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Announcement np: SM OU Suspect Process, Round 5 - I Can't Escape Myself (ARENA TRAP BANNED)

Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by Finchinator, Sep 2, 2017.

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  1. Lameflame

    Lameflame

    Joined:
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    If I do decide to ladder for this and vote, I'd likely vote ban, but as in the past I find myself not agreeing with a lot of the pro-ban sentiments that I've read and heard thus far.

    First off, this needs no explanation but without Arena Trap, Dugtrio is a terrible pokemon with no future or viability in the OU tier. The aftermath of Dugtrio's tiering is not a relevant discussion point and should not be treated as such.

    Secondly, I don't think Arena Trap is inherently broken, nor do I find it "uncompetitive" (a term that really needs to die). I do not view trapping in general as an inherently broken mechanic either, so I feel no need to differentiate it from Shadow Tag, Magnet Pull or other methods. Trapping is a part of the game and has been deliberately included by the game's creators since Gen 2, and has been expanded upon in the generations after. The usefulness of Trapping is entirely situational based on which pokemon or trapping methods your team has, which methods your opponent has, and how the rest of the match-up looks after you've trapped your opponent's threats to your team, or have been trapped yourself. There is no possible way to quantify this. There are absolutely games in which Dugtrio, even in this current metagame, is completely deadweight and you are essentially playing 5 vs 6 -- hardly a situation that I would consider "uncompetitive" for the player with 6 relevant OU pokemon versus only 5. Alternatively, there are games in which Dugtrio can trap either one key offensive breaker or even revenge several pokmeon. Trapping doesn't make players win or lose -- players do, and making a decision about when to bring in Dugtrio, or click pursuit vs attack, or predict the magnezone etc. is not always as straightforward in practice as it can seem in theory.

    Now, it is fair to have the opinion that trapping is overly restrictive, centralizing or just too burdensome in any particular metagame and to argue that as grounds for a ban. However, there is a reason why this issue is prevalent now and has not been for the many years that Arena Trap Dugtrio has been in existence. To write it all off by a simple one liner and saying "arena trap is uncompetitive" is extremely lazy logic, and if you read the paragraphs written by the council members, several of them expressed their own sentiments about why this suspect is occurring now.

    Namely, although Arena Trap has not changed, the increased prevalence, versatility and team support of its premier abuser undoubtedly has. Dugtrio's scarf and Groundium Z sets not only trap more targets that were otherwise safe in the past, but the extent to which entire teams can now be tailor made to magnify Dugtrio's ability to do its job has pushed it over the edge for me. It is on these specific grounds that I find it necessary to ban Arena Trap, because with something like Eject Button, the risk vs reward is absurdly skewed. There is no "skillful" way to predict something like Toxapex, Tapu Fini, Latios, or really any average pivot to be holding an item which, indirectly, allows your only method of breaking certain teams or winning certain games to go down.

    I was entirely okay with the risk vs reward in the prior suspect, because Dugtrio itself is an extremely flawed pokemon with a great ability, and those flaws outweighed the ability's situational benefits. Focus Sash sets trapped a smaller pool of pokemon, were far more difficult to support and bring into play, and the only thing the opponent was required to predict was the trapper itself. However, it is extremely absurd to expect players to not only predict the trapper to come in, but to predict every possible instance in which the trapper could be brought into play. It has grown to a point where otherwise rational plays are potentially game-ending.

    Given only what I said above about Arena Trap by itself, which is what this suspect is supposed to concern, I ought to vote No Ban. But while I do think it sets very crappy precedent to vote for or against a suspect based on something outside the scope of what is being suspect tested, I also think that any reasonable person should understand what is actually at stake in this suspect, and what affect the most prevalent and noteworthy abuser of Arena Trap is having on the tier right now (re: Dugtrio). Instead of putting this on the council for not labeling this a re-suspect of Dugtrio, I am just going to be forthright in saying that I want Dugtrio banned and put the onus on me as the player to honestly explain my vote.
  2. Spohky

    Spohky

    Joined:
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    [​IMG]
    I don't post here often (because I don't want to contribute uninformed posts and hamper discussion, so I lurk more), but I feel I am qualified enough to discuss Arena Trap, having seen – I kid you not – hundreds combat situations involving it.

    I encourage – no, urge – people to please consider vote ban. And what's my reasoning?

    The others above me have done a good job discussing Dugtrio's stats and ability. Thus, my post will focus more on the negative impact Dugtrio has on the metagame, per my observations. I'm not covering stats – the people above me have already done that.

    Based on my observations over the last 6 months, the meta has developed in the following manner:
    • Teams featuring Dugtrio have been ridiculously difficult to defeat, and have infested the meta as a result. My proof of this is the fact that Dugtrio currently occupies #5 on OU's most used. The quintessence of this is Zard Y + Dugtrio BO and Sableye Stall, the latter of which has persisted ever since the dawn of S/M (as a testament to the power of the Stall). Earlier teams included pairing it with Pheromosa to eliminate Toxapex and Mega Metagross, or using it alongside Volcarona (has fallen off somewhat in favor of Mega Charizard Y).
    • Because Dugtrio is so prominent, Shed Shell has been forced onto mons such as Tapu Lele, Toxapex, and Hoopa-U. The problem with this item is that it is useless in every other situation, limiting its merit. I don't think this is the right direction OU should be taking, forcing niche items onto random mons. Rather, I think a better meta would be one where the teammate can offer more role compression – for instance, it would be better if Tapu Lele could both stallbreak and lure Celesteela with Electrium Z, rather than only Stallbreak. I think role compression is very important in this meta, but I'll cover that later.
    • Branching off of that, the meta dictates that you must have a Stallbreaker and a Zard-Y answer who can't be trapped by Dugtrio (or else you'll lose to every Dugtrio team). There are very few mons who meet this criteria – the best OU has to offer are Shed Shell Tapu Lele, Shed Shell Heatran, Shed Shell Hoopa-U, Shed Shell Toxapex, and Fightinium-Z Tapu Bulu.
    • The result of this "meta rule" is that it heavily restricts teambuilding. Basically, you must have some of these mons in order to have a chance of winning Dugtrio games. If I don't bring any of these mons, I'll bend over versus Dugtrio teams (and there are a lot of them in the meta, given Dugtrio's power). Furthermore, these mons' utility outside of the SableDug/ZardDug matchup are limited at best, thanks to the fact that their item must be Shed Shell. I'm having to commit so much to stop just Dugtrio teams.
    • And yes, any mon in OU will restrict teambuilding to some extent. The difference here is that Dugtrio restricts teambuilding far more because counterplay to Arena Trap is impossible. That's why I would consider it more restricting than other mons, because the only possible countermeasures lie in the teambuilder, NOT in counterplay. (Posts above me elaborate why counterplay is impossible versus Dugtrio).
    And finally, I believe that a meta without Dugtrio will be a better one for everyone. In a Dugtrio-less meta, Tapu Lele is now free to run a Z-move if it wants, maybe an Electrium-Z or a Tapunium-Z which is far more helpful for luring purposes than a Shed Shell. I can now choose to check Zard-Y much more easily if I want to (because any non-SS Toxapex will be killed by Dugtrio). And because Dugtrio's choking influence on the meta will be lifted, the former victims of Dugtrio can now offer more role compression (such as Electrium-Z Tapu Lele doubling as both a stallbreaker and a Celesteela lure, instead of me being forced to use only Shed Shell Tapu Lele), which is extremely important in the S/M meta.

    Why is role compression extremely important?

    More role compression is far more important in S/M because the power creep is getting to concerning levels – when I build a team, I have to cope with countless threats at once. As such, multipurpose mons are critical to success in this meta, because they offer immense help in dealing with these threats (and is why Landorus-T is so excellent in S/M). Having Dugtrio in the meta restricts these multipurpose mons to using Shed Shell (or rendering them unviable altogether) and makes it harder to cope with the meta, not to mention amplifying the matchup issues already present.

    What's my point? My point is that because Dugtrio has forced such awkward teambuilding, the meta has developed in a sideways sort of fashion – instead of focusing on covering relevant meta threats, the meta has instead focused on preventing Dugtrio's stupid mind games, namely by random Shed Shells (useless in every other situation) and forcing Toxapex and Tapu Lele onto practically every team. Furthermore, because teams already have to commit so much "team budget" to stopping Dugtrio teams (I have elaborated how Dugtrio forces so much commitment), their remaining "budget" to cover other threats is limited. It's very difficult for me to handle Greninja, Heatran, and Magearna teams all at once when I also have to spend so much on stopping Dugtrio teams.

