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Announcement np: SM OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - The Robots - Metagrossite BANNED

Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by Finchinator, Apr 27, 2017.

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  1. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT'S FINK DUMBASS
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    Hey everybody, the OU tiering council has decided to test Metagrossite.

    Mega-Metagross has been a common threat in the Overused metagame dating back to the start of generation six, even receiving a suspect during the middle of last generation. While it was not deemed broken in XY, many people believe that it has improved significantly during SM due to the new mechanics for mega evolving and the state of the current metagame. Mega-Metagross has an incredible offensive presence in the current metagame, with high attack and a plethora of viable coverage options and strong STABs. Mega-Metagross is not a one-trick-pony, either, as it has superb bulk on the physical side and respectable special bulk while wielding base 110 speed, allowing it to comfortably tank hits and outspeed a majority of the metagame despite the generational speed creep. Moreover, Mega-Metagross has shot to the forefront of the SM OU metagame and is viewed as a controversial threat for the aforementioned reasons.

    At the start of the generation, Mega-Metagross immediately became better due to it automatically receiving the mega speed boost and the various terrains powering up moves that it commonly uses, such as Thunder Punch in Electric Terrain and Zen Headbutt in Psychic Terrain. The surplus of Fairy types and new Pokemon that happened to be in slower speed tiers also played into the increased viability and effectiveness of Mega-Metagross. Eventually, people started to think that Mega-Metagross was potentially banworthy and as the metagame developed, people wondered if the amount of counterplay in the tier was sufficient or not. Mega-Scizor became a bit more popular as a countermeasure to Mega-Metagross, but Mega-Metagross still found itself threatening to almost every team lacking Mega-Scizor and it occasionally elected to utilize Hidden Power Fire in order to adapt to the metagame trends. As more time elapsed, Mega-Metagross maintained its position among the best Pokemon in the metagame. With that said, some may think that Mega-Metagross finds itself spread quite thin in terms of moves it can use and view this as a limiting factor. Every Pokemon can only use four moves at the end of the day and there are ways to scout Mega-Metagross and sometimes team structure gives away the moves it might be carrying.

    Going off of this note, Mega-Metagross almost always runs Meteor Mash and one of Hammer Arm or Earthquake. It can also utilize coverage or utility moves such as Thunder Punch, Ice Punch, Zen Headbutt, Pursuit, Hidden Power Fire, Rock Polish/Agility, and Stealth Rock. As to how strong of an asset this versatility is, that is in the eye of the beholder. Keep in mind that prediction is generally a two-way-street in the context of a suspect, so you cannot assume that the Mega-Metagross user will always predict corretly or that the opponent will always pivot safely when discussing the impact of the aforementioned coverage. With this said, Mega-Metagross still can only use four moves at a time and the moveset is often predictable based on teammates, so there still is an element of predictability and, in certain match-ups, it makes Mega-Metagross much less threatening offensively. Mega-Metagross using mostly consistent coverage essentially means that pokemon such as Skarmory, Physically Defensive Tangrowth, and Mega-Slowbro check/counter most Mega-Metagross variants. Additionally, common choice scarf users like Garchomp and fast offensive threats like Greninja can revenge kill or consistently force out Mega-Metagross, making it hard to consistently threaten offensive teams. Therefore, each common archetype of team has means of dealing with Mega-Metagross to varying degrees depending on what they elect to use and Mega-Metagross elects to use itself.

    Ultimately, these are the pros and cons of Mega-Metagross in the SM OU metagame, so weighing out those variables and determining if there is satisfactory counterplay in the metagame will lead to individuals coming to an ultimate conclusion as to if they deem Mega-Metagross banworthy or not.

    Due to the fact that Mega-Metagross has been a consistently controversial Pokemon since the dawn of the generation, and that there are legitimate claims to it being a broken force in the metagame, the OU tiering council has decided that it is time for a suspect test.

    For this round we are going to have two alternative ways to qualify for voting:
    1. Laddering: you will need to achieve a COIL rating of 2700 (or more) in a /!\ game limit of 70 games /!\ on the OU Suspect Test Ladder (in which Mega-Metagross is banned), that will be implemented very soon.
    2. Suspect Tours: check McMeghan's thread.

    The suspect test will last for approximately 2 weeks and will end on May 11th.

    Use this thread to discuss the suspect and your thoughts on the suspect metagame. If you have any questions, then feel free to contact ABR, bludz, blunder, bro fist, Finchinator, M Dragon, PDC, and/or TDK through a PM. These threads tend to get derailed so please make extra effort to stay on topic. Future suspects need not be discussed in this thread.

    Keep in mind that, as usual, it's going to be up to the playerbase to decide the outcome of this test. Good luck and have fun laddering!

    /!\Rules for posting in this thread/!\
    • No one liners nor uninformed posts;
    • No discussion on other potential suspects;
    • No discussion on the suspect process;
    • You are required to make respectful posts;
    • You are required to read this thread before posting.

    Failing to follow these simple guidelines will result into your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.

    /!\ NOTICE /!\ OU will not be tolerating any form of voting manipulation. Any attempt to manipulate votes can result in an infraction, loss of eligibility to vote in the current test, and loss of the Tiering Contributor badge. While we won't necessarily enforce super strict punishment, this won't be tolerated and will be handled accordingly. Voting manipulation can simply be described as attempting to get people to vote a way on the test in inappropriate manners. Bribing with teams to vote a certain way, directly messaging people to vote a certain way, publicly announcing "vote this way" all fall under voting manipulation. If you have any further questions feel free to shoot TDK a PM.

    Antar's edit: as with the previous OU tests, the B value for this test is 17.0. To figure out how many battles you will need to have in order to achieve reqs, first determine your GXE (shown on the ladder and when you type /rating) and plug that into the following formula:

    N=17.0/log2(40*GXE/2700)

    (Google calculator is awesome for this kind of thing).

    Here are some sample values:
    Code:
    GXE N
    100 30
    90 41
    85 52
    80 70
    75 112
    70 324
    Tagging The Immortal so that this can be implemented on PS - please remove the current OU ladder, create a suspect ladder, and ban Mega-Metagross from this ladder - thank you!
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2017
  2. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT'S FINK DUMBASS
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    As we did for the Pheromosa suspect, each of the OU Council Members will be sharing our personal thoughts on the current suspect in the hope that it sparks good discussion, so feel free to respond to any of our points. If a council member did not submit a paragraph yet, it will be edited in once they write their paragraph in the near future!

    ABR (open)
    On the face of it, Metagross seems to have just about everything going for it. It has 80/150/110 bulk, 145 attack, decent coverage, and a nice speed tier. However, something being good is different from something being broken. On paper it may seem like a perfect candidate for what Smogon generally bans, but it is important to look deeper into this. The main point I want to get at is that despite Metagross' many good traits, there are still plenty of viable counterplay measures.

    Defensively, many pokemon can safely switch into Metagross. Mega Scizor, Helmet Tangrowth, Skarmory, Alomomola, and Slowbro are some of the first that come to mind. Even with its coverage options, Metagross fails to break through heavily defensive pokemon: (252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 132-156 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery) as well as (252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 158-186 (40.1 - 47.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery) and (252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 144-170 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock). Additionally, something like Lando-T can 1v1 it because Ice Punch isn't quite strong enough, and the same can be said for Heatran vs Hammer Arm. Another important thing to note is that there are a lot of situational switchins, depending on Metagross' coverage. If Metagross uses Hammer Arm and no Earthquake then Jirachi pretty much walls. Celesteela walls no Thunder Punch; Landorus walls no Ice Punch; Rotom/Gastro/Quag wall no Zen Headbutt; Ferrothorn walls no Hammer Arm, and so forth. Metagross really just isn't as offensively devastating as people make it out to be.

    Offensively, there are definitely some good countermeasures to Metagross, whether it be via revenge killing or winning 1v1. The best revenge killers are Greninja and Dugtrio, but many other pokemon can revenge it if it's at slightly less than full. Some of these include Scarf Garchomp, Scarf Gengar, and Tapu Koko. As for pokemon that pretty much always 1v1 but are not traditional revenge killers or switchins, there are plenty. Just going through OU-relevant pokemon, there's Charizard (either), Marowak, Mawile, Mew, Mimikyu, Sableye, and Volcarona, to name some of them.

    I won't delve too much into this but another important point is that Metagross is extremely prone to being worn down, whether by entry hazards, Rough Skin / Iron Barbs / Rocky Helmet, or just a lack of recovery overall. It very rarely is going to stay perfectly healthy for a while.

    In early ORAS, Metagross was also suspected, and for many of the same reasons. It's true that the instant speed is a notable buff, but it has not changed all too much, especially in regards to direct switchins and revenge killers. Additionally, the argument about the terrains of the new fairies don't affect the metagame all too much. The terrains only last 4 turns after a Tapu is sent in, if they die on the switchin, and only boost or weaken one move at a time. They also affect other pokemon just as much as they do Metagross. Also, Clefable's presence in ORAS is just about equal to all of the Tapus combined, so this fairy prevalence arugment should not be used here at all.

