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Metagame np: SM PU Stage 0 (Beta): Medieval [Vanilluxe and Tauros Banned]

Discussion in 'PU' started by galbia, Aug 6, 2017.

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  1. The Jungle Fox

    The Jungle Fox

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2015
    Messages:
    59
    Giving my thoughts about the whole "please quickban" thing.

    [​IMG]
    Okay. I think people overstimate this thing's potential. A lot. While I can't deny Gallade is a fearsome wallbreaker, its far from perfect and its not really unhealthy or broken, neither restricts teambuilding. For starters, Psychic-, Ghost- and Flying-types are pretty much a must in a meta with so many threatening Fighting types. The playstyle Gallade truly shines against is balance, since it gets more opportunities to switch in and do its job as a breaker. Versus more Offensive playstyles, Gallade fails to do a lot due its middling Physical bulk and average speed, only coming in on some resisted hits (although its resistances are Physically based, so it takes a ton even from them, for example, about ~50% from LO Chan's Drain Punch) to fire off hits. Versus stall, while it can do something, Quagsire and Pyukumuku both check it quite consistenly (ok there is a chance they get 2hkoed, but its not that big and they can Toxic it and recover stall), aswell as bulky Ghost types like Colbur Gourgeist-XL/Palossand, Sableye and bulky psychics like the aforementioned Musharna (we must remember that, while most people, me included, want it gone, its still here so we have to take it into account), bulky Beheeyem, etc. As I said, Balance is the playstyle it threatens the most, but even then they have checks such as all the ones I have mentioned for stall (and no, they're not solely used for checking Gallade) and more such as Colbur Harvest Exeggutor, Oricorio-Sensu, Haunter, AcroZard, etc (yes, those are mostly offensive checks but you don't need to have a hard stop on every team so that we can tell its not broken). Overall, I don't think this is neither as bad as people pretend it is and its manageable.


    [​IMG]

    This one might be a bit more controversial. This might be more personal experience but I feel like people underprepare for this thing, barely having Scarfers or strong priority (if they do, at all), and its a big reason to why people want it gone. Vivillon is super predictable, since pretty much 3/4 of its moves are always the same. While it is easy to support, we must not forget it wants hazard out of its field but also on the opponent's field, and while it has good synergy with most hazard removers, keeping the hazard game at your favour can prove to be quite difficult sometimes. Its rock weakness also means its not splashable, which is definitely a huge factor. The base 89 speed put it right below anothe premier QD Sweeper in Lilligant, and because of it, most scarfers rn are base 91+ to revenge it and the get the bonus on Vivillon. Offense gets troubled quite a bit for it but it isn't impossible to deal with, due priority mons like Kangaskhan, Piloswine and Lycanroc, revenge killers like Kadabra, Chatot, Oricorios and Pyroar and even some defensive answers like Assault Vest Lanturn, Klinklang, etc. The whole offensive pressure sometimes also makes it difficult for Vivillon to set up, and it often faces 50/50s when it has either to boost or put something to sleep. While it is true that these can be chipped, you need to play carefully not only around it, since other speed boosting sweepers also have quite the same matchup. Just like Gallade, this is a fearsome balance breaker, but again you have the same checks and even more defensive answers. The metagame has some checks to it but people hasn't adapted and want it gone. Don't ban it, at least not yet.


    [​IMG]

    I don't have much to say about this one. Its a super bulky wincon that can set up versus common attackers. I feel like people are mindlessly spamming Offense with fast not-so-powerful attackers and that's why they see Mush as such a pain. Musharna is not impossible to check defensively with Steel-types and things like Skuntank around. Its similar to Duosion, except its bulkier, can tank Knock Offs and its way more vulnerable to status. While the Fairium Z set has been hyped, it makes Musharna almost dead-weight through the battle since it really needs Leftovers to pivot around mid-game before it sets up (since Moonlight has few pp, it has to save it for when it boosts). You guys need to start using stronger wallbreakers so they can actually pressure it. While I don't think its healthy, we shouldn't just quickban it. Maybe a suspect test in a near future, but imo the meta is still too new to take such drastic decisions.
  2. Megazard

    Megazard Practically Useless
    is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

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    Ok I think some people really don't understand the tiering policy. There is going to be a thread very soon on PU's tiering philosophy, but until then read NU's tiering policy post that we're going to copy a lot from because we're using the same exact method. While I think we have far less stuff that needs immediate bans than NU/RU/UU, I think that removing Musharna, Vivillon, and Gallade first and resuspecting later is the best way to go about this. None are as threatening as Sawk or Typh or Malamar, but they're scary enough to be extreme presences in the metagame. They also have a significant enough effect on each other that the order in which they are removed/not removed/suspected/resuspected is important, and I think the best way to go about building a healthy meta is removing all three and then working out which one would be the most beneficial to respect later. So while none are exactly the ridiculous dominant forces that we've seen in other tiers using this method (NU Slurpuff, etc), under this philosophy that the council has chosen to use I think banning all 3 is the way to go.
    And yes we have floated the idea of abandoning this method for early tiering thanks to how unexpectedly sorta kinda balanced PU is, but it's still nice to shake out the kinks and I think a decent amount of the reluctance to ban stems from personally not having problems with something. I personally haven't found Vivillon overly threatening but I've still seen enough from other people and can grasp enough of the metagame to believe it has to go.
    eht, Haund, DEG and 14 others like this.
  3. Mango Smoothie

    Mango Smoothie

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2013
    Messages:
    298
    [​IMG]
    Lilligant @ Grassium Z
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Rock]
    - Sleep Powder
    - Quiver Dance
    I've been playing with Lilligant lately and to my surprise in spite of scarf scyther being everywhere its still a pretty reliable contributor. Z-Sleep Powder is the crux of this set, working much like Z-Lovely Kiss for Jynx, giving you +1 speed and sleeps an opponent, but unlike Jynx you can further boost your speed with QD on the following turn making revenging with scarfed mons harder to do. Another benefit of Grassium Z is that you also have a 140BP Bloom Doom up your sleeve which is a nice nuke to break through things like Gurrdur or a weakend AV Hariyama. Giga Drain helps you stay healthy and despite being kind of weak initially gets good mileage at +1 to keep Lilligant healthy in its sweep. I use HP Rock for coverage because the most common checks to Lilligant are bugs and fire-types, but you could go HP Fire if you want it to handle steel-types better.
    Now granted, its attacks are not overly potent and its not the fastest thing out there without a boost (gotta be at +2 to beat out Scarf Scyther but its got a good speed tier for the most part). This set appreciates teammates who can weaken steels and poison-types like Ferrosseed and Skuntank because it cannot touch them, and who also draw in slower/defensive pokemon that it can take advantage of like Lanturn or Golurk. I've been pairing it with Pyroar to draw in Rocks and Water-types, while Pyroar can handle steel and grass-types that trouble Lilligant.
    TJ and LordST like this.
  4. GeneralAnnoyance

    GeneralAnnoyance

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2014
    Messages:
    197
    SM Physical Normal/Flying Metagame Analysis: Exploring Trends and Common Misconceptions in the SM PU beta

    This post was inspired by a common theme I've been noticing as I've been playing ladder and in room tour matches. In this post I hope to address an important aspect of our metagame to increase knowledge of the PU beta and to improve each of your abilities when building so that you are able to address common threats once we are able to stabilize the meta with our inevitable bans. I will begin with addressing physical normal types and move onto our flying type abusers after. I've been noticing the trend that players are using common walls and ghost types are their normal/flying checks in PU. This is a very common misconception in the community right now and it's something that I think is important to address. Ghosts (with sableye being a special case due to its ability to take neutral when hit with dark coverage) and walls like quag, weezing, palossand, musharna are not reliable normal checks in our metagame.

    Our Main Abusers: [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG]

    Brief Overview (open)
    In this list alone, we have many difficult to check mons due to their immediate speed, power, and priority. I'm only going to address the immediately pressing mons as I want to keep this brief as possible. Each of these find difficulty vs different playstyles but I will try to summarize what each is trying to do before we dive into how you need to be addressing them.

    Banded Stoutland is one of the best mons on this list and there is good reason for that. In ORAS this mon was an absolute monster and a lot of what it had going for it is carried over into SM. Sableye specifically is a huge reason to run stout (as burned facade a huge problem for your opp) but it also does a very good job of punching holes in balance teams that rely on walls such as weezing, palossand, quag/gastro as their physically defensive answer to the metagame. Overall I think this mon is criminally underrated in PU right now and is a top tier threat at punishing the lack of normal resist builds.

    Tauros functions as a very solid late game sweeper and revenge killer on offensive builds that value coverage and speed over the wallbreaking power of some of its competition. When using Tauros you will find that very few mons outspeed you and often you can abuse your opps priority mons/scarfers with proper partnering. What tauros struggles with ghosts it more than makes up for with its coverage and ability to switch up its moves while still hitting hard.

    Zangoose is the last normal mon I'd like to discuss as this thing is definitely something to discourage balance/stall playstyles. Uturn or Volt/turn into zangoose is one of the more effective playstyles in the meta at the moment. With access to Swords Dance, Knock off, Quick Attack, and Close Combat there is very little in the meta that can even handle switching into this mon. The most common set I've been seeing is SD, Facade, QA, Knock off but AoA with CC is also a very viable option at luring rocks and steels in on you. Because Zangoose pairs so well with scyther, AoA is definitely a feasible choice when deciding if you value removing resists for scyther over sweeping with your zangoose off the SD.

    Scyther/Ninjask: Scyther is without a doubt one of the best mons in the metagame. Bug/Flying hits almost everything. It's capable of 3 or 4 different sets that do completely different things and it has the bulk even without eviolite to survive non-fighting type priority. Ninjask on the other hand can serve a lot of the same roles as scyther but has the ability to use SD+speed boost+z-dig to it's advantage to break your rock/steel that you had in the back for it. Both are very dominant in the metagame at the moment that other flying types like SD jumpluff of ORAS seem irrelevant in comparison.


    Metagame trends: As we all have come to see, PU is very fighting type dominant right now. We have many viable fightings that all have different checks and counters in the tier. This has led many users to negotiate their normal resists for ghosts that are used to discourage the use of fighting moves. This is partly due to the fact that the majority of PUs wallbreakers and rockers are fighting weak so people assume that running a ghost will be a good substitute to handle normals all the while trying to limit stacking fighting weaknesses. This is a misconception and as I've used Stoutland on ladder it became all the more evident that this trend should be addressed.