    I believe that an Arena Trap ban would undo this sideways development, and allow teams more flexibility in covering other meta threats, whether it be SG Magearna, Greninja, or just being less stressful on the teambuilder. And I think that's the direction OU should go in.
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
  3. Summerset

    Summerset

    Joined:
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    In Meh Opinion I think Arena Trap is unhealthy for the OU metagame because of how Arena trap forces an unfavorable environment in the game in which the player with the Dugtrio will always have an advantage (if the player is competent, but lets be honest Arena trap ain't hard to use).
    What do I mean by this?
    From my experience using and playing against Arena trap I always found that when either me or my opponent traps a defensive check to something it allows anyone of dugtrios multiple teammates (Zard, Volc, Scizor, Lele, etc...) to go in and literally destroy and break through your team since your defensive check got removed in a untimely manner, creating a hole that is near impossible to fix or recover from in battle. And when this happens there's literally NOTHING you can do about it (except shed shell.. i'll get into that later) since trapping is inevitable as soon as your offensive/defensive mon gets a kill. It basically limit's your offensive mons to getting one kill. I can imagine someone reading this being like "That's balance it's just counter play!" Nope, not really! When it comes to most match ups it's just going to be 2 or 3 pokemon that will be crucial win conditions in battle that will be getting the most kills. If one of your win cons get's trapped before they complete their role or knocking out a key pokemon for their teammates, it can be quite disadvantageous.
    And as I said before it's really easy to abuse Arena trap; like there's move's like Volt switch and U-turn (which mons like Scizor get that easily lures in Pex and Tran), and don't even get me started on fricking eject button which basically forces your opponent to not attack what's in front of them. And when all else fails (what i personally do and others do to) sack a mon you don't need, on the mon that you want to trap to give dugtrio a free switch in (which will always force an unfair trade for the non-Arena Trap player).
    B..ut..but..Shed Shell...
    I actually have been using shed shell a lot lately. Shed Shell with Toxapex, Lele, Heatran (it's bad), and honestly they're really suboptimal sets... Lele is better with orb or fightinum z when it comes to other match ups, Pex is probably the least affected when it comes to the item but additional recovery with black sludge is always preferred (for me at least), and Tran is actually better against stall matchups, but against every other matchup the lack of recovery is a hindrance. I even been pairing Bulu with Shed Shell Tran, to compensate for the lack of recovery but it's hard to keep the terrain up at all time. Some pokemon like Chansey can't even use shed shell, so counter play can be quite limited. We also got to be aware that knock off is a thing that pokemon like Scizor get, which is common partner for dugtrio as it lures in Pex and etc to get rid of items.

    To Sum it Up...
    It's for these reasons I previously stated I believe that Arena trap is unhealthy for the OU metagame because of limited counter play and the unfair environment it creates. So BAN ARENA TRAP!

    Now it's time to get reqs... I wish everyone who is participating in the suspect test gl!
  4. VictiniSwag

    VictiniSwag

    Joined:
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    So I gave some thoughts on Dugtrio before (although it was a god awful argument for Viability ranking, I wasn't aware until some friends enlightened me lol) but my thoughts on Dugtrio have really changed a lot, especially since the days of the first Dugtrio suspect.

    I feel that any potential Dugtrio ban could become a slipper slope for other Pokemon to abuse the meta. Utterly broken Pokemon such as Magearna, Tapu Lele, and Magnezone are largely kept in check due to the thought "Is my team too dug weak?" These Pokemon, most importantly together, pose a large threat to the meta. Many people are fearful to run these pokemon, as once these pokemon are spammed on ladder, dugtrio is even more staple, ect ect.
    Tapu Lele + Magnezone is a combination that I heavily fear if Dugtrio is to leave the format. Although you can run things like Shed Shell for Toxapex, you can't simple say "kek throw a shed shell on Celesteela." I feel Toxapex is able to get away with Shed Shell due to the mass amount of recovery it has, whereas something like Celesteela needs leftovers to be successful.
    I know there are many ways to refute this argument, but it was just something I thought more people should think about before voting ban immediately.

    I also really don't like the argument "stall is sooooo hard to beat with dugtrio in the format..." Dugtrio simply takes away the "lazy building" aspect of just throwing a Tapu Lele on your team and calling it a day against stall. There are ways to teambuild around beating stall, which are 9/10 more effective at beating stall then one lonely Tapu Lele. Magnezone + SD Knock off lando is my favorite example of a very effective core that beats stall, along with beating other things such as celesteela. Although I am aware that this can really screw with role compression, I would much prefer myself to use a core that fit on the team that beats stall than a single pokemon.
    Dugtrio itself breaks stall for goodness sake! Yes, Dugtrio is more situational and less splashable way of beating stall then just about any other stall breaker, but just by simply having a Dugtrio on your team, your stall matchup is 10x better, being able to eliminate stall's biggest trick: switching into whatever fat pokemon walls what's in front of them.
    Yes, the death of Dugtrio opens way for more stallbreakers like Hoopa-U, what I feel a lot of people do not realize is that there are already clever little building tricks that can be implemented on just about every team that are also very effective vs the rest of the meta and are arguably much better than a band-aid stall check (although trying fit a clever stall-breaking core or something of the sorts can put a massive strain on teambuilding at times).

    Now why I think Dugtrio is banworthy:

    Dugtrio has the power to force Pokemon to run inconsistent sets and items they do not want to run inorder to beat dugtrio. Shed Shell Tapu Lele, Shed Shell Toxapex, Shed Shell Heatran, and I have even seen skill swap chansey to get around dugtrio. ALL of these pokemon have better things to do then use Shed Shells. Tapu Lele wants its Z-move or Specs or Scarf, Toxapex wants its Black Sludge, Heatran wants its Z-Move or its Leftovers. All of these "consistent" sets lose Dugtrio. In addition, any Dugtrio team (specifically stall variants) can be modified to hard-wall "stallbreakers" that dugtrio can't trap. This versatility for the dugtrio player when building that makes it even more terrifying, especially when you consider that any well-built Dugtrio team extremely hard to break if perfect counter play is not made for these reasons (although you cannot counter play dugtrio, that's the point of arena trap). The offensive uses of Dugtrio (killing certain defensive threats), in my opinion, are more potent then the defensive qualities (killing certain offensive threats). Once Dugtrio kills the opponents Heatran, Charizard-Y will eat the team from the inside out. It is very difficult to play a matchup vs Charizard-Y without your Heatran (assuming you don't have any other switchins).
    The main reason I would vote ban, though, is the battling strain it puts on players. Building around beating dugtrio is no easy task, but it can be done. Playing around dugtrio, however, is a different story. Every turn is a 50-50. "Is he going to go into dugtrio now?" "Should I scout to see if he wants to go Dugtrio?" "Is he going to predict me to predict the Dugtrio?" Situations like these are unnecessary in a battling environment. One mistake, no matter what team you are using, could cost you the game when facing a dugtrio.

    Now, to sum up my argument in a nutshell: Dugtrio is, indeed, very toxic in the current meta, but I am VERY fearful of the product of the dugtrio ban. Things like Tapu Lele + Magnezone will have very little counters. I don't know what I will vote at this time, I just wanted to throw these ideas out there, as I feel a lot of these points are flying over the heads of many people on forums at the moment.
    C and E and Silver_Lucario42 like this.
  5. Eclipse

    Eclipse I've seen so much I'm going blind & I'm brain dead virtually
    is a Contributor to Smogon

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    This suspect has been a long time coming; the main reason that Dugtrio escaped the first time was that there were more pressing issues at hand creating horrific matchup issues in the metagame in Mega Metagross and Pheromosa. Dugtrio's true impact on the metagame at the time wasn't fully understood since preparation for the two aforementioned threats made many games reliant entirely on matchup which made for a REALLY unhealthy meta. It was best to get rid of the elephants in the room and let the meta settle a bit before coming back to Dugtrio to answer the question: Is Dugtrio unhealthy for the metagame?