    I'm sure we can all agree that the decision made in ORAS was the right one. I know how hastily people can jump to conclusions of something being broken, and I'd hate to see a rash decision being made here. Pheromosa was only banned a few weeks ago, and SM is evolving at a rapid pace. I'm not totally convinced Metagross should remain in OU forever, but I'm also not convinced right now is the time to ban it, especially with how fast the SM metagame shifts. If Metagross is still an issue after some real settling time, then I'm entirely open to a re-suspect in the future. And yes, being patient is unbelievably crucial when these tiering decisions shape metagames for years to come.

    I was personally opposed to having the suspect test done at this time, because I don't believe now is the time to ban Metagross, if there ever is one.

    bludz (open)
    I remember when Mega Metagross got a suspect in early ORAS. It almost got banned, but didn’t, and that turned out to be the right thing – because it wasn’t overpowered in that metagame. I don’t believe that is the case this time.

    The buff to Megas is a blessing to Metagross, which could not Mega Evolve freely against pokemon such as Heatran and Garchomp in Gen 6. The instant speed boost is huge for its viability, making it much more difficult to deal with right off the bat. For example, you now speed tie Latios on the first turn instead of always getting chunked by Draco Meteor. Winning this type of speed tie is huge because Metagross needs to be chipped to be revenge killed most of the time due to its excellent natural bulk. Furthermore, its coverage options have become more viable. In ORAS, Earthquake was not that good and Thunder Punch was decent but not great. In SM, Earthquake vs Hammer Arm is a legitimate debate for a Metagross set, and thus something one needs to consider when trying to cover Metagross in the teambuilder. For example, this makes Jirachi a much shakier Metagross check than in Gen 6. Thunder Punch is also very good in SM, as it allows Metagross to bust through pokemon like Celesteela, and can even beat Skarmory now as long as it is boosted by Electric Terrain. Speaking of Terrain, Metagross abuses just about all of them really well, although Electric and Psychic particularly well.

    Many of Metagross’ best checks and counters from last generation have also become less viable this time around. Slowbro is not particularly good in this metagame, and is even much more pressured by Metagross now that Thunder Punch is extremely common. Skarmory is vulnerable to Electric Terrain boosted Thunder Punch as well and Hippowdon is pretty rare now. Mega Scizor is still quite good but not on the same level as last generation, and some Metagross actually run HP Fire too. Rotom-Wash is still a solid pokemon, but less reliable this generation, more at risk of getting blown back by stuff like Psychic Terrain boosted Zen Headbutt.

    Overall, I believe counterplay to Mega Metagross is pretty limited in the current metagame. Most Choice Scarfers are unable to revenge kill in one shot, and it shrugs off many priority moves with ease. It has great bulk all around, so even pokemon that outspeed it like Tapu Koko do not win in a 1v1 scenario. It is one of the best offensive glues as it checks a good majority of wallbreakers in the tier, and pairs easily with mons such as Tapu Koko which help cover its weaknesses to pokemon like Skarmory and Greninja. While good answers exist to Metagross, they are very limited and include only a few things like Mega Scizor (which still bewares HP Fire), Bronzong (which lacks recovery), Hippowdon, Phys Def Tangrowth, and defensive Mew and Reuniclus which fear Meteor Mash boosts. Dugtrio is also a legitimate way to deal with Metagross, but must be used in a revenge killing capacity and requires its Focus Sash to be intact or Metagross to be weakened. Greninja might be the best offensive check to Mega Meta, but Protean sets do not even OHKO. I think that Metagross exerts too large a strain on teambuilding and threat management in game scenarios. If Metagross is banned, I believe that the OU tier will undergo positive metagame developments because a greater variety of team builds will be able to thrive.

    blunder (open)

    bro fist (open)
    The transition from generation 6 to generation 7 has been way too kind to Mega Metagross. The changes to the way mega evolution works, the introduction of some of the new Pokemon that roam free in OU (mostly the Tapus, as Metagross is a great abuser of pretty much every terrain field condition), as well as general metagame trends, benefit Metagross to the point where it has been pushed over the edge in my opinion. Metagross sports a fantastic combation of traits. It has great raw power and a good offensive movepool which makes it hard to switch into safely. It also sits in an above average speed tier of base 110 thanks to the new mechanics and has superb bulk for such an offensive pokemon. This makes revenge killing it a difficult task even for pokemon like Choice Scarf Garchomp and Dugtrio, who, despite having STAB, super effective Earthquakes to hit it with, require a good amount of prior damage to ensure a KO. Metagross is an incredibly restrictive force on the team building aspect of SM OU. Coverage options such as Zen Headbutt, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Hammer Arm, Earthquake, Pursuit and Bullet Punch, all compliment its main STAB Meteor Mash beautifully. It also has access to less common support options such as Stealth Rock and Rock Polish. This means that it is a largely flexible and customizable pokemon, able to adapt its moveset to the metagame around it and to fulfill the needs of the team it is on. Many Metagross users have even started to run Hidden Power Fire to circumvent Mega Scizor, a Pokemon that is universally recognized as the best Metagross counter in the game. All of this without even mentioning how other counterplay to Metagross is only a Meteor Mash attack raise or a Zen Headbutt flinch away from being muscled past. If you've played a decent amount of SM OU, you'll know what I mean. For these and other reasons, I believe that Metagross is simply too good for OU and plan to vote in favor of its ban.

    Finchinator (open)
    Mega-Metagross is easily one of the most consistently threatening Pokemon in the tier and this suspect is far from surprising, in my eyes. I believe that it is a well-rounded Pokemon and it functions well on pretty much every front, but it has some specific traits that make it stand-out and make opposing counterplay extremely challenging. With an above average Speed Tier and high attack, Mega-Metagross can take advantage of strong STABs and a plethora of viable coverage moves to wreck havoc on the offensive end of the spectrum. Additionally, Mega-Metagross wields superb physical bulk and satisfactory special bulk, meaning that it can get in reasonably unlike other Pokemon that fit the glass-cannon description moreso than the all-around-threat type of Pokemon that I view Mega-Metagross as. Looking at the potential counters for Mega-Metagross, the Pokemon that stand out in my eyes are Mega-Scizor, Rocky Helmet Tangrowth, and the rare Mega-Slowbro. It has various checks, as well, such as Physically Defensive Mew, Skarmory, and Rotom-Wash, but there are only a handful of things that can consistently switch-in to opposing Mega-Metagross and this restricts teambuilding as is. On top of that, Mega-Metagross can adapt to various Pokemon listed above -- Hidden Power Fire has been used sporadically in order to hit Mega-Scizor, Rocky Helmet Tangrowth and Mew can be worn out by hazards and simply lose if Mega-Metagross gets an attack raise with Meteor Mash at any point, and Pokemon like Mega-Slowbro are terribly uncommon as is. Therefore, I find Mega-Metagross to be too much for the current metagame and I am strongly leaning towards voting ban on this suspect.

    M Dragon (open)


    PDC (open)

    I have always been a fan of Metagross and the duality of its qualities as an offensive juggernaut and a defensive asset to most teams. I used it in SPL repeatedly (Weeks 1, 3, 5, and 9 off the top of my head), messing around with different combinations of sets and teambuilds. Needless to say, I have always thought Metagross was a solid pick on nearly anything bulky offense / balance team. It filled multiple necessary roles of being an offensive, yet bulky steel type which could be stuck on a wide array of builds; for this reason it was hyped up incredibly during the early phases of the SM Metagame.

    But I have never been a believer that Metagross itself is broken, at least not in the current state of the metagame. Metagross is certainly a top tier Pokemon - there is no doubt about that - but I often find it either runs too slow, too weak, or too lacking in coverage to break through the most defensive cores present in the tier. Metagross is, in my opinion, one of the most skill based offensive Pokemon to use in the tier due to how much its effectiveness relies on accurate prediction. Metagross itself is strong, but it requires a strong command in order to break through even remotely prepared teams with ease.

    I would also like to note that the belief that MMeta has been getting "better" over time is false. We have seen the rise of many new counters (or hard stops) to MMeta as time goes on, those being Alomomola, MScizor, Slowbro, Tangrowth, and physically defensive based walls like Zapdos or Celesteela. What hinders Metagross is its proneness to being incredibly prediction heavy, worn down easily by helmets & hazards, and it's tendency to be outran by faster offensive threats, which more often than not can scare it out with ease.

    Make no mistake when I say that Metagross is prone to hindrances, for it is still one of the best Pokemon available right now, but I believe that at least for the time, it does not transcend the boundary of "strong offensive pick" into the field of outright broken.

