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Metagame NP: SM RU Stage 0 (Beta): Green Light (Talonflame Banned)

Discussion in 'SM RarelyUsed' started by atomicllamas, Mar 10, 2017.

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  1. EonX

    EonX One and Only
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    So I wanted to talk about two Pokemon in particular that I've been enjoying quite a bit:

    [​IMG]

    Venomoth @ Buginium Z
    Ability: Tinted Lens
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Quiver Dance
    - Bug Buzz
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Sleep Powder / Roost

    Venomoth is easily one of the most dangeorus sweepers right now. It's able to setup on virtually every Fairy-type and lost two key offensive checks in Entei and Darmanitan. Each of the new drops can't really handle it with the lone exception of Scarf Flygon (not all that good rn imo) Once Venomoth gets off a Quiver Dance, there aren't many teams that can fend it off. The severe lack in good Scarfers above base 90 Speed, less priority users, and more common defensive Fairies with the additions of Flygon and Kommo-o all contribute to Venomoth being an insanely good wincon for offense / bulky offense teams. Savage Spin-Out is insanely powerful with Tinted Lens backing it; capable of OHKOing Kommo-o from full with just a single boost. Sludge Bomb is mandatory to hit bulky Waters and Kommo-o should you have to use the Z-move on something else as the 30% poison chance can let you break them. Sleep Powder creates setup chances for Venomoth and, in particular, lets it 1v1 Mantine if its Z-move is expended already. Roost is still nice against fatter teams or teams that try weakening Venomoth into KO range of certain priority. Overall, it's a pretty easy Pokemon to set up and if you're wanting a wincon for more offensive teams, look no further.

    [​IMG]
    Honchkrow @ Life Orb / Flynium Z
    Ability: Moxie
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Brave Bird
    - Sucker Punch
    - Superpower
    - Steel Wing / Pursuit / Mirror Move

    While it's not as easy to support as Venomoth, it's still very worth your time to support Honchkrow as it's a very powerful force in the meta. Brave Bird, Sucker Punch, and Superpower smacks around most of the tier for heavy damage. Steel Wing is the primary option to shut down Diancie and to KO weakened Rock- and Fairy-types without resorting to Brave Bird (recoil) or Superpower (stat drops) Pursuit can be nice to catch fleeing opponents on the way out, particularly with the Flynium Z variant since Steel Wing loses a lot of power without Life Orb. Mirror Move is exclusively an option for the Flynium Z set as it gives Honchkrow an instant power boost on something it forces out or a Pokemon that simply can't harm Honchkrow. Adamant is almost always preferred for the boost in power, but note that Jolly is certainly an option as quite a few Pokemon aim for Adamant Honchkrow as a Speed benchmark. Note that only Life Orb variants can really afford to use Jolly as the Flynium Z variant needs all the power it can get. As for which variant to use, Life Orb is preferred as it keeps your Z-move open to something else on the team to use (examples include Flygon, Venomoth, etc.) but should your team not end up having a Z-move user, then it's a perfectly usable option. While Flynium Z Honchkrow fares much better against bulkier teams that rely on Brave Bird and Life Orb recoil stacking up too quickly for it, the Life Orb variant has a much stronger matchup against offense and bulky offense teams where Sucker Punch is needed on multiple targets and you may not always be able to get the chip damage you need for the Flynium Z variant to KO them.
  2. Moutemoute

    Moutemoute

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    [​IMG]
    Crawdaunt @ Flyinium Z
    Ability: Adaptability
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Dragon Dance / Swords Dance
    - Crabhammer / Aqua Jet
    - Knock Off
    - Aerial Ace

    It's Crawdaunt's Time !
    Crawdaunt is basically one of the best Wallbreaker in the tier but he has a several counter aka Chesnaught and a pretty nice new check : Kommo-o.
    This set is a usefull Lure. Dragon Dance is better than SD to my mind cuz it allows Crawdaunt to ouspeed Kommo-O and Toxikroak at +1. I've nost testing yet the Adamant version so I cannot say if run Adamant is better than Jolly.
    After a Dragon Dance, Crawdaunt can easily rekt both of the Pokemon I talk higher.

