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Metagame NP: SM RU Stage 2 - The Cure (Bewear FREED)

Discussion in 'SM RarelyUsed' started by atomicllamas, Jun 7, 2017.

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  1. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas but then what's left of me?
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a defending SPL Champion
    RU Co-Leader

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    We are officially no longer in RU Beta with the recent shifts (granted its been forever anyways)!

    The initial ban list for RU is every mon listed as OU and UU here as well as the following pokemon and abilities:

    bl2 things (open)

    Baton Pass
    Bewear
    Drizzle
    Hawlucha
    Kyurem
    Lucario
    Suicune
    Talonflame
    Tornadus
    Venomoth


    From RU Beta we have lost the following mons:

    [​IMG] Nidoqueen
    [​IMG] Smeargle

    And we gained nothing.

    The council will be using this shift period to assess the meta and in approximately a week will hold a vote in order to remove any pokemon that are potentially broken. Following that we will continue to retest pokemon that are deserving of a retest.

    In the mean time feel free to discuss how Nidoqueen leaving the tier will change the metagame (or Smeargle, lol), what pokemon are potentially suspect/ban worthy in the new metagame, or anything about the RU tier.



    NP song because PS is cured and we finally got stats + official RU.
  2. EonX

    EonX One and Only
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    In all my time of playing RU (keep in mind that I've played since BW2, so this won't count BW1 tier changes) it's hard for me to think of how much impact one Pokemon (I'm not counting Smeargle because it was so uncommon lol) moving up from RU potentially has for the tier. Nidoqueen was quite literally the glue for offense. Almost every form of offense could run it because it did so many things in one teamslot. Scarf Heracross check? Use Nidoqueen. Need a Stealth Rock user to beat Mantine + Gligar in one slot? Nidoqueen's got you covered. Need a Doublade check? Nidoqueen can do that. Need a bulky Stealth Rock setter on balance that still can pressure the hell out of Gligar + Fairies? Yup, Nidoqueen can do that. It's amazing how easily Nidoqueen fit on bulky offense and hyper offense teams and its physdef set kept Balance from having to use a Stealth Rock user that forfeited Defog to Gligar 90% of the time it comes in.

    There's only one comparison that I can think of: early ORAS Cobalion. I know that Cobalion was my spirit animal during that time of ORAS, but both did the same thing to hold offense together; condense many notable roles into a Stealth Rock user. Once Cobalion left, RU offense fell apart mostly back in ORAS and I forsee the same thing happening here. As great as Spikes Offense still might be with all the offensive threats RU has, there's no way to fit a Pokemon in that sets Stealth Rock, beats Gligar + Mantine, checks Heracross, and checks Doublade. No one Pokemon can do what Nidoqueen did. So, here's a few notable Pokemon that I feel get big boosts from Nidoqueen's departure:

    [​IMG]

    This one is super obvious. Scarf sets can freely run Stone Edge now without worrying about PhysDef Nidoqueen (and offensive Queen to a lesser extent) holding it back. Fat teams are also going to get a lot better and Flame Orb Heracross demolishes those anyway. Strong Pokemon already and it just got even better.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Another couple of obvious Pokemon, but Gligar and Mantine can't be beaten by the same Stealth Rock user anymore. Virtually every Stealth Rock setter forfeits Defog to one of them and SpDef Gligar also gets a bit of a buff since it now has a reason to run the spread in case Necrozma gets popular as an offensive Rocker over Nidoqueen. Acrobatics variants of Gligar also check Heracross, which is looking better and better by the second.

    [​IMG]

    With its top bulky offensive threat gone, Doublade stands to flourish. It can still easy discourage the use of Heracross's STAB moves (and Facade on the Orb set) and Speed creep is going to be a thing once again with Doublade as Rhyperior is a pretty solid replacement for Nidoqueen on bulky offense teams. And anyone who was around for XY knows how obnoxious the Doublade v Rhyperior matchup can be. Turn up those afterburners! You might need them.

    Virtually every bulky Water-, Fairy-, and Ground-type under the sun as well as Fighting-types at least get marginally better with Nidoqueen not around to harass them with its typing and powerful coverage. Also look out for Toxic Spikes Dragalge. Without Nidoqueen, there's no "splashable" Poison-type and Drag can still pressure the hell out of Gligar and Mantine with Devestating Drake.

