Genesect's inability to counter the mons it can on paper is irrelevant to whether or not it is incredibly restrictive on the rest of the tier.

Let's take these two games played between user ABR and user Dice:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-226856

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-226853

In game one, Genesects on both teams are able to rip apart two Landorus-Is, a Heatran, a Tapu-Fini, revenge kill a Weavile, and break down a Mega-Pinsir due to poor predictions that show just how difficult it is to successfully guess the item and coverage of the opposing Genesect. Genesect is also able to repeatedly force switches and generate momentum throughout the match, and singlehandedly breaks down user Dice's team to allow user ABR to secure an easy win.

In game two, we see user Dice's choice banded Genesect absolutely rip apart user ABR's team. Contrary to user ABR's post, Genesect is able to successfully 1v1 a Landorus-I and an Amoongus before user ABR forfeits the game. While on paper Genesect should lose that matchup, in practice it frequently has the ability break through many of the mons it shouldn't.

To me, Gensect appears ban-worthy due to its coverage and ability to generate momentum seen in the first replay, and quite frankly should be enough of a reason on its own to demand a ban. The fact that additional Genesect sets can break the few checks it has on paper that are supposed to contain it, such as in the second replay, just creates a better case as to why Genesect should be removed fromthe OU tier.

 

[GH[O]ST]

While Genesect may play out different in practice than on paper, this post doesn't do an adequate job of showing what Genesect can do throughout a game. Genesect should never be used to directly switch into Mega-Metagross, Mega-Scizor, or Tapu-Lele, and it also doesn't need to win a majority of 1v1s to be considered ban-worthy. Genesect's most dangerous quality is its ability to generate momentum throughout a match while picking off its many supposed checks. Genesect's inability to counter the mons it can on paper is irrelevant to whether or not it is incredibly restrictive on the rest of the tier.

Let's take these two games played between user ABR and user Dice:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-226856

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-226853

In game one, Genesects on both teams are able to rip apart two Landorus-Is, a Heatran, a Tapu-Fini, revenge kill a Weavile, and break down a Mega-Pinsir due to poor predictions that show just how difficult it is to successfully guess the item and coverage of the opposing Genesect. Genesect is also able to repeatedly force switches and generate momentum throughout the match, and singlehandedly breaks down user Dice's team to allow user ABR to secure an easy win.

In game two, we see user Dice's choice banded Genesect absolutely rip apart user ABR's team. Contrary to user ABR's post, Genesect is able to successfully 1v1 a Landorus-I and an Amoongus before user ABR forfeits the game. While on paper Genesect should lose that matchup, in practice it frequently has the ability break through many of the mons it shouldn't.

To me, Gensect appears ban-worthy due to its coverage and ability to generate momentum seen in the first replay, and quite frankly should be enough of a reason on its own to demand a ban. The fact that additional Genesect sets can break the few checks it has on paper that are supposed to contain it, such as in the second replay, just creates a better case as to why Genesect should be removed fromthe OU tier.

I don't see how those two games support the idea of Genesect being broken.

In the first game, Dice simply did not play optimally against Genesect. You don't mess around setting up rocks with a Heatran (or Lando) on a Genesect without having any clue as to what it's running. If Dice had a mega Venusaur or Amoongus instead of Heatran, it would be a good play to just stay in and chill. If Dice had simply attacked it instead of going for the SR, the supposedly broken threat would have been gone.

Regarding the second game - if by "rip apart user ABR's team" you mean hax him to death, then yea you're right. That game was basically Genesect flinching ABR's 2 methods of scouting Genesect to death. If you think that's broken, you might as well ban mega Metagross because it can screw counters like Quagsire with flinches or get stack attack boosts with meteor mash to muscle past the Skarmorys and Lando-Ts. Hax happens.

 

[bird crew]

I don't see how those two games support the idea of Genesect being broken.

In the first game, Dice simply did not play optimally against Genesect. You don't mess around setting up rocks with a Heatran (or Lando) on a Genesect without having any clue as to what it's running. If Dice had a mega Venusaur or Amoongus instead of Heatran, it would be a good play to just stay in and chill. If Dice had simply attacked it instead of going for the SR, the supposedly broken threat would have been gone.

