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Announcement np: SM OU Suspect Process, Round 5 - I Can't Escape Myself (ARENA TRAP BANNED)

Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by Finchinator, Sep 2, 2017.

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  1. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT'S FINK DUMBASS
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    Hey everyone, the OU tiering council has decided to test Arena Trap.

    Arena Trap has been identified as a potentially banworthy ability in the SM OU metagame due to the effects trapping has on gameplay. Switching is one of the most fundamental components of competitive Pokemon, so it is only to be expected that an ability which removes the ability to switch from so many individual pokemon is seen as controversial. Dugtrio, the Pokemon in SM OU that primarily abuses Arena Trap, has been used effectively on a very consistent basis on various playstyles. It is clear that Arena Trap's place on stall teams has been a controversial topic throughout the generation, even leading to our second suspect test, and this is a large part of why we are looking back into this issue as we feel that Stall is as good as ever currently. And adding onto that, Dugtrio has also found itself popping up on balance and offensive teams lately and we find that the trapping support it provides is potentially too much for the metagame to handle.

    Moreover, Arena Trap itself has been the cause of many undesirable and restricted match-ups from a playing perspective, due to trapping which extends far beyond just ground weak pokemon. This suspect is meant to gauge the playerbase's belief as to whether or not Arena Trap is banworthy in the SM OU metagame.

    In order to fully examine Arena Trap's place in the current metagame, we must look into the defensive and offensive utility it provides the various types of teams Dugtrio is used on. On the defensive end of the spectrum, many believe that Arena Trap itself possesses one of the greatest aids to stall teams: the ability to trap would-be stallbreakers and threats to common defensive cores. For example, stall teams can get rid of problematic Pokemon such as Heatran, Tapu Lele, Tyranitar, and many more with the help of Dugtrio's Arena Trap. It is also notable that while Diglett is not the focus of this suspect test, it is still a viable option in a Dugtrio-less metagame because it can still very easily trap pokemon like Heatran, Tyranitar, and Hoopa with a simple focus sash set. Some people during the last suspect test even managed to get voting reqs using Diglett stall. But even moreso with Dugtrio, thanks to an increase in base Attack to 100, a handful of its old tricks, and even a new Z-move set, it can effectively be used to cater to the needs of Stall teams and make breaking them very challenging by utilizing the ability Arena Trap. Dugtrio is, for this reason, a staple on stall teams in the current metagame and it is often seen as a glue that holds them together, letting the playstyle develop into what it has over the past months.

    For balance and offensive teams, Dugtrio provides a presence that can synergize incredibly well with certain threats these teams employ in order to eliminate common defensive counerplay. Unlike Arena Trap's uses on defensive teams, it is meant to remove problematic defensive threats that can slow the progress of offensive Pokemon as opposed to the other way around. For example, a Pokemon like Mega Charizard-Y appreciates Heatran, Toxapex, or Chansey being removed and Arena Trap Dugtrio can make this happen. By extension, Arena Trap is often seen as restricting defensive counterplay to offensive threats encountered on balance and offensive teams with Dugtrio.

    While we previously suspected Dugtrio, Arena Trap is the subject of this suspect test. The OU Council elected to suspect Arena Trap because this ability enables the act of trapping, which Dugtrio itself executes, as explained above. We believe that this element may not have a place in the SM OU metagame and could thus be banworthy. It is true that Dugtrio is the only user of Arena Trap in the current metagame, but there is reasonable cause to believe that Arena Trap could be deemed banworthy on any half-decent Pokemon that would receive it.

    Additionally, Arena trap is incredibly similar to Shadow Tag, which was banned from OU last generation, due to the sort of mass trapping it enables. Only flying/ghost type pokemon and the few scarce levitators are immune to Arena Trap, so the scale of pokemon it traps is much closer to that of Shadow Tag than say Magnet Pull. So, even though Dugtrio is the only commonplace abuser of Arena Trap at the moment, the suspect test is asking whether or not this sort of wide-scale trapping ability has a place in the OU metagame. These are some of the reasons why we decided to suspect test Arena Trap instead of just Dugtrio.

    You can also see the section of our tiering policy that justifies the testing of an ability even when it has low distribution:
    Policy (open)

    2.) One important thing to note with this is that distribution both matters (in the case of large distributions) and doesn't matter (in the case of low distributions).
    a.) If Stealth Rock or Scald weren't so common, they probably would not be as controversial issues as they are.
    b.) However, just because something isn't highly distributed, like Shadow Tag, doesn't mean it isn't unhealthy. Some tried to state that Shadow Tag wouldn't be broken on a 10/10/10/10/10/10 BST mon, but this is the wrong way to look at it.
    c.) Things aren't broken (or unhealthy or uncompetitive) only in vacuums; they can contribute to the whole being greater than the sum of its parts. Instead, consider how potentially broken elements would be with average distribution on average BST Pokemon. If Shadow Tag was on, let's say 4-5 OU potential Pokemon as opposed to 1-2 and the average BSTs were something like 80/80/80/80/80/80, would it be broken?The take away from this is to not ignore distribution, but if lowly distributed, to assume how the element would take away from team building or battling skill if it was distributed to average pokemon in an average quantity.(Yes, we will provide average statistics)


    For this round we are going to have two alternative ways to qualify for voting:
    1. Laddering: you will need to achieve a COIL rating of 2700 (or more) in a /!\ game limit of 70 games /!\ on the OU Suspect Test Ladder (in which Arena Trap is banned), that will be implemented very soon.
    2. Suspect Tours: check McMeghan's thread.

