Announcement np: SM OU Suspect Process, Round 1 - Digital Love - Genesect is now banned

[Shouting]

From reading (most) of this thread, it seems like the occurring pro ban belief is that is has too many sets that you can't pack one pokemon to cover all of them, and even if you do have that counter in your team, U-turn exists. Now, I'm not pro-ban or anti-ban necessarily. Personally I have no problems with Genesect, although it is annoying and I can see why people want it gone. (For the time being, Flame Body is pretty funny to use against Genesect)


The problem with this pro ban argument is that people forget that LANDO-T EXISTS.

This thing can run just as many if not more sets than Genesect, including Scarf, Double Dance, Life Orb, Skystrike, Defensive, Rock Polish, Swords Dance hell, even CALM MIND (which is actually legit believe it or not). I'm sure it can run Band too although I haven't used it personally. It actually has defensive synergy and utility unlike Genesect.

Nothing can counter all of these sets. Physically defensive Celesteela/Skarm get bodied by Swords Dance at +2

+2 252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Continental Crush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 328-387 (82.4 - 97.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Btw Celesteela does like 40% with Heavy Slam)

+2 252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Continental Crush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 265-312 (79.3 - 93.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock



Amoongus, Tangrowth, Bulu, and basically and other grass type gets bodied by Skystrike sets even with no investment, in addition to most Calm Mind sets
Tapu Fini loses to +2 CC and Calm Mind sets, besides it can't even OHKO unless it has Hydro Pump (which needs an absolute max roll to KO).
Zapdos can't switch into stone edge
Hell, Bronzong and Claydol get a +2 Knock Off to the face
Chesnaught can't take Skystrike

Life Orb sets destory offensive switch ins like Starmie, Greninja, Zapdos, Charizard, Weavile (if you got nothing to lose), etc. etc.

And to top it all off, IT HAS U-TURN!!!!

Like if you're really bothered by Genesect having so many sets that are impossible to counter with one pokemon, you should do the same with Lando-T (which has existed for as many gens as Genesect)

Again, not saying that Genesect should stay or go, but this argument ticks me off.

 

[GH[O]ST]

Spending the beginning of every match scouting out the opposing player's Genesect set just to have them pivot around on you and risk them setting up is a hassle to say the least. Even if you correctly predict their coverage with your Mega-Venusaur or Amoongus, having to keep those ons healthy throughout the game while the Genesect will continue to whittle you down is even more frustrating. While Dice might not have played as "optimally" as you say, Genesect's incredible risk-reward ratio resulted in Dice had 3 mons OHKO'd because he didn't have either a Mega-Venusaur or Amoongus to scout the set.

While its true that hax does happen, a 20% chance for Genesect to break one of maybe two or three mons that can put a stop to it in the tier is a little ridiculous. When you have to switch in multiple times throughout a match (especially with prior damage and hazards), dealing with Genesect becomes difficult for any team in the meta. Your comparison to Mega-Metagross doesn't really make sense considering how it lacks the same versatility and pivoting ability while also taking up a mega-slot. While Mega-Metagross can perhaps hax out a Landorus-T, it doesn't create nearly as many 50-50s when trying to force it out once again.

Dice didn't need to have a Mega-Venusaur or Amoongus to avoid having 2 Pokemon OHKO'd and Heatran almost OHKOd.

Genesect vs Heatran. The way everything turned out was in the favor of ABR, but let's not act like it's simply because Genesect is overpowered and ABR didn't have to take any risk whatsoever. Genesect failed to OHKO Heatran. Heatran got its stealth rocks up, OR it couldve OHKO'd Genesect. Dice then proceeded to give up momentum by giving ABR the free U-turn. HP Ground or not, staying in on a fully healthy heatran with an unknown set is a risk. It paid off for ABR. It wasn't even a total loss for Dice, since he got SR on the field, until he ceded momentum.

I don't know why Tapu Fini was sent in on Genesect and kept in. BoltBeam should be at the forefront of your mind when you see a non-choiced HP Ground Genesect.

I also don't know why Dice's very own Genesect didn't see heavy action. If Genesect is such a game changer then surely it wouldve helped mitigate the exploits of an opposing Genesect.

Dice could have handled Genesect better. If Genesect is as big and broken a threat as everyone claims, then Dice had the chance to OHKO it right in front of him on turn 1. Dice had his own Genesect. Dice himself said that he had underestimated Genesect when he tried to Quick Attack it with non-mega pinsir. This match hardly proves anything.

The second game doesn't show anything except for the fact that hax can go a long way. It wasn't even a surefire outcome at that point. Genesect was left at 16%, enough for rocky helmet to kill it and amoongus and ABR's genesect were still alive.

Meta Metagross is a monster that is difficult for even Skarmorys, Landos, and Ferrothorns to switch into since they all can get hit super effectively. Sure it lacks the sheer versatility of Genesect but it is just as difficult to switch into. There is really nothing (even shedinja gets hit by pursuit) that can safely switch into Mega-Metagross except for Mega Scizor.

Isn't it a bit ridiculous though that you basically have to use one of these two mons? Actually, you can scratch Amoonguss off that list as well given that Genesect will often have one of (if not both) fire or ice coverage. Heck, even Mega-Venu can't switch in if it hasn't gotten to Mega because ice and fire wouldn't be neutral hits. Even if we're just talking purely about using these two for scouting purposes in the early game, Genesect still naturally outspeeds and could simply just U-Turn. Sure this gives you some amount of info, but your plan to use these two for scouting still doesn't tell you if it's scarfed or not, if its mixed or not, and what its other three potentially Download-boosted moves are. This mon requires so much extensive scouting that by the time you know what it is, you may very well have lost multiple mons.

And as I said earlier, if Amoonguss and M-Venu are your ideal answers/scouting options to the point that their presence or lack of determines the outcome of a matchup against Genesect, doesn't that mean Genesect is extremely centralizing? Doesn't that limit and restrict teambuilding to say those two mons have to be on a team? I get that this probably isn't what you were saying, but it definitely implies it. It implies that in order to handle Genesect and effectively scout it, you MUST have one of the two.

My point here is that the argument of, "well if you have mon x or y then you're fine" is actually counter-productive and only supports pro-ban. Because needing to use one of a handful of mons (when in all reality you actually need a couple from that handful) means that Genesect does in fact restrict and constrain teambuilding in the meta.

P.S. sorry for any errors, on mobile

I didn't say the only way to scout Genesect is to carry Amoongus or Mega-Venusaur.

I said if you wanted a surefire Pokemon that can sit around on such threat like Genesect and not attack, then those are your best.

