1. The moderators of this forum are Anty, galbia, and Megazard.
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  3. Click here to ensure that you never miss a new SmogonU video upload!

Metagame np: SM PU Stage 1.1: Legend Has it [Hariyama Stays Banned]

Discussion in 'PU' started by galbia, Sep 5, 2017.

  1. Anty

    Anty the dirt in your fries
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus
    PU Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2013
    Messages:
    2,927
    Show Hide
    [​IMG]


    Mega Charizard has been banned from the PU Tier. Read about it here.

    Tagging The Immortal to implement on the ladder, thanks.

    Public suspect soon
  2. Twix

    Twix chill out
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2014
    Messages:
    1,165
    some cool new stuff i've been cooking up:

    [​IMG]
    Mesprit @ Normalium Z
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - U-turn
    - Hyper Beam
    - Psychic

    built this for pupl and not open since every single person brings skunk. basically, you get skunk to switch into rocks or have some prior damage and then blow it back with Z Hyper Beam. works really well with Toxic Spikes and doesn't really give up much for it.

    [​IMG]
    Qwilfish @ Waterium Z
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Spikes
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Aqua Tail
    - Explosion / Taunt / Destiny Bond

    this set basically functions the same as the other one before: get up hazards and nuke skunk. it also has Explosion so you can block defog and stuff and do massive damage so that's cool. Aqua Tail > Waterfall is kinda unfort but Z move does 15 BP more.

    [​IMG]
    Lycanroc @ Rockium Z
    Ability: Sand Rush
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Stone Edge
    - Accelerock
    - Swords Dance
    - Sucker Punch

    Really been liking the roc as a cleaner, especially with Sucker Punch. It can get a lot of surprise kills which i like, although it may not be as reliable all the time. the rest of the set besides that is pretty standard but yeah good mon.

    [​IMG]
    Kabutops @ Rockium Z
    Ability: Weak Armor
    Happiness: 0
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Aqua Jet
    - Waterfall
    - Stone Edge

    really similar to lycanroc but has water moves and water priority with less speed. Weak Armor is really cool as it essentially gives an agility boost if made contact with which could help it outspeed opposing mons without having to waste a move.

    [​IMG]
    Kangaskhan @ Leftovers
    Ability: Early Bird
    EVs: 248 HP / 196 Def / 48 SpD / 16 Spe
    Calm Nature
    - Rest
    - Seismic Toss
    - Whirlpool
    - Toxic

    posted about whirlpool kanga before but i finally retooled the EV spread to be able to take two acros from archeops and two hurricanes from life orb swanna.

    [​IMG]
    Throh @ Leftovers
    Ability: Guts
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
    Careful Nature
    - Circle Throw
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Bulk Up / Knock Off

    throh is really cool. even though we have annoying stuff like gurdurr it is really hard to kill and really works well with the prevalent spike stack. it's just a really annoying phazer that i've loved to abuse.
  3. Rwby

    Rwby

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2014
    Messages:
    575
    Even though Charizard was one of my main wincons, because I'm a cheap player lol, it's good to see it gone. I don't think some people realised how much it affected building in general, and how much restriction was put on how you formed your team to try and check every possible Charizard set; to the point that one of my teams required Scarf/Band Lycanroc to not lose to the Z-Hold Hands set. Charizard was also extremely easy to fit on teams that required a wincon and basically won most late-games if played somewhat competently. I feel like the meta will be a little more fresh and things that previously were not viable will start popping up, as they don't have to fear Charizard using them as setup bait. It'll be interesting to see what pops up now, seeing as the meta is currently as balanced as ever.
  4. Anty

    Anty the dirt in your fries
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus
    PU Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2013
    Messages:
    2,927
    [​IMG]
    Hello, PU is starting its first public suspect (re)test with Hariyama.

    Hariyama was originally banned by council vote due to Guts Flame Orb sets having immense power along with its strong coverage and potential to run different moves meaning it had no guaranteed counters, along with its reasonable bulk to find oppurtunities to come in. Since then the tier has changed a lot, notably Hariyama ganed two hard checks in Qwilfish and Mesprit, along with another check in Archeops, while some of its over checks remain high in usage such as Musharna and Golurk. Furthermore, Hariyama's Assault Vest set may be healthy for the tier due to its ability to take on prominent special attackers like Pyroar, Magmortar, and Guzzlord the tier has been lacking answers to.

    Hariyama will be allowed on the ladder during this suspect test.

    The reqs will be 2700 COIL with a B value of 9.0 and a 70 game limit. This suspect period will last for 10 days, ending on Saturday, October 7th at 10 PM GMT+1

    N=9.0/log2(40*GXE/2700)

    Tagging the The Immortal for the ladder.

    For Hariyama to be unbanned it will need a supermajority of 60% unban votes.

    /!\ Rules for posting in this thread /!\
    • No one liners nor uninformed posts;
    • No discussion on other potential suspects;
    • No discussion on the suspect process;
    • You are required to make respectful posts;
    • Failing to follow these simple guidelines will result into your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
    The thread will be locked for the next few days to give people time to play with Hariyama before posting. Please do not make assumptions about Hariyama based on how it was in the previous metagame, and make sure you have had appropriate experience with it before posting.

    edt: Voting in this test will count towards TC
  5. Anty

    Anty the dirt in your fries
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus
    PU Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2013
    Messages:
    2,927
    Ok this test will mainly be focussing on Guts Hariyama and there is a fair chance you won't see too many on the ladder (ala throh), the council and I have put together some teams we suggest you use on the ladder. The post might be updated ftr.

    Anty's "good" team
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Show Hide

    Hariyama @ Flame Orb
    Ability: Guts
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Facade
    - Heavy Slam
    - Bullet Punch

    Lilligant @ Life Orb
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Sleep Powder
    - Quiver Dance
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    Sableye @ Leftovers
    Ability: Prankster
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Taunt
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Recover
    - Foul Play

    Mesprit @ Fairium Z
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Calm Mind
    - Psychic
    - Dazzling Gleam
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    Aggron @ Stone Plate
    Ability: Rock Head
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Heavy Slam
    - Head Smash
    - Taunt

    Primeape @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Defiant
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Close Combat
    - U-turn
    - Stone Edge
    - Gunk Shot


    Megazard's incredibly ugly Hariyama-Raichu BO
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Show Hide

    Hariyama @ Flame Orb
    Ability: Guts
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Facade
    - Close Combat
    - Bullet Punch
    - Heavy Slam

    Raichu-Alola @ Aloraichium Z
    Ability: Surge Surfer
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Substitute
    - Thunderbolt
    - Psychic
    - Nasty Plot