    In a nutshell RIP SM RU Offense. It will never be the same again. Not unless we get Nidoqueen (or her brother, Nidoking) back at some point.
  3. MrAldo

    MrAldo (llsshock)
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    We losing nidoqueen is an absolutely massive change. No other stealth rock user offered this insane amount of role compression for offensive teams so these obviously take an insane hit in terms of effectiveness... probably too much, which is sad, especially with all the offense beaters around... looking hella rough, and offensive rocker options are hella limited but lets discuss potential "replacements" for teams.

    [​IMG][​IMG] Rhyperior is obviously the next on the line in terms of direct replacements, since it was the competition for Nidoqueen in terms of Ground type rock setter, with some advantages with the fire resist and normal resist and Rock stab. Obviously Nidoqueen outdones Rhyperior in terms of effectiveness thanks to the other bunch of stuff Nidoqueen did (tspikes absorber, wallbreaker, coverage, threaten defoggers more effectively, etc) but Rhyperior can definitely work, especially without Nidoqueen around I believe it can become the prime option for offensive teams like it was on the XY days. You would obviously have to rework your teams... like completely, but not every hope is lost!

    [​IMG] I dont care about the memey opinion regarding this mon, especially after the Arifeen antics (LOL), but I believe an offensive stealth rock set can definitely work after some extensive use. A set with stealth rock / charge beam (yeah, believe it or not) / Psychic / Dark Pulse or Moonlight with like a Mind Plate/Twistedspoon is actually pretty good and functional, and probably the only offensive SR user that comes close to the offensive presence Nidoqueen has. Charge beam despite being ass coverage, like legit, it kind of works to improve Necrozma offensive presence to fairly threatening levels thanks to its high SpA stat and helps to threaten the omnipresent Mantine, since boosted psychics will hurt and the combination of Psychic + Charge Beam can kill after rocks. Dark Pulse is nice to nail Doublade and other Psychic types that would have an easier time switching into it and stuff. This has potential, it had it already with Nidoqueen, but now even better.

    [​IMG] Im not a fan of a Diancie that struggles to 3hko Umbreon so offensive SR diancie have been something I have used extensively and can testify of its effectiveness. Stealth Rock / Moonblast / Earth Power / Diamond Storm (probably power gem if you push me) has been good with a ground resist berry (Shuca) and Passho cause fuck Sharpedo (and a panic button against stuff like Kingdra). Probably not much reason to run Shuca without Nidoqueen around but the offensive investment makes the difference into damaging stuff that can normally switch for free and increasing the odds against stuff it should beat (lol, Umbreon). So yes, this is certainly a possibility Id like people to explore more. Not everything is that Z-Heal Bell Diancie set, smh.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] Other mons I will try as offensive stealth rock setters to fill the goddamn void, oml, I hate UU.

    More to come. And to think this is just the initial impact...
  4. Miyami~~

    Miyami~~

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    Here's an alternative for an offensive rocker:

    [​IMG]
    Mesprit @ Electrium Z
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 Def
    Timid Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunderbolt / Thunder
    - Psychic / U-Turn / Healing Wish

    Presenting to you... Bad Pink Nidoqueen! Mesprit, much like Queen, is an offensive rocker with BoltBeam. It does actually have a few perks, such as levitate, a higher speed tier (Being the fastest offensive rocker), and being a fair amount bulkier than Nidoqueen, allowing it to take attacks decently. Unfortunately, that's where the positives stop. Even at Max SpA without a boosting nature, you fail to OHKO Gligar without rocks on the field and Mantine even with rocks on the field, necessitating Gigavolt havoc, which also thankfully dents Doublade sufficiently. It also lacks pretty much all the defensive utility Nidoqueen has, and let Fairies in for free. Lastly, Mesprit has severe moveslot issues, as if you want to use a utility move, you need to give up STAB. BoltBeam is just too crucial and pretty much it's only niche. Overall, only use this if you want a Rocker that's capable of pressuring Gligar + Mantine.
  5. yCocokie

    yCocokie

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    Nothing from UU and they take Nidoqueen ? So tough :[
  6. bb skarm

    bb skarm Driving like I'm drunk but I'm off that lean
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    IMO I think dragalge is going start to make its mark as a higher end Pokémon in tier. Without nidoqueen to punish it, and sun starting to be the premier form of offense, it's going to be a hard stop to most sub teams and isn't going to have to worry about nidoqueen bullying it. It's such a power house and it pressures so many mons in the tier (comfey, Shaymin, chesnaught all come to mind) and as more people play the tier it's going to be evident that it will be a great team building option especially because of how it serves as a wallbreaker but check to many things
  7. EviGaro