Regarding the second game - if by "rip apart user ABR's team" you mean hax him to death, then yea you're right. That game was basically Genesect flinching ABR's 2 methods of scouting Genesect to death. If you think that's broken, you might as well ban mega Metagross because it can screw counters like Quagsire with flinches or get stack attack boosts with meteor mash to muscle past the Skarmorys and Lando-Ts. Hax happens.

Spending the beginning of every match scouting out the opposing player's Genesect set just to have them pivot around on you and risk them setting up is a hassle to say the least. Even if you correctly predict their coverage with your Mega-Venusaur or Amoongus, having to keep those ons healthy throughout the game while the Genesect will continue to whittle you down is even more frustrating. While Dice might not have played as "optimally" as you say, Genesect's incredible risk-reward ratio resulted in Dice had 3 mons OHKO'd because he didn't have either a Mega-Venusaur or Amoongus to scout the set.

While its true that hax does happen, a 20% chance for Genesect to break one of maybe two or three mons that can put a stop to it in the tier is a little ridiculous. When you have to switch in multiple times throughout a match (especially with prior damage and hazards), dealing with Genesect becomes difficult for any team in the meta. Your comparison to Mega-Metagross doesn't really make sense considering how it lacks the same versatility and pivoting ability while also taking up a mega-slot. While Mega-Metagross can perhaps hax out a Landorus-T, it doesn't create nearly as many 50-50s when trying to force it out once again.

 

[BeardyBennett]

If Dice had a mega Venusaur or Amoongus instead of Heatran, it would be a good play to just stay in and chill.

Isn't it a bit ridiculous though that you basically have to use one of these two mons? Actually, you can scratch Amoonguss off that list as well given that Genesect will often have one of (if not both) fire or ice coverage. Heck, even Mega-Venu can't switch in if it hasn't gotten to Mega because ice and fire wouldn't be neutral hits. Even if we're just talking purely about using these two for scouting purposes in the early game, Genesect still naturally outspeeds and could simply just U-Turn. Sure this gives you some amount of info, but your plan to use these two for scouting still doesn't tell you if it's scarfed or not, if its mixed or not, and what its other three potentially Download-boosted moves are. This mon requires so much extensive scouting that by the time you know what it is, you may very well have lost multiple mons.

And as I said earlier, if Amoonguss and M-Venu are your ideal answers/scouting options to the point that their presence or lack of determines the outcome of a matchup against Genesect, doesn't that mean Genesect is extremely centralizing? Doesn't that limit and restrict teambuilding to say those two mons have to be on a team? I get that this probably isn't what you were saying, but it definitely implies it. It implies that in order to handle Genesect and effectively scout it, you MUST have one of the two.

My point here is that the argument of, "well if you have mon x or y then you're fine" is actually counter-productive and only supports pro-ban. Because needing to use one of a handful of mons (when in all reality you actually need a couple from that handful) means that Genesect does in fact restrict and constrain teambuilding in the meta.

P.S. sorry for any errors, on mobile

 

[Orga777]

I can't even believe this is even a discussion. Genesect is clearly broken and can fit on pretty much ANY offensive team with such ease and with no real drawback that it really is common sense that it shouldn't be around. It is nearly impossible to scout effectively since it can be anything it wants to be. without potentially killing something, good luck figuring out its move set. Heck, even shiny Gen isn't easy to scout anymore since at least blunderr, if not others, have stashed HP Ground on the Hasty Nature to lure in the Heatran's and A-Marow's just to blow them away by bluffing E-Speed. The only easy one to scout is Douse Drive, but that one obliterates most of its counters anyway, especially if on a rain team with Thunder. That is another thing. Counters. Nothing is a check to this thing until you know the full set. Until you know the full set, it is like playing Russian Roulette. How is that healthy for the meta? The only good thing about Genesect in the current meta is that it contains another obnoxiously broken mon that is easily splashable in Tapu Lele (who deserves its own Suspect Test.)

I love Genesect as much as anyone. One of my favorite mons to use and in general, but it is just ridiculously good. Just get rid of this thing.

