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Metagame NP: SM RU Stage 0 (Beta): Green Light (Talonflame Banned)

Discussion in 'SM RarelyUsed' started by atomicllamas, Mar 10, 2017.

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  1. ddhelmet


    Aug 30, 2016
    Dude I used this set since 2007. A tryhard set can be Adamant 252 attack with and enough speed to outspeed some common threats after +1 and outspeed the most of the metagame at +2. You can check the recommended 4th, 5th and 6th generation spreads at Smogon Dex to get an idea. Usually a set of 80 HP and 176 speed works.
    lighthouses likes this.
  2. -Tsunami-

    -Tsunami- VoD Leader Metabeast
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Championis the 2nd Smogon Classic Winneris a defending World Cup of Pokemon champion
    RU Co-Leader

    Feb 27, 2009
  3. ddhelmet


    Aug 30, 2016
    This set is probably suboptimal for SM RU
  4. Yasuo


    Jul 21, 2016
    Thanks for ignoring my post by the way. I really don't understand why everybody else gets a rate on their post beside me...
  5. mertyville


    May 26, 2013
    Did anyone try out a Z-Splash Kingdra set?
    Avocado likes this.
  6. EonX

    EonX One and Only
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    May 27, 2011
    Durant's definitely a threatening Pokemon, but I feel there are some issues that hold it back; most of which aren't really a fault of Durant itself:

    1. 4MSS - this has been exacerbated now that Mantine has dropped down, but this has been one of Durant's biggest issues since the start of RU Alpha. There's simply too many bulky / defensive Pokemon for Durant to cover in one moveset. Yes, it has coverage for everything it could ever want coverage on, but it can't condense that into one set (except for non-Hone Claws sets, and it's still a mild problem then on top of Hustle then backfiring at times) It needs Rock Slide for Moltres and Mantine, Superpower for Steels, and Crunch for Doublade (this straight hard walls Durant w/o Crunch) Obviously you have 5 other Pokemon to help with what Durant doesn't have coverage on, but this makes it harder to simply splash onto a team than some other sweepers like Lucario and Crawdaunt, which only need 1-3 Pokemon removed based on coverage and have much more reliable power if they can't find an opening to set up.

    2. Speed tier - While Durant's Speed tier is very good, losing to Heliolisk 50% of the time, and being outsped by Talonflame and Swellow is pretty rough considering Lisk and Swellow are both pretty common and Talonflame is likely to receive a spike in usage with Entei and Darmanitan leaving. Offensive teams aren't short on Pokemon that can utilize a Choice Scarf or tank one hit and KO back. Again, this can be worked around by the Durant user, but it is something you have to deal with.

    3. Setup Opportunities - Like with many frailer setup sweepers in the tier right now, there aren't many chances to set up a Hone Claws with Durant. Any smart player is going to simply hit it with whatever is out on the field if their team is weak to it, and Durant's horrid special bulk and only average physical bulk means it's not hard to drop it into range of priority or a revenge kill after it sets up. The typing helps with some nice resistances, but it's still a pretty significant issue in practice.

    Durant is certainly strong and a very usable Pokemon right now that's criminally underused, but it's nowhere near broken right now imo.
    Melons-N-Soda and Hammy like this.
  7. Vengeance417


    Oct 22, 2013
    What do you mean by this? Doesn't Z-Hone Claws give you a second Attack boost, effectively giving you +2 Attack and +1 Accuracy?
    Paradox38 and Melons-N-Soda like this.
  8. Bad feeling

    Bad feeling

    Apr 17, 2015
    You better use critdra set which is less predictive than z-plash. Excepted if you need a poor crawdaunt check
  9. Venoxio


    Jan 10, 2015
    I've found that Kommo-o can also switch into Crawdaunt reliably, as it has decent natural bulk and does not take much from Knock Off or Aqua Jet, and can OHKO back with Brick Break/Focus Blast.

