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Metagame np: SM PU Stage 0 (Beta): Medieval [Vanilluxe and Tauros Banned]

Discussion in 'PU' started by galbia, Aug 6, 2017.

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  1. Broken Phobias

    Broken Phobias

    Joined:
    May 25, 2015
    Messages:
    466

    [​IMG]

    Hey guys Broken Phobias Here! So I've been playing on ladder and writing down notes in a google doc about what I think about the current PU Beta state. Look guys I get that its still Beta and that we're going to have to wait for more bans but like the meta is so not healthy. I'll just synthesize the notes below from the Google Doc on what should be banned in my opinion. These are just the Pokemon that I have been having trouble with personally. There is a good handful potent threats and I believe this should be addressed I will start with Most borked and go to Least Borked so please Enjoy!

    [​IMG]
    As most of you may already know Gallade in the PU Beta tier is probably one of the scariest things out there currently. I often find myself wondering if I should switch and let it get the Swords Dance up or stay in and hopefully get some chip damage. This however is often a fruitless task because almost always does the opposite of what I wanted to do. I have had to rely Choice Scarf Scyther to revenge kill Gallade 70% of the time, 25% percent it wins the game, and the last 5% is the player making terrible decisions and letting this thing die. When Gallade is at +2 it becomes one hell of a KO'ing machine adding to the already incredible amount of offensive pressure it puts on the opponents team. Another thing to note is that Gallade is capable of OHKO'ing the likes of Regirock and 2HKO'ing the ORAS GOAT Defensive Tangela at +2. The only thing that kind of checks it is Twinkle Tackle Musharna which Musharna in and of itself is another mon that needs to go. If that doesn't say this thing is unhealthy then I'm not really sure what does.

    Checks & Counters
    • Musharna
    • Choice Scarf Scyther
    • Sableye
    • Max Defense invested Rotom-Fan
    • Gourgiest-Super


    [​IMG]

    Musharna got worse with ban on Baton Pass but that does not stop it from putting in massive amounts of work against Opposing teams. Its terrific bulk in conjunction with its access to Calm Mind and Moonlight make it very good. Another thing to add is that it can successfully make quick work of ALL of its Dark-type checks thanks to its Z-move Twinkle Tackle. Not to mention Musharna can run several sets such as the Stored Power goddess and it function as an all around decent Bulky Pivot even without Baton Pass. It is almost impossible to tell which set Musharna is even running in the first place because of its versatility on Balance and Bulky Offense. It is recommend to be running to at least one Dark-type check and one Steel-type check in my opinion just to keep this Pokemon at bay which is very restricting when building Musharna is very unhealthy and should be dealt with accordingly.

    Checks & Counters
    • Bronzor
    • Metang
    • Ferroseed
    • Skuntank
    • Vullaby



    [​IMG]

    Personally I remember in very late ORAS when everyone was theorymoning and we brought up Gurdurr and everyone was like "There is no way that pokemon is coming here and staying," well guess what its here. This clown is actually one of the scariest Pokemon in the Tier in my opinion. Gurdurr hits like a truck and is able take almost any physical hit you throw at it. It has a great base attack stat of 105 and has Guts, and extremely sought after ability in Generation 7. Gurdurr is one of my least favorite Pokemon to deal with in my opinion because of its above average defenses thanks to Eviolite and its access to Bulk Up, this furthers its offensive presence even more. This Pokemon is able to provide nasty chip damage on whatever comes in and lets be honest with ourselves nothing really wants to take a Guts boosted Knock Off. Gurdurr becomes a lot scarier with its access to Mach Punch which allow to pick up KO's after the target has already been worn down. For all these reasons this is why I think Gurdurr should should leave this tier.

    Checks & Counters

    • Max Defense invested Rotom-Fan
    • Vivillion
    • Sableye
    • Weezing
    • Granbull
    [​IMG]

    Alola Exeggutor is on a whole new level of what it means to be a Nuke in PU. Thanks to its base Special Attack stat of 125 and mediocre defenses it hits extremely hard breaking through opposing walls, not to mention Devastating Drake OHKO's 90% of the tier. It is able to successfully nuke any non Fairy, or Steel-type the tier, even then due to its fantastic movepool Steel-types still have to be able to stomach a Flamethrower and Fairy-type might have to take a Sludge Bomb. Because of its access to Synthesis, Alola Exeggutor is able to further improve its longevity throughout the match making it an even bigger pain deal with. One thing I haven't talked about yet is it being the best Trick Room user and abuser in the tier in my opinion thanks to it being able to use it independently without needing to be supported by other Pokemon. Alola Exeggutor should be banned due to its offensive versatility, its stand alone Trick Room capabilities, and its incredibly powerful STAB attacks.

    Checks & Counters
    • AV Ice Punch Hitmonchan
    • Abomasnow
    • Musharna
    • Clefairy
    • Roselia
    • Granbull
    • Muk

    Honorable Mentions (Pokemon that are good but actaully aren't broken lol)
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  2. FallenSword912

    FallenSword912

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2014
    Messages:
    31
    I'm really excited for PU this gen! we got a ton of cool new Pokemon, including fully evolved fighting types (goodbye Machoke and Monferno). Also, we got back a lot of Pokes that were banned last gen, this guy being one of them.

    [​IMG]



    Scyther @ Eviolite
    Ability: Technician
    EVs: 248 Atk / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Aerial Ace
    - U-turn
    - Knock Off

    I used SD Eviolite Scyther before he got banned and found a lot of success in doing it. However, I put Knock Off over Roost because I found few times when I could use Roost, thanks to the amount of offensive Pokemon in the tier right now.

    I agree with the above poster that at least for the time being, and possibly even when the meta becomes stable, is that Scyther is not broken. One Pokemon that immediately comes to mind is Lycanroc, who not only has a better speed tier than Scyther, but also has Accelrock, a priority rock move, which 2HKOs even Eviolite Scyther (252 Atk Lycanroc Accelerock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Scyther: 196-232 (57.1 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Strong priority users such as Skuntank and Absol also give it trouble if it doesn't have Quick Attack, and Scyther has a pretty big 4MSS problem so it often can't afford to run Quick Attack.
  3. drumstick

    drumstick

    Joined:
    May 3, 2017
    Messages:
    5
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Hello all. With Alpha ending and us getting a few new toys to play with, I decided to build a bulky offense team centered around one of newest members of PU: Vivillon, and I've had some decent success with it when I wasn't getting haxxed out. Vivillon, while a pretty great Pokemon in the tier, has its fair share of flaws that hold it down, such as its crippling 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, its pretty bad defenses before it gets a chance to use Quiver Dance, and some Pokemon just flat-out halting it from sweeping like Magmortar, Klinklang and various Electric-types. With the help of its partners, though, this beast will be able to at the very least bag a few kills. Once again, shouts out to PenguinAssault for helping me write this.