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

I can't even believe this is even a discussion. Genesect is clearly broken and can fit on pretty much ANY offensive team with such ease and with no real drawback that it really is common sense that it shouldn't be around. It is nearly impossible to scout effectively since it can be anything it wants to be. without potentially killing something, good luck figuring out its move set. Heck, even shiny Gen isn't easy to scout anymore since at least blunderr, if not others, have stashed HP Ground on the Hasty Nature to lure in the Heatran's and A-Marow's just to blow them away by bluffing E-Speed. The only easy one to scout is Douse Drive, but that one obliterates most of its counters anyway, especially if on a rain team with Thunder. That is another thing. Counters. Nothing is a check to this thing until you know the full set. Until you know the full set, it is like playing Russian Roulette. How is that healthy for the meta? The only good thing about Genesect in the current meta is that it contains another obnoxiously broken mon that is easily splashable in Tapu Lele (who deserves its own Suspect Test.)

Just get rid of this thing.

Well by standard definition (making more skillful play irrelevant) - it's not actually broken. The reason Gene is on the chopping block is it's flexibility (which you have mentioned), alas counterplay is what we have been discussing and the best ways of scouting for specific sets (although we do not expect you to read through 7 pages of this forum, if you have I congratulate you with great applause).

With that (and as I have mentioned a couple of times before) - has it not crossed your mind the possibility of logic checking an opponents team preview? Examples being the possibility of HP Ground on teams that look like they would otherwise loose to Heatran/Magnezone or similar, The possibility of carrying Bug Buzz and/or Flamethrower alongside Manaphy / Azumarill and various other waters... hell, even Steelium Z on teams that look as though nothing else could be carrying a Z-move. Does that give you any ideas?

 

[Huntofthelion]

Spending the beginning of every match scouting out the opposing player's Genesect set just to have them pivot around on you and risk them setting up is a hassle to say the least. Even if you correctly predict their coverage with your Mega-Venusaur or Amoongus, having to keep those ons healthy throughout the game while the Genesect will continue to whittle you down is even more frustrating. While Dice might not have played as "optimally" as you say, Genesect's incredible risk-reward ratio resulted in Dice had 3 mons OHKO'd because he didn't have either a Mega-Venusaur or Amoongus to scout the set.


While its true that hax does happen, a 20% chance for Genesect to break one of maybe two or three mons that can put a stop to it in the tier is a little ridiculous. When you have to switch in multiple times throughout a match (especially with prior damage and hazards), dealing with Genesect becomes difficult for any team in the meta. Your comparison to Mega-Metagross doesn't really make sense considering how it lacks the same versatility and pivoting ability while also taking up a mega-slot. While Mega-Metagross can perhaps hax out a Landorus-T, it doesn't create nearly as many 50-50s when trying to force it out once again.

In regards to your first paragraph, scouting is a part of playing the game. There are other Pokemon that can blow through their switch ins with tailored move sets, it doesn't necessarily make something broken. I agree that Genesect puts a lot of pressure on other teams to respond to it, but I don't think it's unique in that aspect. As far as having to keep your checks to it alive throughout the match, that is the case for any Pokemon that can function in the early / mid game phases. The point a lot of people are trying to make is that once you know a Genesect's set, it does have checks that can do so pretty reliably. Figuring out it's set requires more than just knowing what Genesect commonly runs, but it's not impossible to make pretty educated guesses and adjust accordingly.

For the second paragraph...what? A 20% chance to flinch is not relevant to whether or not Genesect is broken. There are plenty of Pokemon that with hazards + prior damage become very hard to switch into multiple times. That is something you need to think about when you see the other player's team and react accordingly. If you get haxed it sucks, but it is also part of the game and 20% isn't enough to make something noncompetitive.