    To prevent this from being a one-liner, I'm gonna speak a bit about the ultimate DRAGON CHECK ITSELF:


    This thing is pretty slept on imo. It checks all the dragunz out there, being an interesting CM sweeper which hinders them from sweeping in the tier. It OHKOs Kommo-o with no investment at plus 1 and doesn't get hit by a P Jab due to priority, and 2HKOs Kingdra and Flygon at +1 as well. Kyurem is another story, but CM increases Comfey's special bulk to the point where outside of Specs set Kyurem doesn't do that much damage due to Draining Kiss's healing factor. With its speed it can outpace a lot of slower mons and the tier and do decent damage after a boost. Aside from HP its natural bulk isn't bad either. Also priority Fairy move AND recovery? Essentially Fairy type/recovery Gale Wings, which is always useful. Not to mention it can actually function as a check to Crawdaunt due to even uninvested outpacing Jolly Crawdaunt and Draining Kiss outspeeding and killing Crawdaunt at +1. The problem with this mon is it needs a boost to do significant damage to anything, but it can come in on a lot of things in the meta due to bulk and set up a CM.

    tl;dr Comfey checks dragunz and can be an interesting mon to use.

    also ban daunt luke and kyurem kthxbai
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2017
  10. Yasuo


    Jul 21, 2016
    Yeah i dunno what I wrote down there lol
  11. Pepeduce


    Oct 23, 2015

    For me one of the bigger threat actually even more threatening than Hawlucha. Z bug buzz changes everything, the mon which could take it a +1 Bug Buzz can't take anymore with Z move after rocks (Def Escavalier is a good example).
    Sleep Powder and 90 in speed gives it a free setup and a Roost set permits him to deal with a classic Registeel because it can't be Toxik and Para is less efficient in gen7.
    Moreover Z Bug Buzz can hit a Soundproof Kommo'o (that is great against Z moveless Moth). Even its classic sets are great (Sub SleepP/Disable).
    To be frank, Venomoth is underestimate beside a Crawdaunt or Lucario and need to go Bug Buzzing higher tiers.

    I guess I'm not the only person waiting for Lucario and Crawdaunt ban, these things are broken too.
    eifo, EonX, Based Honker and 4 others like this.
  12. HydraOfLight1255

    HydraOfLight1255 formerly DarkWyvern0209

    Mar 28, 2011
    Yeah now that Kommo-o is here, I can easily see it as a check to Daunt. Here's a few calcs:

    252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 108-127 (37.1 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 124-146 (42.6 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

    252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 73-86 (25 - 29.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

    252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 83-98 (28.5 - 33.6%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO

    With those calcs, I'd say yes that it's a good switch in, but when it's near or at full HP. Unless Kommo-o has Dragonium-Z in which case, it's a guaranteed switch every time. Kommo-o hits so hard that Daunt goes to down to 1 Sky Uppercut/Brick Break/etc. Comfey, on the other hand, is to be kept extremely safe. If I could show calcs I would, but for some reason the damage calc doesn't recognize Draining Kiss as a move. But I believe you that DK OHKO's Kommo-o and Daunt at +1 SpAtk. So, assuming you run 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA, then at +1 SpA it's at 300. More than enough power to take them down! Good catches Venoxio!
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2017
    Patrick1088 likes this.
  13. TheWall


    Mar 18, 2016
    I wanna elobarate more on Comfey.

    Comfey looks on paper like its a really weak mon (which it actually is!) when you only use Draining Kiss as your main attacking move. During the second RU alpha month I got intrigued by Comfey. At that moment I was building a new team and I was searching for a secundary win-con. Comfey actually fitted that team pretty well. While playing I noticed what everyone has been saying, "It lacks power!". I tried multiple spreads and sets and 1 set (suggested to me sadly cant remember by who) proved to actually work as a good cm sweeper.

    Lei (Comfey) (F) @ Pixie Plate
    Ability: Triage
    EVs: 120 HP / 136 Def / 252 SpA
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Taunt
    - Synthesis
    - Calm Mind
    - Draining Kiss

    The max SPA investment and Pixie Plate give it some extra "umph" that helps when it wants to sweep or revenge kill certain (weakened) mons. The HP and Defense investment gives it some balanced out bulk overall.
    The moveset is quite similar to the Calm Mind Florges set with the exception of Taunt over Aromatherapy. The reason for Taunt is that a mon with Toxic and decent recovery and bulk can eventually win the 1v1 by pp stalling Aromatherapy. Comfey has naturally enough speed to outspeed most Toxic users and prevent them from using it. Taunt also gives Comfey a much better match up against mons with reliable recovery like Milotic for example. Synthesis is there for recovery when Draining Kiss wont be enough and a sweep is too early. In my experience Comfey doesnt need alot of boosts to actually start sweeping. Usually 1 maybe 2 Calm Mind Boosts are enough since draining kiss at that point already recovers enough health to out "recover" the damage taken.

    Overall I feel like Comfey has a much better matchup against more offenssive oriented teams and is still able to stand its ground against some more bulky teams.