The point I am making is not "if you carry mon x or y then you're fine." In fact it is the opposite. The point I support is the one stated by ABR in the first page.The fact of the matter is that Genesect is not some untouchable 1-unit wrecking crew. It is threatened by various tactics and strategies despite the fact it threatens so much on paper.

 

[TCTphantom]

Currently Laddering for reqs, at around 2000 coil in about 30 games one one account, and probably like 75 good games in total this meta, figures i would give my thoughts on the suspect and current meta.

Genesect is a very powerful pokemon, there is no sense in denying that. With a beautiful amount of coverage moves, a fantastic ability, and a solid typing, Genesect is a force to be reckoned with. These bountiful powerful quantities will always make Genesect a potent force in the meta. Genesect is adaptable. With multiple powerful sets (Phys Based Mix Scarf, Special Mix Scarf, Life Orb/Ebelt, Special Rock Polish, Shift Gear, Choice Band, Choice Specs, even Douse Drive to an extent), it should be no wonder that Genesect on paper and in practice is a very potent mon. On paper, Genesect is incredibly difficult to switch into. Genesect is blessed with STAB U-Turn, Iron Head, Flash Cannon, and Bug Buzz, and great coverage moves like HP Ground, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Flamethower, Energy Ball, and even has potent priority with Extremespeed. On paper, this all makes Genesect seem like a beast for balance and offense to deal with.

In practice though, Genesect is not as scary as it sounds. 4MSS is something powerful mons like Genesect and Greninja suffer from, and it is very apparent with Genesect. On paper, the fact that Genesect can carry moves like Energy Ball or HP Ground make pokemon that would be solid checks to it, like Heatran and Gastrodon, less appealing. However, 4MSS goes both ways. The only real move I would say you are near guaranteed to see on Genesect is Ice Beam, so scouting against Genesect is very important. Trapping with Dugtrio is very useful to deal with Heatran, Toxapex and Volcanion, three decent checks to Genesect provided it does not have the right coverage, making Genesect seem even more daunting. But oftentimes, Genesect will be stuck in scenarios where it does not have the ability to pivot out as easily as desired or hit everything with its stab. While Genesect has better bulk than some offensive mons, it is nothing to brag about. As such, many neutral hits that hit decently hard (and even some strong resisted ones), will put a toll on Genesect. This puts a burden of prediction on the Genesect user as well. Should they predict right, there is a lot of reward. If they predict wrong, Genesect is going to take a heavy hit, or die outright. For most wallbreakers, like Kyurem B, Hoopa U, and even Tapu Lele to an extent, they have some form of bulk that lets them take one or two hits needed (Kyu B is fat af, Hoopa and Lele can take some special hits if needed). Genesect is not afforded this luxury as a wallbreaker. While hazards, notably rocks, are annoying to most mons that are not rock weak, Genesect takes particular annoyence. While the benefits of U Turn have been heavily discussed, there are also the 12.5% Genesect will take coming in. I think it is pretty safe to assume most genesect sets besides Shift Gear and Polish will be coming in anywhere from 2-3 times a match, and rocks will eat away at that. This makes Genesect frailer than it appears on paper. Granted, hazard removal is possible, but not as easy to fit onto offensive teams as one would like. There really is only one good, splashable spinner in OU rn in Excadrill (Starmie is outclassed by Greninja as an offensive water type on most teams, and rapid spin Pheromosa is bad). Defog support is more prevalent, but aside from Lati@s and to an extent Tapu Fini, most defoggers are hard to fit on offense. This all comes back to Genesect's 4MSS and bulk. If Genesect can not hit one pokemon on the opponents team hard, they either have to risk making a hard read, which could cost them Genesect in the long run, or U Turn out and take hazard damage. While there are several sets Genesect can have, scouting against them is possible.

The current meta right now from my experience (discounting the first 7 or so games on lower ladder) is decent, but not terribly different from the one we have now surprisingly. Tapu Lele and Ash Greninja are still the premier wallbreaking/sweeping threats in the tier (neither are broken imo). VenuTran is one of the most common cores in the game, if not the most common. Stall is still not dead, though it is notably not a fan of some pokemon in the meta (Hoopa U makes stall sad). The meta right now seems to be trending towards more of a bulky offense style, slowing down a little bit from the Genesect meta. But from my experience, the meta did not slow down as much as one would think. Aside from Genesect being powerful and annoying, the tier has not shifted much. People are still using the same potent cores that they were using with Genesect in the meta. This might just be lazy teambuilding/the meta not advancing yet, and likely that is a factor, but the meta still feels...alright. Certain matchups are still annoying, but less so than in Gen 6 OU. It is easier to prep for offense or stall or balance. The game does not feel as matchup reliant as it did in Gen 6 at points. And from my experience of watching battles and playing them in the suspect and pre suspect meta (moreso the last two weeks where things really settled down after all the new toy hype), Genesect does not strongly influence it one way or the other. Is he easy to use? Yes. Does he make teambuilding easier? Debatable, but I can agree with that. But in general, Genesect does not warp the meta as much as I would have expected going into this test.

Granted, I will state my biases. I am more conservative with my ideology on bans. I can understand how many people would see Genesect as a potent force in the meta, and easily a top five mon. I even agree with those sentiments. However, I do not see Genesect as the all powerful shark in a fish tank that many see it as. I believe Genesect is not metagame warping or outright broken to the extent others do, at least at this current time. Personally, I would be fine with retesting Genesect in 2-3 months, after the meta starts to settle down more.

TD;LR: Genesect is very strong, though still beatable. Not as warping as originally thought, No Ban, though should be looked at again in the future.

 

[Pyukumu-kukuku]

From reading (most) of this thread, it seems like the occurring pro ban belief is that is has too many sets that you can't pack one pokemon to cover all of them, and even if you do have that counter in your team, U-turn exists. Now, I'm not pro-ban or anti-ban necessarily. Personally I have no problems with Genesect, although it is annoying and I can see why people want it gone. (For the time being, Flame Body is pretty funny to use against Genesect)


The problem with this pro ban argument is that people forget that LANDO-T EXISTS.

This thing can run just as many if not more sets than Genesect, including Scarf, Double Dance, Life Orb, Skystrike, Defensive, Rock Polish, Swords Dance hell, even CALM MIND (which is actually legit believe it or not). I'm sure it can run Band too although I haven't used it personally. It actually has defensive synergy and utility unlike Genesect.