I can't even believe this is even a discussion. Genesect is clearly broken and can fit on pretty much ANY offensive team with such ease and with no real drawback that it really is common sense that it shouldn't be around. It is nearly impossible to scout effectively since it can be anything it wants to be. without potentially killing something, good luck figuring out its move set. Heck, even shiny Gen isn't easy to scout anymore since at least blunderr, if not others, have stashed HP Ground on the Hasty Nature to lure in the Heatran's and A-Marow's just to blow them away by bluffing E-Speed. The only easy one to scout is Douse Drive, but that one obliterates most of its counters anyway, especially if on a rain team with Thunder. That is another thing. Counters. Nothing is a check to this thing until you know the full set. Until you know the full set, it is like playing Russian Roulette. How is that healthy for the meta? The only good thing about Genesect in the current meta is that it contains another obnoxiously broken mon that is easily splashable in Tapu Lele (who deserves its own Suspect Test.)


I love Genesect as much as anyone. One of my favorite mons to use and in general, but it is just ridiculously good. Just get rid of this thing.

I would hesitate to say things like this because when you try to dismiss the other side's argument in this way you're just going to upset them and make them harder to convince.

Genesect can fit on pretty much every offensive team, it's sets are very varied, and if you guess incorrectly you are going to get punished for it. That's all true, but its also true for other Pokemon. As others have mentioned, it's not impossible to make educated guesses about Genesect when it's in the context of a 6v6 match, and then use those guesses to evaluate the risk / reward of switching / staying in on it with different things. I'm not saying this is an easy process to do, but I am saying it's doable and I think it is a mistake to dismiss this type of counter play like it never happens.

Well by standard definition (making more skillful play irrelevant) - it's not actually broken. The reason Gene is on the chopping block is it's flexibility (which you have mentioned), alas counterplay is what we have been discussing and the best ways of scouting for specific sets (although we do not expect you to read through 7 pages of this forum, if you have I congratulate you with great applause).


With that (and as I have mentioned a couple of times before) - has it not crossed your mind the possibility of logic checking an opponents team preview? Examples being the possibility of HP Ground on teams that look like they would otherwise loose to Heatran/Magnezone or similar, The possibility of carrying Bug Buzz and/or Flamethrower alongside Manaphy / Azumarill and various other waters... hell, even Steelium Z on teams that look as though nothing else could be carrying a Z-move. Does that give you any ideas?

On the other hand, I think this is sort of overstating how effective that logical reasoning can be. This is like saying the other team has Heatran + something that appreciates my bulky waters being dead, so I should be wary of the trapping set. It's accurate, and making that sort of guess does let you sometimes play around a dangerous strategy from the other team. Sometimes the problem with Genesect, and what I think some other users have probably already tried/successfully said, is that the amount of damage Genesect gets off when you try to play around it's different sets is too much. Knowing its set is valuable, but it's part of a team that was designed with that set in mind, and sometimes it can feel like the cost of scouting the Genesect set makes it very difficult to play back at the other team.

It's important to remember that while you're trying to make all these plays that there is a human on the other end of the battle who is also capable of thinking logically. They know what their team looks like, they know what sets it would make sense for them to be running, and they can adjust accordingly. I think that a Genesect in the hands of a competent player is one of the scariest things available in this tier, but as of now I'm unsure of how I plan on voting.

 

[oreofestar]

I can't even believe this is even a discussion. Genesect is clearly broken and can fit on pretty much ANY offensive team with such ease and with no real drawback that it really is common sense that it shouldn't be around.

I agree Genesect is broken but not because it can easily fit on any offensive team without major drawbacks , if that is a reason for being broken then Lando T is the most broken mon in OU.

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

On the other hand, I think this is sort of overstating how effective that logical reasoning can be. This is like saying the other team has Heatran + something that appreciates my bulky waters being dead, so I should be wary of the trapping set. It's accurate, and making that sort of guess does let you sometimes play around a dangerous strategy from the other team. Sometimes the problem with Genesect, and what I think some other users have probably already tried/successfully said, is that the amount of damage Genesect gets off when you try to play around it's different sets is too much. Knowing its set is valuable, but it's part of a team that was designed with that set in mind, and sometimes it can feel like the cost of scouting the Genesect set makes it very difficult to play back at the other team.

It's important to remember that while you're trying to make all these plays that there is a human on the other end of the battle who is also capable of thinking logically. They know what their team looks like, they know what sets it would make sense for them to be running, and they can adjust accordingly. I think that a Genesect in the hands of a competent player is one of the scariest things available in this tier, but as of now I'm unsure of how I plan on voting.