    Regirock @ Chople Berry
    Ability: Clear Body
    EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SpD
    Impish Nature
    - Counter
    - Stealth Rock
    - Rock Slide
    - Toxic

    Guzzlord @ Assault Vest
    Ability: Beast Boost
    EVs: 252 SpA / 196 SpD / 60 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Draco Meteor
    - Dark Pulse
    - Fire Blast
    - Sludge Wave

    Swanna @ Life Orb
    Ability: Keen Eye
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Hurricane
    - Roost
    - Scald
    - Defog

    Haunter @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Shadow Ball
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Trick
    - Destiny Bond


    HJAD's Lilligant BO basicallycopyingmelol
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Show Hide
    Hariyama @ Flame Orb
    Ability: Guts
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Facade
    - Heavy Slam
    - Bullet Punch

    Skuntank @ Lum Berry
    Ability: Aftermath
    EVs: 252 Atk / 108 SpD / 148 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Crunch
    - Sucker Punch
    - Pursuit
    - Taunt

    Lilligant @ Normalium Z
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Sleep Powder
    - Quiver Dance
    - Giga Drain
    - Hyper Beam

    Sableye @ Leftovers
    Ability: Prankster
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Foul Play
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Taunt
    - Recover

    Miltank @ Leftovers
    Ability: Thick Fat
    EVs: 248 HP / 240 SpD / 20 Spe
    Careful Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Stealth Rock
    - Milk Drink
    - Toxic
    - Seismic Toss

    Dugtrio-Alola @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Tangling Hair
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Iron Head
    - Stone Edge
    - Toxic


    Proof galbia can't build a team without defensive Carracosta
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Show Hide
    Hariyama @ Flame Orb
    Ability: Guts
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Facade
    - Bullet Punch
    - Knock Off

    Mesprit @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Psychic
    - Ice Beam
    - U-turn
    - Dazzling Gleam

    Carracosta @ Leftovers
    Ability: Solid Rock
    EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SpD
    Sassy Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Scald
    - Knock Off
    - Toxic

    Swanna @ Flyinium Z
    Ability: Hydration
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Hurricane
    - Scald
    - Roost
    - Defog

    Magmortar @ Assault Vest
    Ability: Vital Spirit
    EVs: 24 HP / 252 SpA / 232 Spe
    Mild Nature
    - Fire Blast
    - Thunderbolt
    - Earthquake
    - Hidden Power [Grass]

    Roselia @ Eviolite
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 212 SpD / 44 Spe
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Spikes
    - Giga Drain
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Synthesis


    Big s/o to everyone who gave me the teams
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 29, 2017
    jdcomix, Good J, Romanticist and 30 others like this.
  6. galbia

    galbia
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnus
    PU Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2012
    Messages:
    3,389
    i will be hosting a LIVE TOURNAMENT in 30 minutes, on smogtours. the winner (and more players depending on how big it is) will get reqs without having to ladder so be sure to join!

    you will find the thread to sign up in this forum at 3:30 EST
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/live-tournaments.341/

    if you miss this no worries since we will have more in the future!
    ceal and Melons-N-Soda like this.
  7. Anty

    Anty the dirt in your fries
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus
    PU Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2013
    Messages:
    2,927
    Been 2 days so unlocking

    Read the rules in the suspect post or we will infract
  8. Yung Dramps

    Yung Dramps

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2017
    Messages:
    398
    To say that my feelings on this suspect are mixed is an understatement. On one hand, Hariyama could be a force for good. We have tons of strong special attackers that are dominating the tier, such as Guzzlord, Pyroar and Drampa, which are overwhelming many teams. AV Hariyama with Thick Fat provides an easy check to these mons that can free up space for team-building. But on the other hand, Guts Hariyama is disgusting. The suspect post claims Mesprit, Archeops and Qwilfish are checks. This is blatantly false.

    -1 252+ Atk Guts Hariyama Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Qwilfish: 180-212 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
    252+ Atk Guts Hariyama Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mesprit: 165-195 (45.3 - 53.5%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO
    252+ Atk Hariyama Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 130-154 (44.6 - 52.9%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO (This is without a Guts burn btw)

    So yeah. In short, Qwilfish does not check unless it's extremely defensive, Mesprit can't switch in, and Archeops gets smacked by BP, which leaves it in Defeatist range. Also, remember that Qwilfish and Mesprit are not at all difficult to wear down over the course of the match due to both of them lacking reliable recovery. And we already know from Beta how Hariyama wipes out everything else barring maybe Gourgeist-XL or some other thing I forgot.

    In the end, I am in favor of Hariyama remaining banned. While Thick Fat Hariyama would be a great addition to the tier that would help fight against all the super powerful special sweepers, the damage and over-centralization it's Guts set would cause would basically counter-act the good it would do. If Guts Hariyama has enough checks to not be considered borked, feel free to prove it to me.
    Good J, Tuthur1 and KnightK like this.
  9. Megazard

    Megazard Practically Useless
    is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2013
    Messages:
    4,367
    i will be hosting a LIVE TOURNAMENT on Tuesday the third, on smogtours. the winner (and more players depending on how big it is) will get reqs without having to ladder so be sure to join!

    you will find the thread to sign up in this forum at 4:00 EST
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/live-tournaments.341/
  10. Rwby

    Rwby

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2014
    Messages:
    575
    Thought I'd drop my thoughts currently on Hariyama potentially re-entering the tier. It's undeniable that Hariyama is a good mon currently even with all of the Fighting-type resists we currently have, in-part due to how potent the wallbreaking Flame Orb Guts set is, and allows teams a Fire and Ice resist even on more offensive builds; this stops teams needing things like Type:Null and Munchlax (or even Lanturn) on teams that they shouldn't be due to the momentum drain they provide. Now, I'm currently indifferent on whether it enters the tier or stays BL4, mainly because I don't think it's that bad but if others think it truly is broken then I understand.

