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Metagame NP: SM RU Stage 0 (Beta): Green Light (Talonflame Banned)

Discussion in 'SM RarelyUsed' started by atomicllamas, Mar 10, 2017.

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  1. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas but then what's left of me?
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a defending SPL Champion
    RU Co-Leader

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    RU beta is finally underway! In the beta phase, RU is going to be volatile. You can expect many quickbans to occur, as decided by the RU Council. These quickbans will probably happen in batches, meaning multiple Pokemon at once. Almost everything that gets quick banned will be tested at a later date; the primary objective right now is to create a stable and playable metagame. A separate thread will be made about the council once we get the RU subforum fully set up.

    Here is the initial banlist for RU Beta.

    Many of you played RU Alpha, and the following changes have occurred:

    +[​IMG] Necrozma moved from UU to RU
    +[​IMG] Kingdra moved from UU to RU
    +[​IMG]Flygon moved from UU to RU
    -[​IMG]Haxorus moved from RU to UU
    -[​IMG]Entei moved from RU to UU
    +[​IMG]Mantine moved from UU to RU
    -[​IMG]Nidoking moved from RU to UU
    +[​IMG]Dhelmise moved from UU to RU
    +[​IMG] Bewear moved from UU to RU
    -[​IMG]Darmanitan moved from RU to UU
    +[​IMG]Kommo-o moved from UU to RU
    -[​IMG]Alomomola moved from RU to UU

    Additionally: Suicune is banned.[​IMG]

    Please use this thread to post your thoughts on the metagame as well as any questions about the tiering process.

    np: Green Light, Lorde
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2017
    ryan, Senpai D.M, StreetOhio and 33 others like this.
  2. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas but then what's left of me?
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a defending SPL Champion
    RU Co-Leader

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    The RU Tiering Dictator Leader (me) has decided to ban Suicune from RU.

    reasoning (open)

    Suicune has proven over the course of RU alpha to be both an extremely centralizing and overpowered threat. Between its standard CroCune set, VinCune, and several other variations (CM + Roar + Rest, CM + Sub + 2 attacks, etc.) it is almost impossible for any team to be adequately prepared for Suicune. And teams which are prepared for Suicune struggle to deal with it long term as Suicune's typing and bulk grant it much more longevity than its typical checks. The ability to blanket check a majority of the tier while still functioning as a win con in any given team is simply too much for RU.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2017
    StraightEdgeNexus, Sas0, 6ti and 39 others like this.
  3. ante

    ante
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris an Administrator
    PS Policy Head

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    Posting my support for Lorde as the new RU co-leader.
    Fizix, StreetOhio, Meru and 20 others like this.
  4. Eclipse

    Eclipse Cause all I do is dance
    is a Contributor to Smogon

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    Ah glad to see the Beta start up, looking forward to this meta it seems fun as hell; kicking off the Beta, I created speed tiers (I didn't notice if anyone made any for Alpha, so I just went and made them all just right now). If there's stuff you guys want me to remove/add, PM me on showdown whenever i'm online to make some quick changes. Enjoy em, and looking forward to a kick-ass meta!

    Speed Tiers (open)

    Tier 0: Boost Required


    744 / Minior / 120 +Spe / 252 / +2
    736 / Hawlucha / 118 / +Spe / 252 / +2
    710 / Lycanroc / 112 / +Spe / 252 / +2
    678 / Minior / 120 / Neutral / 252 / +2
    670 / Hawlucha / 118 / Neutral / 252 / +2
    646 / Lycanroc / 112 / Neutral / 252 / +2
    634 / Yanmega | Sharpedo / 95 / +Spe / 252 / +2
    578 / Yanmega | Sharpedo / 95 / Neutral / 252 / +2
    568 / Stoutland / 80 / +Spe / 252 / +2
    534 / Slurpuff / 72 / +Spe / 252 / +2
    525 / Dodrio / 110 / +Spe / 252 / +1
    524 / Cloyster / 70 / +Spe / 252 / +2
    518 / Stoutland / 80 / Neutral / 252 / +2
    492 / Flygon / 100 / +Spe / 252 / +1
    486 / Slurpuff / 72 / Neutral / 252 / +2
    480 / Minior-Meteor / 60 / +Spe / 252 / +2
    478 / Cloyster / 70 / Neutral / 252 / +2
    478 / Dodrio / 110 / Neutral / 252 / +1
    475 / Kyurem | Yanmega | Sharpedo / 95 / +Spe / 252 / +1
    459 / Venomoth / 90 / +Spe / 252 / +1
    450 / Hitmonlee / 87 / +Spe / 252 / +1
    447 / Rotom-Heat | Rotom-Mow / 86 / +Spe / 252 / +1
    442 / Heracross | Kommo-o | Kingdra / 85 / +Spe / 252 / +1
    438 / Minior-Meteor / 60 / Neutral / 252 / +2
    433 / Kyurem | Yanmega | Sharpedo / 95 / Neutral / 252 / +1
    426 / Venusaur | Gardevoir | Braviary | Medicham / 80 / +Spe / 252 / +1
    420 / Feraligatr / 78 / +Spe / 252 / +1
    418 / Venomoth / 90 / Neutral / 252 / +1
    397 / Tryantrum / 71 / +Spe / 252 / +1