    The suspect test will last for approximately 2 weeks and will end on September 16th.

    Use this thread to discuss the suspect and your thoughts on the suspect metagame. If you have any questions, then feel free to contact blunder, John, bludz, ABR, Finchinator, M Dragon, PDC, and/or TDK through a PM. These threads tend to get derailed so please make extra effort to stay on topic. Future suspects need not be discussed in this thread.

    Keep in mind that, as usual, it's going to be up to the playerbase to decide the outcome of this test. Good luck and have fun laddering!

    /!\Rules for posting in this thread/!\
    • No one liners nor uninformed posts;
    • No discussion on other potential suspects;
    • No discussion on the suspect process;
    • You are required to make respectful posts;
    • You are required to read this thread before posting.

    Failing to follow these simple guidelines will result into your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.

    /!\ NOTICE /!\ OU will not be tolerating any form of voting manipulation. Any attempt to manipulate votes can result in an infraction, loss of eligibility to vote in the current test, and loss of the Tiering Contributor badge. While we won't necessarily enforce super strict punishment, this won't be tolerated and will be handled accordingly. Voting manipulation can simply be described as attempting to get people to vote a way on the test in inappropriate manners. Bribing with teams to vote a certain way, directly messaging people to vote a certain way, publicly announcing "vote this way" all fall under voting manipulation. If you have any further questions feel free to shoot TDK a PM.

    Antar's edit: as with the previous OU tests, the B value for this test is 17.0. To figure out how many battles you will need to have in order to achieve reqs, first determine your GXE (shown on the ladder and when you type /rating) and plug that into the following formula:

    N=17.0/log2(40*GXE/2700)

    (Google calculator is awesome for this kind of thing).

    Here are some sample values:
    CODE:
    GXE N 100 30 90 41 85 52 80 70 75 112 70 324

    Tagging The Immortal so that this can be implemented on PS - thank you!
  2. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT'S FINK DUMBASS
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    As we did for the Pheromosa suspect and the Metagrossite suspect, each of the OU Council Members will be sharing our personal thoughts on the current suspect in the hope that it sparks good discussion, so feel free to respond to any of our points. If a council member did not submit a paragraph yet, it will be edited in once they write their paragraph in the near future!

    ABR (open)

    Dugtrio, and more broadly trapping abilities in general, has been a very controversial topic for some time. The first real stand against these sorts of trapping abilities was the Shadow Tag test back in ORAS, which resulted in a ~90% ban and carried through the generation shift. Now in SM OU, we are facing a very similar situation with Arena Trap. What I mean is, I find it very difficult to not draw direct parallels between the two abilities, as they are so similar in how they affect the tiers they exist(ed) in.

    A big part of the reason why I and many others find this sort of trapping unhealthy is because it eliminates the fundamental switching aspect of pokemon in so many situations. Unlike Magnezone, Dugtrio traps an immense amount of pokemon on many different team styles on top of that - trapping is manageable if it's in small doses. I think it's crucial to stress the actual sheer amount of pokemon that Dugtrio traps, as it may be more than people think initially. Dugtrio, across multiple generations, has been used primarily with a focus sash and trapped mostly ground weak pokemon such as Heatran and Tyranitar. However, Dugtrio in SM OU, with all of sash, z, and scarf at its disposal, has all the tools it needs to trap far more than the aforementioned pokemon. In addition to sash beating stuff like Diancie, Kartana, Kyurem, Magearna, and others, the screech Z set also enables the trapping of pokemon like Clefable, Chansey, and even stuff like Toxapex with no risk at all. There are also many more pokemon like Maw/Bish that lose to any non-scarf set but scarf does stuff like trap +1 Volc, Koko, and even something like a weakened rain Kingdra. Essentially, the amount of pokemon potentially trapped by Dugtrio is great in size, especially when made easier by the use of stuff like eject button and the nature of sash itself.

    Now, why is it necessarily an issue if Dugtrio traps so many pokemon? When the ability to switch is totally taken away and vulnerabilities are exploited, overall counterplay becomes very limited. There is only so much one can do in building/playing around Dugtrio, given how consistent it is at doing its job of trapping. Let's take the sort of abstract example of someone using Zard-Y + Dugtrio vs some sort of Chansey team. Now, as a game would normally have occur, the Chansey player switches Chansey in vs a Zard-Y fire blast. The Chansey is now faced with a decision: heal up to avoid the kill for the next time Zard is in, or predict the Dugtrio switch and switch out to something that can 1v1 Dugtrio. The thing is, the Dugtrio player can usually switch into it freely anyway, as the Chansey player is sort of forced into a lose-lose scenario. Now you might say that the Chansey player shouldn't be playing so passively or be using such a passive team, but the amount of similar scenarios that Dugtrio forces are ubiquitous, and extremely difficult to account for with normal means.

    I believe that Arena Trap, when primarily utilized by Dugtrio, is fundamentally uncompetitive and overpowering due to the massive number of pokemon trapped by it and overall has no place in this metagame. For the health of this tier, I will be voting Ban on Arena Trap.

    bludz (open)

    My personal opinion is that Arena Trap should be banned from the OU tier. Arena Trap is the primary force that makes Dugtrio unhealthy and, in my opinion, broken in the metagame. Because of Arena Trap, Dugtrio functions as a multi-purpose trapper that prevents any pokemon that are grounded and not Ghost-type from switching (and even Ghosts are vulnerable to Pursuit). This is a very large majority of the tier – and even if Dugtrio is not effective against all these pokemon, it has some utility against many of them.