Nothing can counter all of these sets. Physically defensive Celesteela/Skarm get bodied by Swords Dance at +2

+2 252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Continental Crush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 328-387 (82.4 - 97.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Btw Celesteela does like 40% with Heavy Slam)

+2 252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Continental Crush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 265-312 (79.3 - 93.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock



Amoongus, Tangrowth, Bulu, and basically and other grass type gets bodied by Skystrike sets even with no investment, in addition to most Calm Mind sets
Tapu Fini loses to +2 CC and Calm Mind sets, besides it can't even OHKO unless it has Hydro Pump (which needs an absolute max roll to KO).
Zapdos can't switch into stone edge
Hell, Bronzong and Claydol get a +2 Knock Off to the face
Chesnaught can't take Skystrike

Life Orb sets destory offensive switch ins like Starmie, Greninja, Zapdos, Charizard, Weavile (if you got nothing to lose), etc. etc.

And to top it all off, IT HAS U-TURN!!!!

Like if you're really bothered by Genesect having so many sets that are impossible to counter with one pokemon, you should do the same with Lando-T (which has existed for as many gens as Genesect)

Again, not saying that Genesect should stay or go, but this argument ticks me off.

Comparatively, I'd say there is a significant gap between between Lando and Gene. Gene has 1 less weakness, 4 more resistances, 5 BP higher Def, 15 higher BP SpD, and 8 more BP speed. Intimidate vs Download is probably pretty even in effectiveness, so with that I won't look at the offensive stats because it gets pretty even/situational there. But a big thing is Lando is checked very hard by Ice Shard. There isn't a priority move that instills that much fear into Genesect because it gets E-speed as well.

I'll give it to Lando that it has higher HP but considering Gene can theoretically eat twice as many hits at half damage from resists, it doesn't seem like that large a factor (at least from my perspective).

 

[Scribble]

A couple of things I'd like to discuss.

First of all, I want to refute the comparison argument. I've noticed a lot of anti-ban people arguing that plenty of other things require to be scouted, plenty of other things require a check on every team, plenty of other things have no true counters, plenty of other things can pivot out on their checks, and plenty of other things can be put on to a team with ease.

Any single one of these things on their own would not make something broken, but I believe people are failing to see that us pro-ban players are not complaining about just one or two of these traits, rather it is the combination of all of these things that pushes Genesect over the top.

Take Tapu Bulu, for example. This Pokemon definitely needs to be scouted to see whether it is Banded, SubSeed, Stallbreaker, etc. However, it has true counters, cannot pivot, and isn't that splashable.

Tapu Koko is a powerful Pokemon that definitely requires a check on every team, and it can pivot out on its checks. But it has true counters such as Hippowdon and Alowak (Alowak outside of Brave Bird variants), and is a pretty linear mon that doesn't require much scouting unless you have reason to believe it is anything other than LO/Zap Plate 4 attacks.

I touched upon Kyurem-Black in my other post. It has no true counters either, but it can't pivot on its checks and is not splashable at all.

Mega Scizor can pivot out on its checks, but it rarely requires to be scouted, has true counters, and it takes up the Mega slot so it isn't as splashable.

Landorus-T can be put on nearly any team with ease, but it has counters in common Pokemon such as Rotom-Wash and Celesteela, and is pretty easy to scout what set it is.

All of these Pokemon are influential Pokemon in the OU metagame (Except Kyurem-B, I feel bad for that thing), but I doubt anyone would argue that they are broken.

Genesect, however, has every single one of these qualities and then some. It has an insane movepool, an amazing typing in Bug/Steel, can be physical or special, a large amount of viable sets, and an ability that guarantees it a +1 boost to its Attack or Special Attack at all times. (Side note: Pokemon are running certain EVs to manipulate what boost Genesect gets off of them, which seems to be a bit centralizing to me when combined with all of its other qualities.)


Next, the argument that Landorus-T possesses all the same traits as Genesect because of all the sets it can run, therefore if we ban Genesect then we must also ban Lando-T for the same reason. This bothers me, because, well, how many times a day do you see Calm Mind Lando-T? In all my playing of Gen 6 OU and Gen 7 OU, I have not come across this set once. I haven't even seen the thing hold a Life Orb as an item. The 3 sets I've ever seen are Defensive, Scarf, and Double Dance (Or just 1 Dance). I've also yet to see a Continental Crush Lando-T. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Supersonic Skystrike was generally agreed to be Lando-T's best option for a Z Move and Continental Crush is more situational. These calcs are also assuming that Lando-T has gotten the SD up. If it's a double dance set, then Rock Polish is the dance that nine times out of ten comes first, so it's more likely that you'll be stuck with only a +2 Speed on a Rotom-Wash or Celesteela as they Hydro/Leech Seed you respectively. If it's just solo SD, then Lando-T is going to be outsped by and revenge killed pretty easily. Furthermore, while Continental Crush sets do well versus counters to the Supersonic Skystrike set, they get checked by Mega Venusaur, Amoonguss, Tapu Bulu, and Tangrowth.

On the other hand, Genesect's 8 or so viable sets are all common. They aren't easy to figure out either unlike Lando-T, since Banded sets can run Ice Beam, and Specs sets can run U-turn, etc.

Finally, the issue of practice vs paper. In my climb on the suspect ladder, I've noticed that the meta has indeed slowed down a bit. Stall seems to be unaffected by this, so don't worry about that getting out of hand. The meta is pretty similar, but, in my opinion, has changed just enough where a ban on Genesect does legitimately help the tier in the long run. With Genesect gone, I no longer have to worry about which boost Genesect will be getting off of my mons in teambuilder, and the Which Genesect Variant Am I Roulette has closed. While it is possible to make an educated guess on Genesect's set in team preview, that's all it is - a guess. Genesect benefits from opponents being human, humans can guess wrong and make mistakes, which Genesect capitalizes on. Furthermore, if the Genesect player does happen to make a mistake, there is plenty of room for error because of how low risk high reward Genesect is. Despite this, I can recognize that Genesect is not invincible and it can be played around, but to the extent of how much it has to be played around is in my opinion enough to be considered unhealthy for the tier.

 

[pika pal]

I personally think Genesect should not be banned. The reasoning is quite simple, if it is banned stall becomes more prevalent, and I think thats harmful for the meta. Sure, banded U-turn hits hard, however I think Pokemon is its most fun when we have balanced/HO teams going at it. Furthermore, it is not broken like people claim, if you run scarf it becomes extremely hard to OHKO things, and if you choose the band route your getting out-speed by pretty much everything. Also, I think download works slightly like beast boost as in you can anticipate when a mon has lower def/spdef and choose the right time to send it out. Thats just what I like to call strategy, and if you feel uncomfortable dealing with that then I think thats not the pokemon's fault but your own.