    Tier 1: Max Neutral Base 126 - Max Positive Base 130


    394 / Jolteon | Aerodactyl / 130 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    393 / Hoopa / 70 / +Spe / 252 / +1
    386 / Talonflame / 126 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    383 / Swellow / 125 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    382 / Feraligatr / 78 / Neutral / 252 / +1
    381 / Ribombee / 124 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    377 / Noivern / 122 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    372 / Minior / 120 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    368 / Hawlucha / 118 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    366 / Salazzle / 117 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    363 / Whimsicott / 116 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    361 / Sneasel | Persian-Alola / 115 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    360 / Porygon2 / 60 / +Spe / 252 / +1
    355 / Lycanroc / 112 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    353 / Tornadus / 111 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    351 / Talonflame / 126 / Neutral / 252 / +0


    Tier 2: Max Positive Base 86 - Max Positive Base 110


    350 / Espeon | Dodrio | Froslass | Dugtrio-Alola / 110 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    348 / Heliolisk | Galvantula | Durant / 109 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    346 / Virizion / 108 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    339 / Zoroark | Mismagius | Cryogonal / 105 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    339 / Minior / 120 / Neutral / 252 / +0
    335 / Hawlucha / 118 / Neutral / 252 / +0
    328 / Flygon | Shaymin | Glalie-Mega / 100 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    323 / Lycanroc / 112 / Neutral / 252 / +0
    322 / Sigilyph / 97 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    319 / Dodrio / 110 / Neutral / 252 / +0
    317 / Kyurem | Yanmega | Sharpedo / 95 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    311 / Bruxish / 92 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    306 / Lucario | Roserade | Venomoth | Moltres | Meloetta / 90 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    300 / Hitmonlee / 87 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    299 / Shaymin | Flygon / 100 / Neutral / 252 / +0
    298 / Rotom-Heat | Rotom-Mow / 86 / +Spe / 252 / 0


    Tier 3: Max Neutral Base 71 to Max Positive Base 85


    295 / Heracross | Toxicroak | Kommo-o | Kingdra / 85 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    289 / Kyurem | Yanmega | Sharpedo / 95 / Neutral / 252 / +0
    287 / Milotic / 81 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    284 / Venusaur | Gardevoir | Braviary | Medicham / 80 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    283 / Bruxish / 92 / Neutral / 252 / +0
    282 / Necrozma / 79 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    280 / Feraligatr / 78 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    279 / Lucario | Roserade | Venomoth | Moltres / 90 / Neutral / 252 / +0
    276 / Nidoqueen / 76 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    273 / Hitmonlee / 87 / Neutral / 252 / +0
    269 / Heracross | Toxicroak | Kingdra / 85 / Neutral / 252 / +0
    268 / Whimsicott / 116 / Neutral / 0 / +0
    267 / Slurpuff / 72 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    265 / Honchkrow | Tyrantrum / 71 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    262 / Cloyster | Hoopa / 70 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    261 / Milotic / 81 / Neutral / 252 / +0
    259 / Venusaur | Stoutland | Shiftry | Medicham / 80 / Neutral / 252 / +0
    257 / Necrozma / 79 / Neutral / 252 / +0
    255 / Feraligatr / 78 / Neutral / 252 / +0
    251 / Nidoqueen / 76 / Neutral / 252 / +0
    251 / Emboar / 65 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    243 / Slurpuff / 72 / Neutral / 252 / +0
    241 / Honchkrow | Tyrantrum / 71 / Neutral / 252 / +0