    Here are some replays that show this sets potential:

    This replay is from the last day of ru alpha the user currently replaced hax with another dragon so ultimately that doesnt really matter for the outcome.
    Once roserade was gone and lucario was weakend enough comfey was able to set up and sweep.

    Here its best to skip the first half (played terribly...!) but eventually comfey was able to tank a specs boomburst from exploud when it was at +1 and cm again on that turn and bring my health from 17% back to 67% and back to 100% in the following turn.

    Sadly I dont have a replay of it against more bulky teams but I do hope you now see some potential in this little fairy even though it has a weak main stab attack.

    EDIT: Seek and you shall find!
    In this replay I end up facing an unconventional gligar set which basically stalls the opponent out with Toxic, Roost and Substitute. This game shows the value of Taunt over Aromatherapy very well, cause I wouldn't have been able to break that set without Taunt.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2017
  14. HydraOfLight1255

    HydraOfLight1255 formerly DarkWyvern0209

    Mar 28, 2011
    Here's also another good switch-in and counter to Crawdaunt:


    If you ran Lum Berry, LO, or anything not Z-item and Daunt runs LO

    252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Virizion: 169-200 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    W/Z-item or other non-removable and Daunt runs LO

    252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Virizion: 114-135 (35.2 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    Removable Item and Daunt runs Band

    252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Virizion: 195-230 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Non-removable item and running Band

    252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Virizion: 131-155 (40.5 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    In other words: running a non-removable like Fightinium-Z or Grassinium-Z or even perhpas Rockinium-Z for things that resist Fighting and Grass may be the new thing. Aerial Ace is not common on Daunt, but it could be something to expect. If you absolutely "have to" run a removeable item, watch yourself! One switch in to it is all you have. A nice thing is if Daunt does use KO, you get that Justified boost. I mean, it's not Daunt is faster than Virizion, so once you switch in, the ball is in your court!
  15. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest It's Showtime! Are you ready?
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 5, 2012
    So I've been steadily climbing back into competitive Pokemon after a pretty long break from it, and have been stepping back into this gen's RU. So far I've been having fun, I won't common on what deserves to be banned, but just a few thoughts so far from what I've used and such.

    Lucario is phenomenal. Its standard SD set is a very powerful late-game cleaner, with +2 priority with Extreme Speed, especially with a Swords Dance boost in tow, being really good for cleaning in the late-game. Even aside from that, Close Combat and Iron Tail hit really hard against slower mons, and you can also give up Iron Tail for something like Ice Punch depending on what your team can cover for it. The special set is also pretty strong for dealing with checks to the physical one, being able to hit Doublade and Necrozma hard with Dark Pulse, and such (Vacuum Wave is decent for NP but not all that powerful).

    Crawdaunt is also a very threatening Pokemon, since Crabhammer and Knock Off hit extremely hard provided Crawdaunt gets an easy switch-in, which makes it a massive threat to balance / bulky offense teams since there are very few threats that can safely switch in on it, Chesnaught being one of those few, and everything else is either easy to wear down or succumbs to two hits or so. Aqua Jet is also quite strong and helps Crawdaunt get the edge over some offensive threats on offense, so it's not completely helpless against offense either. It doesn't completely wreck teams all the time but when it gets in it's easy to get at least one kill which can easily work to a team's advantage and screw up the opponent as a result.

    Dragon-types have become quite common this gen, and there are many I've had fun with. Kommo-o is a really cool Pokemon on offense, since Dragon Dance sets are wonderful due to Kommo-o's nice bulk and good power, which help it set up and sweep with Outrage and such, having good coverage with Poison Jab and to an extent something like Earthquake or...Sky Uppercut (lol this is seriously its best Fighting STAB). Specs is also fun since Clanging Scales hits pretty decently hard from Kommo-o, and it has good coverage to back it up here and there (Focus Blast is also pretty strong). Underneath all that it has good bulk, a nice typing, and the abilities are also great, since Bulletproof and Soundproof both have uses in helping Kommo-o block certain moves from certain threats. I also have been having a lot of fun using Goodra, which is a very solid mon on bulky offense due to its high special bulk making it a wonderful check to many threats such as Venomoth, Shaymin, Roserade, and a number of common special threats as well as sun and rain teams. Sap Sipper is an awesome ability which helps Goodra block Sleep Powder and Seed Flare, among those other moves, and Specs hits super hard with Draco Meteor along with fantastic coverage in Fire Blast, Sludge Bomb, and something like Muddy Water. I think Band might be able to work with Goodra's good physical movepool but I've yet to test that. Kyurem is definitely a prominent threat this generation since SubRoost and Specs are both strong as hell, the former also being a massive pain in the ass due to Pressure and a lot of bulk. Ice Beam is also really good as STAB and has great neutral coverage, and also gives it the edge over the common Gligar and Donphan, as well as other Dragons.