    Dugtrio can perform multiple roles as a trapper – it can be a revenge killer, a wallbreaker (Screech + Groundium Z), or even an annoyer (Sub + Toxic). The versatility to able to revenge kill a variety of threats, wallbreak, and annoy are not enough to claim that Dugtrio is broken, as there are other pokemon who can do all these things in combination (i.e. Tapu Koko). However, Arena Trap limits counterplay considerably because you can’t switch out. The actual counterplay to Arena Trap with many pokemon amounts to the following – run Shed Shell, only net KOs behind a Substitute, or simply do not get a KO with that pokemon to allow Dugtrio to come in. As you can see, this is really forcing you to build suboptimally or play a certain way just so that one of your key pokemon does not get trapped.

    Some quick examples:
    1. (building)
    a. Having to run Shed Shell on Toxapex to avoid being creamed by Zard Y + Dugtrio archetypes.
    b. Running Skill Swap Chansey on stall to counteract being trapped and removed by Screech sets.
    2. (in-game play) Being unable to use Choice Band Tyranitar to make progress in a game against stall, for fear of it being trapped and losing it for the remainder of the match.

    I believe Arena Trap makes Dugtrio too consistent at getting rid of what it needs to in order to pave the way to victory for the rest of the team, whether it’s stall or Zard Y. Unlike other pokemon, it’s near impossible to actually build a way not to have a weakness to Dugtrio. It’s possible to build a team that has 2-3 hard checks to a pokemon like Tapu Koko which means you have it covered as you can switch into them in order to deal with it. But if you have even one pokemon that’s weak to Dugtrio, it’s a liability in those matchups regardless if the rest of your team matches up well against it. Essentially, Dugtrio can dictate its own thanks to Arena Trap. It doesn't mind bad 1v1 matchups (i.e. Ash Greninja) as much as it excels in its good matchups (i.e. Heatran) because it can switch out against Ash Gren but Heatran is trapped by Arena Trap. Shenanigans like Eject Button on some pokemon make it even harder to play around getting your pokemon like AV Magearna or Heatran trapped.

    I think Arena Trap is what breaks Dugtrio, and that we should ban the ability as a whole. While I don’t think any other pokemon (currently) has the tools Dugtrio has to fully abuse Arena Trap and be legitimately broken in the OU metagame, I think the ability exhibits many of the same traits as Shadow Tag did in ORAS. Essentially, counterplay to Arena Trap is limited to stuff like Shed Shell and having to make double switches or not use certain pokemon to net KOs. When Shadow Tag was banned instead of Gothitelle, it was partially because other users of the ability (Wobbuffet and Gothorita) exhibited some of the same unhealthy traits as Goth, even if they were not outright broken. I think the same can be said of Diglett, which can still be used as a Focus Sash trapper on stall teams, although it cannot match Dugtrio's offensive utility in Groundium Z sets.

    I believe that overall, Arena Trap has an extremely undesirable effect on the metagame, and would rather ban the ability as a whole – with no real collateral damage – than just Dugtrio.

    blunder (open)


    John (open)

    A couple of months after the release of SM, the OU council decided to suspect test Dugtrio. It was voted to stay OU back in February, but it was a close vote, which probably meant that it would have to be looked at again sometime down the line. When it was first tested, I didn't believe Dugtrio to be broken, or even unhealthy, so I voted no ban. Since then, however, the tier has shifted significantly, to the point that we're pretty much playing a totally different metagame. Dugtrio's role as a trapper that holds stall teams together has remained the same for the most part. The major difference now is that Dugtrio has found its way onto other types of teams and, in my opinion, the support it provides for these, is simply too good.

    Besides its usual Focus Sash set on stall, which is used to remove things like Heatran and Tyranitar, Dugtrio can be commonly seen running other sets such as Screech + Z-Earthquake and Choice Scarf. The former is a staple on the popular double defog stall team that runs rampant in both ladder and tournament play, as well as other types of teams. Tectonic Rage Dugtrio is commonly paired with Mega Charizard-Y to trap and remove problematic mons like Chansey and Toxapex (although the urchin sometimes runs Shed Shell solely for Dugtrio), so Charizard can have an easier time in game. It's not limited to just trapping these two either. In recent tournament memory, Tectonic Rage Dugtrio has been seen trapping and killing things like Alomomola and Mew, both of which it should have no business trapping. I find this completely ridiculous. The Scarf set can be a great asset as a sort of catch-all revenge killer. It can trap things like fast electric types such as Tapu Koko and Mega Manectric, which are the main sources of momentum for some offensive teams. It can also trap and remove other fast threats like Greninja and speed boosted Magearna, both with some prior damage of course.

    All in all, I believe that Dugtrio's presence in OU is unhealthy because of the strain it puts on the player, teambuilding-wise and in game. All of its qualities mean that Dugtrio will almost never be complete dead weight vs a decent SM team. Arena Trap being gone, in my opinion, would be a good step to take in furthering the development of the metagame. Because of this, I plan to vote in favor of its ban.