Exactly. I'm not saying you'll get it right every single time, but I think it strengthens a players mental fortitude to do so. Maybe this is what a couple of people meant when they thought Gene' actually raises the skill required to play. I know that comes across as 'guessing', but I believe logic checking a mon akin to it's place on the opposing team is the fine line between tossing a coin (Aegi) and a process of elimination list of about 20+ options (and believe me, I'm one of the vocal minority who thinks Aegi should have stayed). Not to say 'I'm with stupid' - but you wouldn't see ScarfChomp on Mega Sableye teams, would you? I believe we can all agree on that.

Before I end off this post - I find your analogy of Heatran + assassin of bulky waters a little confusing (not for why it would work, but for it's placement within the paragraph). Are we saying Heatran is the trapper in this case? Please explain further.

 

[Orga777]

I agree Genesect is broken but not because it can easily fit on any offensive team without major drawbacks , if that is a reason for being broken then Lando T is the most broken mon in OU.

Don't get me started on Lando-T... It isn't broken since that thing can be revenged killed and chased off rather easily, but I would love for it to be banned just so there would be more creative teambuilding made possible. Instead of going "well, I COULD run a different bulky mon that has rocks... or I can just run Lando-T like everyone else since nothing is better." Such a sleep inducing mon seeing it on every team.

Well by standard definition (making more skillful play irrelevant) - it's not actually broken. The reason Gene is on the chopping block is it's flexibility (which you have mentioned), alas counterplay is what we have been discussing and the best ways of scouting for specific sets (although we do not expect you to read through 7 pages of this forum, if you have I congratulate you with great applause).

With that (and as I have mentioned a couple of times before) - has it not crossed your mind the possibility of logic checking an opponents team preview? Examples being the possibility of HP Ground on teams that look like they would otherwise loose to Heatran/Magnezone or similar, The possibility of carrying Bug Buzz and/or Flamethrower alongside Manaphy / Azumarill and various other waters... hell, even Steelium Z on teams that look as though nothing else could be carrying a Z-move. Does that give you any ideas?

Team Preview only goes so far, though. People can still run whatever they want on Genesect, and switching into it is so far ill-advised that I don't know what an easy solution would be. You see, Genesect, more than almost any other mon in OU is a host unto itself. It can just sit there and murder things if you so much as guess wrong. then you have one less mon to use against the other five mons on your opponents team. If someone once to run HP Ground on their Genesect if they have another two mons that have ground coverage already, why not? Makes it less worrisome to switch out against threats like Heatran. It is still a good lure in that case. Again, you can make "assumptions" with team preview. But you know what they say about assuming...

 

[BeardyBennett]

Okay, so this may be a bit of a dumb question. And if it is, I apologize for asking it and wasting time. Is there a universal check for Genesect? Is there something that walls Genesect regardless of its set, without that check running a gimmicky set? Basically, is there a mon that can check Genesect while still filling a role beyond just checking Genesect?

The only thing I've managed to come up with is maybe Chansey and Blissey, given that (if memory serves) Genesect doesn't get any sort of ridiculous Fighting coverage, or at least nothing that would be on any of its 8 or so standard sets. However, I don't honestly know how well those two stand up to the Shift Gear set, especially if it gets the Download attack boost on top of the Shift Gear boost while possibly having Life Orb.

I've seen people mention Toxapex, but BoltBeam is of course a thing. Amoonguss has been brought up but that gets hit by Ice Beam/Flamethrower/Blaze Kick which are all fairly common as well. There's also been talk of Skarm but, again, Tbolt. Alolawak and Heatran get bopped by HP Ground.

My other thought, as was mentioned just a couple posts earlier, is Mega-Venusaur assuming that it has Mega'd before trying to switch in. Otherwise, no Thick Fat. However, Mega-Venu is then limited if it's a non-HP Fire set, and I don't know how "standard" an HP Fire set actually is (personally it's how I always run it). Otherwise, good luck doing anything to said Genesect.

So, as far as I can tell, that leaves you with three mons to work with that reliably check Genesect across the board, but that's assuming Shift Gear sets don't wreck Chansey/Blissey as mentioned earlier. Wow, talk about limiting and constraining teambuilding.