    Weather teams have also been pretty fun to work with since despite the lack of Drizzle, Rain teams are still very strong with Kingdra and Tornadus both in the tier, combined with other common abusers such as Kabutops and Ludicolo existing and the old Liepard and Uxie still existing, and in general are very tough to deal with since rain-boosted Waterfalls and Hydro Pumps/Surfs from Kabutops and Kingdra hit hard beyond all belief and they outspeed almost everything under rain. Tornadus is also crazy strong. Sun teams have been workable with Torkoal in the tier and the use of things such as Venusaur and the like being good, though rain is definitely the more powerful playstyle since Kabutops and Kingdra have the means to work well on their own. Sand I think is also pretty usable with Gigalith being in the tier and Stoutland being a strong sand sweeper, though I've yet to see many sand teams in what time I did spend so far.

    Other than that, some old threats are still doing wonderfully as they have before. Bronzong is pretty awesome with its ability to somewhat check Shaymin and Nidoqueen and the like. Mega Glalie has also been pretty killer as a breaker especially with Grass, Ground, and Dragon-types being common in the tier making its powerful Ice moves extremely good to use, it's a really wonderful Pokemon right now as it was before. The lack of Alomomola in the tier definitely helps it too (it's been years since RU hasn't had Mola as a major force, man it's nice and refreshing for once). Sharpedo is also really awesome as a cleaner, and Psychic Fangs is also a nice boon to its movepool to give it the edge over certain threats such as Kommo-o.

    So far the meta has been pretty interesting, hoping for Lucario and Crawdaunt to be banned/suspected soon like everyone else, but other than that it's been pretty fun trying out the beta RU metagame. It has a lot of similarities with last gen's UU for that matter too with a lot of 6th Gen UU staples in the tier. This is just my massive dump of thoughts so far but it's been very interesting playing the early RU meta, I may have more to say the more I play.
  16. Rennyjesus


    Apr 9, 2012
    Virizion is far from a Daunt counter... it receives HUGE damage even from those resisted hits and LO Crabhammer + Aqua Jet does more than 83% MINIMUM, which means two layers of spikes or one layer + SR and Virizion is going home just with freaking resisted hits... unless you propose a bulky set that could be subpar in this offensive meta...
    eifo, cyanize, Fannyfan and 1 other person like this.
  17. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Dec 5, 2012
    Salazzle @ Poisonium Z
    Ability: Oblivious
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Nasty Plot
    - Fire Blast
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Taunt

    Allow me to present this absolute monster of a stall/core breaker. It has several qualities that allow it to supremely mess up defensive Pokemon, namely its typing that makes it immune to burn and poison, access to Taunt to shut down Pyukumuku, and Oblivious so it can't be Taunted or Encored or anything. With 0 Atk investment and its item being a Z-crystal, Salazzle takes minimal damage from Foul Play and Knock Off, meaning Sableye is actually setup bait, in addition to other popular bulky Grass- and Fairy-types also falling victim. Stall doesn't even have the option of trying to bait a Taunt with Pyukumuku and switch to Espeon to reflect the Taunt and give Pyukumuku a chance to fight back, since Salazzle will be immune to its own Magic Bounced Taunt. From there, Salazzle can use its powerful dual STABs to tear house, and Acid Downpour gives Salazzle the power to bust through most bulky Waters. Sludge Bomb is favored over Sludge Wave for the higher poison chance, and it yields the same BP for the Z-move anyway.

    +2 252 SpA Salazzle Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. 204 HP / 56 SpD Vaporeon: 502-592 (111 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252 SpA Salazzle Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Milotic: 420-495 (106.5 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Not to mention, it has amazing Speed and power for a stallbreaker, so its matchup against offense is by no means bad, especially with its 2 STAB nukes and very helpful 4x Grass and Fairy resistances. Of course, as you can tell, this set has issues with Rock-types, but so long as you can lure them out with some sort of Flying-type or whatever or punish them with some other setup sweeper, such as Lucario or Virizion, you should be in the clear to make some fireworks fly.
  18. Patrick1088


    Jul 7, 2013
    Just wanted to discuss Salazzle a bit. As a sweeper, it's okay. But, I have been having fun with this set.