    It's best to look at a number of different aspects regarding Dugtrio's impact on the meta and where it finds the most usage. As we all know, Dugtrio finds most of its usage on stall builds, most notably standard SPL Stall or Dual Defog Stall. Now trappers on stall are no foreign concept whatsoever as shown by last gen's usage of other non-Dugtrio trappers in Gothitelle pre- Shadow Tag ban, Tyranitar, and Band Weavile which found the most success as a trapper last gen. What makes Dugtrio this gen so much different and unhealthy in comparison to Band Weavile, for instance? For one thing, Band Weavile never forced teams into running suboptimal items or moves such as Shed Shell on Toxapex and Tapu Lele or Skill Swap on Chansey just to avoid losing to opposing Dugtrio. You really have to look at this from a matchup perspective and realize that the builder is forced into sacrificing their matchup vs. non-Dugtrio builds by giving up reliable recovery in Leftovers/Black Sludge, a USEFUL item (any boosting item, a Z-Move), or a useful moveslot that could be used for a status move or Stealth Rock on Chansey JUST for this one mon that you are not even guaranteed to run into. Given all of the cheese playstyles that exist such as Webs, Veil, Rain, etc. having to dedicate an itemslot or moveslot for such an otherwise situational item or move does not help the metagame progress in a healthy manner.

    The mons that will definitely benefit from the potential ban would be Heatran, Tyranitar, Tapu Koko, Toxapex, and Magearna. It will no longer feel like such an obligation for me to run Sub on Heatran, Tyranitar can actually pressure the fuck out of stall, Tapu Koko no longer feels obligated to run U-turn on non-Specs sets (Specs will be a more splashable set for sure), Toxapex will be even more able to check the things that it needs to check, and Magearna doesn't have a giant roadblock in front of it which prevents it from setting up with Shift Gear/Double Dance sets or acting as a reliable defensive check to threats like Greninja with its AV set.

    It's not like stall will hurt deeply by the removal of Dugtrio, either. Band Weavile is still a perfectly acceptable trapper and its effectiveness is no less effective this generation than last generation. In fact, Band Weavile is an example of how trapping can exist and NOT be unhealthy for the metagame. Take Tapu Lele, for example; as opposed to Dugtrio where Lele is simply stopped dead in its tracks after picking up a KO and eliminated while they can do nothing about it, Weavile creates a 50/50 where the Lele player can either stay in predicting the Pursuit or switch and let a partner take a Knock Off. The difference here is that there is a sense of control for both players and you do not have to play so carefully for fear that you will lose your stallbreaker to Dugtrio. Dugtrio removes the idea of playing smart from the opponent and gives them no chance to retaliate without the use of a Shed Shell, which is why I firmly believe the metagame will benefit from the removal of Arena Trap and will vote to ban Arena Trap from the metagame.
    Dreadfury, eht, wishes and 24 others like this.
  6. BeardyBennett

    BeardyBennett

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    I almost don't want to see Arena Trap banned just because Dugtrio with it is such an interesting Pokemon. It's a neat little niche. However, it's also not a niche like Magnet Pull which only traps Steel. Arena Trap is just too all-encompassing like STag. Oh it doesn't trap non-grounded mons? Why would Dugtrio go after those anyway?

    What it boils down to in my mind is that Dugtrio punishes you for making the right play. Oh my M-Camel with Rock Slide just beat the opposing Zard-Y switch-in. Oh but now it's automatically dead to Dugtrio, and my opponent still has Cele and Tang which I needed my Camel for. So even though I made the right play, a great play, I am punished for it. All my opponent has to do is not suddenly lose consciousness or misclick.

    I won't go into the team building aspect too much as many already have. I know people hate making comparisons but I think it's fair to say Dugtrio restrains building similarly to how M-Meta, Phero, and Aegis did. You have to have answers for it, you can't be too weak to it, or you just lose an enormous percentage of matchups. I mean, Toxapex basically has to have Shed Shell or it's deadweight against a ton of matchups. Lele sans Shed Shell is begging to be dropped after netting one kill.

    So even though I likely won't get req's, I would air on the side of ban.
  7. Orga777

    Orga777

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    So what you are saying is since a broken mon keeps other broken mons in check it might be better to potentially keep the clearly broken mon around. With that logic, why have a ban list at all? Just bring back Zygarde-C, Genesect, Pheromosa, Megagross and Aegislash at that point. Heck, just bring in Primal Groudon. He can handle like every broken mon in OU. The fact that Magearna is ridiculously broken and is (kind of but not really) kept in check by Dugtrio has no bearing on the argument here. If Magearna is such a problem (it is) than it will also be suspect tested (which I am surprised hasn't happened yet.) You also bring up lazy stall breaking builds. That makes no sense. Having a bunch of stall breakers makes your team ridiculously weak to every other match up. You need to build a balanced team that can handle as much of the meta game as feasibly possible. Dugtrio's presence means you can't even kill off weakened mons effectively without getting trapped and taken out in return. Dugtrio plays so many mind games that it just is not a real competitive mon.
  8. ShadowMarioGalaxy64

    ShadowMarioGalaxy64

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2012
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    Just as a note before the thread gets out of hand with specific claims, I need to clarify something I've personally held dear every Suspect Test.

    Let's assume Arena Trap gets the boot and is voted out of OU. Will there be something that becomes broken afterwards? Did Dugtrio's presence prevent said condition, be it a Pokemon or Ability, that without its ability to trap, it would become an issue afterwards? Saying that Dugtrio has to stay to check it is an absurd argument that promotes the maintenance of something uncompetitive in order to check something broken/uncompetitive. As I've stated before, broken should NOT check broken, all layers of it should be removed over time for the greater good of the OU Meta.

    I hope this prevents ridiculous claims later through.
    BPGXMG, Oberon Kagé, wishes and 15 others like this.
  9. Austin Brown

    Austin Brown

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2017
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    As someone who has been playing on showdown on and off since gen 5, I have a lot of bad memories of Duggy, especially so from this generation. There are so many good pokemon that came out of Sun/Moon, and the meta would be super fun to play in (this is the first time I've really had fun in OU since gen 4 OU), if it weren't for the mass presence of Duggy. The attack buff he received combined with Z-moves makes him a giant pain to deal with in this gen. Mons like Toxapex and Heatran have to gimp their survivability just to escape from being trapped and killed by Duggy. Don't even get me started on how busted stall is this gen, either. But, even on balance teams, Duggy can pave the way for Zard-Y, Lele, and many other sweepers by removing Pex, Tar, and Heatran from even being threats. You have to make bad plays just to make sure that Duggy won't trap and kill your wallbreaker, and you have to, in many cases, decide which pokemon is worth less to you, just to sacrifice to the obvious duggy. You can fit him in on basically any team with a reliable sweeper, and he can trap whatever said sweeper struggles with, and that's all you need. With all this in mind, Arena Trap definitely needs to be banned.
  10. Ming549

    Ming549

    Joined:
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    So I have thoroughly read through and tried to understand your point from the not ban side of this argument which I do believe is important in order to make an informed call on any issue. But I do a few questions/gripes that could use answering if you could. Firstly, you mentioned how "Arena Trap can be played around". And then u mentioned how "luring dugtrio" would be the immediate answer to that with shed shell being the backup answer. I do not understand how this is a valid argument. "Playing around" dugtrio without shed shell is literally impossible. If dugtrio is inside with a grounded mon, its in, that's it. There is literally no counterplay that can happen, and if your rebuttal is "catch it on a switch" that in itself is a highly volatile situation with extremely high risk and very little reward. By that, you can reference DeathByWobbuffet's post above

    he provides an excellent scenario in which the risk/reward of swapping in a duggy check could result in you massively losing momentum, if not the entire game, while the duggy player can make predictions or not make predictions with little to no punishment to him if he makes the wrong play. Moving on the shed shell aspect of your argument, you have left out a few very relevant shed shell cases. Toxapex is not the only mon that is known to run shed shell, offensive mons such as tapu lele and hoopa-u have also been known to carry shed, which extremely cripples these mons outside of the stall/duggy mu. Without duggy, or arena trap in general in the picture, you would not catch these mons dead running shed shell, but here they are. This in itself speak worlds to the effect duggy truly has on the meta, forcing normally offensive mons/wallbreakers to be running such a passive item such as shed. Moving on, saying that way duggy eliminates opposing band tar on stall is easily replaceable is in itself a truly uninformed statement.
    Calcs of ttar killing everything (open)