    TDK (open)
    I think lots of people figured this test would happen sooner rather than later, regardless of whether or not you agree with it. Mega Metagross is undisputedly one of the best Pokemon in the tier; being an incredible threat to so many teams. The biggest thing, to me, about Mega Metagross that makes it warrant a suspect is the fact it basically has no good counterplay. Mega Scizor gets nailed by HP Fire, which is a legitimately good set; Phys Def Tangrowth does not reliably beat Metagross, between relying on Sleep Powder / chipping at it with EQ / HP Fire while avoiding Mash boosts, Ice Punch freezes, and crits; Skarmory has to beat Metagross with Counter; Landorus-T gets blown back by Ice Punch and can't switch in if Metagross hasn't yet Mega Evolved. The most viable form of counter play for Metagross is one of the following: 1) Mega Scizor and hope you don't face HP Fire Metagross. 2) Sash Dugtrio with Sucker Punch or Z-Earthquake. 3) Rely on saccing a 'Mon into revenge killing.

    Not to overstate Mega Metagross; it is far easier to play around it than it is to aptly prepare for it. Solid playing and nicely timed predictions allow Mega Metagross to be played around; switching a Scarfer into a resisted move, chipping away at it with passive damage, such as hazards and Rocky Helmet (also Iron Barbs/Rough Skin). Metagross can also easily be forced out by many super viable Pokemon, such as Greninja, Tangrowth, Mew, Ferrothorn, and many viable Scarfers.

    The amount of counterplay Metagross has is incredibly limited, the strain it presents, particularly in team building, make it ridiculous to aptly prepare for. This test isn't remotely similar to the ORAS test for Mega Metagross, as Metagross only experienced buffs with the release of Sun and Moon; between the Mega speed boost (granting Mega Metagross 110 base speed the turn it mega evolves), terrains (basically all terrains benefit Metagross), and decline in viability of Mega Scizor (I feel Scizor's viability hinges on its ability to beat Mega Metagross and only that). With all this considered, I intend to vote to ban Mega Metagross.
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 29, 2017
  3. TDK

    TDK
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    [​IMG] Live Suspect Tournaments [​IMG]

    Date: Friday, May 5th
    Time: 2 PM EDT (GMT-4)
    Host: Mr. Perry
    Winner: Chill Shadow
    Gained Reqs: Chill Shadow, rozes

    Date: Monday, May 8th
    Time: 6 PM EDT (GMT-4)
    Host: AJB
    Winner: Mounts
    Gained Reqs: Floppy, Mounts

    Date: Tuesday, May 9th
    Time: 4 PM EDT (GMT-4)
    Host: Prague Kick
    Winner: iPro
    Gained Reqs: iPro, RedEmptionMc

    All three suspect tournaments will adopt the suspect ladder where Metagrossite (Mega Metagross) is banned.

    - 64 man tournament, only the Top 2 (Finals) players get reqs.
    - 96 man tournament, only the Top 3 (Finals) players get reqs.
    - 128 man tournament, only the Top 4 (Semi-Finals) players get reqs.
    - 192 man tournament, only the Top 6 (Semi-Finals) players get reqs.
    - 256 man tournament, only the Top 8 (Quarter-Finals) players get reqs.
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
  4. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT'S FINK DUMBASS
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    Unlocking this thread as it has been 24 hours. Post away!
    Noveliss, -herO-, Colonel M and 5 others like this.
  5. paperquagsire

    paperquagsire

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    I'd say Metagrossite should be banned. The sheer amount of sets it can run make fighting it and scouting it risky and guesswork, much like it was with pheromosa. This combined with its massive attack stat, powerful ability, and above average bulk and speed make it very influential on the metagame, more influential than it should be. Most of it's counters are checked through some creativity and its amazing movepool. Skarmory? Thunder Punch it after some prior damage. Ferrothorn or Scizor, which were considered blanket checks for a while? HP fire is on the rise, or an attack boost can ruin them. Slowbro? Who runs that anymore. Metagross can tear through nearly every wall, is easy to build around, has a great speed, and has better defenses than Skarmory. There is no reason it should stay in the tier when it essentially is the tier right now.
  6. UltraBallz

    UltraBallz

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    Okay, so I am really interested to see where people stand on this. If you asked me a month or two ago I probably would have said ban in a heartbeat. Now I am not so sure. I feel like there is definitely a difference between something being damn good and something being broken and I think M-Gross is kind of right on that line. The thing to me that separates this from something like Pheromosa is pretty much every playstyle has decent/easy to fit counterplay to Metagross. (ex. offense forced to run a mon like toxapex just to avoid losing to Mosa). To me there are a pretty large number of things relevant to the tier that can switch in to gross and things that can revenge kill or force it out. I don't really feel the need to list all these as they have been done already by the tiering council.

    Also, introductions of new powerful megas in the tier have proven to pressure metagross decently for a team slot. Mawile and Medicham are significantly better breakers than Gross is despite trading defensive capabilities and speed. Before these mons were released there was literally no reason to run anything other than Gross or Scizor to counter Gross, which I felt was incredibly centralizing. Now, with new toys to play with I don't think Metagross is quite as centralizing as it was earlier in the meta. Gross cannot cripple strong defensive cores nearly as well as these mons and quite honestly can turn into a momentum drain (this may sound a little too harsh but I don't know how to word it better) if the opponent has a reliable switch in that you don't have coverage for, like Mega-Scizor.

    One thing to me that makes Metagross so good (and obviously the best mega) is its stupid natural bulk and good defensive typing. It can switch in on a lot and add greatly to the defensive synergy of a team unlike most of the traditional fast hard hitters you would think of and other megas available to us. I don't neccessarily think this (on top of its offensive prowess) makes it broken, just a really damn good mon. I think as of now I would vote No Ban because Mega-Metagross has relevant and easy to fit answers for every playstyle, however in the future I can definitely see this thing becoming more broken as additional suspects take place. (looking at you gren)
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2017
  7. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Breaking hearts since '09
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    I have some unpopular opinions that might be brought with intense backlash, but I honestly couldn't care less. I really want to create discussion here.

    I really feel that Mega Metagross's beneficial attributes are being inflated in comparison to its flaws. No one is denying its influence on the metagame and its undeniably the best mega evolution, heck best pokemon in the tier atm. The issue I am noticing here is the concerning amount of statements that paint an over-exaggerated light upon Mega Metagross's capabilities in battle. Its coverage + its high attack in tandem with Tough Claws is the main reason why its being perceived as "uncheckable". However, I must agree with ABR here that the damage calcs don't match up with the claims suggesting Mega Metagross's "overbearing" wallbreaking capabilities. I won't C/P the calcs he posted, but I just wanted to highlight that defensive walls such as Mew, defensive Tangrowth, Mega Scizor (running HP Fire hinders Mega Meta's wallbreaking proficiency, since it would much rather hit other targets instead), and Rotom-W, on top of it being quite easy to wear down by hazards and Rocky Helmet restricts Mega Metagross volatile offensive presence towards defensive teams. Although all the aforementioned walls cannot blatantly OHKO Mega Meta after sustain a hit, they can all severely cripple it with status moves, rendering it practically useless afterwards. Yes there is Attack raises from Meteor Mash, but that is delving into arguments of chance/luck which imo should not be discussed when deciphering whether or not a mon is broken or not (since potent offensive consistency is what should be factored).

    Its Speed tier, while good, also does not prevent it from being checked by faster threats such as both Greninja forms, Tapu Koko, Choice Scarf Garchomp, and Dugtrio. Yes there is Bullet Punch, but yet again forfeiting coverage moves such as Thunder Punch, Ice Punch, Hammer Arm, and Earthquake can really limit Mega Metagross from breaking through defensive mons its theoretically supposed to beat. Its bulk does allow it to stomach hits way better then any other offensive threat, however a weakness to a multitude of common offensive types such as Dark, Ground, Ghost, and Fire prevents Mega Meta from actually sustaining hits its supposed to.

    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-559480201
    I feel this replay demonstrates the points I have just brought up greatly. It is able to get a kill, but gets forced out by Scarf Garchomp and is unable to come back in thanks to hazards limiting the amount of turns it can come in.

    Yes SuMo increased Mega Metagross's viability greatly mainly thanks to the speed mechanic buff on top of the terrain support it can abuse, turning it into one of the most dangerous threats in the metagame. However, I am sorry but I just do not see believe these changes have pushed it over the edge, thus leading me to believe that it deserves to stay in OU.
  8. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT'S FINK DUMBASS
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    It's no surprise that I'm coming out as pro-ban on Mega-Metagross, but I would like to give a bit more of an in-depth opinion and justification than I did in my initial paragraph posted in the the second post of the thread.

    To preface this post, I would like to take a line from the OU Tiering Policy Framework in order to make my reasoning a bit more clear to those reading. The portion of the Tiering Policy I will be using is:

    I feel as if this definition applies to Mega-Metagross moreso than it does a lot of the previously suspected and even banned Pokemon over the past generation or so. I do acknowledge the fact that there have been things deemed banworthy due to being uncompetitive or unhealthy, making this a moot point in regards to those cases, but the bottom-line, in my eyes, is that Mega-Metagross is broken in SM OU, as per this definition.