    Tier 4: Min Neutral Base 80 - Max Positive Base 60


    240 / Bewear | Porygon2 | Minior-Meteor / 60 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    239 / Cloyster | Hoopa / 70 / Neutral / 252 / +0
    236 / Comfey | Flygon / 100 / Neutral / 0 / +0
    230 / Goodra / 80 / Neutral / 136 / +0
    229 / Crawdaunt / 55 / +Spe / 252 / +0
    229 / Emboar / 65 / Neutral / 252 / +0
    226 / Uxie / 95 / Neutral / 0 / +0
    219 / Bewear | Minior-Meteor / 60 / Neutral / 252 / +0
    216 / Golbat / 90 / Neutral / 0 / +0
    210 / Chesnaught / 64 / Neutral / 184 / +0
    209 / Crawdaunt | Machamp / 55 / Neutral / 252 / +0
    208 / Rotom-Heat / 86 / Neutral / 0 / +0
    207 / Nidoqueen / 76 / Neutral / 76 / +0
    206 / Gligar | Cresselia / 85 / Neutral / 0 / +0
    198 / Milotic / 81 / Neutral / 0 / +0
    196 / Goodra | Venusaur / 80 / Neutral / 0 / +0


    Tier 5: 84 Speed Base 20 - Min Neutral Base 79


    194 / Necrozma / 79 / Neutral / 0 / +0
    192 / Blastoise / 78 / Neutral / 0 / +0
    186 / Florges / 75 / Neutral / 0 / +0
    184 / Seismitoad / 74 / Neutral / 0 / +0
    176 / Hitmontop | Mantine / 70 / Neutral / 0 / +0
    166 / Umbreon | Vaporeon / 65 / Neutral / 0 / +0
    165 / Seismitoad / 74 / -Spe / 0 / +0
    164 / Chesnaught / 64 / Neutral / 0 / +0
    157 / Donphan / 50 / Neutral / 84 / +0
    156 / Porygon2 | Jellicent | Bewear / 60 / Neutral / 0 / +0
    146 / Machamp / 55 / Neutral / 0 / +0
    136 / Donphan | Diancie | Registeel / 50 / Neutral / 0 / +0
    130 / Hoopa / 70 / -Spe / 0 / +0 / 0 Speed IVs
    126 / Lurantis / 45 / Neutral / 0 / +0
    124 / Dragalge / 44 / Neutral / 0 / +0
    122 / Diancie / 50 / -Spe / 0 / +0
    120 / Araquanid / 42 / Neutral / 0 / +0
    116 / Dhelmise | Rhyperior / 40 / Neutral / 0 / +0
    114 / Gastrodon / 39 / Neutral / 0 / +0
    112 / Porygon2 / 60 / -Spe / 0 / +0 / 0 Speed IVs
    106 / Doublade / 35 / Neutral / 0 / +0
    102 / Bronzong / 33 / Neutral / 0 / +0
    97 / Escavalier / 20 / Neutral / 84 / +0


    Tier 6: 0 - Min Neutral Base 30


    96 / Reuniclus | Slowbro | Snorlax | Slowking | Cofagrigus / 30 / Neutral / 0 / +0
    94 / Diancie / 50 / -Spe / 0 / +0 / 0 Speed IVs
    86 / Gigalith / 25 / Neutral / 0 / +0
    83 / Dragalge / 44 / -Spe / 0 / +0 / 0 Speed IVs
    80 / Araquanid / 42 / -Spe / 0 / +0 / 0 Speed IVs
    76 / Escavalier | Torkoal / 20 / Neutral / 0 / +0
    63 / Bronzong / 33 / -Spe / 0 / +0 / 0 Speed IVs
    58 / Reuniclus / 30 / -Spe / 0 / +0 / 0 Speed IVs
    46 / Pyukumuku / 5 / Neutral / 0 / +0
    40 / Escavalier / 20 / -Spe / 0 / +0 / 0 Speed IVs
  5. Miyami~~

    Miyami~~

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2015
    Messages:
    506
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    So here's what our viable Hazard removal looks like with the new drops.

    Mantine (open)

    Mantine @ Leftovers
    Ability: Water Absorb
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Roost
    - Defog
    - Air Slash
    - Toxic/Scald

    Mantine @ Leftovers
    Ability: Water Absorb
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Roost
    - Defog
    - Air Slash
    - Toxic/Scald


    Mantine is easily the best hazard removal in the tier. With impressive uninvested special bulk, good HP, Reliable recovery, two immunities, and a plethora of Resists, Mantine is a huge asset to just any team that had Blastoise on it previously. The choice between Physically defensive and Specially Defensive depends on what your team needs to check, with its massive special defence letting it to check Dragons such as Kyurem (Ban this please) and Kommo-o better, but Physical Defence investment lets you check fightings much better. Toxic or Scald depends on wether or not you want to spread Burns or poison.