    -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 145-172 (37.9 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (ice punch could also be an option if you weren't convinced by this)
    252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 156-184 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 70.7% chance to 2HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 241-285 (61.1 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Yeah band tar stronk. Vs stall, which I think is what you were talking about when mentioning these mons as tar checks, band tar does the same thing it has done before, with one difference, the prominence of duggy. You cannot replace duggy with another mon on stall and just call it a day, it just doesn't work like that, or at least it doesnt work to the degree of effectiveness duggy provides. I noticed how you mentioned that toxapex, chansey, and clef can all beat dugtrio. This is false, please do not say this. A major reason that dugtrio is seen so often is its ability to effectively trap and kill these mons. I am not sure whether or not you factored the move screech into your calculations, because otherwise yes duggy would be stopped by these mons. But with screech in play uh.
    Calcs of Duggy (open)

    252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 290-344 (95.3 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (You said not z-move so I left that bit out)

    252 Atk Dugtrio Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. -2 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 655-772 (93.1 - 109.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
    252 Atk Dugtrio Reversal (200 BP) vs. -2 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 972-1144 (138.2 - 162.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Dugtrio Reversal (200 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 482-568 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 181-214 (25.7 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
    I put these extra calcs in to show how chansey loses to even a non z-move/screech duggy

    252 Atk Dugtrio Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 432-508 (109.6 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    For clef duggy would have to be running zmove to reliably beat it, so I will give you this one if you meant a non z-move spread

    Ok heres a big one. Magnezone. You mentioned how Magnezone has made skarm run shed shell for a majority of its existence and this is true. But the difference between magnezone and dugtrio is significant. Mag is limited to only trapping steel types and constricted by a terrible speed tier. These traits in tandem with on another severely reduces the splashability of magnezone. Splashability that duggy has. Overall I do not think comparing these two and using mag as justification for duggy is not a wise decision.

    Next, I would like to mention how PO should not affect how we as a smogon community handle things. You mentioned that this was off topic but I just want to make it so that no one gets any crazy ideas and tries to use that precedent as grounds for the no-ban/pro-ban stance. Finally I would like to mention that having offensive pressure is not the same as trapping. Your example of Hoopa-U demonstrates the use of prediction and strategy. This is something that duggy just not promote as it can simply be brought in off of either a volt-turn, eject button, or free switch gained from a sack and then the mon is stuck. Unlike Hoopa you cannot switch. Hopefully you can see that these are two inherently different scenarios.

    This concludes my thoughts, please get back to me if you could answer any of the issues that I have raised here or wish to disprove any of my arguments SJMistery. To anyone else reading this as well, feel free to offer feedback, as I mentioned I think we as a community should understand both sides of this issue thoroughly in order to make a good call, I hope this post will be helpful later on in the debate. I hope all the formatting works lel thanks for reading
  11. NVT_Sart

    NVT_Sart

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2016
    Messages:
    223
    I'm mainly playing Stall and Balance, the two playstyles Dugtrio is used in the most, yet I'll do my best to give an unbiased view on the Situation.

    Imo another Duggy/Arena Trap suspect at this Point of time is unjustified, and just "fan Service" (in lack of a better word, but you get the Point). I'm not generally opposed to a suspect itself, because while I don't share the opinion, I can understand the reasoning of the council, but the Timing is wrong. There are just way more pressing issues in the metagame than that.

    Nonetheless, the suspect test is here, so:

    In General, the issues grounded trapping causes are completely blown out of Proportion. ABR, who I usually agree with in his opinions, mentioned the amount of threats Dugtrio actually traps is a lot higher than most People think, but imo the opposite is true. Many of the Mons Dugtrio is SUPPOSED to trap, or traps in theory, can beat it anyways. Some examples would be:

    - Chansey: Not trying to call out anyone, but we've all seen the WCOP games of People losing their Dugtrio to Chansey because of set/move/Timing choice.
    - Heatran: Magma Storm and Substitute variants can only be trapped and removed if Dugtrio is brought in as a double Switch, with Eject Button, via VoltTurn or as a RK. This requires a form of "outplaying" (although admittedly on a very low Level) from the Dugtrio Player. Lava Plume variants can beat Dugtrio via burns (unreliable), or if wrong IVs were Chosen (not sure if this actually Counts as an Argument, since on the highest Level, which is the base suspect decisions are made of, People SHOULD know the correct IV values for Plume Trans. Yet many Players are completely ignorant about it, and multiple top player's Teams ignore this factor).
    - Mawile and other Sucker Punch users: Substitute is used on Z variants of Dugtrio to trap those, and while the Odds are in the Dugtrio player's favor, it IS still a 50/50. And relying on a 50/50 is not a solid gameplan. This is a similar issue in Z Lando-T variants vs Skarmory, yet no one seemed to be bothered in THAT matchup.
    - Priority users: Can only be beaten by Sash variants, and only if they run Sucker Punch themselves. A prime example for that used to be M-Meta pre-ban. You'd Need Sash and Sucker to beat it, and even then it was still a roll.

    If you take all of this into account, Dugtrio suddenly might not seem less THREATENING, but definitely a lot less RELIABLE of a threat than People make it out for. It leaves Dugtrio as what is a Revenge Killer par excellence, because he will actually "kill something in revenge" without letting it escape. And that isn't an issue making it suspect worthy.

    Yet there are still cheap and cheesy ways of bringing Dugtrio in, like the common Eject Button. This is an issue, and if I was in Charge, the COMBINATION of EButton + Dugtrio would be the Thing I'd have suspect tested. But neither am I in Charge, nor is Smogon doing complex bans like this, so let's analyze the issue:

    The most common Eject Button user is Toxapex. Toxapex though, is also one of the Mons Dugtrio aims to trap and remove with his Z set. So every Team running both is forced into an existential decision of wether to use Eject Button themselves to SUPPORT their Dugtrio, or Shed Shell to SAVE their Toxapex. The same underlying concept is true for Latios, the second most common user for this combination. Latios doesn't have the issue of being threatened directly by Dugtrio, but by giving up another item for Eject Button, you dedicate a whole teamslot for a one-time cheesy way of bringing in Dugtrio. Is that worth it over losing one of the potential best Scarfers or similar? Because unlike Things like Alomomola, which is only used in Pink's Double Defog stall, Latios is defined a lot by the choice of item. Not to mention that all of those Mons, Toxapex, Latios and Alomomola, are used to check Mons that aren't threatened by Dugtrio as well (say Char-Y for example). What are you doing in that case? You Need to bring the mon in question in, it will most likely take a hit and proc Eject Button, but Dugtrio is not an Option as a follow up. So not only did you now lose your cheese that you dedicated one and a half Team Slots on, but you also lost a "real" item on your cheese Counterpart, AND are forced to Switch out the mon that you want ON the field right now, forcing it to take a second hit or giving your Opponent Switch Advantage.

    Another common Argument is, that Dugtrio invalidates certain Mons unless they run Shed Shell, or invalidates others that aren't able to run Shed Shell for varying reasons. This is hypocritical imo, since literally every single top Tier mon, be it and offensive or defensive threat, invalidates multiple other Mons, and most of the times there isn't an "easy" way like using Shed Shell to Keep them relevant in the Tier. Just pick any B or higher ranked mon from the VR and I'm sure you yourself will find a plethora of BL/UU or lower Mons that used to be good, and that are now invalidated because of that threat. This is just how a competitive game works that is getting regular updates. Times Change, new expansions/games come out, the creator updates rulings or implements new Things, the mindsets of People Change, the metagame adapts to certain aspects, and then adapts again to those, etc. You often hear that "saving an Archetype is not an Argument to Keep a mon/ability in the Tier, because a playstyle has no Basic right of existing". The same is true for Mons. Dugtrio invalidating certain Things can't be an issue to ban it, as Long as the same applies for archetypes too. ESPECIALLY not since many of the Mons it invalidates can circumvent it by the use of Shed Shell.