    Torterra serves as the hazard setter for the team, while also providing a useful Electric-immunity. It's pretty good at eating non-super effective physical hits from Pokemon like Klinklang, Gallade (if the two haven't set up) and Tauros, while subsequently beating them, as well as Skuntank, Probopass, Lanturn, Quagsire, Regirock, Absol to some extent, and others. It also serves as the Ground-resist. With rocks up, it allows our Vivillon to be able to secure important KO's on mons that are crippled by the hazards, as well as allowing Vivillon to switch in on potential rapid spins and defogs. Tauros serves as the physical wallbreaker, being able to weaken, and even break through in some cases, many defensive Pokemon like Granbull, Lanturn, Ferroseed, Probopass and more, as well as various offensive Pokemon like Hariyama, Skuntank, Klinklang and more. On top of this, Tauros has a very nice niche for a normal mon in the tier as being at a very appreciative 110. Skuntank serves as the hazard control for the team, making sure that rocks are away, meaning that Vivillon has a greater chance to come through later on in the match, as well as being able to snipe some physical walls and even hazard setters with the special set. Magmortar serves as the bulky special wallbreaker, with coverage that's enough to stop almost every hazard setter once they've been weakened enough, as well as the Fire-type check for the team. Klinklang sets up and breaks down many special walls alongside Tauros after a Shift Gear. While not terrifically bulky, it also serves as the second Lilligant switch-in, as well as a Normal-type check to some extent. Finally, we have Vivillon. With its checks and counters either weakened or flat-out removed, Vivillon can do some pretty major work. It can put things to sleep with Sleep Powder and proceed to set-up on them with Quiver Dance, with Supersonic Skystrike acting as a nuke of some sorts, as even many specially bulky Pokemon don't appreciate taking it after a boost or two.

    (Edit: This team took me to #14 on the ladder, so there's some more extra reason to use aside from it having busted mon #666 on it, so go ahead and steal it or smth,)

    Things to Note (open)


    . The EVs on Klinklang are up to you. If you want to take some out of Speed for HP, go for it.
    . Tauros can also run a Scarf set if you wish to have some sort of speed control.
    . If you want, Klinklang can be the team's Z Move user, although I've had more success with Flyinium Z Vivillon.



    The Squad (open)


    Vivillon @ Flyinium Z
    Ability: Compound Eyes
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Quiver Dance
    - Sleep Powder
    - Hurricane
    - Energy Ball

    Tauros @ Life Orb/Choice Scarf
    Ability: Sheer Force
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe or 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Def
    Naive/Jolly Nature
    - Rock Climb/Body Slam
    - Fire Blast/Zen Headbutt
    - Earthquake
    - Iron Tail/Rock Slide

    Torterra @ Leftovers
    Ability: Overgrow
    EVs: 252 HP / 60 Atk / 196 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - Wood Hammer
    - Earthquake
    - Stealth Rock
    - Synthesis

    Magmortar @ Assault Vest
    Ability: Vital Spirit
    EVs: 64 HP / 252 SpA / 192 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Fire Blast
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Earthquake

    Klinklang @ Leftovers
    Ability: Clear Body
    Happiness: 0
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Shift Gear
    - Gear Grind
    - Frustration
    - Substitute

    Skuntank @ Black Sludge
    Ability: Aftermath
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Dark Pulse
    - Fire Blast
    - Defog


    Counters Checks and Other Things That Threaten This Team (open)


    [​IMG]
    Vivillon dismantles this team after a boost, so it's probably best to keep rocks up at all times. Even the team's designated special wall doesn't like taking a SSSS after rocks damage, so keep that in mind before you switch it in. Tauros can deal with it if it's the Scarf set even after one boost. However, if it's the Sash set and not the Z Move set, make sure Magmortar doesn't take too much damage.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    The team is very weak to rain, as there isn't a Water-type resist on it. Even if you manage to set up with Vivillon, Kabutops' Aqua Jet kills it after rocks damage if the rain is still up. Again, Tauros can beat a few rain abusers even under rain, but Aqua Jet is a 3HKO with or without rocks up if you go Sheer Force, so keep that in mind.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    While the team does have all the necessary requirements to beat stall down, well-played stall can serve as quite the annoyance for the team. (Example: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pubeta-616100472)
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
    Aaronboyer, 2xTheTap, TJ and 5 others like this.
  4. Aaronboyer

    Aaronboyer formerly Boyeraj17

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2014
    Messages:
    177
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Drifblim Offense

    Teambuilding Process (open)
    So I wanted to use an underrated and unappreciated Pokemon that did fairly well in ORAS and bring it back into the SM limelight. While the poll was close between this and Stunfisk, Drifblim ultimately won out and was the first Pokemon chosen for our team. We went with a Physical set because otherwise CM Drifblim would have a hard time differentiating itself from Oricorio-Sensu. Next we chose Primeape for Speed Control and the ability to create a VoltTurn core with Lanturn, one of our later picks for this team. Next we have Shiftry, our Offensive Defogger, who has decent type synergy with Primeape + Drifblim. It was apparent we needed some Ice checks, so we added Floatzel for speed control and priority, as well as Lanturn as a Electric-Immunity and the second half of our VoltTurn combo. Lastly, we needed Stealth Rocks of our own, and surprisingly we decided upon Clefairy for its bulk and reliable recovery. This team has alot of room for improvement. For instance, we don't have a Normal-Type switch in, as we decided Golem > Clefairy would leave us Fighting weak. (RIP Mesprit) However, if you play your cards right with this team, Drifblim will prove just as useful this generation as it did in ORAS.

    Importable Workshop Team (open)
    Drifblim @ Liechi Berry
    Ability: Unburden
    EVs: 12 HP / 252 Atk / 32 Def / 36 SpD / 176 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Acrobatics
    - Substitute
    - Knock Off
    - Will-O-Wisp

    Primeape @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Defiant
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Close Combat
    - U-turn
    - Stone Edge
    - Earthquake

    Shiftry @ Life Orb
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    Hasty Nature
    - Defog
    - Knock Off
    - Sucker Punch
    - Leaf Storm

    Floatzel @ Life Orb/Waterium-Z
    Ability: Swift Swim
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam
    - Focus Blast
    - Aqua Jet

    Lanturn @ Assault Vest
    Ability: Volt Absorb
    EVs: 252 SpA / 132 SpD / 124 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Scald
    - Volt Switch
    - Ice Beam
    - Hidden Power [Grass]

    Clefairy @ Eviolite
    Ability: Magic Guard
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Soft-Boiled
    - Moonblast
    - Stealth Rock
    - Thunder Wave


    Shoutouts (open)
    Shoutouts to Akir, PokemonMasterTJ, GeneralAnnoyance, Taskr, Broken Phobias, iRebel, PenguinAssault, Shequanda, UberSkitty, WaterLad, Earlio, and anyone else who helped put this team together. I know trying to build a team with something as unconventional as Drifblim was a huge task, but we did it, and I'm extremely proud of it. Great Job everyone!
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  5. Sir Kay

    Sir Kay Trace music makes the fairies dance
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2014
    Messages:
    564
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Import (open)

    Vanilluxe @ Life Orb
    Ability: Snow Warning
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Hasty Nature
    - Freeze-Dry
    - Blizzard
    - Ice Shard
    - Explosion

    Sandshrew-Alola @ Light Clay
    Ability: Slush Rush
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Aurora Veil
    - Rapid Spin
    - Iron Head
    - Earthquake

    Barbaracle @ Rockium Z
    Ability: Tough Claws
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Shell Smash
    - Razor Shell
    - Stone Edge
    - Return

    Turtonator @ White Herb
    Ability: Shell Armor
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Shell Smash
    - Fire Blast
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Hidden Power [Grass]

    Shiftry @ Life Orb
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Knock Off
    - Sucker Punch
    - Leaf Blade

    Raichu-Alola @ Life Orb
    Ability: Surge Surfer
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Nasty Plot
    - Thunderbolt
    - Psyshock
    - Focus Blast



    So a-Veil is far from dead with the new shifts. I've been playing it almost religiously since the tier shifts and its still just as dumb as ever. The only real hit is that you don't have rocks anymore from your lead which kinda sucks, but over all its a small price to pay for what you're getting. I've seen a few people toy around with a-veil after the shifts but no ones been using what I think is the best setter in the whole tier in Sandshrew-Alola. Its the fastest setter in the tier under hail so that already makes it a lot better then things like regicie or jynx, and having spin also is really cool too if you can get it off. Barbaracle and Turtonator remain the best abusers of a-veil in the whole tier, literally winning games on their own when you get them off, and having enough bulk to set up on majority of the tier behind an a-veil. The rest of the teams kinda fluff at that point, but having stuff that can set up past Quagsire is nice.