Now, I've heard plenty of people say you can make guesses as to the Genesect set based on the opposing team and stuff and check accordingly. Well, what if you don't have the check for the Genesect in question? What if you're wrong in your guesses? What if your opponent has doubled up in some areas (i.e. having Extremespeed despite already having a priority mon, or having BoltBeam even when another mon on the team might have BoltBeam)? So again, you'd HAVE to run one of those three mons I just mentioned to ensure you can beat most Genesects across the board. You'd HAVE to run one of three universal checks, or else you're essentially losing to Genesect right from team preview. And I won't even get into U-Turn and Genesect's possible teammates making those universal checks potentially irrelevant in actual practice.

TL;DR- (Barring Shift Gear sets wrecking Chansey and Blissey) Chansey, Blissey, and HP Fire Mega Venusaur are the only universal Genesect checks I can think of off the top of my head. Not having a universal check means you're praying not to run into certain sets. This extremely limits teambuilding options and the meta as a whole.

 

[Orga777]

Okay, so this may be a bit of a dumb question. And if it is, I apologize for asking it and wasting time. Is there a universal check for Genesect? Is there something that walls Genesect regardless of its set, without that check running a gimmicky set? Basically, is there a mon that can check Genesect while still filling a role beyond just checking Genesect?

The only thing I've managed to come up with is maybe Chansey and Blissey, given that (if memory serves) Genesect doesn't get any sort of ridiculous Fighting coverage, or at least nothing that would be on any of its 8 or so standard sets. However, I don't honestly know how well those two stand up to the Shift Gear set, especially if it gets the Download attack boost on top of the Shift Gear boost while possibly having Life Orb.

Banded Iron Head does at minimum 57% to Chansey without a Download boost to ATK if it is the MAX Def/Max SpD. Max HP Max Def takes at minimum 51.9%. Chansey and Blissey can wall the Special sets easily, but any physical sets or mixed sets murder them.

 

[SurfAllDay]

I personally think Genesect should not be banned. The reasoning is quite simple, if it is banned stall becomes more prevalent, and I think thats harmful for the meta. Sure, banded U-turn hits hard, however I think Pokemon is its most fun when we have balanced/HO teams going at it. Furthermore, it is not broken like people claim, if you run scarf it becomes extremely hard to OHKO things, and if you choose the band route your getting out-speed by pretty much everything. Also, I think download works slightly like beast boost as in you can anticipate when a mon has lower def/spdef and choose the right time to send it out. Thats just what I like to call strategy, and if you feel uncomfortable dealing with that then I think thats not the pokemon's fault but your own.

 

[Orga777]

I personally think Genesect should not be banned. The reasoning is quite simple, if it is banned stall becomes more prevalent, and I think thats harmful for the meta. Sure, banded U-turn hits hard, however I think Pokemon is its most fun when we have balanced/HO teams going at it. Furthermore, it is not broken like people claim, if you run scarf it becomes extremely hard to OHKO things, and if you choose the band route your getting out-speed by pretty much everything. Also, I think download works slightly like beast boost as in you can anticipate when a mon has lower def/spdef and choose the right time to send it out. Thats just what I like to call strategy, and if you feel uncomfortable dealing with that then I think thats not the pokemon's fault but your own.

Guess the set between 8 of them and come back to me. When your "counters" are killed because you guess wrong on a mon that can beat all of its "counters" then, I don't know what to tell you. Also, Stall being more prevalent means nothing for a ban. Stall may suck, but Genesect's mindless click buttons and win isn't any better.

 

[Huntofthelion]

Before I end off this post - I find your analogy of Heatran + assassin of bulky waters a little confusing (not for why it would work, but for it's placement within the paragraph). Are we saying Heatran is the trapper in this case? Please explain further.

I'm referring to the Grassium Z Solar Beam + Magma Storm Heatran set that lures in bulky waters, traps them on the switch with Magma Storm, and then uses Bloom Doom to kill them. The point being that you can look at the other player's team in team preview and make guesses as to what possible lures they may be running to execute their strategy. If you see a team that looks like it struggles to eliminate bulky waters but has a Heatran, you should at least be wary of the trapping set. This was reaffirming that you could use team preview + information gathered about other members of a team to help formulate your guesses about as of yet unrevealed move sets on the opponent's team.