    I think that the best way to start explaining why I feel this way is delving into why Mega-Metagross is "too good" in the metagame, with specific emphasis put on how it holds this quality in relation to other Pokemon in the tier as the definition points this out specifically. Moreover, I will then relate that to how Mega-Metagross makes it so that "more skillful play" takes the backseat due to the lack of counterplay to it in the tier.

    If you look at the metagame, there are a plethora of strong Pokemon out there. You have glass cannons such as Gengar, Mega Alakazam, and the highly controversial Greninja and then you have bulkier hard-hitters like Band Zygarde and Offensive Heatran. I'm not trying to flat-out compare any of these Pokemon, their viability, or their qualities directly to Mega-Metagross as they're all entirely seperate entities in the context of the metagame and there's no need to compare them directly for the sake of this post. However, a general point that acts as a descriptor for the place and viability of Mega-Metagross in the metagame would have to be that it is one of the most well-rounded strong Pokemon in the tier. Mega-Metagross wields spectacular physical bulk and above-average special bulk, with 80 | 150 | 110 defensive stats upon mega evolving, and it obviously has sufficient attacking prowess as well. Top this off with being fairly quick, with base 110 speed, and you get a pretty damn solid pick for any offensive team, I'd say.

    Now all of the aforementioned characteristics are great and they make-up Mega-Metagross as a Pokemon in the tier, but standalone they do not break the Pokemon themselves. We seldom see a Pokemon being broken solely on the basis of good stats and looking great on paper. What truly enhances Mega-Metagross and what makes it too much for the tier is the practical uses of it, in my opinion. Obviously, it needs the stats it has and the other aforementioned facets of it as a Pokemon to function the way it does, but we have to take it a step further to draw a conclusion on how good it is, if it's broken, etc., so let's do so.

    Mega-Metagross doesn't necessarily have the most widespread movepool, but it easily has everything that it needs and then some compacted into a respectable movepool. With STAB Meteor Mash being a staple, it then almost always runs Hammer Arm or Earthquake to compliment this STAB, hitting opposing Steel types. Then, it runs Thunder Punch very often to hit opposing Celesteela, Toxapex, Keldeo, and other Water types, but this move isn't exactly a staple depending on the team and other moves. In regards to filler and other coverage moves or supportive moves, it can use Ice Punch, Zen Headbutt, Bullet Punch, Pursuit (generally only on teams with no other Steel type in order to mitigate the weakness to opposing Tapu Lele), Hidden Power Fire, and Agility/Rock Polish. Needless to say, Mega-Metagross has the coverage to hit just about anything it'd like to. However, it can only run four moves at a time like any other Pokemon and that's surely a limiting factor. With this said, Mega-Metagross can hit almost all of the metagame with three or four of the aforementioned moves and it can cater sets to the context of teams it is being utilized on, making it even more potent. Given all of these points, I think it's safe to say that Mega-Metagross stands out as an offensive presence in the metagame when talking about what it does and how it does it. Now let's transition into what this means, the counterplay to it (or lack thereof), and if this correlates to it being broken or not given everything taken into consideration.

    Mega-Metagross has a handful of checks and counters in the metagame. The issue at hand is that this is only a relatively small handful, not a healthy amount by any stretch of the imagination. Let's get into these potential stops to Mega-Metagross:

    Mega Scizor
    Mega-Metagross is generally countered by Mega-Scizor. Hidden Power Fire is still only seen on a fraction of Mega-Metagross and if it adds Hidden Power Fire, not only must it drop something else, but it also is generally used on a build that specifically needs to lure Mega-Scizor or at least keep it in check. Sure, these variants can be seen as an exception, but it is uncommon and Mega-Scizor is generally safe otherwise. Occasionally, Mega-Metagross will fish for a Meteor Mash raise and if it gets one, then Earthquake or Hammer Arm will do a significant chunk, but still will fail to 2HKO the standard defensive variant of Mega-Scizor. Basically, this is as good as it gets when it comes to Mega-Metagross counterplay on a fairly consistent basis. Some people argued that Hidden Power Fire becoming viable in itself is a pro-ban argument as Mega-Metagross can stay equally viable over time despite the metagame adapting to it as it can adapt to the metagame without losing a step, but I find this as an almost trivial sub-point that shouldn't be discussed at length.

    Defensive Tangrowth
    This leaf monster is actually very common and solid on the defensive end, often slapped onto balance and even bulky-offensive builds in order to make it so that they aren't weak to various threats throughout the tier and they still aren't too passive as Tangrowth has some utility and offensive presence. With that said, the most common variant is Assault Vest and this doesn't even really check Mega-Metagross as it cannot switch into Ice Punch or Meteor Mash after Stealth Rock and it cannot 2HKO it, either. However, Physically Defensive variants, specifically with Rocky Helmet, are able to check Mega-Metagross as it fails to 2HKO, Rocky Helmet chips Mega-Metagross, it can put Mega-Metagross to sleep, and do some damage with Hidden Power Fire, Knock Off, or Leech Seed depending on what other moves it carries. It is not a hard counter, like Mega Scizor, as it is still taking upwards of a third from Meteor Mash and around forty percent from Ice Punch, meaning that if it is weakened before or you get an attack raise, then it's lights out for the Tangrowth, but it certainly is sufficient in a metagame strapped for actual defensive answers to Mega-Metagross.

    Softer checks and less common answers (Mew, Skarmory, Slowbro, Rotom-Wash, etc.)
    Before I go on, I do want to say that things like Physically Defensive Hippowdon and Mega-Slowbro can counter Mega-Metagross, but these Pokemon do not see much usage at all, barely even qualifying for noteworthy in my eyes, so I will mention them here, but not elaborate on them at all due to irrelevance. Going onto the main purpose of this sub-point, Mew, Skarmory, Slowbro, and Rotom-Wash are the main Pokemon that are capable of checking, at least situationally, Mega-Metagross. Mew has become much more relevant with the release of Mega-Medicham and the metagame shifting heavily in its favor over the past few weeks and it can tank two Meteor Mashes, but one attack raise, slight chip damage, or something like a Will-O-Wisp miss turns this match-up into a blowout for Mega-Metagross with nothing being lost and Mew going down for free, essentially. Basically, Mew is a soft check that can end up getting fucked over if the situation doesn't play into its hands, but it can take two hits and that's respectable enough to mention. Skarmory lives two hits on stall if Electric Terrain isn't up and can counter, but is often either traded for Mega-Metagross in that match-up or it forces it out until you can chip it or get an ideal situation, assuming it runs Thunder Punch. I'd say it's safe to call Skarmory a decent check on a situational basis, but it's far from universal given the presence of Tapu Koko and the fact that Thunder Punch is ran on most Mega-Metagross currently, doing 40-47%. Slowbro isn't even too common right now, but I've personally liked it a tad more as of late despite it not even being a hard check to things like Mega-Medicham or Mega-Mawile as it has a nice defensive presence, but it can sort of check Mega-Metagross in the same sense it sort of did in ORAS OU. Thunder Punch isn't 2HKOing you after SR and Leftovers if you run max Physical Defense, but if you run a bit less or take chip that adds up to more than regenerator, then you're in a bit of a pickle. With this said, it does fit the definition of a check and it can potentially burn with Scald or status with Thunder Wave in the process of defensively checking it, so it's worth mentioning as well. Rotom-Wash is pretty bad in general right now, but it still sees usage, even more than some of the aforementioned Pokemon. It gets worn out very easily and it doesn't have as good of a general defensive match-up with the top tier threats than it did last generation, due partially to the power creep, but it still is viable and it can check non-Zen Headbutt variants when it is healthy, early on in the game. Eventually, it gets worn out too quickly and will not be remotely reliable, so Rotom-Wash is a very shaky, soft, and situational check at best.

    This is, more or less, a vast majority of defensive counterplay to Mega-Metagross. There is offensive counterplay in terms of revenge killing and that's totally a legitimate point -- Greninja, Ash Greninja, Scarf Garchomp, Scarf Gengar, Mega Alakazam, and many other things if there is significant chip on Mega-Metagross can all revenge kill it. However, this implies that they got in safely and none of these things can reliably switch-in, meaning that something else had to pivot in and take multiple hits to get a slower Volt Switch/U-turn in or something died. Essentially, you either need another check/counter in itself or you're losing a Pokemon to Mega-Metagross, meaning that this point is somewhat moot and somewhat a testament to the strength of Mega-Metagross depending on how the situation unfolds and while it is a way to get the job done, it doesn't make Mega-Metagross much less potent or broken, in my eyes. Another means of offensive counterplay is "playing around it" and this point is simply bullshit. Prediction is a two-way-street and you cannot base your argument around anything being broken or not on prediction. You cannot assume that the Mega-Metagross user will predict properly, nor can you assume that the opponent will. This point is moot and if you're forced to pivot and risk a Pokemon each turn, then it's a testament to the effectiveness of Mega-Metagross or your own poor teambuilding if it's in the initial stages of the game.