In response to these

- Stall prevalence: This should not be what governs the ban. I'm not a Stall player, but it's better for us to aim for a competitive Stall meta post-Genesect than an unbalanced Offense Meta with Genesect (assuming of course either of these scenarios would be the case). We don't make current ban decisions based on a prospective future meta, only on whether the current meta benefits from the element's presence

- No one is expecting Genesect to do every job of all its sets in the same match, but the ability to reasonably bluff several of those sets which call for different counterplay is a massive constraint on team building and and ongoing burden that lays more heavily on Genesect's opponent than its user. No one is arguing that Genesect is broken, but he brings too great a disparity in risk-reward to be a fair element. And as a small addendum, while not a speed demon, Base 99 Speed is still acceptable for a mon with Genesect's power, Download, and access to Priority.

- Download is not comparable to Beast Boost in that manner. Download will activate immediately when Genesect enters the field, and besides favoring his options against the particular opponent, there's no condition attached to it. Beast Boost only activates in response to a KO, meaning that while it can snowball momentum, it's not particularly factoring into whether or not a UB generates it outright, Pheromosa. Furthermore, Beast Boost is derived from how the user is specced, and nothing else, effectively a semi-customizable Moxie. That said, it's going to be the same boost every single time it procs within a match, purely on the back of how the player built the UB. Genesect's Download boost is influenced in theory by two factors: When the user brings Genesect in, and what/if the opponent switches to before Genesect hits the field. Along that line, Genesect's Download is much more flexible aid to it, and the opponent can't fully control what boost they're going to be dealing with against Genesect, especially since the ability's premise is meant to favor whatever the opponent is weaker to in theory (even if this is obviously not how it always breaks down).

- "Thats just what I like to call strategy, and if you feel uncomfortable dealing with that then I think thats not the pokemon's fault but your own." As a closing note, this type of ad hominem and condescending does not help your case. If your argument is strong enough, it should be able to stand on its merits rather than undermine the opposite side with personal attacks.

With that (and as I have mentioned a couple of times before) - has it not crossed your mind the possibility of logic checking an opponents team preview? Examples being the possibility of HP Ground on teams that look like they would otherwise loose to Heatran/Magnezone or similar, The possibility of carrying Bug Buzz and/or Flamethrower alongside Manaphy / Azumarill and various other waters... hell, even Steelium Z on teams that look as though nothing else could be carrying a Z-move. Does that give you any ideas?

In the majority of cases, this can and should be the idea employed to counter play a versatile mon, but I don't think it's the most effective method with regards to Genesect, as several of Genesect's multiple sets can perform similarly enough to each other that they can bluff each other, if not almost substitute for each other at times.

Your later posted Scarfchomp example is a point, but part of why it works as such is because Scarfchomp's playstyle and role is very different from how LO or Tankchomp would play, so it's much harder to bluff it without outright playing it poorly, if the illusion is even possible in the first place. Genesect's Expert Belt, Z-move, and Scarf sets can be played much more similarly, such that the only surefire way to see what the set is would be for the move to change, Z-move to happen, or Genesect to outspeed something, and if the opponent is unveiling the identity of the set in such a manner, it's very likely they're in a position where they gain a sufficient advantage for doing so.

Besides this, Genesect's versatility and ability to lure for teams can go two ways. I posted a breakdown of an example earlier, essentially amounting to having Tapu Koko and Genesect one one team, alongside a strong Alolawak answer. The question then becomes if Genesect is another mon to support against Alolawak (via HP Ground) or be supported alongside Koko. These are two equally real possibilities that have to be considered by the Alolawak team, and they require very different counterplay that can be devastating should they guess wrong, whether directly via losing Alolawak (and thus being vulnerable to Koko cleaning) or over the course of a match from hesitating to use what could be their best Genesect check. I think that the duality of team synergy needs to be properly accounted for when trying to argue for or against Genesect's versatility and bluffing potential, as while I'm sure many players on both sides are aware, I think this point could stand to be bounced around a bit more.

I don't see how those two games support the idea of Genesect being broken.

In the first game, Dice simply did not play optimally against Genesect. You don't mess around setting up rocks with a Heatran (or Lando) on a Genesect without having any clue as to what it's running. If Dice had a mega Venusaur or Amoongus instead of Heatran, it would be a good play to just stay in and chill. If Dice had simply attacked it instead of going for the SR, the supposedly broken threat would have been gone.

I don't want to say you're wrong at all with this, but I would just like to play devil's advocate so that you can perhaps explain your stance a bit more clearly for my perspective. In this match up, both mons were the leads, so the match up is entirely based on what Genesect is running rather than later battle circumstances of when it was brought in. While HP Ground was the scenario that unfolded, another plausible scenario was a Scarf/EB Genesect that couldn't touch Heatran, and would use the first turn to U-Turn out (or hard switch, but the main thing is Genesect would leave before Heatran's action). ABR could logically go to his own Heatran or to Keldeo if he anticipated a Fire type move against the Genesect, so SR isn't an illogical choice since getting those Hazards up in those scenarios would probably do more good in the long run than firing off a nulled/resisted Fire move and potentially having to Switch Heatran out afterwards (without confirming if either Heatran might have EP or which would outspeed, or any number of factors affecting the mirror match up). The Heatran wasn't defensive, so it only even survived due to a roll

252 SpA Expert Belt Genesect Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 283-336 (87.6 - 104%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Genesect Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 236-280 (73 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Expert Belt Genesect Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 283-336 (73.3 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The only roll here that seems to immediately work for the turn 1 shown is EB Genesect vs Offensive Stallbreaker (if I'm mistaken, perhaps we could get the sets from the two battlers), as the other sets wouldn't break 90%. While a lower percentage, Heatran had a non-trivial chance to be OHKO'd from full by an HP Ground, and if he'd been KO'd, Dice's choice of response move wouldn't have mattered if it was a Fire type move.

My main thing being, it's very easy in hindsight to say that the Heatran's choice was poor play, but that's only because we saw the (then) unknown variable of HP Ground. There was an equally possible choice of action that would still put Dice at a disadvantage if the Genesect had indeed had a losing match up. For us who know the set, it's a suboptimal play, but in that particular moment, it appears as nothing more than a misprediction regarding what the Genesect would have. It's very easy to say what should have been done, hindsight being 20-20, but it doesn't strike me entirely as being objectively Dice's fault here.