    [​IMG]
    Hariyama @ Assault Vest
    Ability: Thick Fat
    EVs: 252 Atk / 236 SpD / 20 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Fake Out
    - Bullet Punch
    - Knock Off

    This is the standard Assault Vest that was the most common set in ORAS NU and the less broken of the two by most people's standards, and to a large extent I'd agree. It adds to offense something they don't really have, which is a good Ice and Fire resist without needing to fall back on defensive and passive mons such as Munchlax or Lanturn. This is the version of Hariyama that people think is extremely healthy for the meta, however I'd like to play devil's advocate here and maybe suggest that Hariyama, even this version of it, could be unhealthy for the tier. Here are some logs of me and dibs talking:
    Logs (open)

    dibs-Today at 10:10 PM
    why do people keep using
    dark psychic fighting
    but special skunk

    Nora Valkyrie-Today at 10:48 PM
    dunno
    still a broken core
    u still banning dibs

    dibs-Today at 10:49 PM
    hmmm iunno
    im torn
    cos i used a troll team and then the goat team

    Nora Valkyrie-Today at 10:50 PM
    i think it may end up restricting building
    purely because of how easily
    you can throw it on teams

    dibs-Today at 10:50 PM
    it's like
    if you dont yama
    dibs-Today at 10:50 PM
    you lose to fire types and guzz
    Nora Valkyrie-Today at 10:50 PM
    yeh
    and offensive teams can run it
    unlike munch and such

    So, we were basically discussing how easily Hariyama can be slapped onto all different types of teams that require a simple overall blanket check to special attackers, mainly Fire and Ice types; and because of how easily it can be placed on teams it might end up making building less diverse, which is what we've both seen on the suspect ladder with cores such as Hariyama + Skuntank + Musharna, and other such cores. Does that make it a good addition to the tier or a one that'll over-centralise teams being forced to use it. With Fake Out and Bullet Punch it also has the ability to double-up with spike stacking teams and threaten more offensive builds like Weather and Trick Room, which does show how diverse it is at what it can do, even with the Assault Vest set.

    [​IMG]
    Hariyama @ Flame Orb
    Ability: Guts
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Facade
    - Bullet Punch
    - Heavy Slam

    Okay, so this is the set that people think is the most broken and the reason why it should not re-enter the tier at all, which is understandable given how powerful it's attacks are coming off a Guts boosted 120 Base Attack. Thanks to its ability things such as Weezing and Sableye are no longer able to status it and are straight beaten by it, Mesprit dies to two Facades after one switch in to Stealth Rocks, and even Bulk Up variants can straight beat things like Palossand and Gourgeist-XL. Clearly it seems like a broken mon, however, the meta is faster at the moment and things like Mesprit even though unable to directly switch in reliably pressure it immensely, Spike Stacking is such a common thing meaning it'll be chipped constantly and it no longer acts as a Fire or Ice resist. This doesn't mean I don't think it could be an issue, but I don't think some people are weighing the pros and cons of the offensive set currently.

    So to wrap up, I think it could be a healthy mon if introduced back in the tier, however it could also cause a lot of issues with both restricting building, with the Assault Vest set, and invalidating slower builds, with the Guts Flame Orb set. I don't think I'll be voting mainly because I don't currently have enough personal experience with the mon, but I would like to hear other people's opinions!
  11. jklioe

    jklioe

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2017
    Messages:
    31
    hello, everyone! i'm happy to chime in as i'm of the opinion that hariyama is one of those pokemon that seems a lot less of an issue in practice than in paper. it's still really good, but i'm not quite seeing the obvious part of what would make it ban-worthy.

    in response to the point Rwby made about av yama being centralizing, i don't believe this is the case at all, at least not in a negative way. there are plenty of other ice/fire resists such as magmortar, lanturn, and thick fat miltank which offer their own set of unique roles that can suit a team's needs and isn't outshined to the point where they aren't worth using. miltank can set up stealth rock and provide cleric support. lanturn absorbs volt switches, takes on things like the rotoms better, provides cleric support, and utilize volt switch for momentum-grabbing. magmortar can not only notably check lilligant and grasses much better, but even as a wallbreaker it is slightly faster and has arguably even fewer defensive checks than even guts hariyama

    speaking of the cores that av hariyama provides for a team, it's worth noting that it doesn't just pair well with skuntank or musharna. it pairs well with all of the defensive stuff that dropped in viability or usage in recent meta because wallbreakers such as magmortar, guzzord, abomosnow, etc have become such dominant presences in the metagame and are often free switches to them to the point where they've become borderline liabilities vs offensive teams that can fit them. this limits the number of reliable options for bulkier/defensive teams. examples are gourgeist (shoutouts to dundies for putting in a lot of work on this core in today's suspect tour!), gastrodon, sableye, granbull, togetic, etc. all greatly appreciate an extra backup answer to a lot of the bulky wallbreakers that are able to come in on them so well. i think av yama's presence would only add diverse to the tier and propel the usage of those defensive pokemon, as it allows for them to find more reliable use as they've gained another very reliable answer to their common checks/counterplay.

    as for guts hariyama, one of the main arguments that's i've seen the most out of anything else is that it "lacks reliable counters", but the number of checks and counters is still larger than what magmortar, zangoose, drampa, exeggutor-a, etc., all have, and unlike hariyama, there aren't a select few pokemon that are only usable because of that (like grumpig, in magmortar's case). in fact, if we were to go back to my argument about good partners to av yama, a lot of the pokemon that can circumstantially check it such as gourgeist, granbull, sableye, weezing, and qwilfish are options that i'd expect to see more use in teams. it's also slower than magmortar, zangoose, and offense generally has an increased number of mons in this meta than before that threaten it such as archeops and mesprit. and yes, i'm fully aware of 2hkos like facade on weezing and heavy slam on granbull, which leads to my next point:

    one of the other things that really don't make it seem broken in my eyes is how prediction-reliant it is in practice due to the nature of status recoil and how hazards often chip it well, both of which undermine its bulk. this is kind of a big deal, as it lets it stick around a bit less than other bulky wallbreakers like guzzlord. thus, mispredicting is a lot more costly than with the other wallbreakers, since it's not that difficult to be forced out from a healthy weezing, gourgeist, mesprit by clicking the wrong move. as for replays, i have some examples from today's suspect tour that are good examples with me using galbia's suspect team:
    • in my round with toy time king, when i brought in yama, i was in a position where i either bullet punch'd the archeops and risked weezing coming in and attacking/setting up, or 2hko the possible switch-in with facade. granted, i miscalced the first bp, and i thought he'd try to save arch later to maybe get off an endeavor on carracosta, but this is just an example of what i feel highlights its prediction-reliant nature.
    • vs pohjis, it was some really weird unconventional stall team but defensive qwilfish+rocky helmet (pretty good item on bulky qwil in general imo) made it really difficult to stay durable with yama to the point that it probably would have gotten one kill at best, and yama would have been pretty useful to break through other things. this is less about it's prediction flaw and more about the fact that residual damage makes it so difficult to keep it alive long enough to break through anything more than one or two pokemon if they carry a check.
    that having been said, i think there are enough countermeasures for the tier to handle guts yama, and i think that allowing for the use of av yama would only enhance viable options for teams.
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2017
    Good J, Slowbroth, 2xTheTap and 6 others like this.
  12. LordST

    LordST

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2016
    Messages:
    360
    Wanted to leave my two cents on this suspect after having laddered and achieved the reqs needed to vote:

    To get this out of the way first, I don't think Hariyama would be an overall healthy mon in the tier. The Guts set has about 2-3 GSIs, and they can all be easily chipped with hazards or just give free switches to other threatening mons (like Gourgeist letting Magmortar in for free as it uses Synthesis after taking a Heavy Slam). Hariyama isn't terribly difficult to revenge, but its solid bulk means you need a powerful super effective attack coming from a mon that isn't in range of Guts boosted BP to kill it. People have brought up that Yama isn't as threatening because it is prediction based, but i don't really find this to be the case. Hariyama has 3 powerful move options to choose from, and each of them will do a lot of damage to even resisted hits. You also have to take into account the burn nerf this gen meaning Yama will die half as quick as it did before. When you add on that Healing Wish Mesprit (an incredibly splashable mon in it's own right) is one of Hariyama's best partners because it can more or less negate this need to predict by bringing Yama back to full, I don't really think you can say that just predicting around it is sufficient counterplay.