    Dhelmise (open)

    Dhelmise @ Assault Vest / Spooky Plate
    Ability: Steelworker
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
    Adamant Nature
    - Rapid Spin
    - Power Whip
    - Shadow Claw
    - Anchor Shot / Heavy Slam


    Dhelmise is an interesting mon because it seems pretty bad outside of having three STABs and Spin, and even then in pre-alpha it ranged from barely usable to bad, so I'm not expecting too much. Three STABs is cute and Anchor Shot lets it trap things and prevent double switches into whatever you're switching in, but Heavy Slam can KO Florges and no Bulk Roserade from full, which is a big deal. The item is team dependent, but I'd recommend AV primarily as it lets it dodge the 2HKO from Rose and Shaymin's HP Fires respectively. Spooky Plate or Spell Tag lets you take on Doublade better, so keep that in mind.

    calcs (open)

    252 SpA Technician Roserade Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Dhelmise: 138-164 (40.2 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 SpA Technician Roserade Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Dhelmise: 208-246 (60.6 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Dhelmise: 104-125 (30.3 - 36.4%) -- 54.4% chance to 3HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Dhelmise: 156-185 (45.4 - 53.9%) -- 41.4% chance to 2HKO


    Gligar (open)

    Gligar @ Eviolite
    Ability: Hyper Cutter
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
    Careful Nature
    - Defog
    - Roost
    - Earthquake
    - U-turn / Knock Off


    Gligar now has to compete with Mantine on a lot of builds, which poses a problem for it, but Gligar offers a few niche things to distinguish the two. Better Physical Defence is a plus, and Eviolite overall makes it more bulky than Mantine, but the trade-off is that it's weaker to Knock Off in the process. Electric is a nice immunity, but water is overall better. Gligar isn't weak to Rock (Or SR), which is huge, and if it has its eviolite it won't be pressured to Roost as much.

    Donphan (open)

    Donphan @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Stealth Rock
    - Rapid Spin
    - Knock Off


    Donphan gets points for being a Hazard setter and Hazard remover in one slot, but unless you desperately need that Donphan doesn't offer much. In any given game, it's usually only able to spin once, and Sturdy doesn't even garauntee a spin as Rocks and Spikes break it. It's slow and has relatively poor bulk overall, and doesn't have anything to really distinguish it from other removers. It's just so easy to pressure and lacks many useful resistances at all.

    Honourable Mention Hazard removal: Flygon, who might be able to squeeze Defog onto some of its other sets, and Espeon, who isn't hazard removal but makes your opponent think twice about laying hazards.

    Free mola ban Nidos
  6. Take Azelfie

    Take Azelfie #MOUGA
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
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    [​IMG]
    Mantine @ Leftovers
    Ability: Water Absorb
    EVs: 8 HP / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Substitute
    - Toxic
    - Scald
    - Roost / Air Slash

    This set became pretty popular toward the end of ORAS NU since it preyed on the abundance of Fighting-types and bulky Pokemon that held the meta at the time. This set gets the opportunity to pray on bulky teams that really like Pokemon such as Chesnaught, Milotic, Gligar, Donphan, etc. while also holding onto many resistances to cover for your team. And although Roost is here and it will make it much easier to keep alive (especially since this isn't running Defog) Air Slash also helps out versus Chesnaught and Bewear. Also would like to give a nod towards Haze on the defensive sets above which let can be used in tandem of Toxic / Scald to completely stop most Calm Mind Pokemon such as the newly brought in Necrozma. I'm really looking forward to seeing how Mantine performs in the new meta as well as getting to reuse Kommo-o and Flygon.
    Mazar, viol and bass and MiyoKa like this.
  7. spookysocialist

    spookysocialist formerly urbestfriend

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2015
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    Glad we finally have a beta, and it's already looking better then alpha with some of the biggest threats moved up or banned already. If anyone wants to jump in real quick, my team I posted in the previous thread is still 100% legal.

    Just some quick thoughts going forward:

    [​IMG]
    Necrozma seems like a cool mon for teams looking for an offensive rocker. It's movepool is odd but it's got some cool options like EQ, x-scissor, and flash cannon. I think purely offensive sets are kinda done better by gardevoir but maybe the added bulk is enough to justify using it.

    [​IMG]
    I kinda feel like mons that take advantage of water types will be better now that mola is gone, since mola was able to just wishpass to a teamate without having to heal itself thanks to regenerator. Now none of our waters have that kind of momentum and give more opportunities for anti waters to take advantage of them. I really thought toxicroak was underrated before and I think it is still a really good pick. Of course, maybe I'm wrong and water types will start carrying ice beam/other moves now, what with the presence of dragunz.

    [​IMG]
    I've been using grassium-z rotom-c with will-o-wisp in the last slot and actually have found a lot of success with it. I always was annoyed with choice rotom because it felt like leaf storm wasn't a move you wanted to lock yourself into, but it was the only way to get past ground types, making rotom not consistent enough. grassium z lets you do fun things like lure in ground types who think you're locked into t-bolt, burn mons trying to setup on you while at -2, etc. It got even better now that entei is gone, as adamant entei outspeeded max timid rotom by 1 point.