    +1 252 Atk Crawdaunt Supersonic Skystrike (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 306-362 (105.1 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 Atk Crawdaunt Supersonic Skystrike (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 312-368 (82.1 - 96.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +1 252 Atk Crawdaunt Supersonic Skystrike (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 464-548 (122.1 - 144.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 Atk Crawdaunt Supersonic Skystrike (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 350-414 (114 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    +1 252 Atk Crawdaunt Supersonic Skystrike (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shiinotic: 308-364 (95 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
    +1 252 Atk Crawdaunt Supersonic Skystrike (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shiinotic: 308-364 (95 - 112.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
  3. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
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    To add to the Z-move craze:

    [​IMG]
    Durant @ Darkinium Z
    Ability: Hustle
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Hone Claws
    - Iron Head
    - Crunch
    - Superpower

    Z-Hone Claws Durant is something a good number of people have known about for a while now, though I believe this set offers the overall most optimum coverage for the tier. +2 Iron Head does a lot of damage, cleanly OHKOing the likes of Shaymin as an example of its power. Crunch offers useful coverage against the likes of Bronzong and Jellicent, with the latter cleanly 2HKOed after +2, but the beauty of Darkinium Z Durant is that you can hold off on boosting Hone Claws further and instead go for a Dark-type nuke:
    Of course, it's important to know when it would be necessary to save your Z-move for Crunch or for Hone Claws, but with these kinds of calcs, you'd hardly be missing X-Scissor and Rock Slide as coverage, with the only real remaining reason being Rock Slide to hit the surprisingly pesky (albeit uncommon) physically defensive Vikavolt, but even then:
    Superpower rounds out the coverage nicely, crushing Steel-types like Registeel after +1 and Escavalier after +2 (and Stealth Rock), as well as certain Fighting-types such as Emboar after +1 and Bewear after +2. With that said, while Steel / Dark / Fighting is already perfectly neutral coverage, Thunder Fang may be considered to dispatch of bulky Waters such as Milotic, Vaporeon, and Mantine much more efficiently, and takes out Qwilfish with some chip damage.
  4. Notily

    Notily

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    Just a few quick thoughts on some mons:

    [​IMG]
    In a tier thats a little lacking for offensive hazard control, opposing hazard stack can be annoying to deal with on offense. Anything that can make your opp think twice about clicking hazards without being deadweight offensively is a good thing. Almost every form of hazard control outside of Flygon and maybe Gligar usually doesn't add much in terms of momentum, so Espeon is really nice to alleviate some of the pressure that opposing hazard stack can apply. Although I've seen more of the CM set (mostly on stall), Specs is also quite good, and can pump out some solid damage:

    Calcs (open)

    252 SpA Choice Specs Espeon Psychic vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Mantine: 148-175 (39.6 - 46.9%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    252 SpA Choice Specs Espeon Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 244 Def Mantine: 195-231 (52.2 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    252 SpA Choice Specs Espeon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 184+ SpD Bronzong: 180-212 (53.2 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    252 SpA Choice Specs Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 183-216 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    252 SpA Choice Specs Espeon Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 211-250 (52.3 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    252 SpA Choice Specs Espeon Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 180-213 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    252 SpA Choice Specs Espeon Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 210-248 (47.6 - 56.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    252 SpA Choice Specs Espeon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma: 216-255 (54.2 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery

    252 SpA Choice Specs Espeon Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem: 240-283 (61.3 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock



    I haven't really experimented with Psyshock vs Psychic, but both hve arguemnts going for them. Shadow Ball is fairly necessary, and while it's coverage options aren't the greatest, it does have some decent ones. HP Fire can lure Escavalier, Grass Knot can 2HKO SpDef Gigalith in sand / OHKO Rhypherior, while Dazzling Gleam can be run to hit darks. It also gets access to Trick to cripple any of its checks if you'd rather take that route.

    [​IMG]
    Glalie @ Glalitite
    Ability: Inner Focus
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    Naive Nature
    - Double-Edge
    - Freeze-Dry
    - Ice Shard
    - Spikes

    Although steels are a problem, Ice is as fantastic of an offensive type as ever, especially with the influx of dragons + Nidoqueen. Ice Shard is also fantastic priority, being able to stop things like DDance Kommo-o / Flygon and non-Subbed Hawlucha in their tracks. Glalie forces plenty of switches with the power of Double-Edge, and most of its checks are easily exploitable with the help of teammates (eg. Escavalier for zong and fat psychics, fire types for slow af steels, etc). Being able to lay Spikes on those switches is also a plus when you can use threats like Hawlucha and Lucario to blow through the tier after some chip.