    In the next portion I have distributed mons into tiers for switching into normal/flying physical threats. Tier 1 is defined as mons that can either reliably and consistently check most normal/flying types or mons that offer considerable longevity all while remaining viable in the current metagame. Tier 2 is defined as mons that are able to check some of the normal/flying abusers but suffer either due to lack of bulk when compared to Tier 1 or a considerable weakness that can be expoited with coverage. Tier 3 is defined as viable off-meta picks, picks that take neutral damage or don't as reliably check normal/flying types, or picks that can perform some of the roles as thouse above them but are less efficient in terms of meta viability. Tier 4 is defined as niche picks when compared to their higher tier counterparts. They are able to serve a team as a normal/flying resist but often those in higher tiers do a better job in that role. Keep in mind that this list isn't perfect but I do feel as though it is accurate in regards to our current meta and the options we have.
    Tier 1 Options:[​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Tier 2 Options: [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Tier 3 Options:[​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Tier 4 Options:[​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    Brief Overview (open)
    In this section I will be addressing some of the mons listed above and what you can gain/expect from using them.

    Carracosta: Carracosta is on top of the list for its ability to run both a defensive and offensive build that checks normal/flying types. It has the bulk and the ability needed to mitigate its fighting/ground weakness and it can provide rocks or an immediate offensive presence in the case of Shell Smash Costa.

    Bronzor: Bronzor is here due to the fact that it offers a lot for balanced play while checking stoutland, tauros, and some kangaskhan sets. It serves as a ground immunity which is unique among most of its competition and it has versatility in checking more than just physical threats such as special ice/psychic attackers as well.

    Klinklang: This mon is on the cusp of being a Tier 1 resist but I find what holds it back is it's lack of hp and ability to reliably check many of the common normals. Tauros, Kang, and Goose all can switch coverage on it so it's unable to check them without team support as well. That being said, Klink is a huge scyther deterrent and that is a huge draw to the mon as it can find opportunities to boost on locked stoutland or scyther.

    Golem: Still good from ORAS, Golem as a lot more things that want to switch into it this gen but it offers great role compression with its dual typing and sturdy gives you reliable rocks if you so desire. Priority sucker punch allows it to not be completely helpless against normals with coverage making this one of the only reliable resists outside of Costa with priority.

    Aggron: Aggron boasts some incredible bulk but it's weaknesses mixed with how cruel the current fighting meta is keeps it from being the best option to check normal/flyings right now. However, aggron is one of the few mons that has huge implications to a 50/50s gone wrong on bando stoutland. Rock polish or Head Smash on the missed stoutland play is an instant punish to most any opp.

    Barbaracle: Similar to Costa but lacks the set diversity, bulk, and ability to make it a Tier 1 resist. Smash potency does keep it as a very reliable resist that can instantly punish you opponent and threaten a sweep.


    So there you have it. We have a bunch of reliable mons in the tier to promote intelligent and complex building. You shouldn't be running ghosts as your normal resists and you should instead be considering how can you check the above abusers while still keeping with your team composition. Remember, limit your fighting weaknesses to 2 per team, run a normal/flying resist on most every team, and lastly prepare for these mons with bulky offense or speed building. Mons like zangoose are not easy to check in the slightest so keep with an offensive playstyle that doesn't render you crippled if you lose one of the above resists. Happy building and thanks for reading.
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
    Ares, Yoshizilla315, Teddeh and 26 others like this.
  5. Hobie

    Hobie

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2017
    Messages:
    2
    Hey guys,
    I'm new to PU and am have heard a bit about weather teams (and the death of Aurora Veil), and was wondering if there are any viable weather teams. The only thing that comes to mind is Beartic + Vanilluxe/Abomasnow, but seeing the response to Marrrrrrrrrrs post that doesn't seem to be the case. I've always wanted to find a format where Hail is a good strat, and am hoping you guys could shine some light on this.
    EasyPickings, iRebel and TJ like this.
  6. TJ

    TJ :thinking:
    is a Tiering Contributor

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    Jun 29, 2016
    Messages:
    521
    Hey Welcome, I would say Hail or Aurora Veil as a playstyle is still somewhat viable, but not as effective as it was in Alpha when we had Aurorus, Sandslash-Alola and Malamar in the tier. People have been getting creative with Pokemon such as Jynx and Sandshrew-Alola for Aurora Veil users and Vanilluxe or Abomasnow for Hail setters. As for Auroa Veil abusers, I would imagine things like Lilligant, Turtonator, and Barbaracle still work. I know Sir Kay has had some success on the ladder and in room tours since the tier shift with Aurora Veil, so honestly give it a go and see how it does in practice.
    EasyPickings and drumstick like this.
  7. galbia

    galbia be the freak you want to see just don't follow me
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Global Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnus
    PU Co-Leader

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    SergioRules, Taskr, tenkai and 6 others like this.
  8. Broken Phobias

    Broken Phobias

    Joined:
    May 25, 2015
    Messages:
    466
    Word Of The Day: Phazer

    One of the common and upsetting things I'm seeing on ladder is the fact that there are so many set up sweepers on the ladder. People are beginning to complain about how little answers to these Pokemon there are. I feel that people are over looking a common type of utility Pokemon that is essential for taking care of set up Pokemon so for now I just thought I would remind some of you new players on what a Phazer, a pseudo-hazer, or Shuffler.

    Phazer / Pseudo-hazer / Shuffler
    A Pokemon who uses moves that may force the opponent to switch, such as Roar, Whirlwind, Perish Song, and Yawn.

    Examples: Common vaible Phazers in the PU tier include Weezing, Politoed, Granbull, Silvally, etc.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Sets For Examples (open)

    Weezing (Weezing) @ Icium Z
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Haze

    Politoed @ Leftovers
    Ability: Water Absorb
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
    Modest Nature
    - Scald
    - Ice Beam
    - Hidden Power Electric
    - Haze

    Granbull @ Leftovers
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
    Impish Nature
    - Play Rough
    - Earthquake
    - Heal Bell
    - Roar

    Silvally-Fairy @ Fairy Memory
    Ability: RKS System
    Happiness: 0
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Multi-Attack
    - Frustration
    - Roar
    - Parting Shot

    Please note that Silvally can fluctuate to whatever type you need it to be. Also its moves are interchangeable to give you the right amount of coverage.


    Hopefully this will help more of you deal with the overwhelming amount of Set-up Sweepers in the tier!
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
    Khaytra, Axia, Aaronboyer and 4 others like this.
  9. Taskr

    Taskr

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2015
    Messages:
    251
    I want to go over some mons that I feel are kinda overlooked or not seen too much at the moment in the meta and show how well they can work.

    [​IMG]

    I want to start Lurantis first off, this mon is actually really good at it's role of defogging. Lurantis beats a lot of the notable rockers such as Regirock, Golurk, Carracosta, Golem and Prinplup for example, allowing you to keep Stealth Rock off your side of the field reliably. Another good trait this mon possesses is it's ability to run through bulkier teams due to it's Contrary ability in conjunction with Leaf Storm, this allows it to build up momentum and often muscle past bulkier threats. Ultimately Lurantis' flexibility makes it a very underrated choice, it can run HP Fire to deal with other Grass types such as Ferroseed, HP Ground if your team is weak to certain Fire types and Aromatherapy to act as a cleric for the team. Not to mention it can run both Physically and Specially Defensive spreads. Some good partners to this mon are Rock weak Pokemon like Charizard and Scyther. These pokemon love Lurantis' ability to defog but also Lurantis is able to come in on stuff like Aqua Jet or Accelerock and with good bulk it can even check things like Barbaracle.

    Calcs (open)

    +2 252+ Atk Barbaracle Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Lurantis: 238-282 (69.3 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Lurantis: 286-339 (83.3 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252+ Atk Golurk Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Lurantis: 136-160 (39.6 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252+ Atk Regirock Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Lurantis: 117-138 (34.1 - 40.2%) -- 36.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery



    [​IMG]

    The second Pokemon I'd like to mention is Samurott. I've been using the LO Special set and this thing is a really nice wallbreaker with a lot of power and good coverage which can break most teams lacking Lanturn. Hydro Pump hits extremely hard even having the chance to 2HKO Audino after Rocks, Ice Beam and Grass Knot/HP Grass allows it to hit opposing Grass/Water types respectively and HP Fire can also be ran for Ferroseed specifically. Aqua Jet is nice priority for checking a lot of stuff such as DD Zard/Pyroar etc or you can go for a fully Physically attacking SD set allowing it to bypass it's counters like Lanturn and even sweep with Aqua Jet. However due this pokemon's low Speed it can sometimes be easily checked, support Thunder Wave mons and Sticky Webs is nice as it allows Samurott to outspeed Pokemon that would normally check it. SD Samurott also really likes Spikes support to help it sweep so partners such as Ferroseed and Roselia are good at providing that whilst offering their Grass and Electric resists.

    Calcs (open)

    +2 252+ Atk Samurott Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lanturn: 371-437 (94.8 - 111.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 143-169 (47 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 112 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 224-265 (76.9 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 179-212 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- 68% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery



    [​IMG]

    Roselia is the last mon I'm going to talk about because I feel like it's a really good spiker is this offensive metagame. Now that Qwilfish has left there really isn't a lot of options for offensive Spikers and that's where Roselia comes in. Roselia can pressure a lot of common things in the metagame such as Quagsire, Gastrodon and Lanturn. Max SpA Leaf Storm hits very hard and STAB Sludge Bomb is also really nice against teams lacking good resists such as Fire and other Grass types. The lack of people using Muk in this meta also helps it as that was one of the best counters in ORAS and poison types aren't too commonly seen in SM. So why use this over Ferroseed? Offensive Presence is one factor but also Defensively Roselia can check a lot of stuff that Ferroseed can't, Electric types like Manectric can be dealt with a lot easier same with Lilligant as Rose isn't 4x weak to HP Fire and can revenge kill with Sludge Bomb.

    Calcs (open)

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Lilligant Hidden Power Fire vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Roselia: 182-216 (72.5 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252 SpA Manectric Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 94-112 (30.9 - 36.8%) -- 69.2% chance to 3HKO

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Lilligant Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 127-151 (41.7 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    EasyPickings, Ares, 2xTheTap and 24 others like this.
  10. Broken Phobias

    Broken Phobias

    Joined:
    May 25, 2015
    Messages:
    466
    PU Beta Work Shop #3

    A showdown user named Lakeredman Hosted, and yours truly joined him as the Cohost in today's building of a Bulky Offense team Centered around Swords Dance Leafeon!

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Description (open)

    In the Workshop today the PU team decided on a Bulky Offense building staring the ORAS favorite Swords Dance Leafeon. Leafeon is able to set up with Swords Dance and lure in Charizard, which the team is very weak to. Regirock is the teams rocker and flying resist. It can also function as a great way to cripple offensive threats with Thunder-Wave. Granbull is the teams Cleric using Z-Heal Bell to restore its own HP and remove status from your team. Granbull is also able to check Gallade and other troublesome fighting types. Oricorio Pom-pom is our Vivillion Check as well as our Ground-type immunity. Skuntank is the teams hazard removal as well as our Musharna check aside from Toxic on Granbull. Choice Scarf Primeape is our scarfer that is able to take advantage of enemy Defog users with its ability Defiant.