    I think it's dangerous and frankly bad tiering philosophy to make the decision about this suspect based on how one of Hariyama's sets will be a healthy addition to the tier. AV Hariyama is a highly splashable mon on many builds and would certainly help make some mons in the tier that are incredibly hard to check such as Magmortar or Lilligant a bit more manageable. However whether or not AV Yama would be a healthy gain for the tier isn't the question this suspect is trying to answer. What we are trying to decide through this process is whether Guts Yama, the set in question, is too much for the tier to handle or is in fact balanced. When suspecting a mon we need to look at its strongest and arguably most broken set. Back during the Machoke suspect in ORAS, many argued that the Guts set was an incredibly healthy glue mon that kept a lot of mons in the tier at the time a solid check that was highly splashable. But in the end the No Guard set could not be ignored as it made the tier uncompetitive in nature so it was banned. A loose parallel can be drawn between these two mons in my mind. It would be nice if we could somehow have Hariyama without the Guts sets, but that simply just isn't the way Smogon does tiering. Anyways the point I'm trying to get at is that whether or not you think the Guts set is broken or balanced, don't vote to let Hariyama back into the tier just because you would like to have Hariyama's other more balanced sets.

    tl;dr
    • Hariyama + Healing Wish is stupid use it for free wins lol
    • don't vote to keep Yama just because the non-Flame Orb sets might make the tier more balanced
    THICC (open)

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2017
  13. Raiza

    Raiza The new era is coming along with an unstoppable swell
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2012
    Messages:
    1,391
    so i finally got reqs after a full day of continuous laddering :mad:
    i do intend to make a full comeback to pu so might as well post my thoughts
    sadly at least 30% of my opponents' teams were not good and another chunk of them didn't use hariyama but had teams with the most possible checks / counters to it (i found gourgeist in so many games especially at the start in low ladder), but I feel I still got a decent grasp on the situation also from reading other posts in this thread.

    at the start of the suspect i thought that hariyama was a really annoying mon in general, and my opinion hasnt changed much since: the guts set is of course very dangerous, and i wont prolong myself on why since good posts above already explained it, but the av variant, which i think is quite underrated at times, still hits hard, is splashable on almost every team and can facetank most special attackers. honestly i dont think having another heavy check / counter to special attackers is necessary, as the tier simply doesn't need it. personally ive never thought stuff such as lilligant or magmortar or whichever special attacker you want to consider was ever borderline broken or that problematic, unless i played the game badly and let it setup / snowball. the tier already has plenty of valid answers to these threats, to name some of them: guzz, magmortar itself, hitmonchan, eelektross which is decent trust me, other av stuff and some more mons but also the myriad of viable choice scarf users.
    also id rather directly deal with a specific threat thats already in the tier than trying to unban hariyama, which yes packs an av set that could be healthy, but also a very dangerous guts set that could be potentially unhealthy.

    at the moment the tier does have some mons that can deal with hariyama in some kind of forms. some examples are mesprit along with qwilfish and others. this makes hariyama a bit more manageable but the guts set when supported well(echoing what lordst said, healing wish support is amazing with this) will probably still cause a lot of sheanigans, and even if it doesnt i feel like the sheer addition / presence of hariyama will create even more centralization within building, making the already mentioned checks even more used than what they already are now(so theyll be basically mandatory), which i dont think is healthy if the tradeoff is having another check to special attackers

    for this and the reasons stated in above posts i think it might be better if the thicc hariyama stays where it is now, and thats not the pu tier
  14. Ares

    Ares
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 8, 2014
    Messages:
    2,339
    Your team gets rekt by sub Oricorio Ghost which the ladder seems to be spamming :pirate:. Haven't seen to much guts yama on opposing teams, or even AV yama. Could just be the late night laddering. Hopefully I get the time to finish laddering for reqs.
    G-Luke likes this.
  15. Of Moose & Men

    Of Moose & Men

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2014
    Messages:
    714
    Well, I got my reqs today, guess I'll regurgitate what has already been said.

    Guts Hariyama is a force to be reckoned with, and it can break many of the Pokemon in the tier with its obscene power, passable bulk, coverage, and access to decent priority in BP. Not to mention, many of the Pokemon that typically switch into it can be worn down through other methods, or muscled through. With that said, although I didn't see it nearly as much as Guts (no surprise there), AV Hariyama isn't as difficult to manage. It's nice to have another Special check to the likes of Liligant, Magmortar, and the like, but I don't feel that's enough reason to make me look passed how ridiculous the Guts set is.

    Guts Hariyama just tears through way too much for me to be comfortable with allowing it to remain PU. I'm voting to keep it Banned, and a lot would have to be said to get me to change my mind. I'm not too keen on the argument of "just carry 'X' or 'Y' with Max Def" when 'X' or 'Y' would rather run literally anything else.
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2017
    Good J and InfernoMonferno like this.
  16. Teddeh

    Teddeh This aint a scene it's a... GOD DAMNED ARMS RACE
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,109
    Well I suppose it's my turn to voice my opinions on Hariyama.

    From my experience, using and facing hariyama, I felt that the ladder wasn't the best place to really decide whether or not that Hariyama was broken or not, since half the teams I faced during my laddering experience weren't even using fighting resists, so if i were to use the pokemon of subject, I got a kill every time it came in.

    Nevertheless, I feel that I share a much different view of hariyama than those who have been posting in this thread so far. From my experience, when building a team, hariyama is a factor you needed to remember when building, as it is of course a dangerous pokemon with how it works and how it breaks bulkier teams, but I didn't at any point find it unmanageable or broken to the point where it was too good for what PU has to offer. PU at the moment has a large amount of fighting resists, mainly stemming from the large usage in mesprit, qwilfish, weezing, musharna etc, which leaves me to the point where I see at least 2-3 fighting checks on each team, without thinking "I need to over-prepare for hariyama", when the tools for beating hariyama are already being used. Of course Hariyama hits hard, but it's also prediction reliant too, although I can see the point of it having at least 3 very spammable moves in knock, cc and facade. The hariyama user won't get it right the whole time, and it will be forced out in a lot of occasions. From these points in the battle, it often finds a hard time coming back in if it has been chipped by rocky helmet or hazards. Not to mention Hariyama's low base speed means that there are a lot of things in the tier that can come in and then force it out from mesprits, pyroars, magmortars or oricorio birds, which are all dangerous special attackers.