    Finchinator (open)

    Dugtrio has been one of the most controversial Pokemon in the SM OU metagame since the early stages of the tier and this is primarily because of it having the ability Arena Trap. While we have suspected it in the past, I feel that looking back into this issue is appropriate because the metagame has developed a lot, letting Dugtrio's niche on stall develop into a necessity on these teams, dictating how many games are played-out. Additionally, the ways in which Dugtrio is utilized have expanded and made it a much more effective abuser of the ability Arena Trap. The main set that has risen to prominence is the Z-Earthquake variant, finding itself onto many stall and balanced builds throughout the metagame. Given this, I think that Dugtrio's presence in the tier is no longer a welcome one, being generally unhealthy due to how much support it can provide both offensive and defensive teams through trapping. The ability Arena Trap allows Dugtrio to consistently eliminate specific opposing threats and walls depending on the set and team it is found on. Moreover, this lets Dugtrio give its team an edge in gameplay that not only can lead to acquiring at a numerical advantage in Pokemon, but also to leaving the opponent with insufficient counterplay, be it in terms of breaking prowess vs stall (see: stall abusing Dugtrio removing Magma Storm Heatran, Mega Mawile, Banded Tyranitar, etc.) or walling prowess vs specific offensive threats (see: Zard-Y abusing Dugtrio removing Heatran, Tyranitar, etc.), that leads to a pretty systematical victory for the Dugtrio user in some cases regardless of what the opponent does. While the element of trapping itself is not necessarily banworthy in every single context, I do feel like the increase in viability and practical uses of Dugtrio has pushed it to a point where it becomes unreasonable and banworthy due to the aforementioned impact it has on games themselves and the fact that Dugtrio has a clear negative effect on development of the metagame, leaving teambuilding for some archetypes quite limiting.

    M Dragon (open)


    PDC (open)
    My opinion on Arena Trap, as it was in the months before, remains ambivalent. On one hand, I believe that the overcentralization which we see in the current post-WCOP metagame is more an affliction of the OLT metagame than it is of the actual SM reality, but, I also recognize the long-term trends of Dugtrio usage and stall to be a growing theme. I don't believe Arena Trap is broken, in fact, I much would have preferred we re-suspect Dugtrio instead. I also would have preferred to have more empirical evidence to judge whether or not the post-OLT metagame continues to parallel the current one, but sadly we are on a bit of a tight schedule. As I have stated in the past, I have never believed it to be my job to make the metagame more enjoyable or better, but as it stands, it is hard to argue that Dugtrio does not have at the very least an unhealthy affect on the metagame. As I stated before, it would have been nice to view this metagame post-OLT with a closer eye in order to observe how this stall / trapping obsessive ladder metagame ends up, but the time limit of the test does not allow for that. I still need to decide whether or not Dugtrio-centric playstyles are really broken (was it broken during World Cup, for example), and whether or not it is equitable to ban something that causes extreme centralization (allegedly), but is not broken itself. So really, I do not know what I will be voting. Is this metagame just a result of ladder-centric tactics, or is it an entirely new beast separate from what we saw earlier this year? Has counterplay been exhibited, or inhibited due to the climbing nature of the ladder?

    TDK (open)
    With this Suspect, I'm sure the community will be very split, between the crowd that's left wondering why it took so long and the crowd that thinks testing it again is stupid. Dugtrio is definitely the most 'controversial' Pokemon this generation in terms of being banworthy; the only Pokemon tested thus far that didn't get banned. But here we are again. I'd like to say that I didn't want an Arena Trap suspect, I much preferred Dugtrio, but I understand why Arena Trap is preferred and, considering community opinion, think testing Arena Trap instead is fine. I think the metagame is pretty bad right now. There are a ton of playstyles that can fish for matchup wins far too easily, and Dugtrio's presence harms things even more. Simply put I think trapping as a whole is pretty 'busted' in Pokemon. It's not skill based and people who try to defend it as such as are foolish. There's no skill involved in silly situations where you're forced to heal or forced to lock into an attack that would lose you the game and freely allow Dugtrio in. And then there are "50/50" predictions where the Dugtrio player will have multiple opportunities to pull the trigger, heavily favoring him to get the prediction right at some point. Dugtrio itself, however, has some pretty insane options that can help teams circumvent otherwise nuisances. Groundium Z lets Dugtrio have ridiculous potential of trapping things it really shouldn't. Stuff like Chansey, Clefable, Toxapex, and even stuff like Mew can get trapped by this set with a proper prediction. What Scarf and Sash trap is pretty obvious so not gonna bother explaining that. All in all I think Arena Traps presence in the tier is holding it back tremendously, between being plainly broken and incredibly restricting.
  3. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT'S FINK DUMBASS
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    This thread will be locked for twenty-four hours and this post is reserved.
  4. Gary

    Gary Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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    Just a warning for all. When this thread gets unlocked, it's going to he heavily moderated, more than the past suspects. These suspects threads usually create toxic and volatile discussion due to the sheer amount of ignorant and uninformed posters that tend to flock here to share their "opinion" usually of which consists of very little actual play or watching high level games. I highly recommend before commenting in this thread, you think about what you're about to post, and ask yourself, if you truly know enough about the current metagame to have a say. If not, I recommend watching replays from the most recent World Cup, which will give you a good idea of the metagame itself, and how Arena Trap influenced quite a few of them, and actually reading what the council members have to say. With that being said:

    1. All one liners will be deleted
    2. All obviously uninformed posts will be deleted from both the pro and anti ban individuals
    3. All suspect talk not pertaining to Arena Trap or the Pokemon affiliated with this ability will be deleted
    4. "Dugtrio will be unviable if we ban Arena Trap" is not a viable argument and will be deleted
    5. No shitposts or memes
    6. No anti Smogon propaganda posts. If you don't agree with our decisions and it really hurts your tender soul that much, go play an official Nintendo metagame.
    7. Don't be overly hostile or disrespectful in your responses

    Failure to follow any of these simple rules after being warned will result in an infraction or possibly worse. If you chose to not read the rules because you were lazy, that's not my problem. With that said, happy discussing!