    Importable (open)

    Leafeon @ Micle Berry
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Leaf Blade
    - Natural Gift
    - Synthesis

    Regirock @ Leftovers
    Ability: Clear Body
    EVs: 252 HP / 184 Atk / 16 Def / 56 SpD
    Impish Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Stone Edge
    - Thunder Wave
    - Earthquake

    Granbull @ Normalium Z
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
    Impish Nature
    - Play Rough
    - Earthquake
    - Heal Bell
    - Toxic

    Oricorio-Pom-Pom @ Safety Goggles
    Ability: Dancer
    EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Calm Mind
    - Roost
    - Revelation Dance
    - Hurricane

    Skuntank @ Black Sludge
    Ability: Aftermath
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Dark Pulse
    - Fire Blast
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Defog

    Primeape @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Defiant
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Close Combat
    - U-turn
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge


    Work Shop Logs (open)

    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  11. HJAD

    HJAD
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2013
    Messages:
    936
    hey so after playing PU with the beta dropping, i've found a few pokemon that have stood out to me particularly as underrated. I think that, with all the really bad gimmicks going around, that people take everyones "innovations" with a grain of salt (including mine). The truely good ones won't be forgotten by the end of next week, thats the true test of a quality set.
    [​IMG]
    Abomasnow

    set (open)


    Abomasnow @ Grassium Z
    Ability: Snow Warning
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Wood Hammer
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Shard



    Abomasnow is one of "those" pokemon where u dont really know what its gonna do when it comes in. Specs sets, Life orb mixed sets, and physical SD sets are all viable with this pokemon in particular, and the pokemons you use to switchin (bar like bronzor) differ dramatically depending on the set. In my opinion, this set makes the greatest use out of the new z move mechanics brought into SM, a swords dance set. Previously in ORAS, Abomasnow in NU had huge issues in terms of its appeal because the only real set that saw usage was a special set with either life orb or specs. Swords Dance sets were wayyyy too weak for the amount of offensive pressure you needed to get a swords dance off. Wood hammer usually reduced it to easy revenge killing HP and seed bomb was wayy too weak. So, what SM provides is possibly the perfect outlet for abomasnow to get passed its counters. Grassium Z Wood Hammer allows Abomasnow a 1 time only nuke, with 0 hp lost as a residual. Company this with the mindgames between a specs / special abomasnow, you can easily find settup fodder on seemingly counters such as gourgeist-super. Needless to say, if your switching in gourgeist-super in on an abomasnow, the outcomes can be devastating. Other things that work in abomasnows favour is its speed tier, stab priority and typing. Versus balance, it seldom doesnt find an oppurtuinity to settup thanks to its grass typing. Its offensive threat alone can force switches and as a result punishes opposing balance teams, with the common balance archetypes folding to abomasnow completely should they not use bronzor, (which can be abused by stuff like skuntank, absol with pursuit).
    For me, what makes abomasnow so great is its gallade-esque ability to force wrong switches, out of no fault of the opponent. If you switch in hariyama, and you get blown back by grassium-z wood hammer, thats no fault of your own considering how powerful a special abomasnow set is vs common balance archetypes. It does this in a very similar way to gallade which can force for example, a granbull switch, and blow it away with Shattered Psyche Zen Headbutt. This set picks and chooses its counters like only the top tier threats in the tier can.

    [​IMG]
    Kadabra

    set (open)


    Kadabra @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Magic Guard
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Psychic
    - Dazzling Gleam
    - Taunt / Shadow Ball
    - Counter



    Kadabra surely has to be one of the most underrated pokemons in SM. The very nature of SM with Z-Moves playing havoc with balance and stall archetypes, it leaves to question why kadabra hasn't seen more usage. Yes, the pokemon doesn't break teams in half like how seemingly every other pokemon does. What it does though is play a very solid role vs offense teams which is often underappreciated in this meta from what i've found. Counter allows you to have a 1 time only, save me daddy moment with the guranteed sash that could potentially bail you out of a barbaracle sweep, carracosta sweep or whatever daunting situation you are taking on. Kadabra does this job excellently whilst also giving that fantastic speed and special attack stat to boost. I feel like this Pokemon, and its capability vs hyper offensive teams which can dictate offensive pressure very easily, can provide a really important role to balance teams that potentially feel like they would be easily overwhelmed by the likes of barbaracle. Its no secret that Z-Moves bone every balance team in existence if used properly, so maybe its time to prep for those teams, as well as use your own Z-Move balance breaker. That way you have the 2 main archetypes; and suitable counterplay for both.
    Kadabra doesn't seemingly give much from the teambuilder that another psychic type might, but in terms of your matchup vs team archetypes as a whole, kadabra adds something that I feel like so many other pokemon can't provide.

    tl;dr, abomasnow causes 5050s like gallade is therefore a huge overlooked threat, and kadabra w/ sash counter is awesome when playing against offense and u have z-moves for balance so like, use it more :toast:
    Good J, Eternally, tenkai and 25 others like this.
  12. Skankovich

    Skankovich

    Joined:
    May 31, 2014
    Messages:
    390
    This really isn't my experience at all, I played with screens before and after beta and it works just as well if not better than aveil. I'm not really sure how the counter play to meowstic is to just kill it, you set up the relevant screen to resist whatever mon you're in on and you'll never be killed before you can set both up- literally what can 1hko meow through screens? Like:

    252+ Atk Hustle Raticate-Alola Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Meowstic-M through Reflect: 247-292 (70.1 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    This is probably the strongest super effective move in the tier and it's not 1hko'ing. Not only that but Meow inherently doesn't have the pressure to set up within limited hail turns that means Sandshrew has to set up against mons it would rather not do in the first place (this whole flexibility makes teams with meow/screens far less one dimensional). With that Sandshrew doesn't pressure common defoggers in the slightest with its base 75 attack and lack of taunt, while Meowstic is able to at least Yawn the non-dark defoggers we have. And then even if it does get screens up it's doing it once per game, while meow gets them up multiple times easily which improves the teams matchup against fatter playstyles where you likely have to break certain mons before one sweeps through.

    The team you posted could easily replace sandshrew with meow and then it would have space for a rocker over vanilluxe to make it a little more well rounded and work in the exact same way, I just don't think A Veil is worth it right now when you have to essentially dedicate 2 slots to it when you get the exact same thing in one with Meow or Electrode.
    tenkai, 2xTheTap, Many and 1 other person like this.
  13. Twix

    Twix chill out
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2014
    Messages:
    1,093
    Just want to talk about some underrated/cool mons in the meta that I've been playing around with recently:

    [​IMG]
    i am GOOD (Combusken) @ Fightinium Z
    Ability: Speed Boost
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Fire Blast
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power [Grass] / Hidden Power [Electric]
    - Protect

    So after testing all day looking for some cool and underrated mons, I came across Combusken. Now, looking at its stats, it seems to have an average Special Attacking stat and pretty terrible Speed; however, in testing it is much more effective. Combusken can easily break through offensive builds with its STAB moves, especially since Fightinium Z does a lot of damage to any Pokemon trying to challenge it. Hidden Power Grass allows it to hit Gastrodon and Quagsire much easier, and Hidden Power Electric allows it to beat Swanna 1v1. Additionally, Combusken is one of the only Fighting-types in the tier to have a good matchup against Sableye and Gourgeist while at the same time being able to take on Rock-type threats such as Golem. Paired with Spikes, Combusken is a really effective cleaner.

    calcs (open)

    252 SpA Combusken All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Regirock: 440-518 (120.8 - 142.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Combusken All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 372-438 (90.7 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Combusken Hidden Power Electric vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Swanna: 288-340 (98.9 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Combusken Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 338-402 (90.3 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Combusken All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 470-554 (116.3 - 137.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Combusken Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Granbull: 204-241 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


    [​IMG]
    mudsdon (Mudsdale) @ Choice Band
    Ability: Stamina
    EVs: 132 HP / 252 Atk / 124 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Facade / Toxic / Rock Slide
    - Heavy Slam
    - Close Combat

    At first, I was apprehensive of using Banded Mudsdale because it seemed like a waste due to its pretty abysmal Speed. However, the raw power behind this monster is gigantic, easily breaking through defensive walls and forcing opposing teams to sacrifice one of their Pokemon to its attacks. Mudsdale also checks basically every Electric- and Rock-type in the tier with its typing and movepool, and can break through Steel-types insanely easily. Of course, it is threatened by Sableye and Gourgeist, but it is still extremely effective as a physical wallbreaker and deserves more use.

    [​IMG]
    Simisage @ Life Orb
    Ability: Overgrow
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    Hasty Nature
    - Leaf Storm
    - Superpower
    - Knock Off
    - Rock Slide

    Simisage is a cool Pokemon that I've been testing which has been overshadowed by the likes of Shiftry and Lilligant as offensive Grass-types. However, Simisage carves out a niche for itself in being the only Grass-type that can outspeed and KO a Charizard, while at the same time having extreme power with the combination of Leaf Storm, Superpower and Knock Off. Through my testing, the set has been very effective in taking out walls through its variety in coverage.

    [​IMG]
    Vanilluxe @ Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
    Ability: Snow Warning
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Blizzard
    - Freeze-Dry
    - Flash Cannon
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    So Vanilluxe is actually insane in this meta due to its 110 Special Attack stat, Snow Warning, and usable 79 Speed. It can stay in all day and click Blizzard, while being able to take on bulky Water-types with Freeze Dry. Flash Cannon is on the set for the sole purpose of hitting Piloswine, and Hidden Power Fire helps hit Steel-types such as Ferroseed. Vanilluxe is able to break huge chunks into opposing teams solely because of its raw power and ability to spam Blizzard.

    [​IMG]
    Lanturn @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Volt Absorb
    EVs: 176 HP / 252 SpA / 80 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Thunderbolt
    - Volt Switch
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam

    Choice Specs Lanturn is a personal favorite of mine just because nobody expects it and ends up sacrificing one of their valuable walls. Most people expect Lanturn to be passive and weak, and they might even try to set up against it. Specs Lanturn dishes out heavy damage against opposing Pokemon, and can surprise Grass-types like Torterra and Lilligant. Specs Volt Switch is also really strong and effective towards pivoting as it does much more damage and can put an opponent in KO range. Hydro Pump hits like a truck and the set is fairly effective as a whole.