    Spirit edit: removed giant images. use smaller sprites in the future
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2017
  5. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas look who's diggin their own grave, that is what they all say
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    The RU council had its first quickban vote for RU beta. Thank you to the rotating council (Feliburn, Arikado, EonX, slurmz, and MrAldo) for voting.

    Lucario, Crawdaunt, Venomoth, Hawlucha, and Kyurem are banned from the RU tier.

    votes for the first suspect (open)

    [​IMG]
    *Meru and DTC abstained as they felt they did not have enough experience in the beta metagame


    Lucario Reasoning (open)

    Lucario is the most threatening and customizable set up sweeper in the entire, not only can it choose between its Nasty Plot and its (even better) Swords Dance set, but even within its Swords Dance set it can pick and choose its counters by choosing between Iron Tail, Ice Punch, and Crunch in the last slot. On top of completely nullifying defensive teams thanks to its strong dual STAB and coverage moves, but it also excels against offense thanks to its access to STAB priority moves and Extreme Speed, meaning that often there is nothing an offensive team can do against a +2 Lucario. While it is sometimes difficult for Lucario to set up against offense as it is not the bulkiest pokemon, its extremely useful defensive typing allows it to find set up opportunities against even offensively inclined teams. Lucario is simply too powerful and versatile to properly prepare for in the RU tier.


    Crawdaunt Reasoning (open)

    Crawdaunt is way too threatening for RU as a wallbreaker and stallbreaker, while still functioning extremely well against offensive teams thanks to its access to adaptability boosted aqua jet. Very few pokemon are capable of taking Knock Off + Aqua Jet, and Crawdaunt can run coverage moves such as Aerial Ace or Ice Beam in the last slot to deal with these Pokemon. This doesn't even mention Crawdaunt's powerful SD and DD sets which after a turn of set up can simply tear through stall and balance respectively.


    Venomoth Reasoning (open)

    A decently fast pokemon with Sleep Powder, Quiver Dance, usable defensive typing, and almost unresisted STAB thanks to Tinted Lens is extremely hard to deal with. When you add in the newly introduced Savage Spin-out (bugnium-z Bug Buzz, 175 bp), it is simply unreasonable for the tier. A set of Sleep Powder, Quiver Dance, Bug Buzz, and Roost is incredible against both offensively inclined teams (thanks to sleep powder) and defensively inclined teams.


    Kyurem Reasoning (open)

    Kyurem's combination of bulk and power is still too much for RU. Its Choice Specs set is incredibly hard to switch into, especially given Ice's great neutral coverage, while it has several options to hit typical Ice and Dragon resists. On top of the powerful Choice Specs set, Kyurem also is capable of running a solid Sub Roost set which can effectively break through the opposing team with hazard support.


    Hawlucha Reasoning (open)

    Thanks to Hawlucha's excellent dual STAB and access to SD, Hawlucha has a total of 2 counters in RU. And thanks to Unburden it has very limited offensive counterplay. The thing that pushes Hawlucha over the edge is how easily it can set up on staple RU mons such as Donphan, Gligar, and Gigalith, as well as choice locked fighters. Its efficiency as a set up sweeper is only outdone by Lucario making it too much for RU at this time.


    Tagging The Immortal to get this implemented on the RU beta ladder, thanks!
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2017
  6. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas look who's diggin their own grave, that is what they all say
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    Also if you're wondering why we voted on Necrozma, we are too. Feel free to ask Arifeen.
  7. Lord Death Man

    Lord Death Man i cant read
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    I'm not surprised by any of the bans except maybe Venomoth, who I just didn't expect to be on the slate. I'd be interested in seeing explanations for no-bans as well, since I think it can add some level of insight into why people make the choices they do.

    I'm surprised that Bewear survived, though not too horrible surprised - we haven't had too much time to play with it, after all. I do think that it's a rather unexplored mon for just how hideously annoying it can be in the offense vs offense matchup, alongside being a pretty solid wallbreaker. I think it's notable that I haven't seen many posts on it and I think it's currently flying under the radar as a threat.