    I think that it's safe to say that only having a few actual consistent counters and hard checks qualifies Mega-Metagross for being a step above the rest of the metagame, barring a few other controversial and potentially banworthy Pokemon like Greninja (reasoning for why I wanted Mega-Metagross suspected before Greninja). Additionally, Mega-Metagross also fulfills the second part of the definition for broken, as the prior sentence covers the first part of the aforementioned definition, as if a team lacks one of the select few Pokemon with the appropriate set to handle Mega-Metagross, then they're going to be at an inherent disadvantage and Mega-Metagross gets in too often due to bulk and survivability to simply neglect in teambuilding when it's so common. Therefore, I can confidently label Mega-Metagross as broken as per the official definition of it in the tiering policy and I do not really have any doubt or hesitation in saying so. In fact, I'd say that this is the most clear-cut suspect in a long time, which should say a lot in itself. The only thing left untouched in this post is the fact that Mega-Metagross restricts teambuilding to a significant extent, which is implied from before given the lack of defensive counterplay and the fact that it warrants an actual defensive check/counter given how common and bulky it is. I suppose that if you didn't already connect the dots, then it is out there now -- you have to run one of the aforementioned few things to deal with it, specifically one of the more reliable ones, but the others work with outside support sometimes as well, if you do not wish to be put in a very tough spot whenever you face Mega-Metagross and this is far from healthy or ideal for a developing metagame.

    tl;dr = Mega-Metagross is broken and should be banned.
  9. Jiibriil

    Jiibriil

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    I'm gonna go ahead and say Metagrossite shouldn't be banned. Metagross is a great mega. Probably the best. His problem is that he suffers horribly from 4MSS, and unlike certain others (looking at you Greninja, Genesect, Mosa) he can neither pivot out nor cover everything. As has been mentioned previously, every playstyle has multiple ways to cover Gross. This is vastly different from Pheromosa, who, if you predicted wrong, would often sweep you. Metagross doesn't really do this. Many defensive cores can hard-wall Gross, if you don't have HP Fire for Scizor, he can come in on you all day and gain momentum and chip off damage with U-Turn until you're in range for something that hits harder. As great a coverage move as Earthquake is, so many things are immune to it that it's hardly on the level of Greninja's Ice Beam or Pheromosa's... well anything. It is rewarding to predict Metagross properly, and punishing to get it wrong. But getting it wrong doesn't instantly cost you the match, nor does getting it right instantly destroy Metagross. This is how it should be.

    On the other hand, there is no denying his ridiculous natural bulk. His Meteor Mash is nothing to laugh at. He stomps Fairies left and right. Metagross is strong less because he's OP, and more because Fairies are running rampant all over the place. Without Gross, I worry that fairies will run even more rampant than they already are, and alternative, slower megas, such as Mawile or Scizor will struggle and fall short of being able to deal with them properly. So I would vote No Ban because Metagross holds back the Fairy-flood and unlike Mosa has many checks and counters.
    can'tCatchEmAll and avocado like this.
  10. Ryolain

    Ryolain

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    I think the biggest thing that differentiates MMeta from other versatile offensive threats in the past is that (aside from HP Fire lures or meme sets) you can be pretty comfortable that it's running a pure physical set. This separates it from something like Phero, Gene or MLuke (sorry I didn't keep up with ORAS my references are old) that could play either side and/or run mixed set. This made them extremely hard not only to counter but to soft check with the rest of your team because you couldn't necessarily guess the whole set even after scouting. Since you know MMeta is always going to be physical, it's a little easier to check and play around because you can feel pretty comfortable about throwing one of your physically bulky Pokes in front of a predicted neutral/resisted hit and not having to worry about being blown back by a surprise special coverage move. When you take into consideration that you also always know what item it's running, you're ultimately just scouting for a couple coverage move. You get a lot more info about MMeta from team preview than you do with other broken offensive threats who could be running special/physical/mixed and/or Specs/Band/Scarf/LO/Exp Belt/Plate, all of which could require different checks or hit surprise KOs and leave you scrambling for a backup plan.

    This all being said, it's such a monster and it's so bulky that even in the short time it takes you to scout out its one or two coverage moves, it could've already torn a hole through your team that a cleaner could easily mop up. Sometimes it doesn't even matter that you know exactly what it's planning to do because all it has to do is pop in a few times in a match to wear stuff down with massive neutral damage and then switch back out before you can even stop it; in the replays I've watched, MMeta rarely sweeps on its own, but it nabs momentum with its bulk and then punches holes with its offensive power so efficiently that it puts the opponent severe behind. So I'm pretty ambivalent; it doesn't have that "well I'm fucked now" quality that Phero had after a Beast Boost, but I wouldn't be annoyed/angry to see it go, either.
  11. Colonel M

    Colonel M Like a Pope
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    It's pretty funny how Mega Metagross has "Meta" in its name. I feel at this point Mega Metagross is one of those Pokemon that still runs the tier. While there are certainly other things that coincide with being meta-trends, Mega Metagross stands out the most. First, it's hard to deny that this thing is very durable. In some ways it reminds me of DPP Garchomp in terms of durability - Yache variants were difficult to revenge kill as an example and Mega Metagross can often tank at least one super effective attack. Obviously DPP Garchomp and SM Mega Metagross are not comparable side-by-side, so outside of the durability and offensive presence it brings there's nothing else to compare.

    The biggest things to talk about are its relevant checks and counters. First, while Mega Metagross sits at an impressive 110 base Speed, it is still slower than threats such as Thundurus-I, Tapu Koko, Greninja, and various Choice Scarf users. There are some niche Pokemon that can revenge kill Mega Metagross such as CounterSash Alakazam, but for most teams they often struggle to effectively take on Mega Metagross at full force without getting very creative, prior chip, or Pokemon such as Mega Scizor. The most common and arguably most effective set is Meteor Mash / Thunder Punch / Hammer Arm or Earthquake / Ice Punch or Zen Headbutt. This alone covers the majority of threats that Mega Metagross faces that are slower than it and easily OHKOes or 2HKOes a lot of Pokemon with some support. Thunder Punch pairs nicely with Electric Terrain from Tapu Koko to blow through Water-types, Skarmory, and Celesteela faster. There's also smaller presence of Pokemon such as Slowbro and Suicune, though the latter is starting to pick up a little more steam after seeing a little use in OST and some higher ups in the ladder having success with it. The thing is Mega Metagross has some decent checks, but they can be easily overwhelmed. One example is Mega Scizor - most sets are very passive and it has to Roost to keep healthy. In some cases Mega Metagross can attempt to fish for Attack boosts with Meteor Mash to apply serious pressure to Mega Scizor. Though U-turn exists Mega Scizor usually has to stay pretty healthy to consistently check Mega Metagross and, in order to do that, usually has to heal to full before U-turning out. Mega Metagross can still cheese through Mega Scizor too with techs such as Hidden Power Fire and, though rarer, Power-up Punch. It's true that the use of these moves leaves Mega Metagross a bit more open to other potential threats, but they can still effectively muscle through a lot of Mega Metagross counters without many issues.

    Furthermore, another issue is its difficulty to kill from full health. Only Choice Specs Greninja with Dark Pulse can consistently OHKO and safely outspeed Mega Metagross. CounterZam is another potential Pokemon, though Counter is a one-time use and the opponent may not opt to attack Alakazam. Choice Scarf Gengar and Choice Scarf Landorus-T still need a little chip (more than Stealth Rock, mind) to safely OHKO Mega Metagross. There's also the risk of Bullet Punch in Mega Gengar's case - though it is rarer to be seen, it does put a bad choke on Gengar after a couple rounds of Stealth Rock. To be fair this can apply to Mega Metagross lacking Bullet Punch and stepping into Stealth Rock a couple of times as well, so I will concede that both are possibilities. Mega Metagross is certainly not invincible and is still prone to Spikes, Rocky Helmet, Rough Skin, and Iron Barbs. Eventually Mega Metagross can be worn down to where faster threats have an easier time KOing it.

    For what it's worth I do see some merit to the counterargument on keeping Mega Metagross around, but I think the combination of its raw power, great bulk for an offensive Pokemon, options to cheese through some of its checks and counters, and good Speed make it a very difficult Pokemon for many teams to handle unless they are extremely bulky. Even then, bulkier teams have to tread around Mega Metagross very carefully as the support with Electric Terrain can screw up stall pretty badly while Psychic Terrain Zen Headbutt can cheese through some of its other problematic checks such as Rocky Helmet Tangrowth and Rotom-W. In fairness Mega Metagross is not very agile outside of Agility, and sometimes it has to sacrifice a critical move to bypass some of its checks and counters.

    I am willing to at least play the suspect ladder and consider my thoughts on Mega Metagross as a whole before choosing (if I make requirements) on what to vote or at least how I feel about the new metagame without Mega Metagross.