    [​IMG]
    Kommo-o actually is pretty nice for offensive teams cause it gives a check to daunt, honchkrow, swellow, and specs yanmega thanks to its typing and bulk/soundproof.

    Things I want to try out soon but haven't used yet and won't comment on: Tornadus, NP houndoom with z-solarbeam , yanmega.

    P.S. honchkrow is broken AF seriously
    eht and cyanize like this.
  8. Arifeen

    Arifeen
    is a Tutoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

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    Here is the tier list for Beta: http://pastebin.com/epXFKvz1 (If I'm wrong plz forgive me)

    As you can see, there are a number of Pokemon that can be broken in the long term, and here are some Pokemon that I will keep a close eye on.

    99% sure broken

    [​IMG]
    This is easily one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the tier, although having checks like Necrozma, Doublade, Gligar, and Mantine. Lucario is a key threat in offensive teams, and can bypass its checks with its coverage moves (Necrozma- Dark Pulse, Doublade- Dark Pulse, Gligar- Ice Punch / +2 Flash Cannon / Iron Tail). Although Mantine resists Lucario's usual STAB moves and eats up Special hits, keep in mind that Lucario is a sweeper, and in usual offensive play, getting the rocks up is a key strategy, and if the opposing team is running Mantine, chances are that its the defogger, meaning it has to switch into rocks and lose 25%. I don't need to expand on how scary it becomes after a SD or NP and flood this post with calcs because its self explanatory.

    [​IMG]
    lol this Pokemon screws up a mon most of the time it gets a free switch (given it is faster than the target). Crawdaunt is a monster to balance teams and they have to be forced to run Chesnaught, Toxicroak (which is more of a soft check because Knock Off does a lot), and Bewear (
    252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Fluffy Bewear: 186-220 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO). Moreover, SD / DD Crawdaunt can pretty much win the game depending on the team, or at least punch enough holes for sweepers like Lucario to plow through.

    75% sure broken

    [​IMG]
    Specs / Sub Roost Kyurem both are dangerous threats, and can pretty much bypass Florges as its check due to Flash Cannon. The main problem with this Pokemon is that unless you run Bronzong you are always letting this Pokemon pressure your team. Additionally, with Gligar and Donphan being good in the tier, Kyurem gets a lot of free turns to switch in and pressure the opponent. Mantine is a nice check to Kyurem (
    252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mantine: 165-195 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery), but being weak to rocks does not help versus it and Mantine has to keep roosting, letting Kyurem fish for a freeze.

    I'm a little iffy on Necrozma and Kingdra, but I'm gonna let time decide on that.

    Here's to having a good Beta metagame!
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2017
  9. Kushalos

    Kushalos Let the joy of love take you higher
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

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    rip shake
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2017
  10. mertyville

    mertyville

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    Finally SM RU. So many Dragon Types, I don't know which I should try first.
  11. tenkai

    tenkai

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    sorry if this is a dumb question, but are we using the same system uu is, where the things we quickban will be tested individually later on, or are they just gone for good?
    KlefkiHolder likes this.
  12. AJB

    AJB
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    As stated in the OP, almost everything that is quickbanned during Beta will likely be re-tested down the road. The primary current objective is simply to create as stable a metagame as possible.
    tmacbalanced and tenkai like this.
  13. Khaytra

    Khaytra

    Joined:
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    I don't see how banning chunks of mons every week and then rapid-fire introducing them back into the tier for about a week at a time is "stable" since what is on top is constantly cycling and mons will then go both in and out in relatively short spans, but if that's your definition of "stable", more power to you.
  14. EonX

    EonX One and Only
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

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    Some huge changes happened with these tier shifts, and I honestly think they're for the better. Just going to go over a few of the most impactful ones:

    [​IMG]

    Getting credible hazard removal is huge for the tier since our best sources previously were Gligar and Donphan. Mantine's access to reliable recovery, a solid defensive typing, and the 2nd best move in the game (Scald) should make it a solid Pokemon. Perhaps the biggest thing is its incredible synergy with Nidoqueen. This was what previously made balance teams so hard to build in terms of defensive synergy (brutally strong offensive mons is another problem entirely) as there was no "good" form of hazard removal that had good synergy with Nidoqueen. Speaking of Nidoqueen, Mantine makes it more difficult to just slap Sludge Wave + Ice Beam on it and call it a day since you now have to give strong consideration to Thunderbolt to prevent a possible Defog.