    This post is Finchinator Approved (tm).
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 2, 2017
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  5. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT'S FINK DUMBASS
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    I am hereby using my almighty OUTL powers to open this thread to the public -- post away :toast:
    G-Luke, Brawl MK, sedertz and 25 others like this.
  6. esdeflex

    esdeflex

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    I don't play OU very often, but I can definitely see why people think Arena Trap should be banned, especially with the introduction of z-moves, and dugtrio's much welcomed buff into it's attack stat. It isn't as bad as ST Gothitelle, but the auto-trapping mechanic is super busted. Forcing 50/50's just from it's mere presence is pretty busted on-top of pokemon like Toxapex pretty much forced to run Shed Shell. I personally don't think it should be banned, since I haven't really had the chance to battle many competent players using Dugtrio. I can definitely see how people view it as antifun and unhealthy to play against because it forces you to play so much differently to avoid being trapped. I'm on both sides of the argument, and can understand why Arena Trap is so controversial. Losing arena trap would be such a detriment to many solid teams, however it is probably the healthiest choice for the metagame.
    sssthegreat likes this.
  7. Moutemoute

    Moutemoute

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    Hey, just a random guy with a random question.
    If Arena Trap get banned from OU, then Dugtrio will probably not be used anymore so it will drops to UU. If it drops, Arena trap will be allowed or not in UU ? Thanks in advance for the answer.

    Now, let's talk about Dugtrio. It's clear that with 7th gen, Duggy became really good thx to +20 attack buff and the introduction of Z-Move. It can take care of so much threat on is own thanks to Arena Trap which mean that people have to be very carefull cuz' they can lost a Pokemon in a single moment. Furthermore, Duggy force Pokemon like Toxapex or Taunt Lele to have the Shed Shell if they want to be effective.
    Thanks to is ability, Dugtrio can help Pokemon like Chazirard-Y by trapping is checks / counters which allows it after to be allmost unstoppable. It can RK and/or Trap a lot of Pokemon particularly with Tectonic Rage + Screech which allows it to OHKO a lot of threat (offensive or defensive).
    I trully think Arena Trap is an ability which deserves to be discussed on some point cuz' it's almost broken and brainless.
    robopoke likes this.
  8. Celticpride

    Celticpride Do your worst, 'cause nothing's gonna stop me now
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    If banned, Arena Trap will be banned in OU and every tier below it, through PU. This is the same as every other ability or move ban historically. Note that DOU and LC would be unaffected.
    DazeJet, Sopheon, Eckleburg and 19 others like this.
  9. ACatNamedSocks

    ACatNamedSocks

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    I think that stall is really the reason for this. Dugtrio is balanced in my opinion on offense/balance. Dugtrio is very very frail. While focus sash exists, stealth rock exist as well, and if anything gets a hit on duggy then, it's down. priority and scarf still exist. Yet again, stall is poison to the meta yet again D:
  10. Sultan of Skook

    Sultan of Skook

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    Yeah, this ability needs to go. My main gripe with it is, as soon as you see a Dugtrio on the opposing team, you're pretty much forced to not play your best. Let's say I have a Choice Specs Tapu Lele vs. my opponent's heavily chipped Defensive Zapdos with a Dugtrio in backup. Normally, I should just kill the Zapdos, but with the Dugtrio, that play means I lose my Lele. So I have to try to kill the Zapdos in a subotimal way that won't get me trapped. Simple plays like pivoting, killing mons, even sometimes critical hits can lose you the game. And Dugtrio is hard to get rid of, once it's dead, it probably already did its job. This Pokémon is just so consistent and limits how you play so much, that its ability should be banned.
  11. Orga777

    Orga777

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    It is more than just Stall. People are using Eject Button more than usual these days just to guarantee killing something with Duggy. Especially on Pex. Heck seen a Latios with Eject Button once or twice. The problem with Duggy is that something can and will be killed by it with ease, and with Tectonic Rage it can blow back mons that would survive a normal EQ. Between the attack buff it got this gen plus Z-Moves, dealing with Duggy is not really as easy as it was last gen. Banning Arena Trap is the right thing to do at this point.
    Desen, Zetasniper, eht and 13 others like this.
  12. Ming549