    What does Z-Hone Claws do better than Life Orb? I personally find the lack of power unboosted to be damning to Durant's already strained offense matchup in the current meta, though it is very cool that z-Crunch can't miss.

    I'm also a fan of Espeon - it's a decent enough mon on it's own merits that has one of the most annoying abilities in the game. I've had success with a life orb set featuring 3 attacks and morning sun, and I imagine 3 attacks + calm mind (I'd run Psyshock or Psychic/Hp Fire/Dazzling Gleam) and 4 attacks sets work fine. Being faster than Galvantula (and therefore able to at least break it's sash) and able to survive any one hit from Nidoqueen is also very nice, though switching into Galv is a huge risk.

    That being said, it's certainly possible for someone to build a balance team that just isn't that weak to Espeon at all, which is incredibly unfortunate, and outside of Magic Bounce it's just kind of a meh mon - no one ever used Kadabra last gen, for example, and it's barely worse than Espeon statwise.
  8. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
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    Well for one, the ability to lure unsuspecting Doublades to their instant doom is oh so satisfying. Another reason is that I've always considered Life Orb Durant to just be a tad bit risky to set up Hone Claws with; LO Durant either just starts attacking immediately so often that it usually ends up reducing its health to the point it can't set up anymore, or it does manage to safely set up, but still has to contend with its dwindling health which can occasionally allow priority or just clever pivoting to stop your sweep short.

    I mean, that's just my personal opinion on LO HC Durant since it is perfectly viable, and it is also of my opinion that 4 Attacks AoA Durant fares better against offense than LO Hone Claws anyway, since the chance to set up rarely arises and the extra coverage can help you against offense's/balance's bulkier pivots.
  9. ChrystalFalchion

    ChrystalFalchion
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    Wonder if Drampa will be any better now that Kyurem's gone. It hits like a truck, and takes hits reasonably well too. Does still compete with Dragalge, although it has reliable recovery and a better movepool.
  10. Gorechomp

    Gorechomp

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    In all seriousness, I'm glad all these clearly broken pokemon are gone so I can finally enjoy playing RU again. That being said I feel that now that Kyurem is gone, Dragalge is the next best thing and a great replacement. Fairies obviously can't switch into it, Adaptability hits like a truck, has good coverage in focus blast and HP fire, and even sets up T-Spikes to boot. This is the set I've had the most fun with:
    [​IMG]
    Barrier Reef (Dragalge) @ Dragonium Z
    Ability: Adaptability
    EVs: 204 HP / 252 SpA / 52 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Draco Meteor
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Focus Blast

    Pretty dank dragon lol
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
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  11. Ajna

    Ajna

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    Gorechomp that set is really nice, but run wave over bomb because you don't wanna have to z move/draco on chesnaught. you also already poison most stuff with t spikes, so the extra power from wave is also nice.

    ion usually post, but i'm bored in class and you guys are still sleeping on gatr.
    [​IMG]
    Feraligatr @ Life Orb
    Ability: Sheer Force
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpDef / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Waterfall
    - Crunch
    - Ice Punch

    i know someone brought up this mon a little bit ago, but i wanted to touch on/reiterate how good of a sweeper gatr is. many teams are underprepared for gatr which just makes sweeping with gatr more easy. the most common grass types on offense are viriz and whimsicott and they're ripped apart by ice punch. viriz is outsped and killed from +1 ice punch and while whims can encore if it comes in on gatr's dd, it dies from ice punch. gatr is bulky enough to take hits and set up on a lot of teams, and the only reliable check to gatr right now on balance/bo is wood hammer chesnaught (ches still takes 75 max from +1 ice punch though lol). sd gatr is also a really cool wallbreaker that will get better as the meta becomes more bulky from the new bans, but dd is currently more effective because of the offensive nature of the tier.

    edit: jolly outspeeds ribombee, talon, and swellow, but like who cares
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2017
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  12. Arikado

    Arikado العدالة تمطر من فوق
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    Have you guys ever tried building balance.. and then you realize the following: you have no psychic/fairy check!! But you don't wanna run Escav cuz he's a momentum sink and slow af, and you don't wanna run Doublade cuz he's not the best check to them cuz its like 3hko'd by any special attack, and also slow and a momentum sink!! and realized you had no other options?