    A-veil will remain to be a very powerful play style coming into this next meta, being able to just steal games with little to no effort/skill is a very powerful thing, and I can honestly say this is one of the best ladder crushing play styles the tier has to offer. Most teams just don't have what it takes to stop a dedicated a-veil team because the counter play to it is so small and it varies depending on what set up sweeper you decide to run. It's extremely powerful and a lot of people have been sleeping on it since the shifts.
  6. Yung Dramps

    Yung Dramps

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2017
    Messages:
    292
    ffs can't we let this cancerous playstyle keel over and die already

    I'm not too sure about Alolan Sandshrew, honestly. It's so slow that even under hail, it gets outsped by most common scarfers, as well as Electrode, which, while uncommon, can outspeed and Taunt it. I personally think that Dual Screens are still better, due to having a reliable setter in Meowstic-M, which only consumes one team slot. Aveil requires a Hail setter, which restricts team-building a bit, while DS allows you to be more free-form, and gives you room for more sweepers. If you're gonna run Aveil, Jynx seems like the better pick for a setter, due to still being very speedy for PU standards, having actual offensive presence, meaning it can do more than just setting up and dying, and Lovely Kiss to buy time to set up the Veil. All that Sandshrew has going for it is pure Speed and Rapid Spin.
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  7. Broken Phobias

    Broken Phobias

    Joined:
    May 25, 2015
    Messages:
    466
    [​IMG]
    Sah dudes BP here again to tell you what else I think is broken! So I have been updating my google doc with notes and opinions with some of the borked stuff I've seen on ladder. Now I understand no team is perfect but the thing is there are some Pokemon that instantly make your team better just by adding them on to it. Trust me after going on several different alts and laddering with several different teams I've began to take note of two more very problematic Pokemon.

    [​IMG]

    So believe it or not Vivillion is actually the devil (get it because its dex entry is 666). Because of its ability, compound eyes, 98% accurate Sleep Powders become such an issue. The fact that this Pokemon is almost guaranteed a chance to set up is not very healthy for the tier. That coupled with its access to the best Flying-type STAB in the game is nothing to take lightly. Vivillion could be somewhat manageable if it weren't for Z-moves being introduced. This Pokemon can nuke anything with its Z-move at +1. This doesn't help the fact that it gets great coverage having access to Energy Ball as well. Vivillion makes Pokemon like our lovely friend Lilligant completely obsolete and I just can't stand for this. For these reasons Vivillion is broken.

    Checks & Counters
    • Choice Scarf Scyther
    • Vital Spirt AV Magmortar
    • Specially Defensive Rotom-Fan
    • Klinklang
    • Metang
    • Ferroseed
    • Priority Users


    [​IMG]

    I guess of all the Pokemon I've underestimated, Ludicolo is the worst. Ludicolo is actually way scarier then Gurdurr in my honest to god opinion. I have battled this thing 7 different times and all of those 7 times I got ruined because as soon as Ludicolo comes out late game and it gets up rain you better believe something is dying. Ludicolo has access to Swift Swim and strong STAB which immediately makes it a perfect rain sweeper. This be all that of a problem except for the fact that it is part Grass-type and is able to threaten a large sum number of potential switch-ins with its Grass-type STAB moves. Another thing to note is that Ludicolo has decent bulk for the PU tier which immediately puts it over last generations usual suspects. While in rain this Pokemon is almost unstoppable due to its speed and bulk.

    Checks & Counters
    • Ferroseed
    • Togedarmu with Zingzap
    • Roselia
    • Choice Scarf Scyther
    • Togetic
    • AV Hariyama
    • Abomasnow



    [​IMG]
    NOT BROKEN JUST NEED TO GO OVER IT REAL QUICK
    So some of you may be wondering why Victreebell isn't broken but Ludicolo is. The difference between Ludicolo and Victreebel is just one thing. Victreebell is incredibly frail and very easy to take advantage of. Victreebel is easily beaten by any strong priority users on your team which makes it very hard to use. The other thing is outside of sun Victreebel is just plan bad because how frail it is. Ludicolo outside of rain can still function somewhat as a decent special attacker not to mention Ludicolo itself is usually the Pokemon that sets up rain where as Victreebell just doesn't room in its moveset nor the defenses to run Sunny Day.
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  8. Yung Dramps

    Yung Dramps

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2017
    Messages:
    292
    image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg
    I am formally reaching out to the PU council and requesting that Musharna, Gallade and Vivillon are all quick-banned simultaneously.

    As evidenced by a lot of the "ban this" posts floating around, there is much discussion on what is considered unhealthy for the meta. Alolan Exeggutor, Ludicolo, Gurdurr, Sableye and many others forum members haven't called out yet are considered unhealthy by some, and they are interesting points of discussion when concerning the possibility of suspects. However, the thing with those Pokemon is that while some may consider them OP, others do not feel the same, claiming the meta has gotten strong enough to the point where these Pokemon that would have been monsters in ORAS are able to be checked and stopped in today's souped-up metagame. Overall, we need to give these Pokemon more time to see if they're truly broken or not.

    Now, let's move on to what I like to call The Terrible Trio. These are the beasts that are super over-centralizing, and constrain team-building to an unacceptable degree. Almost everyone unanimously agrees that these Pokemon need to be banned for the greater good of PU. I would make analyses explaining why these three creatures are so game-breaking, but honestly, literally EVERYTHING that is there to be said about them has been said. But for those who somehow have managed to completely evade all mention or usage of the Terrible Trio, allow me to provide quick summaries about why these three Pokemon are steam-rolling the meta.

    image.jpg
    Musharna: Musharna does not die. Simple as that. However, unlike Quagsire or Sableye, it does not suffer from being overly passive: That couldn't be further from the case. It's two most popular sets are both sweeping sets: The first relies on fortifying yourself with Calm Mind + Barrier to the point where the only thing that could possibly kill you is Toxic, and then spamming the immense nuke that is Stored Power, while the second set switches out Barrier for Dazzling Gleam (Often paired up with Fairium Z) to fry the Dark types that could possibly stand up to the Stored Power set.

    image.jpg
    Gallade: Similar to Musharna, Gallade needs just two sets to shred 90% of PU to ribbons. The first is Choice Band, which has become more popular due to the loss of Sawk, giving you immediate breaking power from the get-go. The second is SD w/ Shattered Psyche, which forces switches and then proceeds to kill everything except for some Flying types.

    image.jpg
    Vivillon: Vivillon might just be the worst of the Terrible Trio. Literally, Vivillon needs just ONE moveset to maul every playstyle, from hyper offense to stall. Sleep Powder, Quiver Dance, Hurricane, Energy Ball. You put something to sleep with 98% accurate Sleep Powder, set up, and then kill everything that stands in front of you. Something that could live a hit? Use Supersonic Skystrike to vaporize them without a second thought. The only thing that stops it somewhat are Steel types, and considering how few viable Steels exist in PU, that's asking a lot just to beat ONE Pokemon. If you get unlucky, Vivillon might even just keep you asleep and beat your Steel with sheer brute force.