    Though bypassing some of its checks and counters comes at a cost, it can be worthwhile for some teams provided the support is worthwhile for Mega Metagross's team. Furthermore, I also look forward to good counterarguments to keep Mega Metagross - I can't say that I completely disagree with PDC and ABR's reasoning behind their stances. Mega Metagross is definitely a very powerful Pokemon, and I think it is worthwhile to fully consider Mega Metagross, its affect on the entire tier, and whether it is 100% unhealthy or nothing more than a top tier threat.

    I hope the post I provided at least helps promote positive discussion to at least see what causes some of the strengths Mega Metagross has and how it can bypass some of what would normally be its potential problems.
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2017
  12. Eclipse

    Eclipse I've seen so much I'm going blind & I'm brain dead virtually
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    So this has been a suspect that, in the eyes of any OU player, people should have seen coming. Now that the time has come, it's time to give my thoughts on Mega Metagross. As we all know, this generation was very kind to Metagross be that in the form of the Mega Speed buff, new common threats such as the Tapus which are all immensely threatened by Metagross except somewhat for Koko, and the biggest problem: A number of its defensive answers that have been listed such as Slowbro, Mega Scizor, Skarmory, Gastrodon, etc. simply aren't as good in this metagame as they were last gen.

    So lets start with one of the most common "counterplays" in Defensive Landorus-T; while it helps chip down Metagross due to Intimidate and Rocky Helm recoil with proper prediction, in reality it's slow and still gets immensely pressured by Ice Punch. A fine way to wear down Metagross for offensive teams, although this isn't a sure-fire way of beating it, due to its complete lack of recovery and tendency to get easily worn down. Ferrothorn is a solid answer to non-Hammer Arm/HP Fire sets, helps wear Metagross down due to residual damage / setting up hazards for its team to wear Metagross down later on in the match. The issue is that you can't capitalize on any momentum you get from switching Ferrothorn into Metagross until you are sure that it is not running the coverage to beat you, which is gonna be a common trend for a number of these answers.

    Mega Scizor, quite frankly, relies on its ability to beat Metagross to remain a relevant threat in the metagame, and even then, it still has too many issues to be a solid threat outside of checking Metagross; SD sets are poor, giant usage of Zapdos, Lando-T, Ferrothorn, Tapu Koko, and Greninja, among other examples, greatly pressure Mega Scizor, meaning in a number of matchups it becomes somewhat of a liability outside of being a reliable answer to Metagross; even then, HP Fire sets are starting to become somewhat more common as many people rely solely on this mon to check Metagross, so this set takes advantage of it.

    Skarmory simply is nowhere near as effective as it was last gen outside of stall, which is the only playstyle IMO which can reliably take care of Metagross and is one of the biggest factors in why the playstyle is so effective in the metagame. Celesteela is okay, although the problem with these two is that Thunder Punch pressure the hell out of the both of them, most notably Celesteela which fits on more builds than Skarm does in this meta. Slowbro, although a bit better after the Pheromosa banning, still has to deal with the high usage of offensive threats like Ash-Gren and Tapu Koko which prevent it from doing much of anything in a matchup aside from switching into Metagross until these threats are removed. EVEN THEN it still has Thunder Punch to worry about, and with the state of hazard removal being mediocre in this metagame and how easy it is to set up hazards with the assistance of partners like Gren, Slowbro just isn't that great aside from checking Metagross, which it still has issues performing effectively. Alomomola suffers from the same problems as Slowbro in the form of Thunder Punch being good and common coverage to wear it down. Jirachi, quite frankly, is not a reliable answer to Metagross in the slightest; not even counting Earthquake sets, it has little way of pressuring Metagross back aside from Body Slam and the uncommon Fire Punch, while Metagross can sit there and throw off hits, fish for Attack raises, and in general, not care about anything Rachi can do to it.

    As far as physically defensive Tangrowth goes, the problem is that while that is a fine set in itself due to its ability to check Metagross, Assault Vest realistically is just a more effective set due to its ability to handle the likes of Tapu Koko and Ash Greninja which are a pain to handle otherwise. Physdef Mew also can find itself worn down in the course of the match in general.

    What is one of the most common trends regarding these defensive answers? Well, they either find themselves all being shaky checks depending on Metagross' coverage, and aside from Ferrothorn, Celesteela, and Lando-T, are simply not that great in the metagame where it ends up feeling like I'm running mediocre mons just to check Metagross, which I simply don't want to do, especially how awful the matchup issues are in the SM OU metagame where prepping for Metagross can be so build constraining that my matchup against the many great styles in the metagame such as Sticky Web, Stall, Baton Pass, among general builds become near impossible to prepare for in addition to Mega Metagross.

    As for the comparison to Medicham and Mawile, what Metagross has over these two which makes it far more constraining in comparison is its combination of bulk/typing/speed which these two lack. While I do agree that Mawile and Medichamare generally better at breaking, this in no way means that Metagross is ineffective at breaking; it has more switchin opportunities due to its amazing bulk and defensive typing which Medicham lacks, and has the ability to actually threaten a majority of the things it switches into with ease due to its amazing Speed which Mawile lacks. Most of the time, Metagross is simply so effective that I see little reason to NOT run it in comparison to another threat. I do not care about "it will become less of an issue in the metagame down the line", as we do not choose to not ban threats on this reasoning; if it's an issue right now, we get rid of it, not hope that it might get better later on. All of these reasonings I have listed in this post mean that, should I acquire reqs, I'm 100% voting to ban Mega Metagross from the metagame.
  13. Of Moose & Men

    Of Moose & Men

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    People keep saying there is "counterplay", but it's really not counterplay when Metagross is given the opportunity to remove them. It's easy to say "just switch in Tangrowth" and leave it at that. But that doesn't at all consider the fact that in Psychic Terrain, Zen Headbutt 2hko's Defensive Tangrowth (252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth in Psychic Terrain: 177-208 (43.9 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock). Or after a Meteor Mash boost, Tangrowth no longer can reliably counter as Meteor Mash 2hkos. It's no longer a counter, and lets not act like that's some near impossible situation that would never take place. The same goes for Electric Terrain. Giving Megagross the ability to run right through Skarmory (252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Electric Terrain: 198-234 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery) and. . . lolbro (252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro in Electric Terrain: 238-282 (60.5 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery). These aren't unlikely scenarios. These are VERY common scenarios in a meta with the Tapu's freaking everywhere. Many of these mons are no longer "counters" the second Metagross gets the attack buff from Meteor Mash or the terrains are up. So, your "counterplay" is no longer "counterplay". Your counter, becomes a check, and shitty one at that. Which means you now have to rely on hard hitting scarfers that can't be oneshot, but can OHKO in return, or have to run a Duggy with groundium Z or Sash + Sucker Punch. What great "counterplay". Pshaw, that's not at all broken. . .

    It's easy to say Tangrowth "walls" it in a vacuum. But, in reality, that isn't the case. The only surefire way to counter STAB Boltbeam Megagross is mZor, and even that has a hard time beating it at +1 with any prior damage. Even then, HP Fire, although it sounds hilarious, is capable of removing the one thing that can counter it 80% of the time. So, if you're going to bring up this "counterplay" argument, 1, actually explain why those things are counters, and expect to be told why they are checks in many scenarios. And 2, stop looking at these things through a vacuum. There is an entire metagame with 70+ completely viable Pokemon in it. Many of which allow Megagross to remove these "counter measures".

    If it isn't blatantly obvious, ban this stupid thing.

    EDIT:
    The meta gaining more problems with the exclusion of a 'mon has never been a viable argument for something staying. Let's cool it on that. I mean, the fact that these are 3 of the comments on the first page is showing there is very little in defense of Metagross. If you're going to defend Metagross, defend it. Don't take the slippery slope approach. It's a problem now. We deal with it now.
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2017
  14. Webcamparrot

    Webcamparrot

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    Mega Metagross is undeniably a powerful pokemon in the current metagame. It has a great typing, great stat distribution and phenomenal coverage. It excels at everything that an attacker could hope for. This pokemon is phenomenally good against offensive play styles but doesn’t slack against things like stall either. From amongst our selection of megas it is probably the best suited to deal with offence. Its fast, has good bulk and due to clear body its speed cannot be lowered by things like sticky webs prior to mega evolving. These are all things that make it great against faster teams. That is precisely why I DON’T think it should be banned, despite all of it’s impressive qualities.