I think it also fair to note, Genesect might be checked decently by Venusaur and Amoongus, but the same way HP Ground and Douse Drive emerged for things like Heatran and Alolawak, is there any reason he couldn't adopt a similar lure option if those became the most common response and it proved needed? Even then, standard Amoongus (no Thick Fat) only seems like it'd be a check if Genesect is scarfed and not running the very viable Ice Beam, and it doesn't even survive that without Max/Max+ for special bulk

+1 252 SpA Genesect Psychic vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 212-250 (58.4 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 4 Atk Genesect Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 144-170 (39.6 - 46.8%) -- 35.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 300-354 (69.6 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 156-184 (36.1 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+1 4 Atk Genesect Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Amoonguss: 268-316 (62.1 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

If I'm not grasping at straws, this just goes back to a common criticism of Genesect: it's never without an option to subvert the meta's choice of answer(s) to it if need be.

 

[Shouting]

Next, the argument that Landorus-T possesses all the same traits as Genesect because of all the sets it can run, therefore if we ban Genesect then we must also ban Lando-T for the same reason. This bothers me, because, well, how many times a day do you see Calm Mind Lando-T? In all my playing of Gen 6 OU and Gen 7 OU, I have not come across this set once. I haven't even seen the thing hold a Life Orb as an item. The 3 sets I've ever seen are Defensive, Scarf, and Double Dance (Or just 1 Dance). I've also yet to see a Continental Crush Lando-T. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Supersonic Skystrike was generally agreed to be Lando-T's best option for a Z Move and Continental Crush is more situational. These calcs are also assuming that Lando-T has gotten the SD up. If it's a double dance set, then Rock Polish is the dance that nine times out of ten comes first, so it's more likely that you'll be stuck with only a +2 Speed on a Rotom-Wash or Celesteela as they Hydro/Leech Seed you respectively. If it's just solo SD, then Lando-T is going to be outsped by and revenge killed pretty easily. Furthermore, while Continental Crush sets do well versus counters to the Supersonic Skystrike set, they get checked by Mega Venusaur, Amoonguss, Tapu Bulu, and Tangrowth.

On the other hand, Genesect's 8 or so viable sets are all common. They aren't easy to figure out either unlike Lando-T, since Banded sets can run Ice Beam, and Specs sets can run U-turn, etc.

I've never seen Douse Drive Genesect. I think I played maybe 1 HP Ground Genesect. I've never seen Rock Polish this gen (saw it last gen, played a liittle of it last gen). Occasionally I see band. Clearly the other Lando-T sets have merit, just like the other Genesect sets have merit, though they are less common. Why can't I bring those up? Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Rotom-W gets KO'd by +2 CC, Celesteela also. They are not counters. Who is to say I can't Swords Dance and not Rock Polish? The whole point of a double dance set really isn't to get both boosts (altho its pretty sweet if you do) - its to pick the one that is best against the team you are up against. Rotom-W, Celes, Skarm, cannot survive +2 CC. They are not counters. End of story.

How is Lando-T easier to scout? If Lando-T clicks Earthquake and does not take life orb recoil, it can be literally any set lol. Maybe by damage sure, but you can do the same with Genesect with his U-turn.


+2 Lando-T is outsped and revenge killed pretty easily, but so is expert belt genesect. A revenge killer is not a counter (or even a check most of the time)

The point is that it doesn't matter if your grass type can take +2 CC Lando because you don't know if it is carrying sky strike. You can't put in your Celesteela because you don't know if it is CC. NOTHING COUNTERS EVERY SET, JUST LIKE PEOPLE ARE SAYING NOTHING COUNTERS EVERY GENESECT SET. It can also pivot on its checks, provide team support with Intimidate, stealth rock, and knock off, AND is probably just as splashable (if not more so) than genesect.

I'm not saying "Let's ban Lando-T," but you can't ban Genesect on these grounds alone because Lando-T has been around just as long doing the same thing.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

The problem with this pro ban argument is that people forget that LANDO-T EXISTS.

This thing can run just as many if not more sets than Genesect, including Scarf, Double Dance, Life Orb, Skystrike, Defensive, Rock Polish, Swords Dance hell, even CALM MIND (which is actually legit believe it or not). I'm sure it can run Band too although I haven't used it personally. It actually has defensive synergy and utility unlike Genesect.

Nothing can counter all of these sets. Physically defensive Celesteela/Skarm get bodied by Swords Dance at +2

...

Like if you're really bothered by Genesect having so many sets that are impossible to counter with one pokemon, you should do the same with Lando-T (which has existed for as many gens as Genesect)

Again, not saying that Genesect should stay or go, but this argument ticks me off.

Lando's variety of sets and Gene's variety of sets are not even comparable and it's a lot easier to scout them.

If I don't see another SR setter at preview I immediately know it's not double dance or scarf.
If I don't see leftovers or get hit by rocky helm I know it's scarf, earth plate (no one uses LO wtf) or double dance z-move. I can tell if it's earth plate from damage or if it's scarf from its speed.

All checks to lando-t are universal except the z-move sets. If you have offensive earth plate covered you definitely have defensive and scarf sets covered.

These are the moves you gotta worry about from Lando-T:
Physical: EQ, knock off, U-turn, stone edge, explosion (very rare)
Special: HP Ice (very rare)
z-moves: CC, SSS

That's about it. Its STAB, some non-stab utility moves, and stone edge. If you can take those you're probably good.

These are the moves Gene can viably run:
Special: Tbolt, flamethrower, ice beam, bug buzz, flash cannon, HP Ground, Tech Blast (water)
Phsycial: u-turn, iron head, extreme speed, blaze kick

HUGE variety of moves that can also be at +1 due to download.

As an offensive threat, lando does not even compare to gene outside of double dance. And Lando's z-move sets are a bitch to check but that's because Z-moves are overpowered skill-less garbage, it has nothing to do with lando-t. Several z-sets on a wide variety of pokemon do not have anything even resembling a counter.

 

[Scribble]

I've never seen Douse Drive Genesect. I think I played maybe 1 HP Ground Genesect. I've never seen Rock Polish this gen (saw it last gen, played a liittle of it last gen). Occasionally I see band. Clearly the other Lando-T sets have merit, just like the other Genesect sets have merit, though they are less common. Why can't I bring those up? Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Rotom-W gets KO'd by +2 CC, Celesteela also. They are not counters. Who is to say I can't Swords Dance and not Rock Polish? The whole point of a double dance set really isn't to get both boosts (altho its pretty sweet if you do) - its to pick the one that is best against the team you are up against. Rotom-W, Celes, Skarm, cannot survive +2 CC. They are not counters. End of story.