    [​IMG]
    Also I can support HJAD 's claim about Kadabra, I've been using it as well and it has been really effective as a revenge killer and Psychic-type which holds its own in a tier completely overrun with Fighting-types. Instead of running Taunt or Shadow Ball I personally prefer using Thunder Wave (when it doesn't miss) because it has the ability to stop a sweeper in its track and allow for the rest of the team to manage it.
    ShuckleDeath, galbia, eht and 13 others like this.
  14. Teddeh

    Teddeh This aint a scene it's a... GOD DAMNED ARMS RACE
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,094
    Hi everyone! I spoke a fair bit about my opinions on discord, but I thought I would add them here too :toast:

    So as far as quick bans go, can we stop asking for them? I trust whoever will be on council will have good judgement on deciding what needs to go and what does. But as far as pokemon that are prime contenders, the only thing I see is Gallade being broken. From movepool, coverage, versatility and power, it's sure enough the hardest thing to prep for in the tier whilst also being the easiest thing to use. I think it's too good personally and needs to go.
    With that being said the tiering philosophy that's being put into place, anything marginally broken will be looked at, but in my opinion there aren't many things that are "too good" for PU, more of a case of the tier has so many setup sweepers that it's impossible to prepare for every set on every pokemon, especially with z-moves considered. So potentially it'd be a case of ban the most potent setup sweepers such as musharna, absol and vivillion, perhaps even samurott, but at the same time no one pokemon here is broken in their own right.

    Nevertheless, some of my favorite sets so far are as follows:

    [​IMG]
    Gallade @ Leftovers
    Ability: Justified
    EVs: 248 HP / 16 Atk / 68 SpD / 176 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Bulk Up
    - Substitute
    - Drain Punch
    - Knock Off

    Before it gets banned, this set is probably the most annoying pos to play against and has 6-0'd many a team, particularly because it has just amazing bulk, low hp and huge power. Try it out before gallade gets banned n__n

    [​IMG]
    Skuntank @ Choice Band
    Ability: Aftermath
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Crunch
    - Poison Jab
    - Pursuit
    - Sucker Punch

    Poison / dark coverage is really good at the moment, and with CB, nothing wants to take the hit from skunk. The majority of teams are running fairies to deal with gallade and absol, so having the poison stab to bop any fairies is perfect. This was a set during ORAS NU, but I feel it's more than viable at the moment here.

    [​IMG]
    Samurott @ Lum Berry
    Ability: Torrent
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Megahorn
    - Swords Dance
    - Aqua Jet
    - Waterfall

    Surprised no one has really posted about SD samurott, I know Taskr gave a lot of love towards the special life orb set, but in my opinion, the SD set is by far the most threatening sweeper in the tier with the least solid counter play. Combine it with hazards / healing wish support, it can win games very easily on its own, I highly suggest you try this pokemon out for yourselves.
  15. PenguinAssault

    PenguinAssault

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2017
    Messages:
    30
    ABSOL

    [​IMG]

    Hey guys! I'll go into more detail on Sticky Webs as a playstyle further into beta, but I wanted to talk about a pokemon I've been using that has worked extremely well for me! With the drop of Absol from NU into PU, we gained for ourselves a mono-dark physical attacker that has a pretty devastatingly large attack stat in 130, where before we only had things like Liepard and Skuntank, which are generally more so used as Utility/Support. Now, with Absol in the tier, I think he shines even more as a pokemon when paired with the playstyle of Sticky Webs, as he falls at 75 speed and just under threats such as Kabutops, Hitmonchan, Shiftry, Gallade and Stoutland to name a few, and with the speed drop from Sticky Web, is able to reliably take out threats that would normally outspeed it.


    [​IMG]
    ABSOL

    Stats (open)

    [​IMG]

    Even more so than Zangoose I feel Absol stands as one of this tier's top contenders of abusing webs. While it is true that Absol is weak to the common type of Fighting in PU, I believe that with the right team composition you can rely on Absol to wreak havoc on anything that doesn't have a Fairy typing due to its many coverage options on top of already strong STAB options. Having Sucker Punch, Pursuit, and Knock Off are pretty nice stab options, as well as coverage in Superpower, Play Rough, and Iron Tail. One more thing that I think is super niche about Absol, is that he can't be T-wave'd from Liepard or WoW'd from Sableye thanks to the Prankster nerf, and this helps Absol tremendously as it's one of a few mons that can single handedly shut down Sableye. Finally, paired with Sticky Webs, and Adamant Absol is able to outspeed everything in the tier except Electrode, as well as some Bug/Flying mons that rise above 75 Speed, such as Ninjask, Scyther and Charizard. Here are some sets that I think Absol excels with:​


    Absol Sets (open)

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    SETS:​
    1. Absol @ Life Orb / Fairium Z​
    2. Ability: Justified​
    3. EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe​
    4. Adamant Nature​
    5. - Sucker Punch​
    6. - Knock Off​
    7. - Play Rough / Iron Tail / Substitute​
    8. - Swords Dance​

    Absol @ Life Orb
    Ability: Justified
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Sucker Punch
    - Knock Off
    - Play Rough/Iron Tail/Superpower
    - Pursuit



    As you can see, Absol has beyond pletiful options going for him, and it's really just which one personally suits your team. My favorite set right now is the Fairium Z Sucker Punch/Knock Off/Swords Dance/Play Rough as it-- in my opinion--offers superior late game cleaning power and potency paired with or without webs. Overall, I think Absol is not only healthy for this metagame in PU but also downright strong. He's not too overpowered, but he is definitely on the forefront of our most powerful Dark's and I think that with threats like Gallade, Gurdurr, Hariyama, and Musharna here, Absol can not only lure but also destroy them with this set. Here's some calcs to prove how potent Absol can be:
    Calcs (open)

    FAIRIUM Z CALCS:

    +2 252+ Atk Absol Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 306-360 (81.8 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Can't KO against Gurdurr with normal Play Rough at +2)
    +2 252+ Atk Absol Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 592-698 (158.2 - 186.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Can KO with Twinkle Tackle)

    Another big difference between using Fairium Z Absol and non Fairum Z Absol is Hariyama:

    252+ Atk Absol Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hariyama: 324-382 (75.5 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Play Rough barely misses KO after Rocks)
    252+ Atk Absol Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hariyama: 628-740 (146.3 - 172.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Overkill TBH)
    Other Calcs:
    +2 252+ Atk Absol Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 558-656 (128.8 - 151.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Absol Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gallade: 306-360 (110.4 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Absol Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lanturn: 390-459 (99.7 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 278-329 (93.6 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Floatzel: 265-312 (85.2 - 100.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    CHECKS, COUNTERS & TEAMMATES
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Absol is definitely not without flaws, even if you put him on a webs team where I think he shines the best. The pitiful bulk of 60/60 does not help it's longevity as a late game cleaner, and it's mono dark typing can be it's own worst weakness due to all of the viable fighting type mons in the tier. However, here are some of Absol's best Checks and Teammates.

    Checks and Counters (open)

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Ahhh, Absol. As PursuitOfHappiny put it, Absol doesn't really have any "true" counters outside maybe Granbull and Mawile here, and I couldn't agree more. I'm going to briefly go into each one of these though.
    Granbull is quite possibly one of Absol's best counters in the PU metagame, as the Intimidate it brings with it as well as the ferocious attack stat melts Absol, however if Absol is carrying Iron Tail, a +1 Iron Tail OHKOs Granbull, so even then Granbull can't counter it fully. Ferroseed is also a nice check, but it gets cripped by knock off and then if Absol is carrying Superpower, get's 2HKO'd (but usually can kill Absol after with Protect + Leech Seed + Gyro Ball). Weezing is a nice check, as it has monstrous defense and can pack Haze as a way to shut down Absol's boost, and Slude Bomb 2HKO's, as well as being able to Will-o-Wisp Absol. Mime is on this list as it is usually Scarfed, and can OHKO with Dazzling Gleam, but it doesn't appreciate switching into a Knock Off or a Iron Tail at all. Tauros is the same way as it can revenge kill Absol with a scarf, but it doesn't take any of Absol's attacks well at all, and get's OHKO'd by Superpower. Mawile might be the only real true counter, as it's ability to wall all of Absol's attacks and OHKO Absol with Play Rough helps it a ton. Finally, while Hitmonchan get's decimated by a Twinkle Tackle, it stands out as being able to OHKO with Mach Punch alone (if it's carrying Life Orb).



    Absol doesn't need much to survive in life. It's quite like humans...It needs Water, Food, and a Psychic/Dark/Fighting core to lead a healthy and happy lifestyle. While Absol doesn't necessarily need this core, I believe that it helps a ton for Absol's overall survivability as well as pivoting once you are weakened. Mons such as Musharna, Beheyeem and Mr. Mime stand out as nice opposing Fighting breakers, and fighting type pokemon like Gallade/Gurdurr/Hitmonchan/Hariyama help to deal with opposing Darks as well as Steels and Rocks that Absol can't always break through. For webs specifically, I would like to point out that Primeape is a great partner as it's Choice Banded Close Combat hits like a truck, and it has the added niche of Defiant in case they blow your webs away....just be careful of Swanna. Finally, Ghost types help to absorb the fighting weakness, and Leavanny is here to add sticky webs to the mix, making Absol a volatile Sticky Web Abuser
    TEAMWORK MAKES THE DREAM WORK

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG]


    [​IMG]
    FINAL THOUGHTS
    Absol stands out as one of PU's top late game cleaners due to it's STAB Priority, as well as a fantastic wallbreaker. The few checks and counters it does have cannot switch into Absol's amazing coverage moves, and the unpredictability helps it to remain a top tier threat. Absol's mono-dark typing and speed are it's main weaknesses, but it remedies this by centering a Psychic/Dark/Fighting core around it, as well as utilizing it in playstyles such as Webs that allow it to outspeed many of it's previous enemies. Due to all of these factors, I believe that Absol is not only strong, but also versatile and will stand as hopefully a long running staple of wallbreaking prowess.
    [​IMG]
    Thanks for reading!

    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
    Axia, eht, Earlio and 4 others like this.
  16. TONE

    TONE Get your bitch a cannon. Bitches love cannons.
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2013
    Messages:
    1,183
    [​IMG]
    Torterra @ Grassium Z
    Ability: Overgrow
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Rock Polish
    - Earthquake
    - Wood Hammer

    So this is a cool set that can function either as a early game wallbreaker or a late-game sweeper. Get Torterra in on something it can force out like Mudsdale, Gastrodon, etc, then either SD to break past bulkier teams whereas Rock Polish sweeps faster, frailer teams in the late-game. Albeit this set gives up Stone Edge so stuff like Scyther becomes more problematic and priority from Piloswine still hurts, however this set still puts in a lot of work against unprepared teams. Jolly Nature to outspeed stuff like Jolly Golurk and below, but if you want the added power, a spread of 116 HP / 252 Atk / 140 Spe with an Adamant nature is fine as it allows Torterra to outspeed Zebstrika at +2 Speed.