    Do I even need to continue? It's obvious these three mons need to go for being so terrifying and hard to properly stop. It's not a question of if, it's a question of when. And quite frankly, I hope "when" is very, very soon.
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  9. Broken Phobias

    Broken Phobias

    Joined:
    May 25, 2015
    Messages:
    466
    TEAM DUMP

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    Samurott & Lilligant
    Balance

    Description (open)

    So this is probably my favorite team I have built so far in PU Beta. Samurott and Lilligant form a great offensive core taking care of each others weaknesses. Samurott when holding and expert belt makes for a terrific Gastrodon and Quagsire lure. An Ice Beam can also do a considerable amount to opposing Togekiss as well and its lot better then taking Recoil from Life Orb or getting choice locked and having to hard switch. Lilligant preforms as a terrific late game sweeper option as it is able to put things to sleep and set up with Quiver Dance. Assault Vest Hariyama is probably the Specially Defensive back bone of this team coming on many Special attacks aimed at this team. Hariyama I have found is able to interchange abilities as Thick Fat isn't really all that handy when its already holding an Assult vest. Miltank the Physical wall that sets up rocks and Cripples opposing walls with Toxic. It is also the grass switch in when Vivillian tries to put something to sleep. Togetic is the hazard removal and is more commonly used for crippling opposing offensive threats with Thunder-Wave. Lanturn is probably my favorite member of this team just because it puts in a ton of work as a pivot. Choice Specs Volt Switches are not something that a lot of Pokemon really want to take. Together these Pokemon form a fantastic Balance team.


    Importable (open)

    Samurott (M) @ Expert Belt
    Ability: Shell Armor
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Naive Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam
    - Aqua Jet
    - Hidden Power [Grass]

    Lilligant @ Life Orb
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 1 Atk
    - Quiver Dance
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Rock]
    - Sleep Powder

    Hariyama @ Assault Vest
    Ability: Thick Fat
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    Adamant Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Knock Off
    - Bullet Punch
    - Fake Out

    Miltank @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sap Sipper
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
    Impish Nature
    - Body Slam
    - Milk Drink
    - Toxic
    - Stealth Rock

    Togetic @ Eviolite
    Ability: Serene Grace
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Roost
    - Thunder Wave
    - Dazzling Gleam
    - Defog

    Lanturn @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Volt Absorb
    EVs: 252 SpA / 72 SpD / 184 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Volt Switch
    - Ice Beam
    - Hidden Power [Grass]



    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Dark Desires Anti-Stall

    Description (open)

    This is my second favorite team simply because it gets the job done but it takes longer unfortunatly. I tried building anti stall and it worked out pretty well. Shiftry and Klinklang form a decent core although a bit weak to Fire-types. Shiftry takes care of that pesky Quagsire so Klinklang is able to sweep later in the game. It also can weaken walls by knocking off their item and pounding them with a strong STAB Leaf Storm. Klinklang is around for late game sweeps or to just pick up some last minute KO's. Sableye cripples offensive threats with Will-O-Wisp and Taunts Pokemon hoping to get off some recovery. Assault Vest Lanturn functions as the teams Bulky Pivot coming in on weak special attacks and pivoting out providing the team with a steady flow of momentum. Weezing is the real killer setting up Toxic Spikes so its able to whittle down opposing offense and stall teams alike. When Weezing gets low it is able to use its Z-Haze to recover 100% HP prolonging its lifespan. Camerupt, probably the weak link of the team :(, sets up rocks and protects in order to gain more Leftovers Recovery. Camerupt is also able to take on the likes of Vivillian with its Fire-type STAP move Fire Blast and other offensive threats as well.


    Importable (open)

    Pride (Shiftry) (M) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    Lonely Nature
    - Sucker Punch
    - Knock Off
    - Leaf Storm
    - Synthesis

    Envy (Klinklang) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Clear Body
    Happiness: 0
    EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Gear Grind
    - Frustration
    - Substitute
    - Shift Gear

    Greed (Sableye) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Prankster
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    Careful Nature
    - Taunt
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Recover
    - Knock Off

    Gluttony (Lanturn) (M) @ Assault Vest
    Ability: Water Absorb
    EVs: 252 SpA / 132 SpD / 124 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Scald
    - Volt Switch
    - Ice Beam
    - Hidden Power [Grass]

    Despair (Weezing) (M) @ Icium Z
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Haze

    Sloth (Camerupt) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Solid Rock
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Stealth Rock
    - Fire Blast
    - Earth Power
    - Protect


    Ares, Phat Albert, TJ and 6 others like this.
  10. PenguinAssault

    PenguinAssault

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2017
    Messages:
    30

    Hey I just wanted to respond a bit on the possible bans you are calling for.

    First, I can definitely see your side of it, these mons as a whole are clearly powerful, as Vivillon just dropped from NU, while Gallade is powerful due to it's dual stab and lack of some competition now that Sawk is gone, as well as Musharna being powerful with the fighting spam around and just being a great sponge and a win-con all by itself that doesn't require it's teammates help too much, so I do think you have valid points here.

    *After careful consideration, I agree that Musharna is pretty unhealthy as is too.

    GALLADE

    [​IMG]

    Reasoning (open)

    ban this thing, ty.



    VIVILLON
    [​IMG]
    At first, I thought this mon was gonna be a nightmare to deal with. Since I had never dealt with tier drops/shifts before, I thought immediately that a bug/flying with quiver dance and hurricane as well as an almost perfect accuracy sleep powder was going to be way too strong. However, after experimenting with it a bit, and versing it a ton, I think this mon actually is probably the least deserving of a suspect or ban, and let me explain exactly why. I think that due to it's horrible defensive typing, Vivillon is even weaker to rocks than mons like Scyther are due to it's lower speed tier. On top of this, Vivillon does not have reliable recovery and cannot recover from the 50% damage taken like Scyther, Charizard, and Articuno can. Furthermore, Vivillon faces stiff competition I feel for it's role by both Scyther and Lilligant, both of which hit harder and have a better speed tier. This is not to say Vivillon is not bad though, it is extremely good in my opinon, and accuracy boosted Hurricanes hurt like hell, especially when coming from a stab boosted butterfly. Let me get into the Checks and Counters to explain a little bit more though.

    ...................................
    CHECKS AND COUNTERS
    ...................................
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Other Checks and Counters (open)
    Other Checks and Counters (open)

    SAFETY GOGGLES
    CHOICE SCARF[​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Explanation of Vivillon's Checks and Counters (open)

    Okay, so imo Vivillon isn't too bad, and the item based counters alone in choice scarf and safety goggles really just diminish the effect of Vivillon's "only set" as you said. First, Dibs the Dreamer introduced us to this amazing mon, Oricorio Pom-Pom. You can either run Safety goggles on it, or just sub up, copy the quiver dance with the Dancer ability, and KO it with Revelation dance. Imo, this is probably the absolute best counter to Vivillon currently in the meta, and part of the reason I don't feel it's ban-worthy. Next, we have Komala, who with an AV set can withstand quite the beating and can't be put to sleep with Sleep Powder. Additionally, if you start seeing a ton of Vivillon's, Komala CAN learn Rock Slide, so that can OHKO and help a ton verse scyther pivots as well. Lycanroc is a very good counter as well, and quite possibly tied for the best, as it's priority Accelrock instantly OHKO's Vivillon, and a lead Lycanroc is never a bad idea to begin with. Zebstrika has the ability sap sipper and can absorb the sleep powder quite nicely, as well as OHKO'ing it with Volt Switch, and Zebstrika survives hurricane, with it only 3hKO'ing it. Jynx as well outspeeds Vivillon and kills it with stab ice beam, which is pretty nice, and beyond that, Jynx can set up on Vivillon as well with it's Z lovely kiss set. Finally, while not so much a counter, I think Scyther deserves honorable mention as it can OHKO Vivillon with Aerial Ace, and I also think that it stands out as much more of a problem than Vivillon currently is in the PU metagame.