    Ming549

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    I do believe that banning trap is the way to go. As can be seen by the previous suspect, the community has been split on this particular issue for a long time now but now that the sumo meta has developed further, and now that we've gone through olt, I think it can be seen very apparently by every informed player on the absurdity of dugtrio, and arena trap as a whole. The sheer momentum killing, game reversing ability arena trap has to offer is quite frankly not healthy to the metagame. The fact that you can auto lose a mon that could otherwise threaten ur opponents entire team without involving any skill at all is just silly to me. And for those of you who can say "oh just predict around it, it can be totally played around", thats just not how it works. With duggy, as you as you get it in on a grounded mon, its over, zip, case closed. (Unless ur running shed shell which is a whole other can of worms to be opened later) Whether it be on a free switch from a sack, a voltturn off of something, or the free swap that eject button provides (which its usage has seen a massive spike compared to pre-updated duggy), once duggy is in, you're in with it. This unconditional trapping also limits the player severely in game. As mentioned by the Sultan of Skook above,
    duggy can force the player facing it to play in un-optimal ways. His example provided is a great instance in how this exact scenario can happen. Moving on I believe that this also negatively impacts teambuilding. With duggy around, I believe the quality of teams in general has fallen off. Now, people can be offered the opportunity to build teams incredibly weak to certain mons, with their only saving grace being the resident dugtrio. As we will all likely mention as part of the pro-ban stance, stall is one of the greatest benefactors of this aspect. In the past, stall has struggled greatly with the likes of hoopa-u, mega mawile, and the more recent tapu lele. But with duggy in the equation, stall does not have to worry. All it needs to do is sack a mon to the said threat and then send in its duggy to eliminate it and then... poof, opposing stall killer is now dead. With this mechanic in the game, it allows play like this to flourish. Teams whose function in the meta otherwise getting by perfectly fine by relying solely on duggy to provide an answer to the mon/mons that would otherwise decimate it.

    Moving on, the presence of arena trap in general also completely decimates the viability of certain mons that could otherwise have use in the meta. The likes of mons such as volcanion, raikou, magnezone etc.(the list stretches much longer) have their viability severely reduced because of duggy. The fact that this single mon has eliminated the usefulness of all these mons is a bane to general creativity and teambuilding in the meta.

    Finally I would like to bring up the spike in specific items that duggy has brought. Namely shed shell and eject button. If I said to someone last gen, that I would be running eject button alolmomola, or eject button latios, in order to get in dugtrio, they would've called me crazy and written me off as another bad player. But this is not a bad set, this is not a dream. The upsurge that we have seen in the use of eject button, just, cements the centralizing role duggy has come to find itself playing in this meta. The fact that it, and it alone can come to bring usage out of a otherwise overlooked item speaks worlds to the place it has come to find itself. On the other side of the spectrum, as well as bringing viability for a reliable way to get duggy in. It has also cause an upsurge of a reliable way to get mons out. Shed Shell. With duggy, mons who would otherwise find themselves running other items of choice are forced to run shed shell in order to still perform their intended task to any degree of success. Take Tapu Lele and hoopa-u as prime examples. Normally, these two mons can view themselves as stall breakers but with dugtrio, they can no longer adequately fit that role unless, they run shed shell. Think about that. Two mons who otherwise would completely decimate stall in the past, are now forced to run shed shell, severely crippling their usefulness outside of the stall matchup. Forcing mons like these two to run Shed Shell in order to properly fill their roll on the team is absurd and severly limiting in terms of building and in play overall.

    I think that about wraps it up, thanks for reading this shittload of text if u made it this far lol.

    CelticEdit: please don't double post.
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  13. Lpow12

    Lpow12

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    I really got into playing the ou tier when sun and moon came out and finally took time to put together some good teams and climb the ladder, since then mega meta gross was banned and so was baton pass. I don't believe that arena trap should be banned not only because is is just a viable a strategy as running a hyper offense or stall team, it is built for a purpose. I also believe that to many bans and restrictions on move set specific things could be more problematic and generations move on and more and more new interactions are added to the ou meta.

    I felt the same way about the baton pass ban. The strategy of baton pass was obvious and you knew it was coming and haze and clear smog were ways to avoid it but that meant giving up coverage for other things. Arena trap works the same way. You can run shed shell or eject button or whatever you want but your sets will never cover everything, and that is what I think is the problem is that people want to be able to make a team that beats everything and that won't happen. There will always be new Pokemon or sets that seem broken and people want banned, but think is it because you think it is unhealthy or your team doesn't have room to cover it because it comers every other strategy you have thought of
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2017
  14. Altervisi

    Altervisi

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    I just started participating on forums recently so apologies if my opinion is a little off, I want to try getting more involved with Smogon though.

    I would assume the recent banning of Baton Pass would have had an effect on the power of Arena Trap in OU. Before so many teams carried Baton Pass so it was less viable to try and trap. Furthermore, I *know* this has been mentioned a lot but the fact that this one Pokemon forces so many others to carry Shed Shell is a heavy indicator this ability is ban-worthy, as it is clearly the inferior option in all situations except against Arena Trap.

    On the other hand, however, I was reading the OU viability posts and I don't see how you refuse to move Dugtrio to S, but also consider banning the only reason Dugtrio is viable at all. It's true that the ability is being suspected, not the mon, but surely as the only(ish) viable user, you have to look at the ability as limited by Dugtrio and its stats. Also as an argument against the ban using Shed Shell does limit mons, but doesn't make them unviable, otherwise the item wouldn't be used at all.

    I think a major reason everyone wants Arena Trap banned is that it does make playing less fun, Shed Shell is a boring item and stall is a boring playstyle, made only more effective with Dugtrio around, of course this does not mean it should be banned (?)
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
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  15. Divine Retribution

    Divine Retribution

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    Arena Trap sans Dugtrio is still a fundamentally uncompetitive ability, however Dugtrio sans Arena Trap is not uncompetitive.