    Well fear no more cuz THERE IS another option and y'all always doubting me and saying its shit but it's not. Been using this since the wishlist meta before RU alpha where we had even less steels to use

    [​IMG]
    Silvally @ Steel Memory
    Ability: RKS System
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Iron Head
    - Crunch
    - U-turn

    Just wanna say that don't bother running this if you don't also have wish support cuz it's useless without it. You'll have to stick with Escav if you run no wish support cuz that relies on Wish a bit less than Silvally. Anyway, about the set itself.. I know, you're thinking, who the fuck runs SD AND u-turn ?? and why not parting shot?? well, the entire idea behind this specific steelvally set is to come in on specific psychics/fairies (Necrozma, Florges, Whimsicott, Diancie, Comfey, and maybe, very maybe Gardevoir), and either force them out with Iron Head or set up on them. It's not meant to actually be an SD sweeper like your typical Talonflame and co, it's meant to be a game-long counter to the Pokemon I mentioned and it can setup SD, dish out one attack or U-turn out. As long as Silvally has forced out whatever it's countering it did its job. Silvally pretty much can get a guaranteed SD if it comes in on those mons, or gain momentum with u-turn. I like u-turn over parting shot personally so as to not feed milotic free +3 with competitive and because the chip damage is nice. I found success in using this alongside Flroges (for wish), Mantine (good synergy overall), and scarf flygon w/ u-turn. Overall I think steelvally has a specific niche in being a psychic/fairy counter that has speed and u-turn to act as a decent pivot. I think a better EV spread could potentially be made, and I might want to try out toxic over SD some time. Also, I use Iron Head over Multi-Attack for the flinch chance and because so far I haven't seen any scenarios where multi-attack gets a kill/2hko that Iron Head doesn't.

    Also all other forms of Silvally suck ass and should never be used I think, unless I can be proven wrong and ghostvally somehow turns out to be an amazing spinblocker or something but I doubt that.
  13. Complicating

    Complicating

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    I feel like we should pay some serious attention* to Heracross, Cloyster, Gatr, Cresselia, Necrozma, and possibly Shaymin. Not that Durant and Espeon aren't complete monsters either.
    From experience, Feraligatr is just so threatening to deal with because of its good natural bulk and obscene benefit from sheer force boosting its most common moves by 1.3. After a D-dance, neutral speed Gatr will be just shy of 383 (Swellow's maximum speed). So for RU, there aren't very many mons that can outpace +1 Gatr without a scarf or a boost themselves. LO+Sheer Force is nothing to joke about. Waterfall+Ice Punch+Crunch/EQ/Aqua Jet is fantastic coverage.
    Cloyster has been regarded as one of the most amazing late game sweepers/cleaners available, and I don't think that merit has changed much at all. I don't want to go into detail with Cloyster because it is simply Shell Smash+Skill Link+Rock Blast+Icicle Spear+Priority/Other Move which should explain itself very well.
    Heracross is without a doubt a very solid offensive threat in a lot of situations. The Scarf+Moxie cleaner/sweeper set is very easy to use to spam STAB or to pick up a quick revenge kill with. Heracross also has a respectable enough speed stat that it can run banded to power through something with ease. (Seriously, what pokemon wants to take a base 120 power Bug/Fighting STAB attack from a 349 attack stat?) Access to Guts can enable use with a choice band set to lure in something to status Heracross but running Guts is more often used with SD 3 attacks complemented by a flame orb held item. Heracross is nothing to ever sleep on from my experience.
    Cresselia is just too fat. I understand that it is a pretty passive pokemon in general context, but in reality, we all know what Cresselia can do and how well it can do its job. CM+Sub+Moonlight or CM+2 attacks or CM+2 attacks+Sub on Cresselia are the main part of what makes it so dumb. The unlawful 120/120/130 bulk actually allows Cresselia to set up on a rather large number of mons. Cresselia is the definition of a bulky sweeper and I do not feel that RU will want to keep this legend around for too long.
    Necrozma has just recently been introduced to RU, but in all honesty it is a potentially unholy beast. It has very solid bulk which also can benefit from its ability in Prism Armor (same thing as Solid Rock/Filter). Necrozma's stats are all pretty good to say the least. Its speed falls a little short, but even then there are various ways to make up for it. Necrozma has a quirky movepool in general, but the fact that Necrozma is here now with a fair amount of versatility and different offensive and defensive sets. I don't know exactly how to feel about it just yet, but I know it should be a focal point for RU right now.
    Shaymin is still here and I only say it should possibly be given attention because it's not Celebi. Shaymin was a solid threat in UU for quite a long time during ORAS until Celebi moved down.
    *By "pay some serious attention," I mean that these mons should be given some thought because they are all here and none of them are something to sleep on.*
  14. Omicron