    [​IMG]

    Kommo-o is a really fun addition to offensive teams. Haxorus leaving at the same time it drops back down is really good as Dragon Dance sets should thrive much more than they did in Kommo's stint in month 1 of RU Alpha. Specs is still going to be fun and both Soundproof and Bulletproof will have their uses. I'm honestly anticipating Bulletproof to be better early on because Venomoth is going to be stupid with Entei gone and Lucario likely going very, very soon. Don't say I didn't warn you about that. Either way, Kommo's defensive typing, bulk, and versatility will make it solid.

    [​IMG]

    Necrozma was a solid Stealth Rock option in the pre-Alpha days of RU for any of you that were around for that and it should still work fine here. It's going to be tough sledding for it before Crawdaunt innevitably goes, but it's going to be a very solid option once that Pokemon goes away. Good bulk, good offensive stats, reliable recovery, and access to two of the best moves in the game (T-Wave and Rocks) give it plenty of redeeming qualities. Pursuit isn't even an outright easy way to kill it off due to its Prism Armor ability, so yet another plus for it.

    [​IMG]

    Spin Dhelmise won't be good imo now that we have Mantine on top of Donphan, Gligar, and Flygon. However, I can see CB Dhelmise being annoying to switch into. That's probably the best way to take advantage of its triple STAB niche. It's bulk is ok, but not good for a spinner set imo. That said, I remember using Band Dhelmise in pre-Alpha and being pleased with it. It was nothing special, but it hit hard enough in most scenarios. Obviously, it's a much different meta now tho.

    [​IMG]

    Getting Flygon back at the same time we get rid of Haxorus is very fun. Dragon Dance and Choice Band sets should be the norm for Flygon as it desperately wants ways to boost its power. Defog might be something worth using, but I get the feeling Gligar will be a better choice for that (and definitely Mantine) Base 100 Speed is very solid and should serve Flygon well with its main offensive sets. And the best thing is we keep a Dragon-type that outspeeds Kyurem. I see Scarf Flygon being a decent "panic button" for offense since it outspeeds all other viable Scarfers and most Speed boosters.

    [​IMG]

    The one rise that I see affecting RU down to its core. Ever since it got Regenerator in BW2, Alomomola has been a staple in RU. Hell, most of us don't know a RU meta that didn't feature Mola as a strong defensive Pokemon. It's been the easiest glue mon to use for balance teams for years and losing it is going to make virtually every bulky Water-type more viable. Perhaps none moreso than Vaporeon, which keeps the Water-typing in conjunction with Wish for teams that needed both the typing and Wish (read: many of them)

    I'm excited to start building for RU Beta. Really looking forward to having a chance to build balance w/o Mola for the first time since about 2013.
  15. Avocado

    Avocado formerly Arikado
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2010
    Messages:
    3,743
    Can we please not go the UU route. Banning things willy nilly right now and then re-testing everything is a huuuuge chore that's really, really annoying. I don't wanna build teams only to see all of them unusable cuz 1 mon got banned, then build new teams, and have them also unusable 1 week later cuz of a re-test or another quickban :x

    We did things perfectly last gen when we quickbanned only obviously broken stuff (kyurem azelf shaymin sableye etc) and never re-tested them, and did regular suspect tests after that. It's the opposite of a stable meta if we ban anything slightly broken now only to retest everything later and it'll put me and i'm sure quite a number of people off the tier for a while.
  16. Mijzelffan

    Mijzelffan

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2010
    Messages:
    107
    Not sure if this is a typo or not but running 252 HP / 72 Def / 116 SpD with a Calm nature gives you the exact same bulk with 68 ev's to spare.
    Firrefly, Paradox38, sedertz and 8 others like this.
  17. Rider

    Rider NO FEAR, NO PAIN
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    733
    We will never get good, music won't we. Then again, I mostly listen to J-rock, progrock, and some 80's classics so who am I to talk. Anyway, here's a post to not make this rant seem empty:

    [​IMG]
    Necrozma @ Kee Berry
    Ability: Prism Armor
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Stored Power
    - Calm Mind
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk / Toxic

    Pretty simple idea for a defensive setup sweeper Necrozma, if I say so myself. I decided I'd rather run RestTalk over something like Morning Sun since I'd rather not be bothered by status afflictions / Rest over MS possibly makes up for lack of Lefties. Aside from giving it an extra 20 BP to its Stored Power disregarding CM boosts, Kee Berry lets Necro take advantage of some weak or resisted physical move to start coming in and start setting up. Cool thing about Kee Berry is that it takes the worry away from Knock Off a bit, making up with a Defense bonus. Granted, I've only tried to use this set when I'm most sure that necro will be able to sweep and not be forced up, as tossing the Kee Berry would be such a huge waste. Another cool thing is that thanks to Rest, you'd be most easily able to win a PP war versus, say, a last slot Umby. Something I've been meaning to try is Toxic over Sleep Talk a la CurseSteel in Gen 6. Essentially, instead of getting a chance at more CM's and getting lucky sleep'n sweeps, it could allow me to take on fat teams better by letting Tox's passive damage dent the foe while Necrozma sponges hits in its sleep. All in all, pretty dope set which people should definitely try. Granted, you lose to some crit bullhax and status resilient dark-types like our All-Mighty Lord and Saviour Scrafty, but that's beside the point. Now here's... some replays

    shoutouts to woke nigga esidisi for games

    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rubeta-545430760 necro literally won from looking at team preview