    Calcs ofc (open)

    252 SpA Oricorio-Electric Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Vivillon: 510-600 (169.4 - 199.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Vivillon: 476-562 (158.1 - 186.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 Atk Life Orb Lycanroc Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Vivillon: 546-645 (181.3 - 214.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (LOL)

    252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Vivillon: 464-548 (154.1 - 182%) -- guaranteed OHKO







    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    -----------------------------------​
    So basically, I do agree with the fact that Gallade is a problem, and I do
    think that he should be banned eventually, but I actually think the state
    of the metagame right now is semi-healthy and I hope my explanations
    as well as calcs proved that. Thanks for reading :)​
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
  11. Yung Dramps

    Yung Dramps

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2017
    Messages:
    292
    First of all, I would like to highlight an important rule my buddy MaceMaster from 1v1 once said that I've taken to heart ever since: Just because a Pokemon has checks and counters does not mean it is balanced. Sawk did quite poorly against Z-move based Psychic and Ghost types, as well as Fairies in general if it lacked Poison Jab. Does that mean it should've stayed? No! It was clearly over-centralizing regardless, and it's ban only improved the state of the metagame.


    Second of all, out of the 7 checks/counters you listed, 4 of them lose if Vivillon has already set up a QD.

    Komala:
    +1 252+ SpA Vivillon Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Komala: 270-318 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


    Even if you are Timid, if AV Komala takes just two rounds of Stealth Rock, it no longer checks Vivillon.

    Jynx:
    +1 252 SpA Vivillon Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jynx: 366-432 (135 - 159.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Jynx only counters Vivillon if it switches in BEFORE Vivillon sets up a QD. If it's after, it loses. Sash Jynx is gimmicky and unpractical, and Choice Scarf is not worth sacrificing Lovely Kiss.

    Zebstrika:
    +1 252 SpA Vivillon Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zebstrika: 255-300 (87.6 - 103%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Similar to Jynx, Zebstrika only checks if it switches in prior to QD set-up. And if it takes just ONE round of Stealth Rock, Supersonic Skystrike OHKOs.

    Scyther:

    Do I honestly even need a calc? Like Zebstrika and Jynx, Scyther loses unless you predict a switch and get it in before Vivillon starts setting up. "But what about Scarf Scyther?" Well, that leads into my next point...

    Choice Scarf:

    Honestly, this is heavily flawed logic. Don't get me wrong, Scarf is a great item, but this would be like if I said "Scarfed Flying types and Scarfed Ghost types beat Gallade, so it's balanced." Also, ever heard of Sticky Web?

    Safety Goggles:

    The fact that you're actually recommending this as an item only proves how stupid Vivillon really is. You could be running so many other more reliable, powerful, and generally more useful items like Life Orb, Choice Specs, Choice Scarf or Z-crystals. Instead, you gotta rely on this weird, situational item just to beat ONE Pokemon. ONE. Safety Goggles can have occasional uses as a surprise option to trick foes, but it shouldn't be required to beat, again, ONE Pokemon.

    Look Penguin, I think you're a cool dude, and have made some awesome posts in the past. But I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one. Scyther's healthiness may also be questionable, but at least Scyther can't cripple it's checks 98% of the time and spam a 110 BP Flying STAB with few repercussions. At least Scyther can't boost it's speed, bulk and power in one turn while the opponent begs for their check to wake up before they're nuked away. If not a quick-ban, Vivillon AT LEAST deserves an immediate suspect.
  12. 5FingerMachPunch

    5FingerMachPunch

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2015
    Messages:
    17
    Hello, I wanted to make a post of my own in regards to the 3 mons that everyone thinks are the most overbearing and worthy of being quickbanned, as I do have my own opinions on them myself, and those are Gallade, Musharna, and Vivillon. So without further ado, I'm just gonna get right into it.

    [​IMG]

    Yeah, Gallade... I've been in favor of a quickban for him for awhile now even before Alpha came around (if you couldn't tell by the fact that I said in the Alpha thread when it was nearing its end that Gallade was the #1 mon in PU imo), and that has not changed one bit, I still think this mon is #1 to none and insanely stupid. I'll probably link to that post if you want a little more in-depth on why I think this mon is broken, but the tldr is that Gallade is a broken pos that just needs to go. Not much to even say here, as I've already stated it over and over and others have voiced the same thoughts as me.

    http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sm-pu-alpha-playable-on-ps.3587369/page-16#post-7454202 for anyone who cares to read a bit more in-depth (not too much though) on why I thought Gallade was (and still is) simply too much for PU.

    [​IMG]

    Now Musharna I feel is also quickban worthy, BUT I'm also going to keep an open mind here and say that I think that people are overexaggerating just how broken this mon is. People are saying that it's some unkillable, unstoppable behemoth of a mon, which couldn't be further from the truth. Infact, it's fairly handlable, and I WILL talk about what makes Musharna the monster that it is. I think people are simply freaking out over how common Musharna is rn because of how unhealthy Gallade is in the tier. I'll return to that point, but for now I'm just gonna list the 2 more common sets rn in the meta and talk about why I think they're more or less able to be dealt with adequately:


    Musharna @ Psychium Z/Colbur Berry
    Ability: Synchronize
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Calm Mind
    - Barrier/Heal Bell
    - Stored Power
    - Moonlight

    Tbqh, I don't like this set as much as the second set, but I digress. This set just loses to too much if it forgoes Barrier on the set, being easier to overwhelm with physical attackers over the course of a match. If it decides to forgo Heal Bell for Barrier, it's a lot more vunerable to being worn down by Toxic, although this can sort of be remedied by running another cleric on the team, but nevertheless it's more pressured by Toxic and status without Heal Bell. This set is super easy to take advantage of with a Dark/Steel type, and lastly Musharna still has to play around the potential of getting critted by an attack, so it has to be careful when attempting to setup a sweep.

    Musharna @ Fairium Z/Colbur Berry
    Ability: Synchronize
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Calm Mind
    - Psyshock
    - Dazzling Gleam
    - Moonlight

    The more effective set imho, as it lets Musharna set up a CM and just start pounding away at the other team. Z-Dazzling Gleam let's Musharna smack around Dark-types that attempt to switch in and try to wall it. This set also doesn't have to worry so much about whether it'll get screwed and get critted at a bad time over a longer sweep like the Barrier set does. However, Z-Dazzling Gleam is easily able to be scouted for which can be wasted if played around properly, making it kinda a liability (I say kinda because I'll be getting to what I think makes Musharna as quickban worthy as I believe it is). Also, this set still faces a lot of the same problems that the first set faces due to the lack of moves like Heal Bell and Barrier.