How is Lando-T easier to scout? If Lando-T clicks Earthquake and does not take life orb recoil, it can be literally any set lol. Maybe by damage sure, but you can do the same with Genesect with his U-turn.


+2 Lando-T is outsped and revenge killed pretty easily, but so is non-scarf genesect. A revenge killer is not a counter (or even a check most of the time)

The point is that it doesn't matter if your grass type can take +2 CC Lando because you don't know if it is carrying sky strike. You can't put in your Celesteela because you don't know if it is CC. NOTHING COUNTERS EVERY SET, JUST LIKE PEOPLE ARE SAYING NOTHING COUNTERS EVERY GENESECT SET. It can also pivot on its checks, provide team support with Intimidate, stealth rock, and knock off, AND is probably just as splashable (if not more so) than genesect.

I've played against Douse Drive and HP Ground Gene a few times each, and there is even a replay showing HP Ground Gene earlier in this thread.

In paper, Lando-T sounds like this unstoppable monster but in reality, it isn't. Unlike Genesect, Lando-T doesn't put on this insane amount of pressure in practice. If it really did put on all this pressure people would be talking about it. If Lando-T uses U-turn, which it uses often, you can disregard Double Dance and Calm Mind (lol). When it uses U-turn, you see if it is Life Orb or not. When Genesect uses U-turn, you can disregard...uh, what can you disregard? You only see if it's LO or not. When you attack Lando-T, you get to see if it has Rocky Helmet or Leftovers. When you attack Genesect, uh, no information really gets revealed. So not, Lando-T is not easier to scout.

Lando-T is also weak to the a priority Ice Shard and lacks priority itself, while Genesect is not weak to priority and can carry Espeed. Genesect is faster and avoids the base 95 speed mons, where Tapu Lele currently resides.

Finally, the influence Lando-T has in the tier is healthy. It acts as a blanket check to most physical attackers, which is extremely helpful when more and more threats are introduced in every generation.

Gonna say this one more time, do not try and directly compare Genesect to other Pokemon in OU. There isn't a single Pokemon close enough to realistically compare it with.

 

[PK Gaming]

I think the anti-ban side has a good point in regards to Genesect being easier to deal with in practice. There's that unpredictability factor, but Genesect is usually pretty consistent in what it runs. There's a decent amount of counterplay that can be afforded mid match that prevents you from truly getting wrecked by it if you screw up against it (see Dice vs ABR as an example). I also agree with the assertion that it's beneficial to the metagame, since it checks a ton of dangerous threats in the metagame, and is arguably the "glue" that holds the entire metagame together at the moment. But that right there is the problem.

It's an obstacle towards metagame growth.

There is barely any reason not to run Genesect outside of stall. It's extremely powerful and extremely versatile. You can use it to check ton of threats or you can use it to plow through teams. Genesect is directly responsible for keeping the metagame the way it is; playing through the suspect ladder has made it clear that several threats are even more problematic than they initially seemed on the regular ladder. It is likely that banning Genesect will likely lead to many more suspect tests down the line (though this obviously not the thread for this discussion), but I think that too is necessary for overall metagame growth.

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

In the majority of cases, this can and should be the idea employed to counter play a versatile mon, but I don't think it's the most effective method with regards to Genesect, as several of Genesect's multiple sets can perform similarly enough to each other that they can bluff each other, if not almost substitute for each other at times.

Your later posted Scarfchomp example is a point, but part of why it works as such is because Scarfchomp's playstyle and role is very different from how LO or Tankchomp would play, so it's much harder to bluff it without outright playing it poorly, if the illusion is even possible in the first place. Genesect's Expert Belt, Z-move, and Scarf sets can be played much more similarly, such that the only surefire way to see what the set is would be for the move to change, Z-move to happen, or Genesect to outspeed something, and if the opponent is unveiling the identity of the set in such a manner, it's very likely they're in a position where they gain a sufficient advantage for doing so.

I see - so are you saying that Genesect has an affect (be it healthy or unhealthy) on the meta by reducing the value of said mentality that should be 'Common sense 101' at this point? Similar to how Mega Sableye supposedly reduced the value of double switches.

Also ScarfChomp was just a random analogy that was kicking around in the back of my mind. I wasn't being literal, but if that's how you find more mileage out of the discussion (as you have) - more power to you. Thanks!

EDIT: Happy New Year to everyone!

 

[The Elder Dragon]

Forgive me if I'm rather blunt, but I personally am quite mollified by Genesect. I've watched other people get havoc wreaked on them, or wreak havoc with, Genesect. However, in my experience through my own battles on PS!, I have no particular success using it, nor do I lose to it more than any other threat. I don't actually have any replays (I don't keep all my replays pasted for later viewing, being a occupied making sure my roommates don't look over my shoulder and realize what a nerd I am) so you'll have to either think me a liar or take my word for it. Anyway, as for other sets, I have literally never seen any set other than choice scarf, save for one oddball player that was using a douse drive set with Hidden Power Ghost. (He claimed it was so he could OHKO Gengar)

If Genesect is indeed ban-worthy due to the versatility that it can obviously put to use, which it may well be, I still think that suspect testing a threat capable of bluffing so many things and filling so many roles might be a lot more of a chore than one would think- no doubt many players plan to vote based on if Genesect only use the choice scarf set, and some players (such as me) either don't care enough or are conflicted enough they aren't going to bother getting Requirements, or if they do, will abstain from voting.

 

[Temperarious]

New to Ou, so I can't really give a competitive super wordy analysis on how Gen is super OP, blah blah

I enjoyed not having to worry about a Genesect blowing me away with one of its viable (or non-viable) sets while laddering. I wouldn't say it's flat out broken, but it's a rather pressing nuisance to deal with for every type of build

I don't think it promotes healthy game play at all, because the various things it can do make it pretty unpredictable and arbitrary, so that one always needs to play carefully around it

The worst part about Genesect is that one is already conditioned into thinking it's most likely scarfed, and can mostly play around it as if it's scarf until it reveals otherwise, at which point the player facing it is likely to be in a bad position depending on his team make up. Either way, I'd like knowing that I don't have to see a Gen on every other team while I ladder.

will be voting ban

 

[Leo]

I've never seen Douse Drive Genesect. I think I played maybe 1 HP Ground Genesect. I've never seen Rock Polish this gen (saw it last gen, played a liittle of it last gen). Occasionally I see band. Clearly the other Lando-T sets have merit, just like the other Genesect sets have merit, though they are less common. Why can't I bring those up? Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Rotom-W gets KO'd by +2 CC, Celesteela also. They are not counters. Who is to say I can't Swords Dance and not Rock Polish? The whole point of a double dance set really isn't to get both boosts (altho its pretty sweet if you do) - its to pick the one that is best against the team you are up against. Rotom-W, Celes, Skarm, cannot survive +2 CC. They are not counters. End of story.