    Also, Arena Trap making playing less fun has absolutely nothing to do with the suspect, and the last part of your post seems to ignore the fact that stall is not the only playstyle that abuses Dugtrio. This is not a stall suspect, it is an Arena Trap suspect.
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  16. Altervisi

    Altervisi

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    I agree that making playstyle less fun is not banworthy and that stall is not the only abuser of Dugtrio. I do think that stall however, is broken due to the presence of Dugtrio and that if you are playing stall, it is ridiculous not to take Dugtrio, whereas with other playstyles it is not fundamental, even if it is abused.

    I do find it hard to believe Dugtrio would still be competitve after this ban, with so many similar, but more effective Pokemon in OU and the fact that Dugtrio is quite easy to switch into, especially when it's moveset options will become so limited without Arena Trap.
  17. LordHelix

    LordHelix

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    No offense but who cares what happens to duggy if arena trap gets banned, we didnt care if pheromosa end up viable in ubers or not when we banned it, so why should we care what happens to the mole if arena trap ends up being banned

    If it proves to be broken/uncompetitive to the ou tier (and it is), it ends up banned

    Side note: if arena trap ends up being banned (hopefully it will) duggy is definitely gonna end up in pu alongside goth and alolan duggy, its definitely not ou (or uu/ru..etc) potential


    Edit: for my opinion (not that anyone cares) i think this is the best way to go, arena trap as a whole is uncompetitive. Yea trapinch and diglett are definitely not on the level of dugtrio but they still have the same uncompetitive aspect of trapping which i think has no place in ou

    Also small reminder that people on the last suspect ladder laddered with trapinch/diglett stall unironically and actually worked, please ban trapping as a whole
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
  18. DeathByWobbuffet

    DeathByWobbuffet sending big waves into motion
    is a Contributor to Smogon

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    Trapping as a whole has been a rather controversial topic for some time, dating back as far as the Shadow Tag suspect test last generation. Now that we've had time to see the metagame develop, it's crystal-clear that Arena Trap is an inherently broken and uncompetitive ability, much like Shadow Tag. Eliminating one of the most fundamental aspects of Pokemon—that is, the ability to switch—heavily restricts both teambuilding and playing with Pokemon that are vulnerable to it.

    For starters, let's take a look at the most common abuser of Arena Trap, which is obviously Dugtrio. If not for its ability, Dugtrio would see zero usage in OU because it would just be a terrible Pokemon. But because of its access to Arena Trap, Dugtrio has found its way onto all kinds of teams for its ability to trap and eliminate problematic threats and allow the teams that it's used on to completely avoid unfavourable matchups. An example is Dugtrio's role as a trapper on stall teams, perhaps what it is most known for. Ever since the very beginning of SM, Dugtrio has been a staple on almost all stall teams because it can remove the majority of relevant stallbreakers. Some examples include Mind Plate Tapu Lele, which stall would otherwise have few answers to because of its ability to simply boost up with Calm Mind and run through defensive teams, Kyurem-B, which stall would otherwise struggle to deal with because of its ridiculous power and access to Pressure, and Hoopa-U, which has a huge number of sets and can get around almost any defensive Pokemon otherwise. The list goes on. Dugtrio's ability to eliminate so many otherwise-viable stallbreakers allows stall teams to focus far better on the few stallbreakers that Dugtrio doesn't trap, making such teams incredibly difficult to break. Furthermore, Dugtrio can adapt to take care of what its team needs it to trap. For example, it can run Sludge Bomb to beat Swords Dance Tapu Bulu and Aerial Ace to beat Mega Heracross. This makes the "well just run a better stallbreaker" argument pretty much moot because there really aren't any. There's no way for offensive and balanced teams to prepare for every single type of stall mostly because of Dugtrio and its ability to eliminate almost any breaker it chooses.

    Dugtrio has also seen a decent amount of use on more offensive teams. In my eyes, there are two main sets that Dugtrio tends to use on these types of teams: Groundium Z and Choice Scarf. Groundium Z has seen a lot of use on a number of balance builds. In particular, it's become a mainstay on Mega Charizard Y teams because of its excellent synergy with Mega Charizard Y; it eliminates two of the best defensive checks to Zard in Toxapex and Chansey. After Dugtrio eliminates these checks, Mega Charizard Y can bust through defensive cores with ease. This is just one example of how Dugtrio is uncompetitive; despite the fact that a team with Toxapex or Chansey has perfectly good counterplay to Mega Charizard Y on paper, Dugtrio and its Arena Trap means that it's far less solid than it seems. This makes building around Pokemon that are vulnerable to being trapped very difficult. The other set I want to talk about is Choice Scarf. While it's far less relevant than other sets in the current metagame, it has still seen use on offensive teams and can still trap threats that other sets cannot. For example, it eliminates Pokemon such as Tapu Koko and Mega Manectric and has a similar effect in reducing the effectiveness of these threats heavily when Dugtrio is on the opposing team.