    ---

    tl;dr: Dugtrio/Arena Trap is a threat like any other. Is it strong? Hell yes. It's a top Tier threat. But it's far from flawless, and even the Mons it's supposed to trap and remove, can work around that by choice of item, moveset or playstyle. Will it still invalidate certain Mons? Most definitely. Just like ANY other high Tier threat does. Dugtrio is not the issue, Dugtrio is a natural reaction TO existing issues.
  12. Fire Fist Ace

    Fire Fist Ace

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2014
    Messages:
    123
    I'll be extremely simple here. Arena Trap just has to go. If Shadow Tag and it's ban in ORAS for use on stall teams has shown us anything, it's that mass trapping is a very unhealthy aspect to the game in the form of an ability (not counting Pursuit as it is absolutely fair in all respects). Stall basically picked up Dugtrio at the end of the gen from RU to OU, but by then the generation ended, and so did the suspect tests for it. The fact of the sheer existence of trapping abilities, like Arena Trap, forces Pokemon to run absolutely terrible items for their sets, like Scarf to try and outspeed the trapper, or Shed Shell to get 1 free switch, hurts the viability of many, otherwise viable, Pokemon.

    I was gonna get the reqs on the last suspect for Dugtrio, but was too lazy to grab them, and I guess OU thought Dugtrio was not a bad choice, although I thought more for the long term health of the meta, than the few months after.

    The main reason I wanna vote ban this time around is calling back to the Dugtrio test earlier this year. People were SERIOUSLY considering running extremely crappy Pokemon like Diglett and Trapinch, just so they could trap and kill the one problematic threat. As in essence, most teams usually/probably run at least one thing to not get smashed by stall, and the stall trappers come in to kill that one extremely problematic Pokemon. That in itself is unhealthy for Pokemon matchups for what they excel at most.

    Will vote ban if I bother to get reqs again this time. Peace out Smogs
    badabing likes this.
  13. Judo

    Judo

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2015
    Messages:
    1
    Reasons to Ban Arena Trap

    1) Switching and predicting switching is an important game mechanic which requires a lot of skill. Arena Trap removes the need to predict in certain situations as it can easily take out win conditions (i.e. main threats to the teams core), particularly by baiting and revenge killing.
    2) It has led to the use of sub optimal items solely to counter it such as Shed Shell Tapu Lele.
    3) It has led to the use of sub optimal plays as players attempt to play around the trapper. For example, not fainting a Pokemon with Heatrans Magma Storm despite having switch ins for Earthquake.
    4) Psychic Terrain has led to less outs against it as priority moves can no longer be used in conjunction with Stealth Rock to deal with it as in previous generations making this ban specific to Gen 7 meta. Although most of Dugtrios main targets don't have access to priority it does mean theres less outs on most teams.

    Reasons Not to Ban Arena Trap

    1) It can help deal with stall teams and Pokemon such as Toxapex which can be over centralising themselves.
    2) It can help deal with other over used Pokemon which are themselves centralising such as Heatran and Tapu Lele.
    3) It is an ability only found on Pokemon that are very frail.
    4) It requires a lot of support or sacks such as Psychic Terrain, Volt Switch and Eject Button.
    5) It requires some degree of skill to use, though in conjunction with reasons to ban #1 this is debatable. It is clear that good players have done well with Arena Trap in top level games, but I'm sure plenty bad players have done badly with it too.

    Personally, I think Arena Trap should be banned as it is my opinion that switching is part of the spirit of the game. I think Arena Trap is over centralising as it is an automatic effect that applies to all types of Pokemon, compared to other ways to stop switching which only work on some types or require a turn to use. If Arena Trap didn't cast automatically then it would be fine but having it as an immediate effect on switch requires too much playing around to not ban.

    TLDR: Ban.
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2017
  14. SJMistery

    SJMistery

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2014
    Messages:
    155
    [quote="Ming549, post: 7497556, member: 305696"
    This concludes my thoughts, please get back to me if you could answer any of the issues that I have raised here or wish to disprove any of my arguments SJMistery. To anyone else reading this as well, feel free to offer feedback, as I mentioned I think we as a community should understand both sides of this issue thoroughly in order to make a good call, I hope this post will be helpful later on in the debate. I hope all the formatting works lel thanks for reading[/quote]

    What I mean for "playing around Dugtrio", means doing everything you can to prevent him from switching in for free. That means, don't go for Stealth Rock on Heatran, try to keep Grassy Terrain on, lure him with a Shuca Berry/Scarf holding pokemon, and spam U-turn with Tapu Koko like there's no tomorrow. In general, the enemy team will go for a specific target in your team: Magearna, Heatran, Tapu Fini, Tapu Koko, Chansey... And it's easy to narrow down which is the target depending on the enemy team. If a Gyarados is around, you can bet a Scarf Dugtrio coming straight on your Tapu Koko. Stall team=Z-EQ, and watch out Tapu Lele. Remember that any non-sash variant has literally zero chances to switch in on a decently strong neutral attack and live to tell the tale. Another option is to simply have around a deadly sweeper ready to take advantage of Dugtrio the moment he dares coming in, especially on the in my opinion awfull Scarf variants.

    Another thing to consider: Limiting the number of trappeable ground-weak pokemon to zero. After all, having a pokemon weak to Landorus', Zygarde's and Garchomp's most spammable STAB move is a bad thing anyways.

    Shed Shell is the last resort on pokemon like Toxapex and Heatran that you just cannot afford to loose in any circumstance.

    I know, Tectonic Rage ignores Grassy Terrain, and IS indeed the most dangerous and lethal Dugtrio variant, that's why I mentioned the Groundium-Z ban as an option to remove the problem of stall abusing of Dugtrio, without destroying the old-school use of Dugtrio as a stallbreaker.

    But you will say: "Baton Pass gave us problems blablabla", there is no comparison, Baton Pass was a problem due to the fact that there was little to no counterplay, and even now Haze Toxapex/Mantine is the only thing close to a response to Baton Pass. What's more, it only became a complex ban on the third revision, until then, it was simply a limit.

    should ONE single complex ban having caused problems, invalidate an idea that has proven effective other times?
    In BW, in low tiers, there was the Shell Smash+Baton Pass ban, that instantly solved the Gorebyss problems. Complex bans CAN be done right, as long as they are done with moderation and on targets that have been rendered broken or centralizing by a new move/hability. Consider it to an equivalent to the ban of Power Construct that completely broke the previously semi-unusable Zygarde until it was banned.

    In GSC, the Trapping+Sleep iniducing moves, that got repeated in Ubers after Mega Gengar used it to ignore the Sleep Clause. And then we get to the Rain ban that everyone keeps constantly arguing about, but that nobody can deny it helped a lot AND that it was the best option available back then.

    I even believe Gothitelle could have been fine in OU had we banned Trick+Shadow Tag to render her as just a mediocre, but usable, way to remove Skarmory and Quagsire. Wobbuffet wasn't even usable on the metagame except as an Encore support for Trick+CM Gothitelle, so Shadow Tag on itself wasn't the problem.


    BTW: that Judo guy made a good synopsis on the pro and anti ban arguments. But I think the anti-ban arguments are more solid, and the pro-ban arguments sound a little more like salty complains, especially considering not a single of Duggy's targets has ever had access to priority; and Heatran using Flash Cannon for fairies is awfull even without Dugtrio as it means an easy switch for things like Excadrill and Rotom-W, Magma Storm is the way to go.
    Judo please, rewrite those pro-ban complaints to be more objective. They raise good points in the question of restricting teambuilding and pressure applying, but just like my post above, they fail to get to the main question.
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2017
  15. Yoshizilla315

    Yoshizilla315

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2016
    Messages:
    345
    Hi I'm going to drop my honest thoughts here and I'll just get out of the way that I think Arena Trap should be banned because it's uncompetitive.

    Switching and predicting is one of the biggest mechanics in the game, and Arena Trap prevents that. This was the same argument for Shadow Tag, and I don't see why it can't be applied here. While Arena Trap does trap less than Shadow Tag does, it's a pain in the neck to deal with, even with Landorus-T as the top Pokemon in the tier. If played right, Arena Trap has the ability to negate Pokemon like Magearna and Toxapex, which is really stupid.

    To counter this, people began to use the item Shed Shell, which significantly weakens Pokemon that use it, like Heatran and Tapu Lele. A Pokemon should NEVER force another Pokemon to run an item just so they're able to switch out. I, and many others in this thread find that this is very stupid.