    EviGaro

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    While sun will probably make its mark again, I'm more interested in how sand can be developed as a playstyle following Nidoqueen's rise. My main concern when building sand, be it an offensive variant or more of a balance approach, was always how extremely difficult Nidoqueen was to prep for, since as a playstyle it didn't quite had the opportunities to make use of the few safe switches to that mon. Bronzong couldn't fit with Gigalith (And well, it's Bronzong), Umbreon was fine on some builds but has this tendency to make your team highly defensive oriented, and Curselax struggled with residual and competition with Reuniclus being so ridiculously good.

    Now though, it does seems potentially easier. Options like Diancie/Necrozma/Mesprit are largely covered by Gigalith's ridiculous bulk, whereas rocks Rhyperior struggles with Reuniclus - needs too much defensive investment to really hurt it, although there's always potential there - and without Icium, Chesnaught, another key sand mon imo. Lots of exploration left to do, and I hope more people will do so because Sand is actually a really fun archetype to build and play around, and not being bopped turn one by the opposite rocker seems obviously very nice.
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2017
    G-Luke, Randomnick, Funbot28 and 5 others like this.
  8. Molk

    Molk Godlike Usmash
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    So, here's a Pokemon that i've been testing out a little.


    [​IMG]
    Guzzlord @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Beast Boost
    EVs: 252 SpA / 196 SpD / 60 Spe OR 252 SpA / 244 SpD / 12 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Draco Meteor
    - Dark Pulse
    - Fire Blast
    - Sludge Wave

    The thing that lets Guzzlord stand out from RU's other options is its Dark/Dragon typing, which gives it a set of resistances that allows it to check a unique pool of Pokemon in one teamslot, including CM Electrium-Z Reuniclus, Physical variants of Sharpedo (Waterfall, Crunch, Psychic Fangs), Doublade, and Venusaur, among others. On top of that, Guzzlord is capable of doing all of this without being a passive "do nothing" Pokemon, since it has a tangible offensive presence. The given EV spreads accomplish different things, the first EV spread allows Guzzlord to outspeed everything up to minimum speed base 50s, while the extra Special Defense in the second EV spread allows Guzzlord to survive certain attacks that the first EV spread can't. For example, it lets Guzzlord always survive two Timid LO Roserade Sludge Bombs after one round of SR damage, and it can always survive one Choice Specs Zoroark Focus Blast and LO Reuniclus's Focus Blast after SR as well. The Speed EVs in the second spread allow Guzzlord to outspeed minimum speed Dragalge, although most Dragalge should be running a bit of Speed themselves imo.

    Now, i'm not saying that Specs Guzzlord is an amazing Pokemon by any means, it's prone to getting worn down due to its lack of recovery, and despite its unique qualities i still think other Dragon-types such as Dragalge, Goodra, and Kommo-o are better most of the time, but i think it might have some use as a niche pick on certain builds that need extra insurance against the specific set of threats that it can handle. I posted a few example damage calcs below, so check those out if you want!

    Reuniclus (open)


    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 404-476 (95.2 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

    (sadly you'll need a bit of prior damage to always OHKO Reuniclus from full health :[)

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Dark Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 270-320 (63.6 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Dark Pulse vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 204-240 (48.1 - 56.6%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO

    (63.6+48.1=111.7, so Guzzlord will always be able to outspeed and 2HKO CM Electrium-Z Reuniclus even if it CMs up to +1 as Guzzlord switches in, then CMs again after the first Dark Pulse, even with absolute minimum damage rolls.)


    +1 0 SpA Reuniclus Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Guzzlord: 140-165 (23.8 - 28.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 0 SpA Reuniclus Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Guzzlord: 186-219 (31.6 - 37.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    +1 0 SpA Reuniclus Thunder vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Guzzlord: 83-98 (14.1 - 16.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 0 SpA Reuniclus Thunder vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Guzzlord: 111-131 (18.9 - 22.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock


    +6 0 SpA Reuniclus Thunder vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Guzzlord: 221-261 (37.6 - 44.4%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    +6 0 SpA Reuniclus Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Guzzlord: 372-438 (63.3 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    (CM Electrium-Z Reuniclus can barely even touch Guzzlord in return, +6 calcs are just for fun)