    Omicron ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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    It's been literally a day since Crawdaunt, Hawlucha, Kyurem, Lucario, and Venomoth have been banned. As said in the tiering thread, possible suspects for quick bans will be looked at each week during RU's Beta stage and voted on by the council. While your statements have truth to them, as the Pokemon you mentioned are indeed quite powerful and have a large impact on the current metagame, the whole purpose of this tiering method is to make sure certain threats are worth banning before actually voting on them out of the tier, hence the weekly quick ban phase.

    As for a specific response to your statements, I do agree that Feraligatr has been pushed out of the shadows and into the spotlight thanks to the banning of its main competition, Crawdaunt. While Feraligatr was never bad per se, Crawdaunt not only had dual STAB over it but also hit relatively harder thanks to higher Base Power STAB moves and access to Adaptability. Now that Crawaunt is gone, it can truly shine. Dragon Dance and Swords Dance sets are both viable, with the former terrorizing offense teams and the latter easily wallbreaking with its sheer power after a single boost. I'm personally a bigger fan of the Dragon Dance set since it is harder to revenge kill without a Pokemon that has a Choice Scarf and it boasts superior coverage since SD Gatr will most likely run Aqua Jet.

    The remaining Pokemon that you mentioned I don't really see as banworthy at the moment, simply because they are all rather easy to play around, especially once you know their set. Necrozma is extremely susceptible to Taunt, as are most variants of Cresselia, and while the former possesses a good Special Attack stat, it lacks coverage moves beyond Hidden Power, making its offensive prowess limited prior to setting up. Cresselia is extremely bulky but really lacks any sort of offensive presence and can oftentimes be used as setup bait.

    Heracross has quite a few hard checks and counters, including but not limited to: Gligar, Cofagrigus, Doublade, Nidoqueen, Jellicent, Qwilfish, etc. While Heracross can carry coverage moves to hit some of these Pokemon, it requires prediction and / or the loss of a more important coverage move. Heracross is also relatively slow, so it is easily revenge killed by a host of Pokemon barring Choice Scarf variants. I won't deny that it is a strong Pokemon in the RU tier, but I hardly think it's worthy of a ban at the moment.

    Cloyster is an interesting Pokemon, mostly because it has the capability to play two very different roles on a team. Most notably it has access to Toxic Spikes and Spikes as well as Rapid Spin, making it a great utility addition to a team, or it can go the offensive route with Shell Smash and attempt to sweep. The reason why I don't think it's worth looking at for a quick ban is similar to my reasoning above. It can be hard stopped by a few Pokemon, and it becomes susceptible to priority after it has weakened its defenses with Shell Smash. Its average offenses mean that it sometimes won't even be able to OHKO bulky Pokemon like Milotic and Slowbro after a Shell Smash boost, and is easily revenge killed in return. Its utility set is rather mediocre as it is weak to Stealth Rock itself, meaning that its ability to come in and remove entry hazards is quite limited. Its abysmal Special Defense also leaves it KOed or heavily weakened by most neutral special attacks.

    Shaymin has always been a good Pokemon, but suffered similarly to Feraligatr, as it was mostly outclassed by Celebi prior to it departing the tier. Now that Celebi has gone, Shaymin has become really useful. Seed Flare is really hard to switch into especially if the 40% chance to lower Special Defense by two stages occurs, and Shaymin's access to Synthesis and a host of good coverage moves like Psychic for Poison- and Fighting-types, Dazzling Gleam for Dragon-types, and Earth Power for Steel-types makes it difficult to deal with outside of dedicated special walls like Florges. I'm not entirely sure if this warrants a look into for a quick ban, but it is certainly one of the most useful and powerful picks on offense and balance teams at the moment.