    To respond to the need for GSI's for this pokemon and that it only has 3, I disagree and I don't think that you NEED to have a GSI to make hariyama manageable. The teams that will often need to run a GSI are defensive / bulkier teams like semi-stall, stall or extremely bulky balance, but these are also the teams that have the space to run a GSI too, since they are more defensively orientated teams. Whereas the rest of the meta, it's very offensively inclined, and it was like this without hariyama being in the tier too. These sorts of teams don't worry about yama because they've got enough on their team to deal with whatever hariyama can bring to the table, or will often go for a 1 to 1 trade where you get off enough damage to keep hariyama low and hence make it death fodder for the rest of the game.

    What if you are not facing a guts hariyama? then it becomes a lot more manageable due to its lack of power, although it's a lot bulkier to take down. Nevertheless, I don't think either set is unmanageable in the slightest and I believe PU has all the tools to deal with this pokemon.

    What does Hariyama add to the tier? Well this is what I am focusing on, because I don't feel that its offensive sets are broken at all, but the AV thick fat set adds a lot to core diversity in the tier when it comes to team building. It will help teams check ice, fire and generally special attackers in one slot for their team, whilst role compressing a lot of necessary positions in one slot, allowing for more pokemon to be used, hence promoting a different side to team building. I feel that this adds more than what it takes away with its guts orb set.

    Hence in conclusion;
    • You don't need GSI's to cope with yama, unless you're running stallier teams, then by which you have the space to run a GSI.
    • The tier is already heavily offensively inclined, most teams don't even need to think about changing to beat hariyama due to the pokemon already being used, e.g mesprit or qwilfish.
    • AV yama will add a lot to the tier diversity.
    For all things considered, I will be voting to UNBAN.
    tenkai, Cheryl., Shaneghoul and 16 others like this.
  17. LuckOverSkill

    LuckOverSkill

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2010
    Messages:
    659
    I've been playing a bit on the ladder, though not as much as I would have liked, and spectated a bit of the suspect tour of yesterday. I'm going to start with the Guts set, which is the most obvious problem with the mon.

    From my observations, Hariyama seems like a mon that should stay away from PU, for a bunch of reasons. It's a very bulky and powerful attacker, who has a couple option that are very powerful to complete its coverage, with Knock Off and Facade + the priority of choice being very common on Guts sets, I've been running Heavy Slam over Facade because it actually allows you to muscle though Sableye, and even though usually it costs you over half of your HPs (if a crit doesn't happen, which really should in most cases), it's well worth it in most cases.

    The problem with all the "classic" fighting resists in the tier, it's that none of them actually beats Hariyama, unless they are 1v1 against it from the get go, which is a bit of an unrealistic scenario. Mesprit gets chipped away easily, and dies to Knock Off + Close Combat + SR, even if it's holding a Colbur Berry and has 252 EVs in HPs. Qwilfish is on the same boat really, as double Facade KOs it, and CC does around 30%, meaning that if you aren't running Black Sludge and SR are on the field, this is a easy 3HKO. Weezing can't really use Will-o-Wisp or it risks giving Hariyama a free switch in, and can't really Wisp expecting it to switch out, but with some Speed investment and some intelligent Pain Split usage it's probably the mon that fares better on the list. Musharna is 2HKOd by both Knock Off (unless Colbur Berry) and Facade, with SR on the field.

    It's not too hard to give Hariyama a free switch in too, which makes it all the worse. A lot of popular mons can't really do much against it to begin with, aside from doing some damage to it, examples of popular Pokémon that can give Hariyama a free switch are Skuntank (Adamant Poison Jab doesn't even do 50% to 0 Def Hariyama), Lanturn, Regirock, Sableye (Heavy Slam only), Ferroseed, Gourgeist, and Miltank. This is only considering the beginning of the viability rankings, and assuming average battle conditions (no double switches, no insane plays, think you want to SR with Regirock, because otherwise that Oricorio looks really threatening, or need to Heal Bell with Lanturn, or just Body Slam with Miltank for pitiful damage).

    And there are a lot of ways to get Hariyama in safely, just check all the possible U-Turn / Volt Switch users that can give Hariyama a free switch. Mesprit, Primeape and Lanturn are the obvious ones, as they are by far the most widely used ones, and then there's a list of mons that aren't as common, or don't commonly run U-Turn, for example Specs Oricorio, Raichu Alola, Manectric, Raticate-Alola, and a bunch of other mons that are way down lower in the VR, and that I could mention but there's no real need to.

    So beating Hariyama with minimal support becomes an actual problem, this is without considering the popularity of Healing Wish Mesprit, that can easily replenish your Hariyama after it had to tank a powerful hit that left it low on HPs, ready to wreck havoc once again.

    AV Hariyama is problematic on a different level. Not only it adds problems guessing the set you're facing, but it also renders a couple other Pokémon obsolete, which hurts diversity quite a bit, since AV Hariyama is such a no brainer add to a huge amount of teams, because of its characteristics, and I don't like the direction the tier is currently taking already, where it feels a bit too top heavy (the top Pokémon are really fucking good, and the middle of the pack is just obsolete compared to them). Hariyama just makes the problem worse, but I assume that's just personal preference I guess.

    Ultimately, adding Hariyama to the tier would probably have a bad effect on the tier's diversity, as mons that are already run plenty, such as Mesprit, Qwilfish and Musharna would probably rise even more in usage, while mons that have trouble muscling past AV Hariyama would lose usage.