    Now that I got that out the way, ultimately there's a couple things that I think make Musharna as broken as it is, and those are:

    1.) Z-Moves: The introduction of Z-Moves really helps Musharna particularly for 2 reasons: it can't be Knocked Off, which means Musharna can comfortably tank a few Knock Offs thrown its way in combination with its bulk and shrug them off like they were nothing, and they can't be Tricked off either, which means that Choiced mons looking to try to cripple Musharna actually don't wanna click Trick for fear that they'll just be locked into Trick and it'll all just be a futile effort. This means that Musharna is just that much harder to cripple compared to the previous gens.

    2.) Teambuilding Strain: I believe Musharna is more beatable in practice than it is in theory. However, without a doubt, I think the worst part about Musharna is how much of a strain it puts on teambuilding in particular, as you absolutely NEED to make sure you can keep all of its possible sets in check, and this simply just restricts teambuilding in a bad way to the point where not running one thing can cause you to lose to a certain Musharna set whenever you happen to run into it. Gallade has this similar effect in the tier itself, and it forces people to run Musharna or another bulky mon that can actually deal with Gallade decently well, which is why it's as common as it is. So with that...

    tldr I think Musharna is worthy of a quickban currently, but it's moreso because of the effect it has on teambuilding right now as a result of Gallade running around forcing people to have to prepare for it along with Gallade and because Z-Moves effectly eliminate 2 of the ways to deal with Musharna previously. I'm going to propose that as much as I want to see Musharna go that the appropriate way to deal with this situation is that only Gallade should be quickbanned in the next voting stage, and Musharna should be left another week in the meta with Gallade gone to see if it still has the same overcentralizing effect that it currently has on the tier.
    [​IMG]

    I'm also not gonna touch on Vivillon too much as I did a more quick tldr of my initial feelings for Vivillon, and while I still stand by what I said about Vivillon, I don't think it's actually even that unbearbale. Offense has ways out vs it via priority and Scarfers, and bulkier teams can deal with it as well via mons like Bronzor and Audino, although the only thing is they'll have to sack something to sleep but this shouldn't be too problematic for them anyways. Ofc that's the same for offensive teams but honestly it's not like other mons don't put you in that same situation anyways (*cough* Lilligant). I feel like Vivillon is also being overreacted to, and I think Vivillon should be given at least some more time in the meta to be adapted to before being quick to be called broken for the tier. If after that time it's still shown to be overbearing then sure, I'd be open for a quickban for it, but for now I think Vivillon should stay around to see if the tier is able to deal with its presence in the meta.

    And that's about it, I feel like people are being too quick to call for bans at the very beginning of a new meta when it's still not even fully explored, but I think we can say with confidence that Gallade absolutely needs to go as it's not letting the tier develop at all in a healthy manner and it'll just continue to remain this way if we don't get rid of its presence.
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
  13. PursuitOfHappiny

    PursuitOfHappiny

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2015
    Messages:
    360
    A few things that i would like to address here.

    First of all you're supposed to switch these checks immediately into Vivillon to prevent from being swept. So let's say Vivillon comes in and it Quivers up as you go into your Komala. Komala can take a +1 Hurricane (Please run Timid Vivillon) and retaliate back with either Frustration or Rock Slide:

    +1 252 SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Komala: 145-172 (43.4 - 51.4%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO
    252+ Atk Komala Frustration vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Vivillon: 291-343 (96.6 - 113.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

    Sash Jynx was a perfectly viable set in ORAS so no it's not gimmicky and unpractical lol.

    Again you're supposed to switch these checks in as soon as Vivillon comes out. You let something to sleep, you switch to your check on the Quiver and done. Scarf scyther still outspeeds +1 Viv and OHKOs it.

    Vivillon is a good mon no doubt but please don't describe it as some unkillable god. There are a plethora of ways to deal with this mon. Klinklang, Ice Shard Piloswine, Double prio Kanga, AV Magmortar, Regirock, viable Scarfers like Primeape, Haunter, Jynx and all the other checks listed by others can atleast take one hit and KO back. So for future reference, before shouting "broken! council pls halp" try to look more into it and analyse what are ways to deal with a common threat.
    Ares, Lazadamn, Oda and 16 others like this.
  14. Tuthur1

    Tuthur1

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    42
    Hello, like a lot of people, I wanted to point out the things I feel broken in the current metagame.
    Gallade
    [​IMG]
    Nothing to add to Broken Phobias' and 5FingerMachPunch's post. This thing is broken.

    Hariyama
    [​IMG]
    Unlike Gallade, Hariyama has no defensive counterplay. With a 120 base attack boosted by Guts and a wide coverage in Close Combat, Facade and Heavy Slam it can 2HKO every defensive mon after Rocks in the tier except Gourgeist-Super.

    252+ Atk Guts Hariyama Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Togetic: 218-258 (69.4 - 82.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Guts Hariyama Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 300-354 (87.2 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Guts Hariyama Facade (140 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 190-224 (43.8 - 51.7%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Guts Hariyama Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 176-208 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    -1 252+ Atk Guts Hariyama Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 236-278 (61.6 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    -1 252+ Atk Guts Hariyama Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 163-193 (53.6 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Guts Hariyama Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 148-175 (45.6 - 54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Guts Hariyama Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 244-288 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Guts Hariyama Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Scyther: 191-225 (55.6 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Guts Hariyama Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Weezing: 163-192 (48.8 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
    252+ Atk Guts Hariyama Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Regirock: 300-354 (82.4 - 97.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Hariyama needs only three moves to beat all defensive mons bar Gourgeist, the last move can filled with either Knock Off to deal with Gourgeist or Bullet Punch / Fake Out to improve its match-up against offense. I show you how much defensive playstyle struggles against Hariyama but it's match-up against offensive one is also not bad. Hariyama's good bulk (144/60/60) allows him to take a hit and kill the opposing Pokémon. Hariyama's poor speed can be counterbalanced byeither Sticky Web or Trick Room which are both effective playstyles at the moment.

    Sorry for the bad english, I'm french.
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
  15. Yung Dramps

    Yung Dramps

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2017
    Messages:
    292
    Y'know, normally, most of the bulky checks you listed would be perfectly viable answers. But you and others seem to be forgetting about the one thing that, at least in my opinion, sets an otherwise totally checkable Pokemon over the edge: Supersonic Skystrike. For example, 80 HP Klinklang can take up to 80% damage from +1 SS, meaning if it takes a few rounds of Rocks/Spikes, it no longer checks.

    But, to be fair, SS is just a one-time thing, so if you waste it on something else, the check can come in and revenge kill. But then again, there are have been countless cases across many formats where Z-moves have turned healthy, manageable Pokemon into monsters. I'm not sure about Priority Kanga: Sure, Fake Out + Sucker Punch obviously KOes, but Sucker Punch turns into one big mindgame, where you have to predict whether Vivillon will set up or attack. Regirock can check if something else is asleep, so I'll give you that one. Scarf Revenge Killers also KO back, sure.

    I still feel like Vivillon deserves a look, but after reading your post, I'm a little less extreme about it.
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
    tenkai and drumstick like this.
  16. Sir Kay

    Sir Kay Trace music makes the fairies dance
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2014
    Messages:
    564
    So I actually wanted to test out screens before I replied to this, and after playing around with it I've realized a-veil just works so much better in practice. At first I agreed with the theory that screens isn't that much worse, but after playing with it its actually a lot worse in practice. The counter play to Meowstic is to literally just kill it and you'll deny either a reflect or a light screen, and given how many strong knock off or bug type pokemon are in the tier right now, its actually fairly easy to do. With a-veil the counter play is literally run a scarfer that can out speed the a-veil setter which is a lot harder to naturally come by then it is to have a mon that can kill Meowstic.