    Overall I'm really enjoying the current metagame with the recent quick bans, as it really frees up teambuilding, as you won't need a check to Specs Kyurem, or a switch-in to Crawdaunt (those hardly exist to begin with). I've been playing around with a lot of different things such as webs offense and other Quiver Dancer users. I can't say for sure what might be next on the chopping block, but I can say that the current metagame is a lot better off than it was before.
  15. Senpai D.M

    Senpai D.M Zzz
    is a Tiering Contributor

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    Messages:
    312
    Mfw no kingdra discussion
  16. Complicating

    Complicating

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2015
    Messages:
    87
    Isn't drizzle banned? I'd honestly be more surprised if Tornadus stayed with Kingdra in the tier due to prankster rain. I don't know. Kingdra is a 50/50 for me in all honesty. It's still probably too powerful to stay if there are solid rain setters for it.
  17. ddhelmet

    ddhelmet

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2016
    Messages:
    26
    Rain was always a thing in the RU metagame, and this generation it has another abuser in Kingdra.
  18. Geronimosemiro

    Geronimosemiro

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2016
    Messages:
    5
    Just curious, has anyone been successful with Trick Room other than me? With all these major threats gone I think it's a lot more viable. I've been running Camerupt (hopefully mega gets released) + Araquanid + Bronzong + Alolan Golem + p2 + Aromatisse and it rarely gets me an L. Reuniclus and Bewear can be fit in if adjustments are made.
  19. MaahirMomtaz12

    MaahirMomtaz12

    Joined:
    May 9, 2016
    Messages:
    138
    Mega Camerupt would start in OU not RU so if you're expecting that in RU don't expect it for a while LOL
  20. theDSC

    theDSC

    Joined:
    May 11, 2014
    Messages:
    73
    Venomoth is starting to become the mascot of BL2 just like how Staraptor is the mascot of BL...

    It just so happens that these recent bans came into the limelight as soon as Suicune got the boot. Looking at it again, I noticed that Suicune acted as a good blanket check to a lot of them; it generally has the bulk to take one hit.
    Stacy Ritter likes this.
  21. Patrick1088

    Patrick1088

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2013
    Messages:
    1,226
    Enjoying this meta much more now since those quick bans. I am seeing some really interesting sets, including Spin blocker Silvally-Ghost (Shadow Ball/Flamethrower/ Parting Shot).

    Personally, I am running HO hazard stacking with Z-Memento Whimsicott. I keep forgetting about Dark Types being immune to Prankster moves (like Encore, and Memento).

    I also just want to say that Cloyster is an underrated threat (mentioned earlier). Hazards + Z-Memento gives it good opportunities to sweep.
  22. Oglemi

    Oglemi oh my gosh you found me
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
    Secret Boss Mod

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    If y'all aren't using CB Bewear you're doing something wrong, this thing is like the greatest thing to happen to RU in forever. Superpower/Return/Ice Punch/Payback is all you need to basically obliterate the entirety of the tier and I can't stop laughing as I take out 80% from shit like Diancie at every hit. I haven't found a single downside to using it either, the fact that it isn't OHKOed by basically anything counteracts its low Speed, which isn't even that low, and the fact that nothing apart from Doublade switches in "easily" means something's getting taken down from this thing every match. It's like playing with a god-like Durant with no set up required. I also messed around with Darkinium Z Bewear but it's still only doing ~35-40% with Payback to Doublade unfortunately, but I found it doesn't really miss the power from CB all that much so I'm sure someone will find something better.

    Another mon I found to be incredible is Cloyster, it doesn't really win games as easily as I was hoping but man just the threat of it coming out and the ease that it can actually grab a boost really forces your opp to play carefully.

    Last big mon right now I found great is Cress, I was just messing around with the Twave set from BW RU and it was ok but I haven't had a chance to really optimize it yet. I think Toxic is going to be better here as its damage output is just too passive and there's quite a few threats that like to use it as setup. I can see SubCM putting in some crazy work here tho, or just bulky Calm Mind with Ice Beam.
    Plasmagby, Sacri', EonX and 11 others like this.
  23. ShatteredSummers

    ShatteredSummers

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2014
    Messages:
    123
    Echoing the format of the post above me,

    I'm surprised that so many people are sleeping on Strong Jaws Bruxish.
    [​IMG]

    • Hits like a tank. Defensive mons are a joke next to this.
    • It's relatively fast.
    • Has Aqua Jet to revenge kill.
    • It gets Swords Dance?!
    • OHKOs Slowbro with +2 Crunch, and OHKOs everything else with Psychic Fangs.
    P.S. Oglemi is right to point out Bewear's bulk:
    252 Atk Life Orb Strong Jaw Bruxish Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Fluffy Bewear: 283-335 (74.2 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Zero-HP Bewear is tanky enough to survive a Life Orb Psyfang. Pretty impressive.