How is Lando-T easier to scout? If Lando-T clicks Earthquake and does not take life orb recoil, it can be literally any set lol. Maybe by damage sure, but you can do the same with Genesect with his U-turn.


+2 Lando-T is outsped and revenge killed pretty easily, but so is expert belt genesect. A revenge killer is not a counter (or even a check most of the time)

The point is that it doesn't matter if your grass type can take +2 CC Lando because you don't know if it is carrying sky strike. You can't put in your Celesteela because you don't know if it is CC. NOTHING COUNTERS EVERY SET, JUST LIKE PEOPLE ARE SAYING NOTHING COUNTERS EVERY GENESECT SET. It can also pivot on its checks, provide team support with Intimidate, stealth rock, and knock off, AND is probably just as splashable (if not more so) than genesect.

I'm not saying "Let's ban Lando-T," but you can't ban Genesect on these grounds alone because Lando-T has been around just as long doing the same thing.

Just wanted to point out that there are 5 viable Lando-T sets in the current meta imo: Defensive with rocks, Offensive Rocks, Scarf, Double Dance and Z-move (either Skystrike or CC). Life Orb Lando isn't a relevant set and shouldn't be used over Earth Plate offensive, Calm Mind isn't a thing and Bandorus is a meme set. The difference between Lando's and Genesect's versatility and the reason why I don't think you can compare them is because Lando's different sets can't really beat its would-be counters. Let's say you switch in your Rotom-W as your opp SD's with Lando. Now the only reason why Lando would stay in right there would be to CC, otherwise it'd switch out, which allows you to pivot into your Rock resist or a sack. Celesteela can scout with Protect. Skarmory has Sturdy and Roost. Skystrike can't break these anyways. It can't even pivot out of its counters because the offensive set that is supposed to get past its counters (dd, Z-move) doesn't pack u-turn. On the other hand, Genesect doesnt have a real answer in your team until its full set is revealed. You can't keep 1-2 mons for late game and assume you'll be safe unlike Landorus.

 

[latias95]

Finally, the influence Lando-T has in the tier is healthy. It acts as a blanket check to most physical attackers, which is extremely helpful when more and more threats are introduced in every generation.

How is that healthy? That's like saying Genesect is healthy because it acts as a blanket check to stall. Lando-T invalidating lots of physical attackers is not a good thing.

 

[pika pal]

How is that healthy? That's like saying Genesect is healthy because it acts as a blanket check to stall. Lando-T invalidating lots of physical attackers is not a good thing.

Landorus-T is more like a soft check to most physical attackers and a hard check to a couple. Compared to Genesect, it's very easy to overload him.

 

[Schpoonman]

I think a big difference between Genesect and Landorus is that every single of Genesect's sets barring the lures would still be an extremely effective Pokemon even if you knew the set at Team Preview. Calm Mind Landorus may be good as a surprise, but if you have an answer to it you're not in any trouble. Even if you know it's CBsect at TP, its "answers" can still be very easily manhandled. A replay a few pages ago showed just how dangerous even a very small alteration can be, with Ice Beam. Landorus is good because of his versatility. Genect is broken because of his.

 

[viol and bass]

I think a big difference between Genesect and Landorus is that every single of Genesect's sets barring the lures would still be an extremely effective Pokemon even if you knew the set at Team Preview. Calm Mind Landorus may be good as a surprise, but if you have an answer to it you're not in any trouble. Even if you know it's CBsect at TP, its "answers" can still be very easily manhandled. A replay a few pages ago showed just how dangerous even a very small alteration can be, with Ice Beam. Landorus is good because of his versatility. Genect is broken because of his.

It's also worth noting that since Genesect gets STAB and a potential download boost on U-turn, his "safe" move is also one that does a shitload of chip damage to anything but the sturdiest resists. When you click U-turn with Lando, you're deciding between either the momentum and relative safety provided by pivoting, or doing real damage. You're choosing pivoting because of the utility it offers. Genesect has no such choice, he can do a huge amount of chip damage every time he clicks U-turn, which also happens to be the safe pivoting move. It offers a huge amount of reward for little to no risk. It says a lot about the breadth of Genesect's coverage options that he ever clicks anything else.

 

[Lady Alex]

After laddering for reqs, I have to be perfectly honest and say that I find the genesect meta somewhat more enjoyable, mostly because it being gone really highlights how busted Greninja and Lele are. Nonetheless, I feel very strongly that the correct vote is to ban Genesect because there's no escaping the fact that, while it's nice that genesect checks otherwise problematic mons, Genesect itself is far too restrictive on the metagame to keep around. Outside of stall, there's legitimately almost zero reason that you wouldn't run it because not doing so is always going to be suboptimal. Even though it's early in the grand scheme of things, I don't think we're too far off from a stable metagame, and I think that once we get rid of Genesect, Greninja, and Lele we'll begin to have a fairly good image of how it's going to shape up.

 

[oreofestar]

After laddering for reqs, I have to be perfectly honest and say that I find the genesect meta somewhat more enjoyable, mostly because it being gone really highlights how busted Greninja and Lele are. Nonetheless, I feel very strongly that the correct vote is to ban Genesect because there's no escaping the fact that, while it's nice that genesect checks otherwise problematic mons, Genesect itself is far too restrictive on the metagame to keep around. Outside of stall, there's legitimately almost zero reason that you wouldn't run it because not doing so is always going to be suboptimal. Even though it's early in the grand scheme of things, I don't think we're too far off from a stable metagame, and I think that once we get rid of Genesect, Greninja, and Lele we'll begin to have a fairly good image of how it's going to shape up.

I do agree that Genesects removal is probably best for the development of the meta...I disagree about Gren and Lele though. I don't think there's anything after Genesect that's outright broken enough to try and have immediately removed even if some can be obnoxious .

We can't forget that eventually (soon?) Mega Mawile, Mega Lopunny, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Medicham and others will be back and they probably will affect the meta in one way or another.

Genesect just strikes me in particular as something that doesn't necessarily deserve to have the benefit of waiting, because its so clearly overpowered and unpredictable.