    Ultimately, I'd vote ban.
    Cheryl., Aaronboyer, HJAD and 11 others like this.
  18. Raiza

    Raiza The new era is coming along with an unstoppable swell
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2012
    Messages:
    1,391
    just wanted to ''quickly'' respond to this post, some healthy discussion in this thread instead of posting my opinion and then dipping could be good
    this is very minor, but regarding ladder stuff yeah it isn't the best place to decide whether or not yama is broken, still, saying that half of the teams you faced didn't have a fight resist at all might be pushing it a bit too much. yes i know i also said a bunch of the teams i faced were bad but despite being bad they did carry a fight resist( in fact i said that i found a fuckton of gourgeists in low ladder actually, and high ladder teams were really antihariyama, which just proves my point even more of how hariyama makes the meta more stale and not diverse at all), and i think the latter is more believable, just wanted to point this out but it mightve just been a casualty

    now, lets get to the spicy part: you say that hariyama isnt unmanageable or broken which in some forms(guts set really is bothersome, and theres still many options to explore with it) might be true as i already said in my previous post, but thats not the exact problem me personally and probably other pro hariyama ban users have. the main problem i have is what its inclusion in the tier will cause on building and the rest of the meta.
    first of all you cant really base your opinion on fighting resists being good answers when talking about guts hariyama given its coverage options which consist not only in cc but also 140 bp facade and most of the time 120/100 bp heavy slam, or knock depending on your necessities.
    second of all no hariyama isnt prediction reliant: you said yourself that it has access to 3 very spammable moves, and in most scenarios if you face a fight immunity/qwilfish you just spam the other options available that have not many available switchins as luck>skill said. the hariyama user 8/10 times will get it right given how vast the number of targets hit by facade / slam / knock is. also when and if hariyama does get chipped by rocky helmet or hazards sometimes it already claimed at times 2 victims because of the lack of direct answers, also if you run hwish mesprit it isnt a problem(Mesprit is the same mon that will be even more used if hariyama is unbanned, what a coincidence), i know we shouldnt bring up other mons but just wanted to let people know

    whew got through the annoying part. about the building/meta/GSI stuff, ill get through this quickly: you dont need gsis to check yama on offensive teams thats right, but the same applies to ice and fire mons that you said including hariyama will be healthy for, not for the same reasons but still(hariyama is more tanky and slow, while they are faster and frailer). these actually have gsis as well, and anyway if these threats were so bothering they would've already been suspect tested or caused uproar in the community by now. i know this is a bit of a loose comparison but i hope i got my point across. teams that will need a gsi for hariyama (defensive / stall-ish teams) will be in great difficulty because counters/gsis for this are arguably non existent or niche such as gourg(which can be ran but its like the only option they have with palossand), so they're screwed in favour of offensive teams that can soft check yama and run the threats you want yama to check, so thats overcentralization and less diversity in playstyle as well as building. yama doesnt add anything to building that we desperatly need, instead one aspect of its inclusion would be overshadowing and making some mons we have now more niche and less used.
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2017
    tenkai, Cheryl., Aaronboyer and 10 others like this.
  19. cabforpitt

    cabforpitt

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2009
    Messages:
    41
    I went into this test expecting to want to ban Hariyama. However, when I actually faced it on ladder, it was not anywhere near as threatening as I had expected. It's nothing special vs offense due to being slow and providing it's own chip damage. It does pressure fatter teams, but they already run mons like qwilfish that naturally check Hariyama. Maybe I/the ladder were overprepared for it, but Hariyama didn't feel more threatening than other top ladder threats to me.
    Good J likes this.
  20. Megazard

    Megazard Practically Useless
    is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2013
    Messages:
    4,367
    So I was pretty on the fence about this suspect until, like, yesterday. Guts is really, really good but it's undeniable that it's checked by plenty of Pokemon that are already common and used a lot. It pairs excellently with already good Pokemon like Oricorio-Sensu, but it also encourages intelligent play. It's got a lot of customization and can end games hard if you get some good predictions off whereas it doesn't suffer quite as much for mispredicting, and overall I'd probably end up voting do not unban just for the presence of Guts alone. I can certainly see why people would feel like it's a fair addition to the metagame along with a much healthier AV set for keeping Fire-types in check.
    But the thing is, is AV really healthy for the metagame? I think there's been an inherent assumption that it's good to have a tank like Hariyama around, and this is something I'm not entirely sold on either. It's absolutely easier to check than Guts, but it's also really stupid with decent support. Of the Fighting-types that we have, none are as good at just spamming moves like AV Hariyama. Knock Off is always free, CC chips away at the Qwilfish and the Mesprit rather quickly, and if people would just stop running Fake Out (or Bullet Punch, either way), I think they'd find that a surprise Earthquake can make a match go downhill real fast. My experience has been that this mon is legitimately not fun to have around and I'm not sure why being this incredible blanket check when it's in large part just for two Fire-types (that we could ban if they became a problem) is so important that we should also introduce the spooky Guts set. In a situation like this where we're debating the merits of allowing the Guts set to come back into the meta, I do think that this has validity in determining whether or not we should free Hariyama, and that's why I'll be voting to leave it banned.
    tenkai, pancake, Cheryl. and 7 others like this.
  21. HJAD

    HJAD
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2013
    Messages:
    957
    Hi, so this is my post for the recent Hariyama suspect taking place. As far as im concerned; there are 2 main sets that Hariyama run, the "broken" Guts set, and the "balancing" AV set. I won't be discussing the AV set too much since that has already been said and done. Its by far the least controversial of the 2 and I think by now people who are on the edge of Ban or Do Not Ban aren't really considering it as a broken element of Hariyama, its been really nice to use so far from my perspective as an extra option for Fire / Ice Types but especially Fire Types. Guts is the element which really concerns a ton of PU users; and it really comes down to a simple trade off. There is no doubt Guts Hariyama is very good, but how good is it. Is it "bad" enough so that AV Hariyama can come back with little implication on creativity in the builder, or is it a centralizing mega threat which even a good amount of preperation would lead to you potentially losing.

    So there are several balancing aspects to the Guts Hariyama set. First off, i would like to dispell the myth that this is a be all and end all wallbreaker that forces sacks every time it comes in. There are a good few 100% switchins; that include Gourgeist-S, Pallosand and (pain split) Qwilfish, as well as several offensive switchins like Mesprit / Musharna which can tank a hit and threaten the KO back. Hariyama; compared to the likes of Ursaring and Zangoose which are similarly powerful wallbreakers, is nowhere near as efficient as breaking bulky cores that people tend to enjoy. Its not as powerful, has more 100% switchins, the meta tends towards poison types thanks to tspikes which naturally resist fighting and Mesprit and Qwilfish are very good checks and are both very popular pokemon. Hariyama is also much slower in comparison; so looking at it from a pure wallbreaking standpoint and on paper, Hariyama doesn't even seem that daunting in the light of an Ursaring in comparison. Thats why I will always disagree with anyone that says Hariyama is broken because it has no defensive counterplay. We dont have defensive counterplay for Ursaring, which is faster and more efficient at beating defensive cores.