    If Mega Metagross is banned the two premier megas left on the table are going to be Mega Medicham and Mega Mawile. As I’m sure we are all aware these megas brutalise bulkier playstyles but are relatively lacklustre against faster teams because of their relatively poor speed tiers and bulk. The meta game will get even more offensive with Metagross gone because of this. Metagross is also good against bulkier playstyles but it already shares a lot of its common checks and counters with those two. Hippowdon, Rotom, Bulky Zard X and Defensive Tangrowth for Mawile and things like Cofagrigus, Mew, Slowbro, Reuniclus and Necrozma for Mega Medicham. Metagross leaving the tier won’t really directly change all that much for balance, you’ll still need to run these pokemon but indirectly it will make offence a LOT more dangerous. I think a lot of us were spoiled by ORAS because Bulky Offence playstyles were so powerful for a majority of its lifespan and currently Bulky Offence is taking a hit because it’s only real pivot for Metagross is another mega in the form of Mega Scizor. In reality there are many things that deal with Metagross out there, the player base is just unwilling to use them. Mega scizor will also lose it's primary niche further negatively effecting Bulky Offence. Yes Metagross is also a pokemon that’s good on offence but it’s used on offence teams to make the matchup against other offensive teams better.

    Right now our selection of megas is so small that a ban like this can really shake things up in favour of the more offensive playstyles. Z moves and the introduction of things like Hoopa, Mawile, Bulu, Koko and Lele have made offence powerful enough as it is. A Metagross ban will see a reduction of team variety and If like me you don’t want to see offensive playstyles become even more powerful: vote no ban. When and if things like Mega Lopunny and Mega Diancie are released I believe a Mega Metagross suspect could be revisited.
    can'tCatchEmAll likes this.
  15. Sun King

    Sun King

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    Gonna keep it brief, since a ton has already been said...

    I think this suspect is gonna boil down to whether or not people like the meta without it better rather than brokenness. I think Metagross is absolutely one of the two pillars (Greninja being the other) stagnating this metagame. It forces you to use a very small list of viable pokemon just to counter it, and checking it requires a bunch of shaky counterplay. You either need to soak up some hits with something that has Rocky Helmet or Iron Barbs or wear it down with hazards (which requires you to have the ability to even get them out) just in order to reliably revenge it. I've had a great distaste for this mon since the beginning of SuMo because it's just such an easy button in team building and I honestly think it doesn't promote skill for people that use it because it's just that damn good. I really think it's similar to Aegislash in that it warps the metagame and is the undisputed king of OU despite not necessarily being broken per se.

    We don't keep broken in the tier to check broken. We go through this argument every suspect...
    That point notwithstanding, there are PLENTY of Steel types in the tier to deal with Fairies.

    TL;DR Gonna vote ban because this metagame has gotten really stale due to Metagrossite.
  16. ABR

    ABR
    is a Tiering Contributorwon the 13th Official Smogon Tournamentis a defending World Cup of Pokemon champion

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    I suppose I'll say something before a lot of faulty arguments follow.

    It is very true that the defensive answers to Metagross like Scizor, Tangrowth, and the like can get worn down. And to people saying "don't treat it as a vacuum", you're not wrong. However, if you're going to say that Metagross answers can get worn down, then you have to also say that Metagross can get worn down. You can say "oh Tangrowth is left at 60% so Meta can 2hko it and thus Meta is practically unwallable!" but you'd have to also say "damn my Metagross got chipped to 60% so if I hit Tangrowth twice I'm going to die to the next round of spikes!" Another thing to consider here is that Metagross doesn't actually have any form of recovery, while many of its walls do. It is just iintellectually dishonest to say that a pokemon is broken because its switchins are usually worn down, if that were the case then almost every offensive pokemon would be broken. Wearing down a pokemon's counters is a very skillful way of playing this game, and so is keeping your threat healthy if you need it. The fact that this dynamic exists is not indicative of brokenness in the slightest.

    Please keep your arguments balanced and honest.
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2017
  17. Of Moose & Men

    Of Moose & Men

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    Except it's not that they are "worn down". It's that they can be removed by the Pokemon they are supposed to "counter". Did you purposely refuse to acknowledge that point? I never said Megagross couldn't be worn down. But lets be real, your argument is "but I can just wear it down" while also losing your "counter" in exchange for some chip, you have to see the problem with that. Pheromosa can be worn down. Greninja can be worn down, Aegislash can be worn down, being worn down is a terrible reason for it to stay. You can try and defend a paper thin reason like "it can be worn down" all you want, but over being "balanced and honest" we need to also be realistic.
  18. Sun King

    Sun King

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    I think the point he's trying to make is that you have to extend the argument both ways. The manner by which Meta's counters are invalidated is hax, and you can also extend that both ways. I think you're overhyping the degree to which Meta muscles past its answers, despite agreeing with you that Metagross is a tremendous burden on the metagame.
    paperquagsire likes this.
  19. teal6

    teal6 believe in yourself and you will succeed
    is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

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    I'll probably write more on this later, but the number one thing rewarded in the SM metagame right now as far as I can tell (for the vast majority of matchups) is proactive play. I think ORAS spoiled a lot of players in the sense that a well built team with even minor favorable matchup was enough to climb the ladder or enjoy a fair amount of tournament success. This, in my opinion, was a large reason why ORAS devolved fairly quickly into very similar archetypes being repeated over and over again with only a few breakout teams or novel sets in the latter like year and a half.

    Metagross is a mon that encourages and rewards proactive play, which jives well with SM as a whole. It's not enough to have a solid team anymore, the player themselves are asked to navigate it properly. The "broken checking broken" argument is simply silly at this stage - things are relative to one another, and the power level of Gen 7 is high enough that Metagross isn't terribly out of place. It's a mon almost as straightforward as they come - you know what it's clicking 90% of the time, and the ability to dance around and punish a Metagross player being linear is a neat part of the metagame.

    In talking with ABR just now I likened SM currently to how I see and enjoy ADV, which I would consider the most enjoyable of all 7 OUs (GSC probably being the most "balanced" without getting into RBY where limitations dictate that there's basically 0 matchup advantage ever). ADV is HUGELY focused on rewarding proactive play, which is something a lot of novice players tend to miss due to the length of the matches and relatively low power of most of the mons in the tier. This is why stall is so incredible easy to use vs newer players in the tier in ADV - due to the lack of team preview and the lack of interest in making aggressive plays vs unknown mons, they often let games get away from them until it is too late. This is something I've discussed with BKC a bit as well some time back - being able to analyze and act accordingly against information that isn't confirmed, reading the player that you are playing against, etc. is a majorly rewarding factor in ADV and I think that carries to SM as well.

    In ABR's most recent post in this thread he mentions how it is disingenuous to pretend that Metagross doesn't get chipped down, but insinuate that its checks do. This is entirely correct! The dance of luring Gross into say Rocks + Spikes, switching in Scizor do eat a Mash and then Roosting as it switches out is what Pokemon is all about. That's a long term plan that rewards the more active player who foresaw a way to beat down the Metagross. More aggressive players can enjoy tactics like getting a Specs Hydro Pump off with a Greninja after luring out an Ice Punch from Gross on their Landorus - there's innumerable way to play this game, and I think longing for straightforward matchup wins is to the detriment of what Gamefreak has given us this generation. The power level has raised and now players are being asked to actually play the game at a high level, not just have a high level team. I think this is a very good thing and shouldn't be punished.

    (For the record, the other most recent ban, Pheromosa, I think did the opposite of what I am championing here. Mosa's bread and butter set - U-Turn - rewarded players who were not asked to analyze the game state to any high degree. A momentum gaining move that could essentially wallbreak at the same time is a good tool for those not terribly interested in reading their opponent or the battlefield at all - thus, this was a good ban. I don't think Metagross falls into this category at all)

    Do not ban
  20. ian smart

    ian smart

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    I think mega metagross is not broken by definition, but i think there's more to it than "being broken". Mega metagross has a lot going for it. Tough claws + Base 140 attack, extreme bulk 80/150/110, and a really good speed tier being base 110. That being said, mega metagross is not unwallable nor is it unkillable. it can be worn down VERY easily because it has 0 forms of reliable recovery, and after a little chip, it can be revenged by the likes of koko, gren, and scarfers like garchomp. The pro ban argument for banning gross isnt that it is broken, but that it has an unhealthy presence on the tier. I'm not 100% sure if i agree that it is unhealthy to the point of me wanting to ban it. If gross leaves, i do think the meta will be slightly less bad, but i dont think it is the main reason as to why the meta seems so bad. Its simply icing to a poisonous cake. not the main problem, it only make the problem a little worse. I think we need to address other issues before looking at gross, because those other issues might impact how unhealthy gross makes the tier. For this reason i will be voting no ban, but i am open to other perspectives on the issue.
    NewfieDude likes this.
  21. ABR

    ABR
    is a Tiering Contributorwon the 13th Official Smogon Tournamentis a defending World Cup of Pokemon champion

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    I want to echo teal6's sentiments, especially in the sense that SM is and should be a very fluid and proactive metagame.