    Despite these massive negatives, there are arguments that suggest Arena Trap isn't as cancerous as we think. One argument is that the Pokemon that use it are fairly frail. 35/50/70 bulk is pretty horrible, and is found on Dugtrio. Diglett and Trapinch are also frail. This means that these Pokemon cannot switch into attacks, meaning more often than not you'd use these Pokemon as checks. However, this encourages a deal of skill to be used when using Arena Trap, as predictions are key if you choose to trap Pokemon on switch in rather than revenge kill.

    While those are great arguments, regardless of this, no matter how good you play, you're still losing a Pokemon because of this cancerous ability. All in all, trapping is bad, plz ban.

    Also, just to promote good discussion in this thread, a Pokemon's viability after a ban isn't really important, as right now we're just trying to move the threat that's right in front of us. If there seems to be an issue because of the lack of Arena Trap, then we will deal with that issue accordingly. For right now, let's focus on Arena Trap and it's abusers.
    Muscle K and badabing like this.
  16. BeardyBennett

    BeardyBennett

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    110
    Did you really just suggest having zero grounded mons as a justification to keep Arena Trap? You do realize that's the definition of constraining teambuilding and overcentralizing the Meta game? Not only that, the other Ground mons you mentioned are not comparable to Dugtrio. They can all be switched around and played around, and are all perfectly manageable. Dugtrio literally cannot be switched around on barring Shed Shell or your opponent being bad and bringing it in on something it doesn't trap.

    And speaking of these arguments people make of predicting Dug switching in. What game are you guys playing? I've never seen a good player bring in Dugtrio on anything but an advantageous VoltTurn, EB, or revenge kill. Otherwise you lose its Sash which potentially compromises it later on with hazards, priority, etc. And if there's no Sash, it likely is straight-up gone. Maybe I'm missing something, but the goal of Dugtrio is to come in for free and guarantee a kill on something that is either blocking one's win-con or is a win-con. I really don't think the bizarre claim of "predicting a Dugtrio switch" is very viable.
  17. Ming549

    Ming549

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2016
    Messages:
    95
    yeah I thought this might come up, basically what you have elaborated on is one of the core arguments of banning duggy, the forcing of unoptimal plays on the part of the person playing vs duggy. The reason and justification that many people would like duggy banned is because he is able to force unoptimal plays. For example lets say you have your koko in on a mantine, do you click the elec move? Under normal circumstances yes but in the case of duggy in the back, your paranoid of it switching in and so go for u-turn, well if mantine stays in then you've kind of been cheated out of a kill, but if you do go for elec move and they bring duggy in and it is hypothetically scarfed, then ur koko is dead. While this is a 50/50, what bothers me about this type of play is that there is no recovering, you cannot switch into an appropriate check/counter/sack/anything. Your mon is just dead. This point and concept has been elaborated upon multiple times by the pro-ban group.
    But the thing with duggy is that its not even ground weak mons that it can successfully trap. It has a whole plethora of threats that it has no trouble trapping/killing/toxicing/mementoing/etc. we've already mentioned things like chansey, clef, pex, ground weak mons, but the range is much larger. Mega Medi, Mega Gallade, Garchomp(If non-scarf with a bit of prior damage), Gengar(If non-scarf and duggy has pursuit), manaphy(again a bit of prior damage), etc. Duggy's trapping capabilities are very diverse and can be used in many matchups. Also building a team that has no ground weak mons is a perfect example of just how much of a grip duggy has on the meta. Pokemon have weaknesses for a reason. Building a team while consciously excluding all weaknesses to a certain type should be sending a red flag that something is wrong with meta.
    Again just another reason showing how pivotal duggy is in the meta. Displaying how one mon in the meta can have such a grip on the item choices of several other mons, not a good idea.
    I dont think anybody mentioned BP at all from what I've read. This is an unrelated topic.
    I think so far all the points that I mentioned here have been thoroughly elaborated upon already and specific examples have been given for almost each one. At this point it feels like we are going in circles already. Almost if not every single one of these points has already been brought up and elaborated upon.
  18. ZardX

    ZardX

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2017
    Messages:
    33
    Arena Trap is getting new counters in Shed Shell and starting to become uncompetitive because of that but, I'm still not really sure if I should say if it should be banned or not. But yet again, there's Shadow Tag, an ability banned by Gothitelle's own abilities with it due to Trick and uncompetitive ness, Wobbuffet can counter and trap threats, also Mega Gengar but that was banned from its power in OU rather than the ability which helped it a lot.
    Reviloja753 likes this.
  19. UltraBallz

    UltraBallz

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    Messages:
    135
    I am definitely of the opinion that Arena Trap is broken and needs to leave this tier and I just want to comment on a couple of your arguments to make my point. You mention ways to "play around dugtrio" but this shows exactly how much advantage simply having arena trap on a team can give a player. Stuff like never being able to safely click stealth rock with heatran puts a player at such a disadvantage from team preview and if anything is an argument for why this needs to go not why it can stay and be played around. You also mention always clicking u-turn with koko to avoid being trapped by scarf dug. This actually reminds me of one of my favorite replays to show exactly how unhealthy dugtrio is in practice even when it isn't trapping something.

    https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-607800259

    This is a world cup game between Malekith and TDK. Look at the match up that TDK's Tapu Koko has yet it does absolutely nothing the entire battle because if it ever clicks electric move it just dies to dug. Even though the Dugtrio never actually traps the Koko it just being there gave Malekith such a huge advantage and invalidated the biggest threat TDK has to his team. I think this game shows just how influential and problematic Duggy and Arena Trap is for the tier and would love to see it gone.
  20. Immortal

    Immortal

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2012
    Messages:
    166
    While Dugtrio with arena trap has a massive effect on the game, I have to say I am leaning toward no ban. I really don't get this suspect because the only mons that really have trouble with Dugtrio are ridiculously good mons that are in the A-S ranks despite the existence of arena trap. Dugtrio is a very mediocre mon who can often be dead weight except against some of the top pokemon in the tier. Dugtrio sucks, like it is truly shit and since it is the only user of arena trap who is at all viable it is really the only one I will focus on (if someone wants to waste a team spot on diglett just to get rid of your Heatran then they deserve to get rid of it). Dugtrio still has pretty low attack stat despite the buff, it has no defense whatsoever and a speed tier that is strong but really isn't as good as it used to be in previous gens. Also, Dugtrio doesn't typically do its job and escape unscathed so while it is effective, I'm not sure it is broken. Finally, I hate the argument that arena trap is bad because it creates 50-50s. This is literally a game of 50-50s and oddly enough, the ability to switch is what creates most of these.

    I want to talk about the positive effect Dugtrio has on the game for a minute. Personally I love that Dugtrio makes some of the top mons run sub-optimal items. It creates a cost benefit analysis that I think presents an ideal challenge for teambuilding. You can maximize the potential of mons by using ideal items or move or play it a little safer. Zard Y, one of Duggy's main buddies actually just dropped in the viability rankings. This drop was justified with just 3 words "Shed Shell Pex". Heatran can of course use shed shell as well. Tapu Koko is an outstanding mon who outspeeds Dugtrio and can simply U turn out of it. But people are mad because this fills a spot in the movepool of a completely dominant Pokemon with one move that is suboptimal against everything else. It isn't that these mons don't all have a perfectly viable answer to Dugtrio, it is that they are inconvenienced by having to use it. Chansey doesn't have a great answer but that is because Chansey being good is kind of a fluke due to its dependence on an obscure item that only it can really abuse effectively. However, if you want a special wall with a massive HP stat that you do not want to be trapped, you can always use shedshell Blissey. Personally, I love the diversity arena trap's presence in the tier adds. Dugtrio forces players to do some cost benefit analysis when using top tier mons instead of just making it so there is one optimal set for every situation. These pokemon such as Pex, Heatran and Chansey who would love to see less of Zard y and Duggy can form nearly unbreakable teams with each other along with Mega Sab, Lando t and Tangrowth if arena trap is removed. Other top tier mons such as Tapu Koko, Lele and Magearna would also like to see arena trap gone as well. The funny thing about this suspect is that everything who is bothered by Dugtrio is already a dominant top tier mon. Now this would be a case for banning arena trap if Dugtrio was actually dominant, but since it is actually a somewhat crappy mon that just does great against a lot of top mons, this suspect feels like it is just trying to pull out all the final roadblock for the top threats. All pokemon have upsides and downsides that go along with their typing. Right now, a lot of top pokemon happen to struggle with Dugtrio, poor flying types finally have an inherent advantage due to their typing which is generally a drawback for them (SR). So it is only fair that some of the top mons have a downside too. It still hasn't stopped them from being the best mons in the tier and if you don't like it, feel free to use something else.