    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rubeta-545548445 same here. decided I'd go in on the obvious spin to get an easy kee berry setup

    also shoutouts to EonX for not bringing up the bet Necrozma set before.
  18. Yasuo

    Yasuo

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2016
    Messages:
    41
    I think Durant is one of the bigger profiteers of this tier shift. Entei and Darmanitan scare Durant out with their resistances to the stabs if you aren't running Rock Slide. Alomamola and Suicune could be problems for Durant if you aren't running Thunder Fang.
    In my opinion is Durant better than it was in Oras RU. It seems to have more options with it's
    - Choice Band and Life Orb Sets
    - the classic Hone Claws Durant
    - variation with Darkinium Z instead of Life Orb for the Hone Claws set
    - Z-Moves with Electrium Z Thunder Fang for bulky Waters, Rockium Z Rock Slide for Fire Types, Darkinium Z Crunch for things that get hit neutral by the other moves

    Durant @ Life Orb/Rockium Z/Electrium Z
    Ability: Hustle
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Hone Claws
    - Iron Head
    - X-Scissor
    - Superpower/Rock Slide/Thunder Fang

    Here are some calcs with the Z-Crystals:

    => +1 252 Atk Hustle Durant Gigavolt Havoc (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 434-512 (110.1 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    => +1 252 Atk Hustle Durant Continental Crush (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Emboar: 427-503 (118.2 - 139.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    => +1 252 Atk Hustle Durant Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 331-390 (96.5 - 113.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    => 252 Atk Hustle Durant Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 300-354 (88.7 - 104.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    => 252 Atk Hustle Durant Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 416-490 (102.9 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    So Durant needs only one Hone Claws boost or a bit of prior chip damage to OHKO most of the things that think they could switch into some Durant variants. Your thoughts?
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2017
    StreetOhio likes this.
  19. G-Luke

    G-Luke We Eat Losers
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    Mar 22, 2015
    Messages:
    1,782
    Flygon is actually really good as an offensive defogger, and is the only hazard remover in the tier to me that fits on offence well. Outside of hazard removal, Flygon is a threatening set up sweeper and efficent choice user too.
    tmacbalanced likes this.
  20. Olly

    Olly

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2013
    Messages:
    166
    My early thoughts are Kingdra needs to go ASAP. Imo it's always Kingdra that pushes rain over the top, and it's the same here. Kingdra literally 2HKO's everything while outspeeding everything.

    Crawdaunt also seems incredibly broken. I'm actually a little surprised it wasn't instantly quick banned anyway. Crawdaunt just puts way too much pressure on team building. Balance is virtually totally unviable just because of Crawdaunt and how common it is. You basically have to run Chesnaught on those teams, and even then Choice Band Aerial Ace does a truck load.

    I mentioned it around a month ago, but stall is still a big problem. I don't really know what needs doing here, but it's the combination of Pyukumuku with Espeon that is a big problem to get around. You can say run Pursuit, but it really isn't that easy. Espeon can get around nearly every viable Pursuit user with the right coverage (either HP Fire or Dazzling Gleam) or force a 50:50 with the likes of Honchkrow. Even the likes of Choice Band Snorlax isn't that great in this role, and again it's a 50:50 as Psyshock 3HKO's CB Snorlax and if they stay in your Pursuit doesn't OHKO. And with Espeon around Pyukumuku is incredibly obnoxious, it single handedly walls well over 50% of the metagame.

    Despite what I'm saying, I too would prefer if we didn't go UU style and ban many things quickly to retest later, preferably only the totally broken stuff gets quick banned.
    King Wynaut likes this.
  21. Rennyjesus

    Rennyjesus

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2012
    Messages:
    410
    Has Drizzle also been banned in RU, because it was previously banned in UU? Because without it, I can't see Kingdra as a broken mon... it doesn't hit that hard considering that it's similar than setupping a Dragon Dance that lasts 5-8 turns and only affects water STAB... sure, Rain boosted Specs STAB Hydro Pumps from Modest Kingdra will hurt, but Crawdaunt has similar raw power, with a better secondary STAB and priority, in exchange for Kingdra's extra speed...