    With each generation to come, more and more threats are being added, and they are getting more powerful. We all know this. One kind of tiering philosophy may have worked in or applied to ORAS or older gens, but if the metagames are changing then so should our treatment of them. It is unreasonable to practically expect 100% full counters to every pokemon on every single team. There are simply too many metagame factors at play for this to be possible. It may seem like banning Metagross helps this cause, but it really does not. Metagross is a long step away from the level of metagame breaking presences like Pheromosa or Zygarde-Complete. Those pokemon force specific and few counters, while Metagross can be intelligently adapted to and played around, with a good amount of counterplay options. So, if we can't drastically change what gamefreak is putting out with each generation (banning every big threat), what can we change? Well, our perspective, of course.

    There's more to beating a pokemon than 100% hard walling every single set it has. There's a whole slew of pivots, revenge killers, and means of weakening something that contribute to the grand goal of winning. Now, I won't deny that having pretty good switchins is the safest way to go about something, but it is not the only way. Even in say the worst case scenario that Metagross has Thunder Punch + HP Fire for your Celesteela + Scizor, you can theoretically directly switch in your Scarf Garchomp on either move. Again this shouldn't be a first response but it's an example of fluid and dynamic counterplay that can be applied to real scenarios. Additionally, if your main Metagross answer is dead for whatever reason, you can maybe go Landorus on a non - Ice Punch and then your Toxapex walls it for the time being. Additionally, Metagross is prone to passive damage and has no recovery so it isn't switching in as much as people may think. Applying your own pressure, assuming you aren't confident in your defensive measures for whatever reason, is a good way to prevent Metagross from getting too many kills. This next part may be more subjective, but considering the practical and dynamic ways of dealing with Metagross even beyond its hard counters, it truly is not overly burdensome to counteract.

    Whether by walling, pivoting, wearing down, 1v1'ing, or revenging, the overall counterplay to Metagross is ample in the current metagame, and does not stray much from the overall pace of gen 7 overall. Keeping this in mind, in addition to the state of Pokemon's development over the years and how we need to address tiering, Metagross should stay in OU.
  22. Sun King

    Sun King

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    For one, I'm willing to accept the premise that tiering philosophy can change generation to generation, but I just can't get on board with what you and teal are saying about Metagross. Yes, this metagame is significantly more proactive, and that's how we've resolved tackling the power creep as users. I even agree with you that it's okay that we don't have 100% counters to for every pokemon on every team; ORAS had a large matchup component like that, and it was fine. My issue is that Metagross poses a significant threat to virtually all teams that DON'T carry one of 2 or 3 offensive mons or one of 2 or 3 defensive ones. It makes teams start to look the same, and honestly the only team I've had fun with post Phero-ban is imsosorrylol 's Trick Room team (which is great for reqs, js).

    I don't think we should adopt a tiering philosophy that allows metagames to stay stale, and this is something I've come full circle on in the last few years (I was vehemently anti ban in XY Aegi suspect). That said, you can't honestly tell me that Metagross hasn't singlehandedly shaped MUCH of the tier; for crying out loud, literally ALL of the Scarfers in the meta are made to beat it with a tad bit of residual damage.

    EDIT: I accidentally posted this before finishing.

    I think we should ban Metagross because I would like to see the metagame develop beyond the same pool of things that can check Metagross at 75% HP, etc.
  23. nofakethekairi78

    nofakethekairi78

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    Finally! This thing is suspected!


    The problem with this thing, is its Freaky hard to check it!

    Why is it a problem in gen7 and not in gen6?Because in gen6, before the mega, you could weaken it(70Speed is mehh), but now, you cant because of the Mega evolution buff. Consequently, its harder to kill it.

    The only relevants mons which outspeed and ohko megagross are: specs greninja;scarf hoopa-unbound(with dark pulse+roll)

    What about scarfers?

    252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 230-272 (76.4 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HK0

    252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 248-294 (82.3 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    They are ohkoed in return by ice punch....

    Idem with other scarfs,thanks to its ridiculous bulk( 85/150/115)

    It has also a good defensive typing+a rock resistance...

    It can mega evolve and ohko the majority of mons which are slower than it,with its high atk(145)+Tough claws+its good moovepool.


    How to deal with it?

    With offense teams, you should weaken it with faster pokemons/use a lure. But at worst, it will have 1 kill easily.

    With balance teams, tangrowth/mega scizor can more or less deal with it. But they are easily pressured

    It isnt hard to get rid off Mega scizor with mmeta's teammates

    Tangrowth is pressured and:

    252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth in Psychic Terrain: 177-208 (43.9 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    If Psychic Terrain is here, it is 2HKOED...

    Bronzong can check it, if it isnt weakened. Homever, it isnt the best mon in ou and, it has no recovery

    252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 100-118 (29.5 - 34.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong in Electric Terrain: 113-133 (33.4 - 39.3%) -- 80.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    The problem with it is: it isnt hard to pressure it...
    They are also Slowbro and Hippowdon, but they arent good in this tier, and they are also easily pressured... Idem with other balance mons(rotom-w;ferrothorn;...)

    With a stall team, Skarmory can more or less wall it, but it is pressured by Thunder punch, and with Electric Terrain, it is 2HKOED...

    Mega Metagross has only 1 flaw: the 4MSS.Even it has an answer for everything, it has no answer for everything at once.. Its not a big problem with good teammates...

    Megagross is: bulky as hell/fast/powerful; it can beat every playstyles;its Very hard to check it;its Very easy to place it;...
    They are litteraly no drawbacks to use this thing in a team and in Every battles, it will be a threat for the foe's team.

    even,I recognize it is a good way to deal with Fairy types in ou,this thing is unhealthy due to its rawpower.I support a ban.

    PS: if someone have anti ban arguments, im here :p
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2017
  24. 6ft Torbjorn

    6ft Torbjorn formerly JoycapJoshST

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    Tbh I think we're kind of overthinking this entire thing, as we have data of MGross being released on bail last gen (around 57%, if I'm not mistaken). As a few of you may have heard me say on Discord: I would have quickbanned Gross at this point in time as a judgement call of this very event, and I will be happy to explain so as to why. I'm aware this sentiment sounds odd to a few of you, and you can think of it as my way of saying ban.

    The main thing bought to my attention is the auto-mega speed buff, which means it can now stay in on the things it previously couldn't to snipe with it's coverage (examples of Dragonite; Heatran etc.). 110 is already a superb speed tier to have, and combining it with 145+ attack; natural bulk higher then walls such as Skarmory (seriously GF what were you smoking?) and a general stat structure lacking sod all I believe leads to an abomination that has no place in this tier (unless you guys want to say hi to Genesect again). I did initially question the meaning of this turn, as MGross would end up playing no differently than ORAS once that turn has passed, and during that turn back in ORAS it would be easy for MGross to find something to check. However, I was quickly informed of the fact that in certain cases: MGross was previously forced to take a hit upon Mega Evolving back in the ORAS metagame, which is what ultimately saved it. But as we know, this is no longer the case - and this alone justifies the extra 3% that saved it from a ban last gen. But wait, there's more.

    With the introduction of the Tapus (a thus, extra awareness of terrain), MGross gains yet another advantage that it really doesn't deserve. These rage from a STAB extender in Psychic Terrain (Zen Headbutt) atop immunity to Shadow Sneak / Sucker Punch / Prankster moves etc., to sustain through Grassy Terrain while partially offsetting it's Ground weakness. Not a lot to this, and I echo the sentiments of the likes of Finchinator and others in this regard (as do I the majority of this).

    If we remember back, I said that I would rather have this quickbanned rather than having to sit through a suspect. If we remember correctly, quickbans are put in place when the council knows that a suspect will generally be a waste of time. From the buffs shown above, I believe that either type of ban is justified. Not to mention that no notable new threats have really come up to stop it in a notable way. Lando/Tang/Garchomp? Pft... had to deal with you last gen. Toxapex? Who cares? Awak? Insert Spongebob 'do I have to follow you all day?'. You guys get the picture.

    With all this: ban
    Now I need a shower. Later.
  25. robopoke

    robopoke

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    Mega Metagross is great you can build your offensive team and slap in Metagross with the moves you need. Have EQ over Hammer Arm? You can try Magnezone for Ferro. You have Zen? Try Tapu Lele as a teammate.
    Considering the Megas without any recovery, obv Metagross is the hardest to wear down because of its bulk and resistance to Stealth Rocks.

    I used Utility Gross for a while and was honestly impressed. I Pursuittrapped Medicham Turn 10 and Bullet Punched Ice Greninja Turn 17. He prob predicted Pursuit and thought nobody runs Pursuit+BP.
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-559908469

    I also remember using Rock Polis 3 Attacks and the good thing abt that set is, you do not have to Mega instantly which helps against Landot+Heatran to avoid Intimidate and still outspeed both premega.

    Another set I used was Stealth Rock + Explosion for my Baton Pass Squad, which gives you incredible momentum, setsup Rocks against EVERYTHING:
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-559017449
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-563578547
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-561114858 tell me that turn 6 bluff wasnt godly
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-564061461 Stall

    Ill be sad but I will vote Ban for Metagrossite because it needs next to 0 support and does everything you need it to do.
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