    As for why I use shrew over anything else, its because the speed is literally all that matters. It doesn't matter if all shrew does is set the veil and die because that's literally the only role it needs to fill on the team. Jynx might be a better pokemon, but its not better for the role of setting a-veil because any mon above 95 base speed that can ohko it all the sudden shuts down your ability to set a-veil as planned. With shrew the only thing you're scared of is scarfers so the threat is much much smaller, making it more consistent.
  17. erisia

    erisia nyoen wnt an popsicel
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,937
    Not that I know anything about PU but if Speed is all you're concerned about then why not run Choice Scarf Jynx? The moves could be Aurora Veil / Blizzard / Psychic / Trick or something. If you're literally just trying to set up A-Veil as fast as possible then this seems better, apart from the fact it might not die immediately after using the move and you're forced to switch to whatever you need to bring in.
  18. Yung Dramps

    Yung Dramps

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2017
    Messages:
    292
    There's one big flaw in Aveil: The fact that you are forced to run TWO ice types. That may not seem like a big deal, but remember: PU is currently filled to the brim with Fighting types. Having two Pokemon that lose to them is a HUGE liability. Alolan Sandshrew is just sitting there, begging for Gurdurr to come in and set up. Meanwhile, Vanilluxe is completely demolished by AV Hariyama. Another thing to keep in mind: You NEED Hail to be set up for Veil to work. Ever since Aurorus and Alolan Sandslash went, other weather playstyles have increased in usage, with you often getting beaned by Volbeat. And don't even get me started on what Trick Room does to Veil.
  19. Sir Kay

    Sir Kay Trace music makes the fairies dance
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2014
    Messages:
    564
    I haven't tried running scarf yet but that doesn't seem too bad? Being locked into a-veil sounds kinda shitty tho so idk how well I'd actually work in practice but I'll test it out later.
    Having 2 ice types isn't a problem for this play style because it doesn't play by the normal set of rules. Yes Gurdurr is kinda an issue and in insight I could probably afford to use a different psychic type that deals with BU Gurdurr. But fighting types aren't an issue so long as you have a set up sweeper that can force them out via kill pressure. This isn't balanced where you need to have amazing type synergy and switch ins/ defensive answers to everything. As long as you have something that can revenge kill all the fighting types you're golden. Also on the whole "Hariyama walls Vanilluxe thing"
    4 Atk Life Orb Vanilluxe Explosion vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hariyama: 337-396 (78.5 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    As for losing to other weather yeah that's fine. Other weather styles wont kill a-veil or make it any less amazing as a play style. I really don't see the relevance that it loses to other gimmicky play styles.
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
  20. Earlio

    Earlio

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    502
    Is Musharna just "too good" for your uninspired team to deal with? Worry no more:
    [​IMG]
    Wormadam-Heat (Wormadam-Trash) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Overcoat
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    Sassy Nature
    IVs: 0 Spe
    - Stealth Rock
    - Gyro Ball
    - Toxic
    - Protect

    It completely walls any variant of Musharna, allowing a free switch-in for Wormadam and then it sets up rocks or poisons whatever switches in. Protect stalls for recovery and scouts out fire coverage. Gyro Ball does damage and breaks Vivillon's sub.

    In addition to being the hardest stop to musharna ever conceived by mankind, Wormadam can also check the following:
    -Vivillon (with substitute it requires a lot of prediction, comes in for free on sleep powder)
    -Lilligant lacking HP Fire
    -Jynx (after sleep clause rip)
    -Lurantis lacking HP Fire
    -Oricorio (-Baile)
    -Swanna
    -Mr.Mime

    So what have we learned?
    Use Ferroseed
    Wormadam Trash is not as trash as it's name would imply!
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
  21. BPGXMG

    BPGXMG

    Joined:
    May 6, 2017
    Messages:
    409
    I guess I should say something about what's broken and stuff.

    OBVIOUSLY BROKEN
    Gallade: Do I even need to go into why? This thing is just absolute nuts. It scares a lot out, which gives it the free set up turn it needs to demolish the tier. Anything slower than it is gonna get wrecked by either its great STABs or its wide coverage. Not really much to say because everyone else already said it for me.
    Vivillion: I think some people are seriously underestimating this mon. Sleep Powder is no joke on this thing, because it means it's always getting a QD up. And as for priority? It's somewhat common, yes, but it's just about the only thing that can beat it. +1 SSSS can take care of most steels. Ferro seed has a neutrality to Hurricane anyways, and it doesn't even OHKO with Gyro Ball anyways. AV Magmortar drops to +1 SSSS too, but most importantly, it's weak to SR and is thus not too hard to wear down. As for Scarf mons, many of them are also weak to SR as well - most notably Scyther. Vivillion is for sure the weakest of the unholy trinity, but I still think it needs to go.
    Musharna: Again, everyone already did my work for me.

    Now, for what's not so blatantly broken:
    Gurdurr: This thing is, in my eyes, too much for the tier. Running a similar set to Conkeldurr's old UU one (d punch/knock/bulk up/facade or mach with guts) single-handedly demolishes stall and balance. Guts takes away the potential of burning this to stop it, and Drain Punch lets it heal off what damage it took, making it very hard to revenge in combination with Eviolite. Speaking of Evio, it makes it such that stall can't ever get close to hurting it when in tandem with guts and Drain Punch. Knock circumvents even Musharna for a counter (at least the Stored Power sets; Z Musharna wins). Mach Punch makes sure it's not deadweight vs offense, either. I think that its ability to completely ruin any stall or balance team means it should be banned. If not this week, then maybe next.

    Finally, a set:
    Raichu-Alola @ Electrium Z
    Ability: Surge Surfer
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Spd / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Thunderbolt
    - Psyshock
    - Electric Terrain
    - Focus Blast
    It's very hard to get an opportunity to set up, yes. If it does, however, expect one mon on the opposing team to die. This is a double dance set in 1 move, which is really nice. You can also forgo E-Terrain and just get off a nuke. It's not the best set, not in this meta, but it still puts in work.
    Good J and Yung Dramps like this.
  22. Yung Dramps

    Yung Dramps

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2017
    Messages:
    292
    As evidenced by my recent posts, I completely agree with your stance on Vivillon. It honestly frightens me how many people are down-playing it's strength. A good chunk of the checks for it that have been suggested die to SS, and the ones that don't get worn down by Energy Ball (E.G. Regirock and other Rock types) and Stealth Rock.

    However, unlike some, I don't think Gurdurr is really broken. At least, not now. What separates it from Conkeldurr in UU is the fact it absolutely needs to hold Eviolite. Knock Off is everywhere in PU, and if Gurdurr loses Eviolite, it also loses a crap-ton of it's bulk, which is part of what makes it so threatening to certain builds. It's special bulk in particular faces a dramatic decrease after losing Eviolite, meaning that the likes of Haunter and Lilligant can easily revenge-kill. In short, I feel like without Eviolite, Gurdurr is an inferior Hariyama. I don't know how others have faired, but for me, I've never struggled with enemy Gurdurr. Maybe they get a KO, yes, but that's the most they do before they get revenge-killed. Before you call me out saying I have a skewed viewpoint, just know this is my experience with Gurdurr. I'm sure there are those that hate Gurdurr and auto-lose to it so much that they can't wait for it to be banned, and I respect their opinion. And admittedly, I have been exploiting Vivillon quite a bit the past day or so.