 

[AQML]

It seems to me that the versatility of Genesect isn't the breaking factor of this mon just by itself, but just how well it performs at all of it's possible sets. Because there are definitely others out there capable of running several different sets. The difference with them is that for the most part, some other sets might not have the practicality of usefulness of other sets - an (maybe not great) example being Lando-T being able to realistically run a CM set even though it has limited viability to say the least. It is reasonable to expect a particular Land-T. As others have stated, the 8 or so sets that Genesect could realistically run are all highly applicable, so upon seeing it on team preview, you'd need to prepare for the possibility of any of those sets being the one it is running. Finding out which set it is could come at the cost of a team member, and even then you might not have all the knowledge you need to be completely in the clear at that point.

An interesting note on Genesect that I'm sure has been mentioned ad nauseum here is that Download is one of the other factors that puts it over the top. For those running a scarf set, it is essentially a band/specs built in, giving the band/specs power along with the scarf speed, which can definitely be a bit overwhelming. What is essentially a banded and scarfed U-turn is a scary prospect. Rock Polish sets also benefit hugely from a download boost in the appropriate stat. I know I'm not breaking any new ground in anything I'm saying, but it's stuff like that that contributes to putting Genesect over the top, among many other factors.

I don't want to seem that I'm intolerant of other opinions or attacking those with differing opinions, just diplomatically stating my two cents. I can definitely understand the anti-ban views, and if that's where you stand in this, all the power in the world to you

 

[Twilightphoenix10]

One thing I've noticed is that several anti-ban supporters are telling people is to use the move calculator to help determine certain sets on genesect. I find this to be rather burdonsome to say the least. Who actually sits with the move calculator opened and primed all the time? I can see you doing this every once in a while to check and see if somthing (not Genesect) is banded or specd because of the amount of damage it was doing when it realistically shouldn't be able to otherwise with a lower base power move like volt switch or u-turn, but to have to open it everytime and keep it open just because of this one mon seems a bit silly to me (I didn't mention scarf because it is easy to figure out if its scarfed if you are running something that can naturally out-speed it and Gen out-speeds your mon; of course finding that little bit of info out can cost you a lot more than you barganed for). Then there is still the matter of actually figuring out what it has outside of u-turn/extreme speed and having to deal with all of its other teamates that can switch in on your supposed checks to it. Is this a viable way to help with process of elimination for the genesect you're facing? yes but only for the item because its coverage is still unknown (though it is possible to make educated guesses as to what its other moves are going to be, but those are just assumptions and guesses which can hurt you more than they can help you if you) and it is a rather inconvinent process. Let us not forget that it is possible for it to bluff other sets very easily due to the nature of its stats and coverage options as well as teammates.

The whole checks and balences argument is pretty much rendered to be invalid because there is nothing balanced about it. The few tiny handfull of possible checks (A-Marowak, Celesteela, Chansy, Heatran, etc...) can easily be accounted for by the Genesect user's team and the set used on said Genesect. Now normally this wouldn't be too much of an issue, but the combination of Genesect's unpredictability coupled with deadly core combinations (such as dugrio), and the ability to easily gain and keep momentum while avoiding being tapped (sure you might take a hit from EQ or hp fire but you will live (as long as you didn't eat anything too damaging earlier), then comeback to either deal decent chip damage with u-turn and escape, or just out right kill the trapper depending on who the trapper is and what coverage options you have avilable to you) on top of being able to be a potential double choice item user due to the virtue of download makes Genesect a very potent threat that creates a system of flawed checks and balences which is essentialy the same as not having any at all.

And for the love of all that is holy please stop trying to compare Genesect to other top tier OU mons like Landorus-T. Its like comparing apples to oranges; they are too different to make a reasonable comparison. In addition Land-T and other mons that Genesect has been being compared to, such as scizor, fill niche rolls and are far easier to scout and have actual counters that, while they can be played around, do not make or break the opposing team's synergy and they actually function to check/counter Scizor or Land-T just by themselves if need be (though a little help from their teamates is always appreciated) and you only need one of them for it to be effective; unlike with Genesect who essentially forces you to carry 2-3 counters on each team. As for the whole mega venasaur and amoogus being able to check genesect argument it is pretty much false. Amoongus dies after two hits from just about any of Genesect's moves Possibly one if its banded u-turn or a fire/ice coverage move, can't switch in on it because then its death is assured if it does (barring choice locked thunderbolt/douse blast/giga drain/energy ball), and putting it to sleep will never work due to it being outspeed by genesect and the sleep clause. Mega Venasaur still takes heavy damage from stab u-turn (even more so if its expert belt, life orb [unlikely but possible], or banded and furthermore if it has the boost in atk from download), you still also can't switch venasuar in on it pre-mega evolving due to taking supereffective ice and fire damage (ala no thick fat to bring it down to neutral), it is also out sped by Genesect which allows for offensive u-turns into a check/counter for venasuar.

Finally Priority means nothing to Genesect because it has access to Extreme Speed and the only priority moves that deal neutral damage to it are sucker punch, aqua jet/water shurikan, acell rock (maybe?), and shadow sneak (again maybe?). There is no fire type priority move to even threaten it with and even if there was it could just as easily hard switch out to a check/counter that can eat it like heatran or toxapex or even possibly eat it and survive (highly doubtful on this) and counter with douse blast or hp ground.

 

[Schpoonman]

Accelerock and Shadow Sneak both deal full damage (it's not weak to any priority), yes.

 

[Pippleo]

Why are we suspecting Genescect with Celesteela, Pheromosa and Hoopa still around?

Anyway, SERIOUSLY. Don't ban this. Gene is a rly good mon but not THAT broken, and also can be used to rkill some threat like Lele so it's NEEDED. Or are we going to ban Lele too, after?!

 

[pika pal]

Why are we suspecting Genescect with Celesteela, Pheromosa and Hoopa still around?

Anyway, SERIOUSLY. Don't ban this. Gene is a rly good mon but not THAT broken, and also can be used to rkill some threat like Lele so it's NEEDED. Or are we going to ban Lele too, after?!

If a mon is so problematic that we need something on the level of Genesect to handle it, then it probably SHOULD end up getting suspected.

Regardless, this thread isn't about discussing whether or not something else should be suspected, whether before, after, or instead of Genesect. Genesect is a mon whose influence on the tier is apparent, and while perhaps not "Broken" by the typical definition, his risk-reward usage doesn't make him a healthy element for a metagame to evolve and develop. Multiple viable sets that all handle their various checks and create a guessing game, combined with high power, absurd coverage, and the best momentum generation in the tier all combine to make Genesect a mon who sits on top of the OU metagame and has the ability to lead attempts to handle him and evolve in circles by pulling new moves out of his bag of tricks.