    In my opinion, getting rid of Dugtrio is just going to get rid of the main drawbacks for the mons who already run the tier and will eliminate alot of the diversity from the game until we finally get through the long and painstaking process of banning all the stuff that will become broken without it. Now that may or may not be worth it in the long run but the game won't be very fun for a while. Now I know a bunch of people were rubbing their hands together in anticipation of being able to say "broken checking broken isn't a reason to keep something in the tier" while reading this post, but is this really the case here? Dugtrio kinda sucks except against some of the top threats. So is this a case of broken checking broken or is it a case of a mediocre mon with a good ability checking potentially broken mons? Dugtrio has a huge impact but is it really broken? In my opinion, the answer is no and I really can't get behind the idea of banning something just because it has a large effect on the game and makes it more diverse.
  21. robopoke

    robopoke

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2015
    Messages:
    153
    Just some food for thought:
    Show Hide
    For Smogon as a fanbased but still a serious community that tries to avoid complex bans and uses logical reasoning, I think everyone who says switching is part of the game and not being able to switch is uncompetetive, controversial or whatever has to either
    1) not only be for an Arena Trap ban, but also for a Magnet Pull ban
    2) or simply not use "switching is part of the game" as an argument for an Arena Trap ban while considering Magnet Pull fine.


    If we look at this suspecttest one might ask him/herself: "When does a mon trap too many mons?".
    Clearly, Banded Pursuit from Tyranitar/Weavile or Magnet Pull Magnezone also trap mons but in the case of Pursuit it is a 50/50 and in Magnezones case you only trap Steeltypes. But still, even with Arena Trap gone they are other elements of trapping in this game that is not considered suspectworthy because the amount of mons they trap is far far lower than what Dugtrio traps.


    There are 77 mons in S to B- exluding Dugtio from which you can reliably trap 21 mons in a 1vs1 situation. Against some of them (Mega Mawile, Bisharp) you have to win the Substitute game but this is in favour of the Dugtriouser. This is a trappingrate of ~27%. In addition to the trappingrate, the mons trapped by Dugtrio have very high usage. Another useful parameter is the sum of all percenagevalues of trappable mons by Dugtrio scaled by their usage. If you do not like this, just remember the 27%.

    Magnezones AV Set (most used Set) with the same critera has a trappingrate of ~8%, it is still a mon with a trapping ability.

    The first post of this thread from Finch had this sentence:
    "Switching is one of the most fundamental components of competitive Pokemon, so it is only to be expected that an ability which removes the ability to switch from so many individual pokemon is seen as controversial"

    Controversial is a wisely chosen word but I want to ask everyone:
    Dont we need an updated OU Policy we can use as a resource for the "controversial" topic which is preventing switching or is this unnecessary because you all are happy to deal with this by using vague statements like "it traps too much" or "compared to [insert old metagame] it now traps more" and use that vague statement as a reason to ban Arena Trap but not Magnet Pull while being under the umbrella of SMOGON?

    Do not misunderstand me, I am pro Ban but if a new player asks me in two weeks after Dugtrio is potentially banned "Why is Arena Trap, a switchingpreventing ability banned but Magnet Pull not?" I would hate to answer that Arena Trap traps much more mons than Magnezone which means Magnet Pull is healthy enough even though it still traps certan mons. I would love to answer "The OU Policy states, that if a mon with a trapping ability traps a considerable amount of currently viable mons, the ability or the mon deserve a suspecttest" while mentioning, that Magnezone only had a trappingrate of 8% and Dugtrio had a trappingrate of 27% and that the Council considered 27% as "considerable amount". The endanswer is the same, but the first one is vague and irrational because in the end both are trappingabilities, but the second one uses "considerable amount" as a interpretable variable that deems one ability unhealthy, the other one not.
    J0RIS, eht, SANJAY and 21 others like this.
  22. Vegalius

    Vegalius

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2016
    Messages:
    62
    If you can not take a few moments to understand the following precautions, then do not bother to continue reading the remainder of my post. I will not be responding to any posts with a negative responses / intents to harass / etc.

    THE PRECAUTIONS (open)


    What this post IS:
    Corrections made towards previous post created by user robopoke.

    What this post IS NOT:
    An attack/witch-hunt/etc on robopoke or Smogon.


    Hey robopoke, I would like to provide you with some corrections in regards to your post, along with my own thoughts on the subject.

    First of off, why did you claim that there only 77 Pokemon the Viablilty Rankings, when there are 119? With that statement one could clearly see that you excluded the Ranks of C+, C, and C-.

    Now, I feel like you are forgetting a few things and haven't fully done your research on the subject of "Reliably Trapping." Not every single Pokemon has just a single set in whoch is viable in the OU tier.

    To make this easier to back me up, I went through the Set Viability Ranking thread and took not of every Pokemon Arena Trap Dugtrio could reliably trap. Even if some of them require substitute or 50/50's, Dugtrio can still reliably trap these Pokemon:

    Show Hide

    Magearna:
    Shift Gear: S
    Assault Vest: S
    Offensive Trick Room: A+

    Heatran:
    SubToxic: A+
    Defensive: A+
    Offensive: A
    Choice Scarf: A-

    Toxapex:
    Thapex: A+

    Volcarona:
    Offensive Quiver Dance: A+

    Clefable
    Magic Guard Utility: A
    Unaware: A-

    Keldeo
    Choice Specs: A

    Mawile-Mega
    Offensive: A
    Swords Dance: A

    Tapu Koko:
    Z Wild Charge: A
    Utility: A
    Choice Specs: A-
    Offensive: A-
    Choice Scarf: B+

    Tapu Lele
    Choice Scarf: A
    Choice Specs: A
    Offensive: A

    Chansey:
    Defensive: A-

    Medicham-Mega
    All-Out Attacker: A-

    Tyranitar:
    Choice Band: A-

    Tyranitar-Mega:
    Dragon Dance: A-

    Alakazam-Mega:
    Offensive: B+

    Bisharp:
    Swords Dance: B+

    Kartana:
    Swords Dance: B+
    Choice Scarf: B+

    Kingdra:
    Choice Specs: B+

    Kyurem-Black
    Subzero Slammer: B+
    Life Orb: B+
    Choice Scarf: B-
    Choice Band: B-

    Magnezone:
    Assault Vest: B+

    Weavile:
    Offensive: B+

    Excadrill:
    Focus Sash: B
    Choice Scarf: C+

    Gallade-mega
    Swords Dance: B

    Hoopa-Unbound:
    Choice Band: B
    Choice Specs: B-
    Choice Scarf: B-
    Other Offensive Sets (i.e. Trick Room / Focus Sash): C+

    Jirachi:
    Stealth Rock Pivot: B

    Mamoswine:
    Offensive: B
    Focus Sash: B-

    Manectric-Mega:
    Offensive: B

    Terrakion:
    Choice Scarf: B
    Swords Dance: B


    Considering that there are 50 Viable Sets from 78 Pokemon ranging from Rank S down to Rank B-, This is the percentage of Pokemon (Set Wise) that Dugtrio and Reliably trap 1v1: 40.32%



    Another thing, I've seen people go to the extreme by using not as common moves and natures on Dugtrio (Adamant / Sucker Punch), as people tend to build Dugtrio based on what their team falls to.


    I will edit this post later, as at the current time of writing this post I have some IRL business to take care of. Keep a lookout for the remainder of my post.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 4, 2017
  23. KztxL7

    KztxL7

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2006
    Messages:
    179

    One of your main points makes absolutely no sense. You're calling it a mediocre pokemon and dead weight except against some of the top pokemon of the tier. That's damn near a contradictory statement.

    For something to be effective against a significant amount of the most common and most effective pokemon of the tier is literally the opposite of mediocre and dead weight. That makes it incredibly valuable. That's not even getting into the reality according to the viability tier list Dugtrio is a A+ worthy pokemon and no one is disputing it or asking for a drop.

    What you call a positive effect is the complete opposite. You even said it yourself: People are running sub-optimal items. And they're doing it simply because they're terrified of a single Pokemon destroying their teams. That's overcentralization. The exact opposite of what people want in a healthy metagame. You're forcing people to play worse just to not auto-lose.