    Besides that, I also think that it's too early to judge it. The true test of how broken Gurdurr is will be when Musharna, Gallade and (maybe) Vivillon are all banned. All of these Pokemon are top threats that can all demolish Gurdurr in most cases. Once they are gone, Gurdurr usage will sky-rocket without a doubt. The question will then be "Can the meta handle Gurdurr without using the Terrible Trio?"
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
    Good J likes this.
  23. TheHungrySnorlax

    TheHungrySnorlax

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2013
    Messages:
    77
    While many others have already given their opinions on the most threatening elements of the metagame, I would like to bring the matter of Vivillon into perspective. I originally thought that vivillon was easily going to be the most threatening pokemon in the tier when PU beta just began, but as I played more and more matches, I have discovered the real issue at hand. The problem is, vivillon feels like it is a problem to the metagame, most notably by means of restricting teambuilding, but the reason you think this is so is because the presence of gallade and musharna already heavily affect the metagame (by forcing teams to run 2 or so fighting checks, a steel type, etc.) I think PenguinAssault is correct in saying that we should wait until these more threatening elements are removed from the metagame-because then, we can truly evaluate vivillon's effect on the metagame, thanks to the fact that when the time comes, the metagame will be a metagame with vivillon, but without gallade or musharna. I think waiting a few weeks into this future metagame is the best thing to do; this will allow us to observe how teams adapt to vivillon and, as implied earlier, observe whether vivillon's presence in PU is unhealthy.

    That being said, I do have a few things to say about vivillon. While you can pretty easily revenge kill it with a choice scarfer 90 base speed or faster, or with priority(such as lycanroc's accelrock, kangaskhan's fake out, and kabutops's aqua jet), in most scenarios, vivillon is going to leave its mark on a team either by crippling a valuable member on your team with sleep, noticeably denting at least one threat, or possibly a combination of both. The main reasons I could see people advocating a quickban or an immediate suspect in the future is that the majority of sleep absorbers put themselves in great danger by switching into vivillon(with the sole exception of cradily), and that its checks are prone to being worn down throughout the course of a match to the point where they potentially can be finished off by a boosted vivillon. However, as people have mentioned earlier, aggressive play through the means of switching into a check such as sap sipper zebstrika or magmortar can soften the blow from vivillon, perhaps halting or even preventing it from sweeping in a match. These checks are also very splashable onto most teams, so it isn't like you are taking extreme measures in order to keep vivillon in check(scarfers on teams isn't something unheard of, neither is having more than one check to a certain threat). I suppose we will have to wait for the next few weeks to determine whether vivillon is banworthy or not.
  24. PursuitOfHappiny

    PursuitOfHappiny

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2015
    Messages:
    360
    I posted earlier how Vivillon can be managed but i guess people are too stubborn. Also a lot of people here seem to forget that Vivillon itself is 4x weak to Stealth Rock! Hmm but that's a small detail after all since it's so broken right. Also why are you stating the most iffy checks to back up your arguments? Scarfers are weak to Stealth Rock: so what. In this case they have only one job to do outspeed and kill the butterfly. I really suggest that you read my post.

    About Gurdurr. Stall and balance have checks to this: Granbull, Worry Seed Gourgeist, Eviolite Scyther, Gallade, Togetic, Musharna, etc.
    So before saying it doesn't have answers and "it should be banned", please for the love of god do your research before posting. Kind reminder that beta isn't even a week old. I fully trust the council and so should everyone here that they will make the right decisions. However these kind of posts just put people off guard and lead to wrong conclusions with newer users.

    fyi use Alorachium Z or Fightinium Z on Raichu, much better alternatives. NP + 3 attacks is arguably its best set.
  25. UBERSkitty

    UBERSkitty

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    52
    So, here's a scoop on a random lead Vanilluxe set for you Aurora Veil lovers.

    [​IMG]
    Vanilluxe @ Icy Rock / Life Orb
    Ability: Snow Warning
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Hasty Nature
    - Blizzard
    - Explosion
    - Magic Coat
    - Filler

    First note, I have no idea who is the best Aurora Veil setter is to pair with this, the two I've seen most are Jynx and Alolan Sandshrew. As for Vanilluxe, to sum the whole thing up, it pretty much comes in, sets up hail, and weakens the opponent as much as possible for the incoming Aurora Veil users and set up mons, while potentially pulling off a couple other tricks. You can use it as a suicide lead or save it for later, depending on the match up. It may receive some competition as the Hail setter from Abomosnow, with its better coverage secondary Grass typing, or even Amaura (but not really) with its access to Stealth Rock, but as a lead, Vanilluxe has the advantage or a much higher Speed and a decent lead movepool with things like Explosion, Magic Coat, and Taunt. While this definitely won't fill up for everything that Aurorus could manage to pull off, especially with Alolan Sandslash at its side, its probably the best bet for Aurora Veil teams that we have right now.

    But on to the set itself, it's pretty standard, and can manage to cream unprepared opponents. As for its moveset, it has STAB Blizzard with 100% accuracy which is going to be your main option for hitting stuff. Explosion is an obvious on lead sets, giving momentum, with a free (besides the Vanilluxe dying) switch in while taking a good chunk of damage off the opponent's mon. This is especially useful for Aurora Veil Teams, as it allows you to bring in the Aurora Veil user more easily, so that the opponent can't try to stall out Hail. Magic Coat is where it gets cool. It helps against opposing potential leads, trying to set Hazards. Since Amaura is the only Hail Setter that gets Stealth Rock, no mons get both Aurora Veil and Stealth Rock (just let Smeargle drop, OU (don't)), and the rest of your team will just be set up mons, you likely won't run Stealth Rock on your team, so managing to get those up can come in handy. The same goes for Spikes and Toxic Spikes, though Stealth Rock is much more seen as a must on teams. Magic Coating Sticky Web can also be good, but you would have to watch out for the Defiant mons you find on most Stick Web teams. The last move is filler, just something to sprinkle on top to gain extra momentum against certain mons. It's coverage consists of Freeze-dry for Waters, Hidden Power Fire for certain Steel types, such as Mawile and Ferroseed, or Hidden Power Fighting for Piloswine and other certain Steel types, such as Probopass. Some other options include Ice Shard to get some chip damage on faster, frailer mons, Taunt so your opponents can't use you as set up fodder and don't feel like doing mind games with Magic Coat against slower opponents, Icy Wind to assure your Aurora Veil setter can outspeed, Light Screen if you wanna be that guy with double screens, Toxic to further weaken bulkier mons, or Sleep Talk if you don't wanna have to deal with those Sleep inducing mons. It has an ice selection between two item choices, with Icy Rock to expand your Aurora Veil's time to get a chance to set up its Aurora Veil, and Life Orb just to let it get out as much damage as it can before dropping. Its EVs and nature are pretty simple, with the max Speed and Hasty nature to let it outspeed as much as possible, while still doing as much as possible with Blizzard and Explosion, respectively, with max Special Attack and the remaining 4 in Attack. There's probably a better spread, but this one does well enough and I was too lazy to do any calculations.

    Calculations (open)
    Didn't you read? I was too lazy to do any calculations.

    Replays (open)
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pubeta-615848441 (I don't care that I lost, it just shows Vanilluxe in action)
    (Also that loss was total hax)
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pubeta-615985859

    Disclaimer: This set was built without knowledge of Kay's team's set.

    Here's a fun game: try to find the 5 ice cream puns! :D (don't post here cuz Anty will probably delete your post and blame me)
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
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