    [​IMG]
    Rotom-Frost @ Choice Specs / Icium Z
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Blizzard
    - Volt Switch
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Grass] / Trick

    I forgot to mention this set which capitalizes on the slower teams that tend to be running around in the meta. Rotom-Frost has been seldom used these days mainly due to the prominence of Lanturn, Piloswine, and bulkier Pokemon that don't mind Bolt-Beam coverage such as AV Hariyama. Specs provide Rotom-Frost with the added boost in power it needs to break past bulkier teams whereas Icium Z-Blizzard provide a powerful Subzero Slammer when you don't wanna risk Blizzard's accuracy. The last moveslot is interchangeable, but HP Grass is Rotom-Frost's best way to deal damage to Lanturn while also having a good chance to 2HKO Piloswine after Stealth Rock, whereas Trick cripples slower setup sweepers such as non Z-crystal Musharna and prevent it from using Rotom-Frost as setup fodder. Scarf is still an option, however it is pretty underwhelming this gen with the meta not only relying on mons like Lanturn and Piloswine and at some times Camerupt as Electric-type checks, but the prominence of faster scarfers such as Primeape which can easily force out Rotom-Frost with CC whereas setup mons such as Shift Gear Klinklang can take advantage of it locked into Blizzard.
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
    eht, Ares, Specs Jigglypuff and 15 others like this.
  17. Fragmented

    Fragmented

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2014
    Messages:
    19
    [​IMG]
    Glaceon @ Normalium Z
    Ability: Snow Cloak
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Celebrate
    - Ice Beam
    - Shadow Ball
    - Hidden Power Fighting / Hidden Power Ground

    Hey, I'm sort of new to PU and just wanted to contribute a set I found that was really fun and effective to play with. Much like its counterparts in higher tiers (e.g. Vaporeon), Z-Celebrate Glaceon can sweep late game (after killing the opponent's waters and fires), and for some reason few people expect it. Ice Beam for STAB, Shadow Ball for all the Psychic types running around and Hidden Power of choice as coverage, with Ground hitting both steels and fires while Fighting hitting steels as well as bulky normal types harder. This thing is hard to revenge kill from full, as at +1 Def, it can tank a lot of priority moves, and proceed to knock them out afterwards. Though this set does require hazard support and removal for it to function effectively, if played right, it can dent holes in teams or clean up.

    wall of calcs (open)

    At +1 Def:
    252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Hitmonchan Mach Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Glaceon: 120-143 (44.2 - 52.7%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO
    252+ Atk Guts Hariyama Fake Out vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Glaceon: 42-50 (15.4 - 18.4%) -- possible 6HKO
    252+ Atk Guts Hariyama Bullet Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Glaceon: 84-100 (30.9 - 36.9%) -- 72.2% chance to 3HKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Lycanroc Accelerock vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Glaceon: 96-117 (35.4 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    16 Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Glaceon: 194-230 (71.5 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +1 252 SpA Glaceon Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 112 SpD Hariyama: 283-334 (65.9 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
    +1 252 SpA Glaceon Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Miltank: 264-312 (67 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Glaceon Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 208-246 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +1 252 SpA Glaceon Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Musharna: 272-322 (62.8 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +1 252 SpA Glaceon Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 68 SpD Gallade: 184-217 (54.2 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  18. PenguinAssault

    PenguinAssault

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2017
    Messages:
    30
    [​IMG] ROTOM-S[​IMG]

    Hello everyone. Right now, a mon I think that is criminally underused (for mostly the right reasons) is actually pretty strong right now, so let me share a set with you:

    [​IMG]
    Rotom-Fan @ Leftovers
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
    Bold Nature
    - Air Slash
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Volt Switch
    - Pain Split

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    The main allure of Rotom-Fan with this set is definitely the appeal of having a bulky pivot Pokémon. In my opinion, Rotom-Fan is one of the best physically defensive mons that does this, and I want to explain why it's worthwhile to try to fit this fan onto your team. First, the meta of PU Beta has mainly evolved into a frenzy of Fighting and Flying types that dominate the tier. Rotom-Fan can be a very strong pick to deter the first two mentioned types almost completely (ex. Rotom Fan takes 3 hits of a guts boosted Yama CC), as well as pacify whatever Physical threat comes into a will-o-wisp. Also, unlike pivots like Lanturn, Rotom-Fan gains a unique niche in the from of pseudo-recovery from Pain Split, and it's innate nature to force fightings/flyings out and bring in tanky Grounds/Rocks help it's success of this recovery. Overall, Rotom-Fan stands as a tremoundous pivot with added bulk that can not only cripple opposing attackers, but can also check many threats and deter many late game sweepers by not giving them a chance to set-up through offensive pressure and utility. Finally, Rotom Fan sets a nice niche for himself by checking about half of the mons on this list (threat list by Anty), and 2HKOing many fighting and flying types including Gallade, Gurdurr, Scyther and more as well as being a fantastic check to grass types like Lilligant, Lurantis and Shiftry

    [​IMG]


    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  19. Specs Jigglypuff

    Specs Jigglypuff

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2015
    Messages:
    40
    Hi, so ive been really liking dual screens offense lately and this mon has been really great and shouldn't be slept on!

    [​IMG]
    Meowstic @ Light Clay
    Ability: Prankster
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Light Screen
    - Reflect
    - Psychic
    - Signal Beam

    As veil has slowly been dying out as a result of the best setter being gone this is a great alternative for it. With its decent defenses and great movepool this mon is a great support for any set up sweeper or powerful wallbreaker. Light clay is bar none the best item for it as you want screens to stay up for as long as possible. You can switch the EVs to Max Hp > max Spattack but i like having some offensive power on it. The moves are pretty self explanatory but you can switch out Signal Beam for Safeguard if you want status to not be an issue for a little while. Screens help a lot in a meta where things are setting up all over the place and just the overall power creep pu has seen. Just thought i'd give my 2 cents on this mon! S/O to MoM for putting me on this mon btw!
    tenkai, Plans, iRebel and 5 others like this.
  20. Earlio

    Earlio

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    502
    time to write about my favorite offensive 'mon in the tier (my heart will forever be reserved for Wormadam, however):
    [​IMG]
    Big Gulp (Guzzlord) @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Beast Boost
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Dark Pulse
    - Fire Blast
    - Sludge Wave
    - Draco Meteor

    Pivot this big boy in on resisted attacks early game and then fire off a Modest Draco Meteor to get a free kill (beast boost + specs even leave you at +0 if you're feeling gutsy). Very few teams run dragon resists or immunities, and Guzzlord has the coverage options to take them out pretty easily (Sludge Wave OHKOs Granbull and does a number to PhysDef Togetic). The max speed, while losing a lot of bulk, allows Guzzlord to outspeed threats such Hariyama, Granbull, and Komala (given that they have low speed investment, which is usually standard) and generally just surprise things. Nobody that I've encountered expects a Guzzlord with max speed EVs. Dark Pulse + Beast Boost allows Guzzlord to clean up in the late game and allows him to cheese through walls with flinches.

    Obligitory End Gif Incoming

    [​IMG]
    Phat Albert, Aaronboyer, DEG and 7 others like this.
  21. Yung Dramps

    Yung Dramps

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2017
    Messages:
    292
    Throughout the heavy, non-stop discussion that has been persistent for weeks now concerning the developing metagame, many playstyles have emerged and been discussed in detail, such as Dual Screens, Aurora Veil, Stall, Hyper Offense, Balance, so on and so fort. But there is one you don't see talked about as much. Which is sad, because it's really good, and people are too quick to put it down. While you ladder, you best beware of...


    prankroom.png
    Trick Room (aka the bestest playstyle of all time and if you disagree i will hack your roblox account and steal your robux): An Analysis

    Overview
    Usually, on offensive teams, the goal is to be as speedy as possible so you can outpace and KO your opponents quickly and efficiently. Trick Room turns this standard battle tactic on it's head by allowing the SLOWER Pokemon to outspeed everything. This transforms wall-breakers and bulky attackers into terrifying sweepers that can easily run through unprepared teams. My goal is to highlight some of the best Pokemon to summon/use Trick Room while also taking a look at match-ups V.S. other prominent playstyles.​

    The Setters
    Audino_XY.gif Carbink_XY.gif 103_Alolan_Sprite_Shiny.gif Beheeyem_XY.gif Duosion_XY.gif Dusknoir_XY.gif Dusclops_XY.gif
    Exeggutor-Alola: One of the staples of the playstyle. Exeggutor's decent bulk and good typing allow it to take on a variety of different Pokemon (That is, assuming they don't carry Ice coverage). Once Trick Room has been set up, Exeggutor can then fire off Draco Meteors with a very respectable 125 Special Attack. Exeggutor has tons of options, including recovery, plenty of special coverage, and even a respectable physical movepool with gems like Dragon Hammer, Earthquake, Wood Hammer and Explosion. This, combined with SD and a good 105 attack makes a physical set perfectly feasible.

    Carbink: Another very prominent figure in the Trick Room line-up. Unlike Exeggutor, Carbink functions best as a lead with Stealth Rocks, Trick Room, and Explosion to safely bring in a team-mate. It's solid bulk combined with Sturdy insures that it'll almost always complete it's function as a lead, and Mental Herb helps it even more.

    Audino: Audino is the most support-based setter of the bunch. It has many valuable tools such as Wish, Knock Off, Encore, Heal Bell and Healing Wish, along with very respectable bulk to complement these assets, and Regenerator means it can consistently switch in many times throughout the course of the match. Whether it's wearing down checks to your sweepers with Knock Off + Toxic, or keeping the team happy and healthy with Wish and Heal Bell, Audino is the definitive cleric for Trick Room, and is my personal favorite setter.

    Beheeyem/Duosion: Both of these Pokemon do similar things, but with slight differences between the two depending on what you need. Both of them are pure Psychic types with 125 Special Attack, and have similar movepools, with the most notable options for both being Psychic, Psyshock, Shadow Ball, Signal Beam and Recover. As for Pokemon-specific options, Beheeyem has much more flexibility with items, and it's bulk is more consistent. It also has Nasty Plot, allowing it to serve a potential sweeping role. Duosion, meanwhile, requires Eviolite, and isn't really all that bulky even with it. In exchange, you get two much better abilities in Magic Guard and Regenerator. I do think Beheeyem is the better one of the two, but really, again, it depends on personal preference and what your team needs.

    Dusclops/Dusknoir: Even though I grouped these together, they really serve completely different functions. Dusclops is the most stally Trick Room setter, with Will-O-Wisp to cripple every physical attacker lacking Guts, as well as immense bulk with Eviolite. Dusknoir, meanwhile, is not as bulky. However, it still takes hits fine, and unlike Dusclops, it can dish decent damage back too with a satisfactory 100 Base Attack.


    The Abusers
    Crabominable_SM.gif Wishiwashi.gif (
    I actually could not get any of the other abuser's gifs to work so you'll just have to imagine them)
    Crabominable: The best Trick Room sweeper there is, no ifs, ands or buts about it. Besides a gargantuan 132 Attack with powerful STABs in Ice Hammer and Close Combat, Ice/Fighting is also an amazing STAB type, hitting everything for at least neutral. It honestly edges out over Ghost/Fighting in my opinion due to hitting more things super-effectively. Also, since Ice Hammer lowers speed, you're technically raising your Speed when you use it in TR. However, it is quite frail, and it's coverage is limited, making it somewhat of a glass cannon.