    Another Pokemon of interest is Shell Smash Minior. I've been running this along with Taunt + Dual Screens Virizion:
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Minior @ White Herb
    Ability: Shields Down
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Shell Smash
    - Rock Slide
    - Earthquake
    - Acrobatics
    • Can destroy most sun teams reliant on Torkoal / Venusaur / Mantine.
    • Turns Gligar into setup fodder.
    • Can't be statused in Meteor Form, and gains 120 base speed in Core Form.
    • Unfortunately, low damage until Core Form emerges.
    • This replay.

    Lastly, I've seen some creative/effective sets from other battlers. Just some of the cool things I've seen.
    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG]
    • Support Alolan Persian: Taunt, Foul Play, Z-Parting Shot (which heals its switch-in).
    • Eviolite Type: Null
    • Sub / Toxic Araquanid: can poison Mantine, its common switch-in.
    • Bulky Vikavolt: Toxic, Roost.
    • Fightium-Z Reuniclus: 180 BP Focus Blast, which OHKOs most of Reun's Steel-type checks.
    • Focus Sash Kadabra: Acts as a revenge killer to +1 Tyrantrum, Kommo-O, etc, b/c Magic Guard nullifies Spikes damage. Fast too.
    • Phys. Defensive Mantine: Checks Araquanid, Talonflame, and Heracross.
    • and many more
    I've been victim of some embarrassing sweeps by these Pokemon:
    • Steelium-Z Klinklang
    • Poisinium-Z / Encore Salazzle
    • Specs Swellow
    • Dodrio
    • Trick Room Reuniclus
    • Slush Rush Alolan Sandshrew (don't ask).

    tl;dr RU Beta is a super diverse metagame where tons of underlooked Pokemon and creative strategies have the potential to shine. I'm liking it a lot!
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2017
  24. Hiddenfreezer

    Hiddenfreezer

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2012
    Messages:
    266
    Just want to remind you guys of a classic RU Pokemon.


    [​IMG]


    Yanmega @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Tinted Lens
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Bug Buzz
    - Air Slash
    - Giga Drain
    - U-turn

    95 Base Speed: Faster than Bruxish -> Unlike the banned Venomoth it can simply threaten Bruxish due to its superior speed stat. Very useful.
    POWERFUL

    252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge: 168-200 (52.8 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Mantine: 152-180 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    Weakpoints
    Stealth Rocks
    Gigalith: 252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand: 126-150 (33.6 - 40.1%)
    Florges: 252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Florges: 138-164 (38.3 - 45.5%)

    But here is the nice thing: If you U-turn and predict correctly any kind of supporting offensive Steel Type can destroy those. It was banned in old RU for a reason!


    Another notion:

    [​IMG]

    SF Body Slam is strong. In general very useful as a fast cleaner like back in RBY. But I didn't try it out that much so can't form an opinion about it that can showcase if its viable in RU or not. I feel like it is viable simply due to the newly gained Accuracy
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2017
  25. G-Luke

    G-Luke We Eat Losers
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2015
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    1,475
    I personally prefer its Speed Boost set along side Specs Kommo-O (best thing to happen to RU tbh) to shred apart offensive teams.

    Yanmega @ Life Orb
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Ability: Speed Boost
    Timid Nature
    - Protect
    - Bug Buzz
    - Air Slash
    - Giga Drain / Hidden Power [Ground]

    Kommo-O @ Choice Specs
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Ability: Bulletproof
    Timid / Modest Nature
    - Clanging Scales / Draco Meteor
    - Focus Blast
    - Flamethrower
    - Flash Cannon

    Kommo-O breaks stuff that wall the bug til its ready to sweep
    tenkai likes this.
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