    These factors make it pretty obvious that Dugtrio is not a competitive part of the current metagame. Not only does it force otherwise perfectly good Pokemon to run suboptimal sets just to deal with it (e.g Shed Shell Toxapex), but it also completely removes the relevance of certain Pokemon from the metagame. The best example I can think of is Hoopa-U, which was banned to Ubers last generation for its ridiculous wallbreaking abilities, but barely sees any usage at all in SM, mostly because of Dugtrio's ability to trap it and invalidate its role. Furthermore, Dugtrio isn't deadweight outside of its trapping abilities; it can run Stealth Rock to provide role compression, Memento to create setup opportunities when it's done its job, and Choice Scarf to revenge kill faster Pokemon, allowing it to provide amazing amounts of utility even outside of trapping. All in all, it's very difficult to build and play around it in most situations solely due to Arena Trap. Saying that "you can just predict around it" is not a good argument because almost any situation where Dugtrio is going to trap something will be in the Dugtrio user's favour. For example, let's say that you have a Mega Charizard Y out and a Dugtrio in the back. Your opponent has a Tangrowth in and a Heatran as their only Mega Charizard Y switch-in. There are four possible ways the next turn can play out:
    • Your opponent goes Heatran on Zard Y, and you double into Dugtrio and trap and eliminate the Heatran, allowing Zard Y to easily clean up later.
    • Your opponent goes Heatran on Zard Y, but you predict them to stay in fearing Dugtrio, so you keep Zard Y in and hit Fire Blast. Your opponent is then forced into another 50/50 on the next turn.
    • Your opponent stays in with Tangrowth, and you go Dugtrio predicting Heatran.
    • Your opponent stays in with Tangrowth predicting Dugtrio, but you predict that and KO the Tangrowth with Fire Blast.
    As you can probably see, this situation is a 50/50. However, the Dugtrio user has the advantage by far because there is little risk involved for them. If you're the Dugtrio user here and predict wrongly then you can just switch out, and in one situation you can even force another 50/50. For the Tangrowth/Heatran user on the other hand, if you predict wrongly you lose a Pokemon and potentially allow something on the opponent's team to break through. This shows that there's little reliable counterplay to Arena Trap.

    Lastly, I would like to emphasize that it is Arena Trap that is the problem, not Dugtrio. We saw on the last suspect ladder a number of players using Diglett and to a lesser extent Trapinch on stall teams, and many of them were successful with these teams, as ridiculous as it sounds. Furthermore, the fact that the ability alone can turn what is otherwise objectively a shitmon into such a viable Pokemon should be enough to show how stupidly uncompetitive it is. I don't mean to theorymon here but I think most people would agree that placing it on any OU Pokemon would have the same effect.

    Ban Arena Trap
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  19. Altervisi

    Altervisi

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    No offense taken, I don't really care, one less Ground type (and a pretty ugly looking one at that) is good by me. Just disagreed with
    I still dont understand why we should ban the ability and not just Dugtrio altogether, last generation wouldn't that be like banning Protean instead of just banning Greninja? I understand I am a little undereducated though, so I am not presenting this as an argument!

    EDIT: Ok like I said, I'm new, I got confused in that I thought uncompetitive meant useless ahaha ('-_-)
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
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  20. Of Moose & Men

    Of Moose & Men

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    Because Arena Trap is clearly the issue. Is Sand Force Dugtrio going to be as problematic as AT Duggy? Obviously not.

    Your comparison between Ninja and Duggy avoids a key issue a lot of people tend to neglect. Protean was on Kecleon, and clearly, Kecleon was not broken. Arena Trap however, is on Diglett and Trapinch, and un-ironically, during the Dugtrio suspect; teams substituted Dugtrio for Diglett or Trapinch, and made it work. You know why? Because the ability was the issue, just like Shadow Tag was the issue.

    Trapping is noncompetitive in nature, this may be biased because I've pushed for this suspect for 5 years now, but it is. Removing a key aspect of the game, and/or forcing players to run would be below par items to deal with a single 'mon is just plain silly.
  21. thesecondbest

    thesecondbest Just Kidding I'm First

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    Protean keckleon is not uncompetitive. Digglett with arena trap is uncompetitive, just not strong enough to actually be useful. That's the difference. It's just the way tier leaders decided to write the banning criterion. It is kind of arbitrary though so I don't blame you.
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  22. BPGXMG

    BPGXMG

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    Protean was and is not a fundamentally uncompetitive ability. Arena Trap is. Given a decent, seriously made mon that was designed to have some merit in fully evolved Mon battle and is not flat-out invalidated by meta conditions (ex: a dragon type trapper in a metal with tons of fairies), it removes skill from the game.

    Tbh there's not really much to say about this that the council hasn't. Arena Trap is restrictive, it removes a significant portion of skill, and it's honestly been cancer for a while now. I'm likely not gonna get reqs for this as I'm busy irl, but if I do I'm for sure voting ban.

    As for what gets better from this, Heatran in particular benefits a lot. SubToxic is now the true stall breaking monster it was meant to be. Volcarona is hurt pretty badly here as now there's more of an issue in not running HP Ground. Hoopa Unbound also benefits decently as it's no longer limited to 1 kill. Gotta love that :)

    Aaaaaand I got sniped. :(
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  23. DrPumpkinz

    DrPumpkinz

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    I know that "Dugtrio will be unviable without Arena Trap" isn't a valid argument, but I understand that it's still a concern some people have. To those people, I have this to say: Dugtrio will not disappear from competitive play if Arena Trap is banned. While it won't be viable in OU anymore, it's still a blistering fast Ground type with decent Attack and access to Stealth Rock. Dugtrio will definitely still see use in the lower tiers.
  24. Altervisi

    Altervisi

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    This is a genuine question I'm not trying to be facetious, but how can something be uncompetitive if it is not strong enough to be used?

    For a question for the rest of the forum are there any other cases where an ability is banned and not just a Pokemon (other than Power Construct, but this is just basically a ban on Zygarde 100%)?
  25. Satanic Beast

    Satanic Beast

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    Shadow Tag, gothitelle, wobbuffet, gothorita, and wynaut
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