    Wishiwashi-School: Wishiwashi functions as an awesome mixed attacker in TR, sporting 140 in BOTH attacking stats. Unlike Crabominable, frailty is not an issue, due to pure Water being good defensively, as well 130 Defense and 135 Special Defense. However, it has a slew of other problems that make it un-ideal outside of TR. It's movepool is EXTREMELY limited. It has only 6 viable attacking moves, half of which are Water moves (Earthquake, U-turn, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Surf and Waterfall). If it sinks below 25% HP, it'll revert in it's solo form, which is a useless Pokemon that would make most of LC shit their pants in laughter. Still good in TR though, do give it a try.

    Drampa: I already wrote a long, intricate post about the god himself back in Alpha. If I find it, I will be sure to link it. In the transition from Alpha to Beta, nothing has changed. It has a giant 135 Special Attack, and it's movepool stretches across the horizon, allowing it to hit everything in the tier for super-effective damage. While not technically frail, it isn't super bulky either, and it's typing gives it weaknesses to common types like Fighting and Fairy. My favorite sets (on TR at least) are CM + Z-move and Specs/LO. Both function great at late-game cleaning.

    Ursaring: Meet the Trick Room version of Zangoose. And if you thought that mon hurt like a bitch... Well, let's just say that Ursaring makes Zangoose look like Barbie in comparison. Ursaring is the main anti-stall Pokemon for Trick Room, being able to tear through all the key stall Pokemon like a hot knife through paper. If you can get up an SD, something WILL die. And in case you thought Quagsire could put a stop to the set-up madness...

    252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 301-355 (76.3 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    So yeah. Ursaring. It kills.

    Mawile: Mawile is technically the weakest so far, with a paltry 85 Attack. To compensate for this, it has the awesome ability Sheer Force, boosting both of it's STABS as well as many of it's coverage options. Steel/Fairy is decent offensively, and spectacular defensively, giving it only two real weaknesses. Unlike other TR exploiters, it has priority in the form of Sucker Punch. That said, it's still kinda frail, and it can fall short of KOs even with Sheer Force.

    Rampardos: Probably the least good TR sweeper, but still solid nonetheless. 165 Attack Continental Crush is nothing to screw around with, especially with SD being an option. Sheer Force w/ Rock Slide is also an option.

    Note: Despite being in the "Setters" section, Beheeyem and Exeggutor-Alola can do fine at sweeping too.

    Match-Ups V.S. Other Playstyles

    Hyper-Offense: Good
    Most TR setters can easily take a hit or two and set up. It's not long until one of your sweepers comes in and demolishes the opposition.

    Balance: Shaky
    While some balance mons fall over easily, there are plenty of Pokemon like Piloswine and Weezing that can take the sweeper's hits, and either phase them or hit back hard. Musharna especially is a massive problem.

    Aurora Veil/Dual Screens: Good
    Similar to Hyper-Offense, TR sweepers can "outspeed" Aveil setters and KO them before they get an opportunity to do anything. KOing the rest of the party is easy with proper prediction and aggressive play.

    Stall: Bad
    Stall does what stall does. Unless you have Ursaring, you're gonna have a rough time. If you have Ursaring, consider this match-up Shaky, due to having to rely on one Pokemon to beat the foe down.

    Trick Room:
    Shaky
    This depends entirely on how you and your opponent's teams are composed. It could go one way, it could go another.

    Weather: Good
    Trick Room turns Swift Swim, Chlorophyll, Sand Rush and the rare Slush Rush against their users, giving you a ripe oppurtunity to beat down the opponent's frail sweepers, and only semi-bulky weather setters.

    Sticky Web: Good
    Once again, Trick Room turns Sticky Web from a hinderance into a help, effectively making your party faster.


    And that's it. Yeah, I got kinda lazy towards the end lol, I just wanted this done

    Overall, while Trick Room is not perfect, it still can do very well under the right circumstances. People are too quick to oust it as a gimmick playstyle with no real merit. Give it a try, you may like it.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  22. mploz

    mploz

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2015
    Messages:
    16
    I'd like to add to this and say lurantis is an exceptional tr abuser.
    [​IMG]
    Lurantis @ Normalium Z
    Ability: Contrary
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
    - Leaf Storm
    - Hyper Beam
    - Hidden Power [Ground]
    - Defog

    I have had a lot of fun with this set in NU. With rocks up there are very few mons that can switch in and take a leaf storm into +2 blitz. HP ground I have found to be most effective so you're not walled by steel types and don't need to waste a z move on a fire or poison type. Its move pool is bone dry so defog was all there was left.
    It also has a cool neich in that it can limit carbink TR to either rock or trick room. If carbink does go for TR first then you got 4 turns to destroy and start at +4 with no rocks.

    Calcs (open)
    252+ SpA Lurantis Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 68+ SpD Altaria: 34-40 (9.6 - 11.3%).
    +2 252+ SpA Lurantis Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 248 HP / 68+ SpD Altaria: 282-332 (79.8 - 94%).

    +2 252+ SpA Lurantis Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 228 SpD Weezing: 349-411 (104.4 - 123%)

    +2 252+ SpA Lurantis Leaf Storm vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Musharna: 351-414 (81 - 95.6%)

    I would put more calcs in but its quite difficult on a phone.
    Mons that can take on lurantis include but not limited to AV Muk, defensive Roselia, gourgiest, trevenant, bronzor, ferroseed, etc.

    An honorable mention can be banded max attack zwelious seeing how it has the strongest outrage in the game as far as I'm aware of.
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
    Phat Albert and Yung Dramps like this.
  23. ~Volbeatdown~

    ~Volbeatdown~

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2013
    Messages:
    256
    Really fun and pretty cool set that some friends and I have been abusing on ladder to high success, not gonna waste your time with giant gifs and portraits because that shit's annoying:

    [​IMG]
    Beheeyem @ Psychium Z
    Ability: Analytic
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
    - Psychic
    - Signal Beam
    - Thunderbolt
    - Trick Room

    Just a really solid late-game win-con that I don't think is getting enough representation. Beheeyem is also really useful mid-game, as it can forego trick room to instead fire off Analytic moves to get necessary prior damage on it's checks to help your teammates late-game, or to push for a late game sweep of it's own. Shattered Psyche hits like an absolute truck, and can blast through many of Beheeyem's defensive checks such as Lanturn, Regirock, and many more. Analytic Z-Move is also good if you just want to blast something in the early-/mid-game. Coverage moves are pretty self-explanatory, though HP-Ground is an option if you really don't want Probopass to wall. This set is really functional against most archetypes, and I seriously recommend it.

    (Also Z-Trick Room goes through Taunt for the most godlike lure of all time :0)
  24. Twix

    Twix chill out
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2014
    Messages:
    1,093
    Alright so before any quickbans happen and shift the metagame I'd like to post some more fun Pokemon I've been playing around with for the past week to some success. I'm going to use old sprites because I think it makes my post look better.

    [​IMG]
    Granbull @ Toxic Orb
    Ability: Quick Feet
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Play Rough
    - Facade
    - Close Combat
    - Earthquake / Fire Punch

    Granbull is probably my favorite Pokemon from this past week just because of the insane damage output it has. Play Rough is the obligatory STAB move that obliterates Fighting- and Dragon-types, while Facade is a 140 BP move that hits a bit stronger against non-supereffective targets. Close Combat and Earthquake allow Granbull to take on Steel-, Rock-, Electric, and Fire-types that it couldn't normally take out with the aforementioned moves. With Toxic Orb and Quick Feet, Granbull can hit 310 Speed and take on a lot more threats than it would've been able to before, outspeeding Gallade, Absol, and Shiftry.

    [​IMG]
    Aggron @ Life Orb / Rockium Z / Groundium Z / Steelium Z
    Ability: Rock Head
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Rock Polish
    - Head Smash
    - Earthquake
    - Heavy Slam

    Rock Polish Aggron is a beast (unless it misses Head Smash) if you ever find an opportunity to set up with it. The damage output in conjunction with a Life Orb is gigantic, and being able to hit almost 400 Speed outpaces most non-scarf Pokemon in the tier. Head Smash gives no recoil with Rock Head, and is a 150 BP STAB move which terrorizes opponents. Earthquake basically hits everything that resists Head Smash, such as Steel-types (bar Ferroseed), while Heavy Slam is a secondary STAB move which can also dish out tons of damage.

    [​IMG]
    Persian-Alola @ Darkinium Z
    Ability: Fur Coat
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Foul Play
    - Parting Shot
    - Taunt
    - Toxic / filler

    Z Parting Shot is really valuable for offensive teams with boosters, and Persian is easily the best user of it in the tier. Persian is a really effective pivot, able to Taunt opposing Pokemon to prevent hazards or set up, and follow it up with a powerful Foul Play or pivoting. With Fur Coat, Persian becomes even more of an annoyance, as most physical hits can't break through it. It's a really cool Pokemon in the metagame and works well if you have a free Z move slot.

    [​IMG]
    Murkrow @ Flyinium Z
    Ability: Prankster
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Brave Bird
    - Sucker Punch
    - Mirror Move
    - Pursuit / Dark Pulse / Heat Wave / Haze / Thunder Wave / Taunt / Tailwind

    Murkrow is fun to use and is actually a pretty large threat in the current metagame. Flyinium Z helps Murkrow in two ways. First, it allows it to use a 190 BP Flying-type Attack through Brave Bird. Second, it allows it to get a Swords Dance boost and return an opponent's move through the use of Mirror Move, which also gets priority through Prankster. Its solid 95 Speed and 85 attack stats allows it to beat down offensive teams pretty well. Sucker Punch is Murkrow's best physical Dark-type move, and offers it an effective form of priority. Pursuit is a cool option in the last slot as it can trap opposing Pokemon, while being a more consistent Dark-type move than Sucker Punch. However, there are a lot of other options in the last slot.

    [​IMG]
    Quagsire @ Leftovers
    Ability: Unaware
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
    Impish Nature
    - Curse
    - Recover
    - Waterfall
    - Earthquake / Toxic

    Although Curse is an optional set for Quagsire, I think it's really underrated in a metagame filled with Physical threats. I've put this set on both a Stall and Balanced team and it works really effectively in taking on Physical Attackers. As long as it doesn't get statused or nailed by a Special and/or Grass-type attack, Quagsire is able to survive pretty well in the metagame.
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
    Cheryl., Many, LordST and 11 others like this.
  25. Taskr

    Taskr

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2015
    Messages:
    251
    There is a lot of Pokemon in the meta right now that are hard for a lot of teams to handle so I wanted to make this post to help players identify and deal with these threats effectively. I'm going to take inspiration from this threatlist made by Anty and show you which Pokemon can work well as 'Checks' and 'Counters' to the meta's top threats as well as a small description to explain why. Just to clarify, a 'Check' is a Pokemon that can either switch in once and revenge kill the target or not be able to switch in at all but can still revenge kill whilst a 'Counter' is a Pokemon that can switch in multiple time throughout the match and beat it 1v1.