    Pokemon isn't played on paper though; its clear to see that the threat level that Guts Hariyama possesses is much higher than the likes of Ursaring, and I believe that there are 2 main differentiating factors that seperate Hariyama from the similar Ursaring. You can't hard switch into an Ursaring on anything for a free attempt at wallbreaking, you often have to try and play around free turns, momentum and double switches to make the most of Ursaring. This isn't the case with Hariyama. You can use its pure typing to switch in hard on the likes of Regirock, Ferroseed and Defensive Carracosta in order to punish defensive cores. This I feel is the #1 key differentiating factor since it essentially means you can consistently force switchins; rather than rely on your opponents moves which might not be predictable at times to let Ursaring in for free. This element turns Hariyama into a much more practical wallbreaker in comparison to Ursa, because even though at pure breaking it isnt as good, its excellent at finding oppurtuinities in order to wallbreak courtesy of its typing and the metas reliance on rock types and physical meta checks. The second differentiating factor even though being substantially less important is access to Bullet Punch as a catch all priority move. I didnt think that this was really a huge thing that gave Hariyama clout over the likes of Ursaring but after playing with / against it, BP has been such a pain to play around. Its practicality as a move that means that, you need a pokemon with semidecent HP in order to revenge kill Hariyama. This means the Pokemon is much less susceptible against the likes of offense, and can almost psuedo make use of its own wallbreaking utility. I feel like these 2 aspects really change the game, and take the impetus away from Ursaring as a viable counter consideration to Hariyama.

    Taking all this in consideration, ill be voting for keeping Hariyama banned. Yes, it has a few 100% switchins, but it causes so much concern in the teambuilder that; even though an AV set would allow the meta to diversify in terms of its Fire / Ice checks, it would also centralise the meta towards Gourg and Pallosand. You would 100% feel under pressure to either build flat out offense, or put these pokemon on your team, which isn't condusive to a fun and creative teambuilder, or a meta which leads to the better player winning most of the time.
    tl;dr, hariyama isnt a disgusting breaker with 0 switches, its got a rlly good typing which allow it to pound on defensive cores and switch in constantly in comparison to other similar breakers and bp is rlly good. will lead to a centralised meta around this 1 physical fighting threat, and will damage teambuiding creativity as a result.
    Tuthur1, TJ, pancake and 14 others like this.
  22. 2xTheTap

    2xTheTap
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2007
    Messages:
    604
    Hello! Just here to post some of my thoughts on the Hariyama suspect.

    When talking about Hariyama's place in the tier, many pro-ban users (here, in chat, and on Discord) seem to gloss over how easy it can be to wear Hariyama down via entry hazards and other indirect sources of damage, or if they have addressed this idea directly, I've noticed that they've understated this weakness a bit by citing how easy it is to compensate for this through the use of moves like Healing Wish or pseudo HW effects like Z Parting Shot and Z Memento. While it's certainly true that pairing Hariyama with HW support is an effective way to build around it, our thicc sumo friend really struggles to stay healthy in a meta wherein entry hazards are so prevalent, due to how usable Pokemon like Qwilfish and Ferroseed are currently. Ultimately, I've come to the conclusion that, despite how threatening its Guts set is on paper and how few guaranteed switch-ins it has, Hariyama is still manageable even despite this due to its lack of reliable recovery, its reliance on teammates for entry hazard removal and Healing Wish support so that it can avoid being damaged too much prematurely, and its Speed tier (while this is mitigated by Bullet Punch to a certain extent, healthy offensive checks are still effective in pressuring and consequently forcing Hariyama out, which in turn forces it to take further damage from entry hazards).

    I grappled with this notion at the beginning of the suspect and wondered if general offensive pressure really was enough to counterbalance Hariyama. After all, its Guts set easily scores KOs each time it's able to gain switch-in initiative (or, if it doesn't, it tends to maul whatever Fighting check switched into it). Additionally, burn damage is halved this gen, and while that can play a role in wearing Hariyama down, the damage by itself is rather insignificant. What's more, Hariyama really doesn't have to predict much at all to do well (if there's a Fighting check like Qwilfish or Mesprit, clicking Facade is a really simple play, or even if you mispredict, Hariyama still chips Fighting checks down easily enough with STAB Guts CC). There are of course other slow wallbreakers in the tier with a similarly small number of GSIs, but unlike the others, it can use priority to overcome some of its offensive checks (Archeops mostly). I couldn't reach a conclusion through just reading these posts or talking with other players, so I decided to build 4-5 teams to answer some questions I had in order to ascertain whether Hariyama should have a place in PU or not:

    1) Firstly, is simple offensive pressure through the use of entry hazards and offensive checks enough to counterbalance how threatening Hariyama is (its Guts set in particular)?

    - To answer this, I built a generic entry hazard stacking team with a standard core of Lanturn / Weezing / Ferroseed, supported by Scarf Primeape and Sableye to protect entry hazards via a Defog deterrent and bulky spinblocker. I finished the team out with Kangaskhan for some additional speed control (priority) and as a means to abuse entry hazards once they were set.

    Test 1 - Specs Lanturn Bulky Hazard Stack

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Many replays like the one below occurred, where I was able to wear Hariyama down with Spikes, SR, and Leech Seed. Keeping my offensive team healthy in the face of Guts Hariyama was generally easy as I had a couple of Fighting checks keeping Hariyama at bay, while the rest of the team focused on racking up chip damage and cleaning up after hazards did their job. Sableye doesn't do nearly as much as it did in beta, but I still used it here as a Fighting immunity to protect Ferroseed and Kangaskhan, as well as spinblock (it's still okay, but it deserves a drop in viability imo). You could easily finish this team out with standard Palossand / Qwilfish / Specs or Z Mesprit / Ferroseed / Scarf Primeape / Kangaskhan too, if you wanted to change out Sableye and Weezing for a Hariyama answer with more reliable recovery while maintaining Levitate, a breaker, and a Volt immunity.

    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pususpecttest-640493191

    2) Secondly, is Healing Wish and Defog / Rapid Spin support enough to push Hariyama over the edge and cause unwinnable situations for my opponent (or if my opponent used this method of building with Hariyama, would I auto-lose if this strategy were employed against me despite preparing for Hariyama?)

    - The answer to this was more unclear, but after finding a large number of test matches with this team concept in mind, with both AV and Guts variants of Hariyama being used, I never felt that this method of building made Hariyama unbeatable. I did face a few of these teams (LST's squad dump used by someone), but these matches were more determined by skill level rather than who had a Hariyama with team support.

    Test 2 - AV Hariyama Balance

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Basically, Pursuit Skuntank absorbs Toxic Spikes, provides Defog support, and traps Psychic-types for Hariyama. The team looks like it could be using Z Lilligant, but I chose Scarf Healing Wish Lilligant to keep Hariyama healthy instead, while using Z Oricorio-Sensu as a strong Fighting check and win condition. Hariyama provides support to Lilligant and Oricorio-Sensu by checking most Sucker Punch users, beating Guzzlord and Magmortar, and generally checking special attackers that would give them problems. The rest of the team is glue to support these 3 and could be finished differently to supply the team with a better defensive switchin for Guts Hariyama, but this is honestly a fine setup that didn't yield any losses the few times I used it.