    Salazzle@ Black Sludge
    Timid Nature (0 Attack)
    248 HP/ 8 Def/ 252 Speed

    This set is frustrating to face. SubDisable cripples slower choiced mons while Sub eases prediction. It is actually a great lure for Nidoqueen. Sub on the Earth Power, Disable and then proceed to toxic and hit with flamethrowers while you have to deal with resisted Ice Beams, Flamethrowers and Sludge Waves. EVs are so that you get max speed, while having a significant chance of Foul PlaY from Umbreon to not break subs. Resists to Fire, Poison, Grass, Fighting, Bug, Fairy and Steel grant it multiple switch ins and forces many switches.

    I like to pair it with Phys Def Chesnaught (handles water, rock and ground types while being a good switch in to non-ice beam Daunt) and Umbreon (that stacked Psychic weakness hurts).


    Just started with the team, but it is definitely fun to use.
    King Wynaut and Geronimosemiro like this.
  19. Geronimosemiro


    Nov 1, 2016
    Lol I actually got destroyed by that Salazzle set. Totally caught me off guard. In fact, I think it was you yourself who used it. Salazzle is indeed great as a speedy offensive poison attacker too.
    Patrick1088 likes this.
  20. Lord Death Man

    Lord Death Man i cant read
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Mar 23, 2014
    I've been using this, but with Sub instead (forgot it got taunt tbh). +2 Acid Downpour also gives you the ability to break spdef Diancie after SR, which is really cool. General stuff I like about it is that Acid Downpour is usually enough of a nuke, unboosted, to function versus offense, especially with it's great (117!) speed tier, it's entirely possible to build a successful team that has no hard Salazzle checks (offense usually just has a faster mon and/or Crawdaunt), due to the lack of good Fire types and the fact that, despite both being Poison type special attackers, Nidoqueen and Salazzle don't share many counters.

    Also, it can run Dragon Pulse > Taunt to let it easily OHKO Dragalge/Flygon, which can let it function as a lure as well, giving it some widely applicability on teams - keeping in mind that a sludge bomb poison will usually let you stall the hell out of Pyuku's Recovers, unless it's Soak + Toxic which can ALSO be played around. Similarly, Toxic can be a niche option for similar reasons, doing more to cripple Gigalith/Rhyperior. Cool mon that I think got better with the absence of Suicune and increased popularity of Chesnaught/Florges.

    While I agree it's not a counter, a switch in to Crawdaunt on offense is incredibly rare, which is what Virizion really excels at being. Viriz is kind of in a weird place where it feels not horrible but not great, but I think it's a pretty decent mon overall, just hard to support.

    Crawdaunt has issues coming in versus the kinds of teams Virizion is used on, and has a lot of difficulty freely clicking Crabhammer/Knock Off when it does get in versus those teams, so surviving a Crabhammer + Aqua Jet is adequate for it to do what it should be doing.
  21. Miyami~~


    Nov 16, 2015
    Wanted to talk about a quirky mon that is saved largely by two broken moves and a surprising ability to switch into some top Pokémon:
    Shiinotic @ Leftovers
    Ability: Effect Spore
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Strength Sap
    - Spore
    - Moonblast
    - Giga Drain

    The EVs can be tweaked, as I'm not really that sure on how to EV this thing myself. Mixed Defensive makes it a better mixed wall but opens you up to a 2HKO from Crawdaunt's Knock Off (Seriously that mon is busted), so I'm running Max Max to be a cold stop to Crawdaunt. Shiinotic is a pretty basic mon, it switches in, spores whatever your opponent brings in to kill it, and leaves. While that's simple, Spore is busted and opens up a huge amount of momentum for your team, as it will usually force a switch or just give you a free turn to do whatever anyways. Strength Sap is equally broken, as the move combines insane healing (Seriously, I've healed 70% off of some special attackers) along with Intimidate, letting you be an even bigger check to physical attackers, force switches, and live much longer than you'd ever think. Shiinotic's primary (And Biggest) use is to stop Daunt and otherwise generally be a nuisance with its unique typing, Spore, and Strength Sap. It does that well, but it's not a particularly amazing mon and you should only really use it if you really hate Daunt.

    Once Daunt leaves, I'm going to mess around with it more, as it still gives a lot of the tier's fat waters a headache and Spore + Strength Sap is too good to pass up.
  22. Mega meganium

    Mega meganium

    Dec 3, 2016
    Feraligatr seems to be really underappreciated right now, but it's one of the strongest pokemon in the tier. Sheer force boosted moves obviously hit really hard, and it's also got good physical bulk, good coverage, and an excellent defensive typing.