    Speaking about Crawdaunt, I feel that we should keep it for a while and see how the meta develops... last gen it was considered borderline broken and after being reintroduced, the meta got adapted so quickly that by the end of ORAS it was considered just plain good... don't get me wrong, it is a Huge threat, but giving it some time, will make us really see if it's banworthy in practice and not just in paper...

    Just my two cents...
  22. HydraOfLight1255

    HydraOfLight1255 formerly DarkWyvern0209

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    483
    Yes Rennyjesus, Drizzle was banned back we were in the alpha stage. Drizzle Pelipper ended up going to OU due to it. Politoed is still here, but not used as often b/c of the ban.

    I can easily see Daunt being broken now compared to Gen 6. I mean, it's hard to switch into with the exception of one mon (Chesnaught), but everything else gets either that one big Knock Off or Crabhammer or just dies to Aqua Jet. With that in mind, I can easily see it as suspect worthy. Like you said, give it some time for the RU higher-ups to see it and how many complaints there are against it. In the end, I see it moving to BL2.
    Based Honker likes this.
  23. Miyami~~

    Miyami~~

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2015
    Messages:
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    [​IMG]
    Show Hide

    Nidoqueen @ Life Orb
    Ability: Sheer Force
    EVs: 68 HP / 252 SpA / 188 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Sludge Wave
    - Earth Power
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunderbolt / Stealth Rock / Toxic Spikes / Fire Blast / Taunt


    So I wanted to talk about a Mon that I'd consider broken and that is Nidoqueen. Despite base 75 SpA being pretty low, With a Life orb and Sheer Force Nidoqueen's power rises to absurd levels with just its STAB combo alone, and it has very, very few switchins without even factoring in its coverage moves. Bronzong is immune to both of its STABs, but is passive and doesn't OHKO Nidoqueen back, while Nidoqueen can take a good chunk off of it from Fire Blast if it's running that. Gligar also switches into both of its STAB moves, but Nidoqueen should really be running Ice Beam at all times, which nets a KO on Gligar with relative ease. Mantine also can't safely switch in until you know for sure it's not running Tbolt. Overall, Nidoqueen is a Pokémon that is nearly impossible to switch into due to how hard it hits in addition to having very wide Coverage options that allow it to take a solid chunk off of its checks and counters, if not outright KO them. It's also an excellent hazard setter, which takes advantage of how many Pokémon have to switch out of it for fear of dying to an Earth Power or Sludge Wave, and can even run Taunt to just roll Fat teams by itself. It's also surprisingly bulky, meaning unlike its male counterpart it won't be dying in one hit to non-SE STAB moves very often, and is blessed with an excellent defensive typing granting it immunities to electric, the ability to absorb both Poison and Paralysis for your team and remove toxic spikes, and resistances to some of the best offensive typings such as Fire and Fighting.

    While it's not obscenely broken like Lucario, Crawdaunt, and Kyurem, I do believe it should be looked at down the line due to how few switchins it has and the amount of pressure it puts on teams just by entering the battle. It will easily net at least one kill every single battle, possibly more, and it forces you to frantically switch in and out to see what coverage it's running or sac something to bring in your revenge killing Psychic or Ice, as most, if not all fast Ice/Psychics can't switch into it.
    SilentVerse and Shephen912 like this.
  24. DTC

    DTC I'll be your 1-Up girl
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
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    I think Nidoqueen is p fine. It needs 4 attacking moves to truly be a good wallbreaker (and a lot of the time you want it to use rocks as it's one of the few offensive rockers), and even then it still has issues against Cresselia, Snorlax, Umbreon, Milotic, and others. It also runs into a lot of situations where it has to use just the right moves to get the 2HKO / OHKO on the offensive Pokemon. It's also really not as tanky as you imply because most decently strong attacks will 2HKO it, and it's also quite slow for an offensive Pokemon. It's annoying that it can't be worn down through poison / Life Orb recoil and it's resistant to rocks, but I think there are more than enough things balancing Nidoqueen.
    Slurmz, tmacbalanced, AJB and 5 others like this.
  25. lighthouses

    lighthouses

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2014
    Messages:
    831
    hi

    Kingdra @ Chesto Berry
    Ability: Swift Swim
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Rest
    - Waterfall
    - Outrage

    I found this set to be pretty cool seeing as how i could never fucking get rain dance to work since i either am not able to setup or someone is running sand, it sets up nicely on bulky waters when they lack haze and whatnot and it pairs well with z-memento whimsicott which is what i've been using with it. I would appreciate if any of the usual tryhards could come up with a good spread for it.
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