    252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Guzzlord: 424-499 (72.2 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    (Guzzlord can always survive a LO Reuniclus Focus Blast after Stealth Rock, meaning that you can switch into it once regardless of whether Reuniclus attempts to go for Trick Room or Focus Blast on the first turn. As mentioned above, sadly Specs Dark Pulse is a roll to OHKO in return, but if you have practically any prior damage on the Reuniclus you should be able to KO it for sure)


    Sharpedo (open)


    252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Guzzlord: 147-173 (25 - 29.4%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Guzzlord: 147-173 (25 - 29.4%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    (Physical Sharpedo can't really do a lot of damage to Guzzlord because of its natural bulk and resistance to both of its STABs+immunity to Psychic Fangs, adding a very slight amount of Defense EVs ensures that Waterfall/Crunch will always be a 4HKO after Stealth Rock instead of having a slim chance to 3HKO)

    252+ SpA Life Orb Sharpedo Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Guzzlord: 265-312 (45.1 - 53.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ SpA Life Orb Sharpedo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Guzzlord: 121-142 (20.6 - 24.1%) -- 75.6% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ SpA Life Orb Sharpedo Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Guzzlord: 87-103 (14.8 - 17.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock

    (Guzzlord is a significantly shakier check to Special Sharpedo, but it can still *sort* of answer it as long as you don't switch directly into an Ice Beam)


    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sharpedo: 580-684 (206.4 - 243.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sharpedo: 283-334 (100.7 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sharpedo: 178-210 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sharpedo: 164-193 (58.3 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    (Both Draco Meteor and Sludge Wave unsurprisingly OHKO Sharpedo)


    Doublade (open)


    160+ Atk Doublade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Guzzlord: 296-350 (50.4 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    160+ Atk Doublade Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Guzzlord: 196-232 (33.3 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
    160+ Atk Doublade Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Guzzlord: 86-102 (14.6 - 17.3%) -- guaranteed 6HKO after Stealth Rock
    160+ Atk Doublade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Guzzlord: 49-58 (8.3 - 9.8%) -- possible 9HKO after Stealth Rock

    (Guzzlord is able to survive any attack+an immediate Shadow Sneak from standard Doublade after Stealth Rock)


    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 350-414 (108.6 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 322-380 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 142-168 (44 - 52.1%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO

    (Guzzlord is able to reliably outspeed and OHKO Doublade with either Dark Pulse or Fire Blast)



    Venusaur (open)


    +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Guzzlord: 407-480 (69.3 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Guzzlord: 204-242 (34.7 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Guzzlord: 157-186 (26.7 - 31.6%) -- 49.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 252+ SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Guzzlord: 313-369 (53.3 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    +2 252+ SpA Venusaur Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Guzzlord: 329-387 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ SpA Venusaur Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Guzzlord: 165-194 (28.1 - 33%) -- 93.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    (Standard Venusaur sets can never 2HKO Guzzlord after rocks unboosted, and can never OHKO Guzzlord after Stealth Rock at +2)


    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Venusaur: 285-336 (94.6 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Venusaur: 175-207 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Venusaur in Sun: 484-570 (160.7 - 189.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Venusaur: 322-380 (106.9 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Venusaur: 139-164 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- 57.8% chance to 2HKO

    (Fire Blast will cleanly OHKO Venusaur regardless of whether sun is up or not, Draco Meteor is a roll to OHKO)
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2017
    Gorechomp, passion, Rakan and 17 others like this.
  9. -Tsunami-

    -Tsunami- VoD Leader Metabeast
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    RU Co-Leader

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    omg guys we voted on stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    The rotating council for this round consisted of EviGaro, Feliburn, and Rakan aka Omicron bop.

    The RU council voted on Drought, Heracross, Reuniclus, Sharpedo, and Zoroark.

    The results were the following:

    Drought (open)

    Ban: Ajna, Mr. Aldo
    No Ban: -Tsunami-, Arifeen, atomicllamas, col49, DTC, EviGaro, Feliburn, FlamingVictini, Kushalos, phantom, Rakan


    Heracross (open)

    Ban: none
    No Ban: -Tsunami-, Ajna, Arifeen, atomicllamas, col49, DTC, EviGaro, Feliburn, FlamingVictini, Kushalos, Mr. Aldo, phantom, Rakan


    Reuniclus (open)

    Ban: Kushalos, Mr. Aldo
    No Ban: -Tsunami-, Ajna, Arifeen, atomicllamas, col49, DTC, EviGaro, Feliburn, FlamingVictini, phantom, Rakan