    Calcs (open)

    +1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 172-203 (46.3 - 54.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    +1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 261-308 (72.5 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 263-309 (66.7 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +1 252 Atk Flygon Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 246-289 (79 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Another decent option for a last moveslot is encore, which often gives free setup opportunities. Also, I've seen sludge bomb being used over wave, but wave is probably better because it does a little more damage and more importantly hits through bulletproof (though I've seen a lot of kommo o go for soundproof for swellow.)

  23. Robert Alfons

    Robert Alfons The birds don't sing, they screech in pain
    is a Tiering Contributor

    May 6, 2013
    I'd still pick Sludge Wave over Sludge Bomb, not just for the slightly higher damage output, but also because using Sludge Bomb makes Kommo-o a counter after you used your z-move. Considering the differences between the two moves are marginal, you can go either way, but I feel higher damage output instead of poison chance is more useful vs non-stall teams (don't forget that Salazzle's STAB combo and speed make her excellent vs more offensive teams as well) and considering how common Kommo-o is shaping up to be, it's nice to be able to break through that without relying on yr z-move.

    That being said, Salazzle is a very solid addition to the tier rn, used it a bit and it seems to have a lot of potential. Darm and Entei being gone really helps it since it now isn't overshadowed by stronger fire types.
  24. HydraOfLight1255

    HydraOfLight1255 formerly DarkWyvern0209

    Mar 28, 2011
    That set sounds really nice! It looks exactly like the Defensive Vileplume set for Gen 6 NU and that thing was annoying. But regardless, this set looks like it can stop Daunt in it's tracks. Not to mention the best part of this:

    0 SpA Shiinotic Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Crawdaunt: 302-356 (113.1 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    0 SpA Shiinotic Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Crawdaunt: 236-282 (88.3 - 105.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

    252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Shiinotic: 112-133 (34.6 - 41.1%) -- 58.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Shiinotic: 109-129 (33.7 - 39.9%) -- 29.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Just based on those calcs, Shiinotic absolutely dominates Daunt! Can take a few switch in hits from it. Whereas if Daunt stays in, it's DEAD!!!
  25. Avocado

    Avocado formerly Arikado
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus

    Jul 17, 2010
    I also used Salazzle for a while and I gotta agree she's very solid right now. Her speed tiser is absolutely incredible being only outsped by Talonflame and Swellow, and LO makes her a really strong sweeper without the boost, while nasty plot breaks stall on her own. The 4th moveslot after NP/Fire Blast/Sludge Wave(/bomb) depends on what you want. Sub, HP Electric, HP Ice, Taunt, Encore, maybe even Toxic (with Corrosion) all seem like viable options. From running some quick calcs it seems like the only way Salazzle can KO some bulky waters is with z-poison crystal tho which is just a tad bit overwhelming. +2 Sludge Wave still does a fuckton to anything though.

    Also another pokemon I've been using is Necrozma. I used to think Necrozma is ass but honestly I think it's super good. It competes heavily with Uxie and maybe Mesprit and Reuniclus as a Stealth Rock user and/or an offensive psychic, but I think it carves itself a niche with its relatively high speed that it has over Reuniclus and it's really strong offensive presence (and good recovery) over Uxie, whereas Uxie has U-turn and Memento over Necrozma.

    This is the set I've been using:

    Necrozma @ Leftovers
    Ability: Prism Armor
    EVs: 112 HP / 252 SpA / 144 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Stealth Rock
    - Psychic
    - Moonlight
    - Hidden Power [Electric]

    The speed is for Jolly Crawdaunt with max SpA and the rest in HP. HP Electric is also mainly for Crawdaunt (it has a high chance of OHKOing after SR, and worst case scenario you'll do like 80% and it'll kill itself with LO) but it also hits the likes of Mantine and Slowbro as well. Necrozma's bulk pretty much allows him to never get OHKO'd by anything including super effective hits thanks to Prism Armor and do really heavy damage with max investment and Psychic. I honestly think Necrozma will be a top tier SR setter imo. I just wish it had /1/ more good move for coverage.. tbolt, signal beam, shadow ball, anything ;_;

    Maybe an LO set could be a thing on Necrozma also but I don't like it at all on paper, it needs the bulk!! also dark pulse could potentially be an option on it to beat psychics but for now I like HP Electric's coverage against crawdaunt specifically.
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