    And lastly: 50/50s are bad when one side, particularly the one forcing it, is rewarded so heavily for it while the opposing side is trapped in what basically amounts to a lose/lose scenario.
  24. Ming549

    Ming549

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2016
    Messages:
    95
    He mentioned only including up to the B- rank. I believe he did this in order to keep mons that could be viewed as "outside the meta" or "irrelevant" from clouding the main point of his post. Now I'm not saying that any of those mons below B- should just be forgotten about, but I think he was just trying to keep things concise. I also think he may have purposely left out some sets/mon that duggy could trap in order to lessen ambiguity/set reliance. Like a scarf excadrill vs. groundium duggy, that would be a case where duggy could not reliably trap. That type of thing
  25. Silver_Lucario42

    Silver_Lucario42

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Messages:
    842
    i don't even know what some of these posts are but here's my attempt at showing why dugtrio is not uncompetitive

    first up let's look at the definition:
    so basically uncompetitive elements make the players' choices have less of an impact on the game. let's look at some games where dugtrio is featured to see how much the plays influence the game

    [wcop] ricardo vs. bushtush
    match highlights (open)

    [team preview]
    R!cardo's team:Clefable / Chansey / Dugtrio / Skarmory / Sableye / Toxapex
    Bushtush's team:Tyranitar / Heatran / Mew / Landorus-Therian / Tangrowth / Greninja

    ricardo is using spl stall. bushtush has three mons that are relevant against it from team preview: mega ttar, sub heatran, and sd rockium landorus t.

    the first few turns progress normally enough. mew opts to burn mega sableye using synchronize. after this, bushtush is able to bring his heatran in on skarmory through a skillful double switch using his landorus t.

    [turn 4]
    Skarmory, come back!

    Go! Chansey!

    The opposing Heatran used Magma Storm!
    Chansey lost 14.1% of its health!
    Chansey became trapped by swirling magma!

    Chansey is hurt by Magma Storm!

    bushtush chooses to risk losing his heatran to eject button + dugtrio; however, this was risk/reward, not a 50/50. he knew that ricardo would be wary of heatran setting up a substitute on the potential eject button user, so magma storm was the best play.

    chansey is steadily worn down by toxic + magma storm chip damage. when it is released from magma storm, it has around 30% of its health left. at one point heatran tries to set up a substitute, but chansey breaks it with seismic toss

    [turn 10]
    (Chansey's Natural Cure activated!)

    Chansey, come back!

    Go! Toxapex!

    The opposing Heatran used Magma Storm!
    Toxapex avoided the attack!
    Turn 11

    The opposing Heatran used Magma Storm!
    It's not very effective... Toxapex lost 16.5% of its health!
    Toxapex became trapped by swirling magma!
    Toxapex is switched out with the Eject Button!

    Toxapex, come back!

    Go! Dugtrio!
    Turn 12

    Dugtrio used Earthquake!
    It's super effective! The opposing Heatran lost 100% of its health!

    The opposing Heatran fainted!

    bushtush makes a play that i don't agree with at all by using magma storm again. i don't agree with it because it has no clear benefit-- chansey and toxapex are the only two mons (besides dug ofc) that can break heatran's substitute in one hit. if chansey stays in, it dies to toxic either way; if toxapex has shed shell then ricardo can just hard switch back to chansey on the probable earth power. magma storm was a bad play in my opinion even without factoring in eject button

    if bushtush had clicked substitute here, he had a better position but possibly allowed chansey to recover. at this point he has to take advantage of chansey's low hp

    he does this in the following turns by trying to pressure ricardo with his battle bond greninja. additionally, he utilizes sd rockium z landorus to weaken skarmory severely and set up stealth rock (however, he loses lando to counter). after threatening ricardo with greninja, bushtush doubles to his tyranitar on the clefable switchin.

    [turn 22]
    Clefable, come back!

    Go! Skarmory!
    Pointed stones dug into Skarmory!

    The opposing Tyranitar's Tyranitarite is reacting to the Key Stone!
    The opposing Tyranitar has Mega Evolved into Mega Tyranitar!

    The opposing Tyranitar used Stone Edge!
    A critical hit! Skarmory lost 6.6% of its health!

    Skarmory fainted!
    The sandstorm is raging.

    Go! Dugtrio!
    Pointed stones dug into Dugtrio!
    Turn 23

    Dugtrio surrounded itself with its Z-Power!

    Dugtrio unleashes its full-force Z-Move!
    Dugtrio used Tectonic Rage!
    It's super effective! The opposing Tyranitar lost 100% of its health!

    The opposing Tyranitar fainted!

    tyranitar needed two dragon dances to outspeed dugtrio. with the switch to skarmory, it had the potential chance to set them up (unless skarmory had whirlwind). bushtush could have played around dugtrio here, but he instead hoped that ricardo didn't see the value in his clefable (as a switchin for gren's dark pulse). this was closer to a genuine 50/50 in that if clefable was dead or ttar was at +2, bushtush pretty much won. the difference was that he also had a chance if he mispredicted and dragon danced on clef, because ttar could live a moonblast or two.

    in the end bushtush was able to activate battle bond but he ultimately couldn't break through ricardo's team because both resists (pex and clef) were still alive.

    i don't see how dugtrio was "uncompetitive" in this match at all. in practice, it performed extremely differently from the skill free trapping monster people seem to be making it out as. it was never able to get a kill without a correct prediction

    [wcop] ict vs. tdk
    match highlights (open)

    [team preview]
    ict's team:Charizard / Mew / Dugtrio / Toxapex / Tangrowth / Celesteela
    pride & arrogance's team:Chansey / Dugtrio / Quagsire / Skarmory / Sableye / Tangrowth

    both players are using dugtrio here, actually. tdk has a slightly different version of the dugtrio stall we saw in the last replay, while ict is using a zard y + dug build that saw lots of usage before the popularization of shed shell toxapex.

    [turn 5]
    TDKew, come back!

    Go! TDKoxapex (Toxapex)!

    The opposing undercurrents used Scald!
    It's not very effective... TDKoxapex lost 3.9% of its health!
    TDKoxapex was burned!
    TDKoxapex is switched out with the Eject Button!

    TDKoxapex, come back!

    Go! TDKangrowth (Tangrowth)!

    The sunlight faded.

    ok here i want to talk about eject button.

    some people have been bringing up eject button as a way to get dugtrio in without the need for prediction at all. the thing is that eject button is really hard to use correctly because it's such a passive item, and it essentially places a "lock" on the mon with it, meaning that you can't use that mon to switch in on anything until the thing that you want to trap comes in, otherwise it's gone. in this game we see ict mispredicting and losing his eject button.

    [turn 22]
    pride & arrogance withdrew malediction (Sableye-Mega)!

    pride & arrogance sent out dead empire (Dugtrio)!

    TDKoxapex used Scald!
    It's super effective! The opposing dead empire lost 70.2% of its health!
    The opposing dead empire was burned!

    The opposing dead empire was hurt by its burn!
    TDKoxapex was hurt by its burn!

    here we see tdk attempting to remove toxapex with his own dugtrio, but getting burned by scald. although the burn didn't matter that much seeing as toxapex didn't pose much of a threat to tdk's team, it shows a prime example of dugtrio's inconsistency.

    [turn 35]
    TDKoxapex, come back!

    Go! DugTDKrio (Dugtrio)!
    Pointed stones dug into DugTDKrio!

    The opposing serenity used Soft-Boiled!
    The opposing serenity restored its HP.

    The opposing serenity was hurt by its burn!

    ict's dugtrio is able to trap tdk's chansey and eliminate it for zard y. in the current meta, however, this strategy would be much less effective due to the threat of skill swap chansey, which has seen use recently.

    zard y wins after this not much to say

    this isn't an example of dugtrio being broken or uncompetitive, it's an example of a stall team not prepared for it. stall needs to run skill swap chansey if it wants to prepare for zard y dug, just like it needs its own trapper if it wants to prepare for mons like hoopa u and specs lele. you could say that "forcing people to run shed shell/skill swap chansey is unhealthy" but how about stall teams being forced to run dugtrio to not get 6-0d by mega mawile? that seems pretty unhealthy to me

    personally i'm not sure whether i'll be voting ban or no ban but i think the no ban side deserves better representation than "it's needed to beat top tier threats". thanks
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