    Sharpedo (open)

    Ban: Mr. Aldo, Evigaro, Rakan
    No Ban: -Tsunami-, Ajna, Arifeen, atomicllamas, col49, DTC, Feliburn, FlamingVictini, Kushalos, phantom


    Zoroark (open)

    Ban: Kushalos
    No Ban: -Tsunami-, Ajna, Arifeen, atomicllamas, col49, DTC, EviGaro, Feliburn, FlamingVictini, Mr. Aldo, phantom, Rakan


    As a result of these votes, nothing will be banned from the RarelyUsed tier at this time.
  10. eifo

    eifo

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    i cri everytiem:(
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  11. -Tsunami-

    -Tsunami- VoD Leader Metabeast
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    RU Co-Leader

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    Because there are no tier shifts this month, the illustrious RU council has decided to reintroduce a banned Pokemon into the tier. The previous council vote that was conducted a few weeks ago was overwhelmingly in favor of not banning anything in the current metagame. Therefore, this seems to be the ideal time to retest a banned Pokemon.
    We have decided to retest Bewear. It will be reintroduced into the ladder, and a rotating council + the current council will vote on its fate. A simple majority is needed to ban it.
    Please use this thread to discuss your thoughts on Bewear and its impact on the current metagame.

    The Immortal if you could unban Bewear on the RU ladder, it would be much appreciated :)

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2017
  12. Venoxio

    Venoxio

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    damn this thread has been dead lmao

    anyway even if the ladder isn't up yet Bewear looks crazy good. its movepool allows it to go unresisted across the whole tier (Normal/Fighting is only resisted by Ghost anyway, but the most prominent one, Doublade, gets 2HKOed by Banded eq and hoopa and mismag can't really switch in without taking massive damage or being OHKOed if the bewear is running shadow claw) and its bulky enough to stomach hits from every prominent physical attacker in RU bar Honch and Hera. 125 attack boosted by CB is insane in this tier and its coverage 2HKOes the entire tier at worst except probably Cress. however, fighting looks to be pretty bad defensively right now with mons like reuniclus and cress running around and its normal typing doesn't really do it many favors either with Hera being dominant (Guts having a chance to OHKO, guaranteed after rocks) and things like zoro running fighting coverage nowadays. Fluffy, while making bewear a complete sponge defensively, doesn't repair its ass spdef and weakens it against things like sun teams (and drought is very good atm) and even outside of sun still weakens you against things like salazzle and hp fire from roserade if you choose not to run leaf storm. however, fluffy otherwise is pretty dope, letting you 1v1 things like +1 gatr and lax, but it still doesn't protect you against things like flygon (unboosted groundium z does 99 max, lol). I'll have to play the ladder before i think its still banworthy or able to be unleashed.
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2017
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  13. Homiedino

    Homiedino

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    Bewear has already proven to be a top-tier Pokemon in RU, if not outright broken. Its amazing 125 attack combined with good movepool, great hp, and its ability Fluffy, it wallbreaks better than any mon in the tier. The CB set is the most common: being adamant, max attack, max speed with return, superpower, shadow claw, and ice punch/earthquake. This mon has very few checks, the most common being Cresselia, Doublade, and physdef Sableye. Because of this (and the fact Bewear forces a lot of switches) I've made a set that destroys all 3 of those checks.

    upload_2017-7-10_18-17-12.gif

    Bewear @ Ghostium Z
    Ability: Fluffy
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Double-Edge/Return
    - Superpower
    - Shadow Claw

    SD Bewear is very satisfying, and not hard to pull off either. Switch it into a Pokemon that is choice locked into a weaker move, or into a physically offensive/ specially defensive Pokemon. That pokemon will switch into a Pokemon that can "check" Bewear, in which Bewear can SD. After that, carnage ensues.

    CALCS:

    +2 252+ Atk Bewear Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Cresselia: 418-494 (94.1 - 111.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    +2 252+ Atk Bewear Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 281-331 (92.4 - 108.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    +2 252+ Atk Bewear Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 306-360 (95 - 111.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    +2 252+ Atk Bewear Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 376-444 (100.5 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    +2 252+ Atk Bewear Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bronzong: 367-433 (108.5 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    +2 252+ Atk Bewear Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 440-518 (111.6 - 131.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    +2 252+ Atk Bewear Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 382-451 (106.1 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    The only mon in this group that could avoid being OHKOed after rocks is Sableye. However, this can be circumvented two ways: A, predict Sableye to switch in when Bewear fires off the Z-move. B, continue to SD on Sableye when it burns Bewear:
    +6 252+ Atk burned Bewear Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 280-330 (92.1 - 108.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    This set might take a while to get used to, but it obliterates stall, bulky offense, balance, and even regular offense. NO POKEMON IS SAFE.