Okay, so this may be a bit of a dumb question. And if it is, I apologize for asking it and wasting time. Is there a universal check for Genesect? Is there something that walls Genesect regardless of its set, without that check running a gimmicky set? Basically, is there a mon that can check Genesect while still filling a role beyond just checking Genesect?

The only thing I've managed to come up with is maybe Chansey and Blissey, given that (if memory serves) Genesect doesn't get any sort of ridiculous Fighting coverage, or at least nothing that would be on any of its 8 or so standard sets. However, I don't honestly know how well those two stand up to the Shift Gear set, especially if it gets the Download attack boost on top of the Shift Gear boost while possibly having Life Orb.

I've seen people mention Toxapex, but BoltBeam is of course a thing. Amoonguss has been brought up but that gets hit by Ice Beam/Flamethrower/Blaze Kick which are all fairly common as well. There's also been talk of Skarm but, again, Tbolt. Alolawak and Heatran get bopped by HP Ground.

My other thought, as was mentioned just a couple posts earlier, is Mega-Venusaur assuming that it has Mega'd before trying to switch in. Otherwise, no Thick Fat. However, Mega-Venu is then limited if it's a non-HP Fire set, and I don't know how "standard" an HP Fire set actually is (personally it's how I always run it). Otherwise, good luck doing anything to said Genesect.

So, as far as I can tell, that leaves you with three mons to work with that reliably check Genesect across the board, but that's assuming Shift Gear sets don't wreck Chansey/Blissey as mentioned earlier. Wow, talk about limiting and constraining teambuilding.

Now, I've heard plenty of people say you can make guesses as to the Genesect set based on the opposing team and stuff and check accordingly. Well, what if you don't have the check for the Genesect in question? What if you're wrong in your guesses? What if your opponent has doubled up in some areas (i.e. having Extremespeed despite already having a priority mon, or having BoltBeam even when another mon on the team might have BoltBeam)? So again, you'd HAVE to run one of those three mons I just mentioned to ensure you can beat most Genesects across the board. You'd HAVE to run one of three universal checks, or else you're essentially losing to Genesect right from team preview. And I won't even get into U-Turn and Genesect's possible teammates making those universal checks potentially irrelevant in actual practice.

TL;DR- (Barring Shift Gear sets wrecking Chansey and Blissey) Chansey, Blissey, and HP Fire Mega Venusaur are the only universal Genesect checks I can think of off the top of my head. Not having a universal check means you're praying not to run into certain sets. This extremely limits teambuilding options and the meta as a whole.

I understand where you're coming from, but I think this is more of a paper argument as opposed to being a practical argument. Unless you're playing stall your method of dealing with a pokemon should not always just be having a hard switch in to it. As some players better than me have said better than I could, stall doesn't really struggle with Genesect and definitely not to the extent that offense does, so I'm not gonna really touch on that.

In terms of offensive teams, Genesect undoubtedly puts a ton of pressure on offensive teams, but a lot of posts I'm seeing are assuming that Genesect can come in whenever it wants, force whatever is in to switch out, and then kill whatever switches in or U-turn out free of cost. That isn't really how things play out though because Genesect can't come in risk free whenever it wants, and while it has decent bulk it isn't taking strong hits repeatedly from anything. When you're team building, you are aware of Genesect and you know which sets will bother your team the most, and as a result you can try to limit how many things said Genesect can come in with little cost. There are multiple Pokemon in this tier and past tiers that have no switch in if they can run their entire viable move pool, but they can't. Genesect is a threat that you should be prepared to both check as best you can, and be able to punish when it gets a kill by having something that can come in and pressure it effectively. The mindset that there is no switch in to every Genesect set doesn't really capture the way that an offensive team would play in regards to Genesect.

As others have said Genesect is a pretty unique Pokemon, and it is incredibly strong. But I think the conversation should focus on whether or not it is broken in practice, and not if on paper it is impossible to switch into.