    Barbaracle

    [​IMG]

    Example Set(s) (open)

    Barbaracle @ Rockium Z/Shuca Berry
    Ability: Tough Claws
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Adamant/Jolly Nature
    - Shell Smash
    - Razor Shell
    - Stone Edge / Frustration
    - Earthquake

    Checks (open)


    [​IMG] - Gurdurr is really good check to Barbaracle due to it's impressive Physical Bulk combined with it's Fighting type that means it can revenge kill with a super effective Drain/Mach Punch.

    [​IMG] - Hitmonchan is an effective check to Barbaracle because of it's ability to fire off strong Iron Fist boosted Mach Punches which can KO -1 Barbaracle after Stealth Rock damage.

    [​IMG] - Scarf Tauros can outspeed +2 Jolly Barbaracle and has good chance to KO it with Earthquake after the Defense drop.

    [​IMG]/[​IMG] - Scarf Raichu can also outspeed +2 Barbaracle and OHKO with Thunderbolt.

    [​IMG] - Poliwrath is a great check because of it's Water Absorb ability means it's immune to Razor Shell as well as resisting Stone Edge and can reply with Focus Blast/Vacuum Wave/Circle throw.

    [​IMG] - Throh's natural bulk allows it to live a +2 Adamant Razor Shell pretty comfortably and can phaze out whilst also dealing super effective damage with Razor Shell.

    [​IMG] - Torterra is able to switch in and eat a +2 Razor Shell whilst resisting Stone Edge and Earthquake. STAB Wood Hammer is able to OHKO Barbaracle from full.

    [​IMG] - If invested in physical defense Lurantis is able to tank a +2 Adamant Stone Edge and OHKO with a 4x super effective Leaf Storm.

    [​IMG] - Cradily can also check if it runs a physically defensive spread because it can live the +2 Stone Edge and reply with Giga Drain.

    [​IMG] - Barbaracle struggles to get past Weezing die to it's great physical bulk and it's ability to Will-O-Wisp it and Pain Split off the damage.


    Counters (open)


    [​IMG] - Quagsire's Unaware ability means it can ignore Barbaracle's boosts so it's attacks don't do very much damage and Quagsire can hit it back with Earthquake. It only fears Grassium-Z Grass Knot sets which aren't too common.

    [​IMG] - Ferrothorn can eat Barbarcle's hits really well because of it's bulk with Eviolite and 2HKO's with Gyro Ball when Barb is at +2 Speed -1 Defense. Although this mon fears Fightinium-Z Superpower sets.

    [​IMG] - Like Poliwrath, Gastrodon has the Water Absorb ability which means it can take both of Barbaracle's STAB moves really well but like Quagsire, this mon fears Grassium-Z too.

    [​IMG] - Impressive physical bulk is what makes Gourgeist-XL a good counter, being able to take +2 Stone Edges and OHKO back with Foul Play after the boost.

    [​IMG] - Tangela with an Eviolite possesses more physical defence than most Pokemon in the PU tier and it's super effective Giga Drain makes it a really reliable counter.



    Gallade

    [​IMG]

    Example Set(s) (open)

    Gallade @ Psychium Z
    Ability: Justified
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Close Combat
    - Zen Headbutt
    - Knock Off

    Gallade @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Justified
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Trick/Leaf Blade
    - Close Combat
    - Zen Headbutt
    - Knock Off

    Checks (open)


    [​IMG] - Vivillon is a good check Hurricane can knock out Gallade after some prior damage and even if that prior damage is not achieved most Vivillons use Flyinium-Z or a Focus sash.

    [​IMG] - Scyther can outspeed and OHKO with Technician boosted Aerial Ace.

    [​IMG] - Defensive Mawile is able to take a +1 Close Combat fairly well and can revenge with Play Rough after some chip.

    [​IMG] - Life Orb Air Slash from Charizard has a very good chance to KO after Stealth Rock but also Firium-Z Flare Blitz can also suffice.

    [​IMG] - Swanna outspeeds and knocks out Gallade with Life Orb Hurricane.

    [​IMG] - All Oricorio forms are able to also outspeed and KO with Hurricane after Stealth Rock damage. Flyinium-Z is also an option to revenge kill if you don't want to risk the roll or the miss.

    [​IMG] - Similarly to Oricorio, Articuno just about outspeeds Gallade and Hurricane KO's after rocks damage too.

    [​IMG] - Full power Acrobatics is able to OHKO Gallade from full HP.

    [​IMG] - Murkrow is able to outspeed and knock out Gallade with Brave Bird although it isn't able to check Scarf Gallade because Close Combat OHKO's Murkrow.

    [​IMG] - Life Orb Shadow Ball is able to net the KO 100% of the time but Haunter has to watch out for the uncommon Shadow Sneak sets or Scarf Gallade locked into Zen Headbutt/Knock Off.

    [​IMG] - Choice Band Adamant Shadow Sneak is enough to knock out Gallade most of the time after Stealth Rock.

    [​IMG] - LO Tauros is able to outspeed and is powerful enough OHKO Gallade with Body Slam but it cannot check Scarf very well as Scarf Tauros doesn't knock out Scarf Gallade with Double Edge.

    [​IMG] - Psychium-Z Beheeyem is able to eat a +2 Knock Off and OHKO back with Analytic boosted Shattered Psyche.

    [​IMG] - Granbull can switch in a check non-Shattered Psyche variants of Gallade as it can eat any other hit at +1 and revenge kill with Play Rough.


    Counters (open)


    [​IMG] - Sableye is a really good counters as it is immune to both of Gallades STAB moves and with a Physically Defensive spread plus it's ability to Will-O-Wisp and Foul Play means it's very hard for Gallade to break past.

    [​IMG] - Fairium-Z Musharna is a really nice set right now as it walls Gallade very well because of Knock Off's reduced damage vs Z-Crystals and Twinkle Tackle into Psyshock is able to KO Gallade.



    Klinklang

    [​IMG]

    Example Set(s) (open)

    Klinklang @ Steelium-Z/Normalium-Z/Leftovers
    Ability: Clear Body
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Shift Gear
    - Gear Grind
    - Return
    - Substitute/Magnet Rise/Wild Charge

    Checks (open)


    [​IMG] - Sableye is able to Will-O-Wisp Klinklang due to Prankster and if Klinklang is behind a Substitute then it can break with Foul Play whilst being able to eat a Gear Grind.

    [​IMG] - Poliwrath is a good check to most Klinklang variants as it can take even a +1 Breakneck Blitz whilst KO'ing back with Focus Blast or Phazing with Circle Throw. Although it gets beaten by Z-Wild Charge variants.

    [​IMG] - Although it hasn't got the greatest bulk, Togedemaru's typing mean it resists every one of Klinklang's attacks and can beat it 1v1 with a combination of Zing Zap, Rocky Helmet and Iron Barbs damage.

    [​IMG] - Ampharos is able to live a +1 Breakneck Blitz and KO back with Focus Blast. Although the mon itself is pretty niche in this meta.

    [​IMG] - Gurdurr is probably one of the more sturdier Klinklang checks as it can live a +1 Adamant Corkscrew Crash and even gather back it's health whilst revenge killing with Drain Punch into Mach Punch.

    [​IMG] - Prinplup is able to eat Klinklang's hits very well but the only thing stopping it from being a counter is because Scald is a 3HKO and it can be worn down by repeated Frustration's if it doesn't burn. Prinplup has also got to watch out for Z-Wild Charge sets altough they are uncommon.

    [​IMG] - Weezing is able to take a +1 Adamant Corkscrew Crash and Pain Split off the damage or Will-O-Wisp but this mon can also lose to Subsitute Klinklang without Flamethrower.

    [​IMG] - With Eviolite Metang can take any of Klinklang's attacks really well and Metang can reply with Earthquake.

    [​IMG] - Klinklang can work as a decent check after to itself if it runs Z-Wild Charge as this hits Klinklang neutrally whereas Gear Grind and Return are both resisted.


    Counters (open)


    [​IMG] - The natural bulk that Stunfisk possesses and it's ability to resist Gear Grind means it can take on Klinkklang really well and 2HKO back pretty comfortably with Earth Power.

    [​IMG] - Klinklang's Attack boosts mean nothing to Quagsire because of Unaware and Quag can revenge kill with Earthquake.

    [​IMG] - Physically Defensive Gastrodon is a good counter to most variants of Klinklang as it resist Gear Grind and it's bulk lets it take returns whilst 2HKO'ing with Earth Power. It only struggles vs Magnet Rise Normalium-Z Klinklang as that has a chance to 1v1 if Scald doesn't burn.

    [​IMG] - Ferroseed is able to beat all variants of Klinklang 1v1 by wearing it down with Leech Seed plus Iron Barbs damage whilst also chipping it with Gyro Ball. Substitute Leftovers Klinklang can be problematic but but Ferroseed can run knock off to counteract this.



    Lilligant

    [​IMG]

    Example Set(s) (open)

    Lilligant @ Life Orb
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Quiver Dance
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power Fire/Hidden Power Rock
    - Sleep Powder

    Lilligant @ Psychium-Z/Normalium-Z
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Quiver Dance
    - Giga Drain
    - Dream Eater/Hyper Beam
    - Sleep Powder

    Checks (open)

    Note: A lot of these checks and counters are situational because of Lilligant's ability to bypass them with Z-Moves like Z-Hyper Beam or Z-Dream Eater for example.

    [​IMG] - Scarf Scyther is able to outspeed Lilligant at +1 and OHKO with one of it's STAB Super Effective attacks.

    [​IMG] - Skuntank is a pretty nice check as it can take any of Lilligant's attacks at +1 and OHKO back with Poison Jab. You can also run a Lum berry to avoid the Sleep Powder.

    [​IMG] - Due to Guzzord's impressive bulk it can often take multiple Giga Drains before waking up and replying with a Choice Specs Fire Blast.

    [​IMG] - Being immune to Sleep Powder and not being hit Super Effectively by HP Fire is really nice for Exeggutor as it can proceed to turn the tables with Trick Room or just click Flamethrower to 2HKO.

    [​IMG] - AV Magmortar is still able to eat a +1 HP Rock after Stealth Rock damage and OHKO back with Fire Blast. It also can't be put to sleep because of it's ability in Vital Spirit.

    [​IMG] - Scarf Haunter is able to outspeed and hit Lilligant with a Sludge Wave that knocks out Lilligant at +1 after rocks.

    [​IMG] - All of the Oricorio forms are able to outspeed with a Choice Scarf and KO with Hurricane. It can even switch in on a predicted Quiver Dance and copy the boosts due to its Dancer ability.

    [​IMG] - Ninjask is able to outspeed +1 Timid Lilligant by just 1 point and can revenge kill with Leech Life.