    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pususpecttest-640088772
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pususpecttest-640086811

    Test 3 - Guts Hariyama Balance

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Rather than Hariyama being in charge of switching into Ice- and Fire-types like its AV counterpart above, bulky Lanturn does this instead on this team so that Hariyama can focus more on wallbreaking. The team has two bulky pivots in Lanturn and defensive Mesprit, so as to bring in Hariyama for free with Guts already activated. Skuntank and Mesprit are here for Healing Wish and Defog support, which is useful in allowing Hariyama to break teams continuously. As a final slot, Oricorio-Sensu was added as an offensive Fighting check, Scarfer, and as a spinblocker (while it cannot switch into Hitmonchan directly, its Fighting STABs are often telegraphed and that's enough for Ori-Sensu to gain switch-in initiative). Ferroseed was used as the team's Normal resist, as the extra residual damage it provides via entry hazards and Leech Seed is helpful in allowing Oricorio-Sensu to clean up. Lol replays weren't saved, but it performed similarly to the team above. If nothing else, you can use this to get last second reqs.


    3) Lastly, if I used Guts Hariyama without the above support (i.e. no entry hazard removal / no Healing Wish), would its lack of recovery pose an issue?

    - I had another Hariyama team for this, but the offensive teams with Guts Hariyama (without HW / Defog support) were honestly just inferior builds, as Hariyama had to be played much more carefully, as if it were on a timer once it was sent out. I nearly lost it to Slowbroth's Archeops in the replay below after a miscalculation in Bullet Punch's damage, but I managed to save it for taking out his Gastrodon late-game (just barely). In the second replay, I had to break past my opponent's Mesprit, Archeops, AND Qwilfish for Hariyama to win, which I was able to do eventually, but it really shows how the meta has evolved and how common Fighting checks are without purposeful planning for them during the teambuilding process. In sum, these two replays in particular do a decent job in demonstrating why Hariyama should be using team support options like HW and Defog, as its bulk is sometimes overstated, and if it does require that support while at the same time PU has many competent Fighting checks, both defensive and offensive ones, then I don't really see the need to keep it banned on the basis that Guts sets are too much for the tier.

    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pususpecttest-639593940 vs Slowbroth
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pususpecttest-639568059

    In any case, this post is rather long already, so I'm going to end it here. Pretty much leaning keep Hariyama right now though.
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2017
    Slurmz, uhuhuhu7, tenkai and 12 others like this.
  23. Seegoth

    Seegoth

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2015
    Messages:
    4
    Many opinions have been given, and I consider HJAD's one the closest to mine. Of course, when giving our opinions on the Guts set, the first thing that comes to mind (and in battle) is the major attack and coverage (including the useful priority from Bullet Punch), but overall it has more than just great offense: massive HP and good typing. That's why at first I didn't understand the Ursaring comparison of HJADs post, though I later saw that it was cause he wanted to pay attention to other traits.

    Power + Massive HP + Good Typing = great opportunities. Even if the opponent has the mentioned checks and counters, you can dent them with a powerful Knock off on their switch in and then withdraw Hariyama, waiting for a new opportunity that it will surely have.

    And well, anything that overcentralizes a low tier imo isnt interesting. From my experience in the past month, mons like Gourgeist, Qwilfish and Palossand weren't even that common before the suspect test (though Qwilfish is still a pretty good one without Hariyama). The only one that was really common is Mesprit, and it isnt even its best defensive answer.

    I will be voting for a ban.
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
  24. Of Moose & Men

    Of Moose & Men

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2014
    Messages:
    714
    This comment may come off as arrogant, but I really don't intend for it to. I just don't see how you can think a statement like this can be used in defense of Hariyama. "Evolved" is a stretch, conformed is better fit. And even after conforming, STILL doesn't manage to do the job it was intended.

    The three checks/"counters" that have been riddled off all through this thread were in that game, and taken out by the other 5 Pokemon on your team. Mesprit, Qwilfish and Archeops were in that battle, and because you built around taking those Pokemon out (whether intentional or not), it didn't matter, and go figure, Hariyama would have had little to no trouble doing what it's supposed to. Half of the opponents team were the premier checks/"counters" to Hariyama, and they did not do their job. And, even if you don't factor in that your other Pokemon took them down, all of them were in range of Hariyama to finish off with the respective attack. And that is precisely the issue.

    On paper, as long you refuse to acknowledge the other 5 Pokemon, entry hazards and/or status, Mesprit, Qwilfish and sometimes Archeops can be problematic for Hariyama. But the second you remove the tunnel vision and realize Hazards chip these Pokemon down into range, your team mates can be ran specifically to remove those Pokemon, and Hariyama can capitalize on that, viewpoints change, at least I feel they should.
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
    amber lamps, TJ, tenkai and 2 others like this.
  25. SergioRules

    SergioRules

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2015
    Messages:
    121
    Okay, so I don't have reqs yet, but I feel like I have more games in this suspect than anyone bc I've made 5 different alts I wanted to post my thoughts on yama thus far since it's nearing the end of the test.

    I for one was originally on the side of having yama remain banned as it just seemed far too powerful especially from when it was PU before it got banned. However, since that ban, we got tier shifts in Qwilfish and Mesprit that made yama seem much better checked in the tier. And the overall trend in using Fighting types gave Hariyama some competition with Hitmonchan's utility, Crabominable's usefulness on Trick Room, and Gurdurr's STAB priority. Guts Hariyama is still a fantastic wallbreaker though, and Thick Fat provides a lot of reliable checks to big special threats like Abomasnow, Magmortar, and Pyroar. When it was announced to be suspected, I immediately went to the mind set that it'd be broken and there would be a 100% vote for Do Not Unban. But after playing so many goddamn ladder games, I found that I never really felt like my teambuilding was restricted by Guts yama as my usual Fighting checks could normally do the job. That was until an EQ variant bopped my Qwilfish. And a Heavy Slam variant bopped my Granbull. And a Knock Off variant (which is bad, please don't use) bopped my Mesprit and Oricorio-Sensu. Yama is just so versatile that if you think it's Guts with a certain coverage move but it turns out to be a different one, your whole game plan can be destroyed. And the Thick Fat version made it difficult for offensive checks to take it down such as Z-Hurricane Oricorios and offensive Mesprits. Over the whole course of the suspect I've been going back and forth, but I think if you asked me to vote right now, it'd be for Do Not Unban. Hopefully I can get reqs tomorrow before 5pm and actually make that happen.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)