    [​IMG] - Like Scyther and Haunter, Primeape is another scarfer that can outspeed Lilligant and KO with Gunk Shot or Close Combat after some prior damage. Primeape can also run Vital Spirit to switch in on predicted Sleep Powders.

    [​IMG] - If at full HP Gale Wings makes all Fletchinder's Flying type moves priority meaning Fletchinder can OHKO Lilligant with Acrobatics.

    [​IMG] - Sap Sipper Zebstrika is immune to Grass type attacks and Zebstrika can reply with Overheat to 2HKO.

    [​IMG] - Scarf Jynx can outspeed +1 Lilligant and KO most of the time with Ice Beam after some chip damage.

    [​IMG] - Miltank can also run the Sap Sipper ability and 3HKO with Body Slam.


    Counters (open)


    [​IMG] - Roselia is immune to Sleep Powder because of it's Grass typing and if invested in Special Defense then it doesn't much damage from HP Fire and can either Synthesis off the damage or 2HKO with Sludge Bomb.

    [​IMG] - With Sap Sipper, Drampa is immune to Lilligant's Grass moves and Drampa can fire back with powerful Dragon/Fire type attacks whilst being able to recover with Roost.

    [​IMG] - Specially Defensive Vullaby can take any of Lilligant's attacks comfortably and heal up with Roost or pivot out with U-Turn. It doesn't have to worry about being put to sleep because of Overcoat.

    [​IMG] - Muk is a very nice counter to Lilligant due to it's great Special bulk and resisting it's Grass moves in combination with running Sleep Talk so it doesn't care about being put to sleep.

    [​IMG] - Similarly to Miltank and Drampa, Bouffalant has Sap Sipper but it's a lot bulkier on the Special side when equipped with Assault Vest and it can OHKO Lilligant if it gets the attack raise.




    Musharna

    [​IMG]

    Example Set(s) (open)

    Musharna @ Fairium-Z
    Ability: Synchronize
    EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe
    Bold Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Psyshock
    - Moonlight
    - Dazzling Gleam

    Musharna @ Leftovers/Colbur Berry
    Ability: Synchronize
    EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe
    Bold Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Stored Power
    - Moonlight
    - Barrier/Heal Bell

    Checks (open)


    [​IMG] - Skuntank takes neutral damage from Dazzling Gleam and Twinkle Tackle so it can easly come in on Musharna and reply with Crunch/Pursuit.

    [​IMG] - With an Eviolite, Scyther can come in on Musharna without taking too much damage even from Twinkle Tackle and start to Swords Dance up itself to force Musharna out.

    [​IMG] - Pinsir is one of the few mons that can outspeed and OHKO Musharna using Bugium-Z X-Scissor.

    [​IMG] - Like Pinsir, Raticate is able to grab the OHKO on non-Colbur Musharna with an Adamant Dark-Hole Eclipse from Z-Crunch.

    [​IMG] - Choice Banded Zweilious is the other mon capable of knocking out non-Colbur Musharna variants from full but you need a little bit on chip damage to always guarantee the knock out.

    [​IMG] - Klinklang is able to come in on Musharna and win the 1v1 vs non-Barrier variants using Shift Gear and it's ability to resist Musharna's attacks.

    [​IMG] - Choice Banded Aggron also resists both Psyshock and Twinkle Tackle so it can come in and grab the 2HKO but like Klinklang it can also lose to Barrier Variants.

    [​IMG] - Bulky Beheeyem can win the 1v1 by Nasty Plotting up and hitting it with Shadow Ball/Signal Beam.


    Counters (open)


    [​IMG] - With Taunt, Vigoroth is able to come in, set up a couple of Bulk Ups and win 1v1 vs Musharna pretty handily.

    [​IMG] - Bronzor is able to resist all of Musharna's attacks and with it's great bulk holding an Eviolite it can easily click Toxic and stall out Musharna with Rest.

    [​IMG] - Taunt Probopass is also able to beat Musharna because of it's impressive bulk/resistances and ability to not get worn down due to Leftovers recovery.

    [​IMG] - Toxic Metang is a decent counter as it has the bulk to switch in multiple times vs Musharna and beat it 1v1 with Toxic damage.



    Tauros

    [​IMG]

    Example set(s) (open)

    Tauros @ Life Orb
    Ability: Sheer Force
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    Naive Nature
    - Body Slam/Rock Climb
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast
    - Zen Headbutt/Rock Slide/Iron Tail

    Tauros @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Double Edge
    - Earthquake
    - Pursuit
    - Frustration/Zen Headbutt

    Checks (open)


    [​IMG] - Gurdurr is able to check Tauros decently well by taking any hit and replying with Drain Punch in Mach to KO.

    [​IMG] - Passimian can take a Zen Headbutt and OHKO with Close Combat.

    [​IMG] - Scarf Primeape outspeeds non-Scarf variants of Tauros and KO's with Close Combat too.

    [​IMG] - Torterra can invest enough in Physical Bulk to always avoid the 2HKO from Rock Climb so it can beat Tauros 1v1 by clicking Earthquake twice.

    [​IMG] - Golurk is immune to Tauros' Normal type attacks and Golurk can fire back with a super effective Dynamic Punch that has a chance to OHKO after rocks.

    [​IMG] - Choice Banded Dusknoir's EQ is a 2HKO on Tauros whilst Tauros fails to 2HKO back with any of it's moves.

    [​IMG] - Stoutland can live a Body Slam/Rock Climb and KO back with Superpower.

    [​IMG] - Poliwrath is able to live any hit including Zen Headbutt and knock out Tauros with Focus Blast.

    [​IMG] - Lunatone is a decent check to non-Iron Tail variants of Tauros as it can live any other hit decently well and OHKO with Psychic after Stealth Rock.

    [​IMG] - Shuca Barbaracle can set up a Shell Smash against Tauros comfortably and OHKO back with Razor Shell at +2.

    [​IMG] - Weezing can take any hit Tauros wants to click and burn it with Will-O-Wisp then Pain Split up.

    [​IMG] - Throh can Circle Throw Tauros out whilst also being able to live a Zen Headbutt.


    Counters (open)


    [​IMG] - Physically Defensive Miltank avoids the 2HKO even after Stealth Rock allowing for Miltank to Milk Drink up and win 1v1 with Body Slam.

    [​IMG] - Palossand's good physical bulk and immunity to Normal type moves makes it a great counter to Tauros.

    [​IMG] - Because of Mudsdale's decent Defense stat it can eat up Tauros' Body Slam/Rock Climbs really well whilst also boosting it's defense with Stamina.

    [​IMG] - Quagsire is able to avoid the 2HKO from Tauros and set up Curses or just beat it 1v1 by chipping it with Toxic/Scald.

    [​IMG] - Physically Defensive Gastrodon can recover off any damage from Body Slam Tauros but be weary of Rock Climb as it has a small chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock.

    [​IMG] - Carracosta's Solid Rock ability combined with it's good Defense means it can take Earthquakes really well and reply with Scald which 3HKO's or has a chance to Burn. This is while getting passive recovery from Leftovers.

    [​IMG] - Solrock takes on all non-Iron Tail Tauros' extremely well as it resists all of it's other attacks and can Burn it with Will-O-Wisp.

    [​IMG] - Regirock's incredible bulk means it doesn't mind taking Earthquakes and 2HKO'ing back with Stone Edge after rocks. But even Regirock has to watch out for Iron Tail as it has a chance to 2HKO depending on your spread.



    Vivillon

    [​IMG]

    Example Set(s) (open)

    Vivillon @ Flyinium Z/Focus Sash
    Ability: Compound Eyes
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Quiver Dance
    - Sleep Powder
    - Hurricane
    - Energy Ball/Substitute/bug Buzz

    Checks (open)


    [​IMG] - Scarf Scyther outspeed +1 Vivillon and OHKO's with Aerial Ace.

    [​IMG] - Assault Vest Magmortar can live a Flyinium-Z Hurricane from full if Stealth Rocks aren't up and can't be put to sleep due to Vital Spirit. It can also check non Z-move sets even if Stealth Rock is up.

    [​IMG] - All Scarf Oricorio forms outspeed and OHKO back with Hurricane. Dancer is also able to give you a free Quiver Dance if predicted well.

    [​IMG] - Rotom-Fan resists both of Vivillons attacks and has the bulk to take it on decently well although it doesn't like being put to sleep by Sleep Powder.

    [​IMG] - Scarf Primeape is able to outspeed and OHKO Vivillon with Stone Edge. It can also switch in on a predicted Sleep Powder if running Vital Spirit.

    [​IMG] - Piloswine is able to knock out Vivillon with Ice Shard after Stealth Rock damage. It can also live a +1 Hurricane/ Energy Ball but it's still susceptible to being put to sleep.

    [​IMG] - Electivire can live a +1 Supersonic Skystrike even after Rocks and KO back with Thunderbolt. It also has the ability to run Vital Spirit like Magmortar and Primeape.

    [​IMG] - Similarly to Piloswine, Abomasnow's Ice Shard knocks out Vivillon after Stealth Rock but unlike Piloswine it can't take the Hurricane.

    [​IMG] - Specially Defensive Cradily can take a Z-Hurricane and knock out Vivillon with Rock Slide whilst not being able to be put to sleep due to the Grass typing.

    [​IMG] - Choice Scarf Jynx can outspeed and knock out Vivillon with Ice Beam.

    [​IMG] - Lycanrock can OHKO Vivillon with the priority move Accelerock.

    [​IMG] - Comatose means Komala doesn't have to worry about Sleep Powder and with an Assault Vest or Special Defense investment it can survive a +1 Supersonic Skystrike.

    [​IMG] - Muk's good special bulk means it can take Vivillon's Hurricanes decently well and can 2HKO with Poison Jab. It also runs Sleep Talk which helps vs Sleep Powder.

    [​IMG] - Jolly Ninjask is able to outspeed +1 Vivillon and can OHKO with Aerial Ace if Banded or with some prior damage if it isn't.

    [​IMG] - Klinklang can work as a check if another team member has already been put to sleep because Klinklang resists both of Vivillon's coverage but can also lose to Z-Hurricane with bad sleep turns.


    Counters (open)

    [​IMG] - Oricorio-Pom Pom deserves a special mention as because with Safety Goggles it beats Vivillon 1v1 all of the time and can Roost off the damage whilst grabbing Quiver Dances whenever Vivillon tries to boost.

    [​IMG] - Togedemaru 4x resists Hurricane and can OHKO back with Zing Zap. It doesn't mind being slept too much because of the 4x resist but Safety Goggles is also an option.

    [​IMG] - Bronzor's fantastic bulk coupled with it's ability to resist Flying type moves means it's a decent Vivillon counter.



    You can let me know if I've missed anything on Showdown or Discord but I hope you can find this a useful tool to use when teambuilding!
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
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