  14. EviGaro

    EviGaro

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    I think my issue with that set is quite simply, why not Heracross or Pangoro? Both of them can pull off SD - or four attacks in Hera's case - better than Bewear can as they have more threatening stabs and can harass stall a lot more since they're not walled by Quag. Z-move Salazzle + one of them is a far more potent combination, while being good against several playstyles as well. It can be a decent lure, but taking away the power of CB while cutting a lot in its defensive abilities with Double-Edge seems a bit counterproductive to me.

    Obviously it's early, but as someone who didn't really consider Bewear broken the first time around, I don't think the meta as it stands is as close to threatened by it as it even was before. Defensive builds have to consider both Pangoro and Heracross as noted before, and even offensive teams usually pack Doublade and a few solid ground and ghost resists, forcing Bewear to predict a lot. Also, the rise of offensive powerhouses like Roserade, Shaymin, Salazzle, Moltres, even Reuniclus limits what Bewear can check physically, although it is a really nice offensive check to Gatr, Snorlax, Comfey and Physical Shark, which if anything is beneficial to the metagame in my opinion. But it is a long week and we'll see!
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2017
    tmacbalanced, eht, tenkai and 11 others like this.
  15. Homiedino

    Homiedino

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    Double edge isn't necessary for this set, but double edge ensures ohkoes on mons like florges and mantine. Return can always be used; in fact, that's what i run on this set. I imagined people would want to run d-edge for added power. I understand your criticism, I think it's valid. However, this bewear has the advantage of being able to switch up moves, not allowing it to be walled by rhyperior if locked into return. And with bewear checking half the tier due to Fluffy, it's fairly easy to set up an SD. I do acknowledge though, that CB bewear does better against offense than this set. Just thought I'd add an interesting set that can throw opponents off-guard.
    Many and Samsuro like this.
  16. phantom

    phantom
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    It doesn't come close to checking half the tier. At most, it's like a couple of good offensive mons and some setup sweepers that it can switch into once or twice before being too weak to swap in again, and it has to watch out for already good special sets Pokémon like Zoro and Shark can employ to run past it.

    I think Bewear is a good Pokémon overall and it adds something nice to the tier, but I wouldn't consider it top 10, much less broken. Despite how good its ability to check certain physical attackers may be, you can't overlook how quickly it gets worn down, which makes it difficult to check those Pokémon consistently. It doesn't help that it can't afford to run bulk because of how important the Speed investment is in getting the jump on various walls, which despite that, is still horribly slow. The SD sets are way less threatening against defensive teams than other harder to counter, wallbreaking SD Fighting types that stall teams are already prepared to play around, and the Band set, while good, is pretty easy to beat with the presence of Protect users. Even against offensive teams, there's plenty of Pokémon that can 1hko Bewear, like Gardevoir, Roserade, Salazzle, Moltres, Kommo-o, Swellow, etc, and because it has no way to circumvent its low Speed, it's not a difficult Pokémon to pressure with physical attackers, some of which, even without Fighting coverage, it does poorly against because Fluffy doesn't provide a buffer for Earthquake. There's also a lot of guesswork involved in landing a hit against offensive teams due to the presence of Doublade + any ground immune. I just don't see how an extremely slow Pokémon with no priority or recovery that gets KOed by a large chunk of offensive threats and has watered down wallbreaking capabilities in contrast to other Fighting types can be called broken.
    tmacbalanced, Venoxio, eht and 6 others like this.
  17. pokeisfun

    pokeisfun formerly hilarious
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    It was just one point made out of many, but SD Pangoro and SD Heracross are countered/checked defensively by Gligar and Golbat while the same cannot be said for Bewear because Fluffy. So it's not completely accurate to say preparing for previous SD Fighting Pokémon means you're prepared for SD Bewear.
  18. EviGaro

    EviGaro

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    I suppose you could make that argument, but it hardly matters as much as getting hard countered by Quag unless you run Normalium Z, which is again a big concession to make as a z-move user. Additionally, Golbat/Gligar are already troublesome counterplay to both of them regardless, given Knock, rocks damage, or a potential Ice Punch coming from Pangoro. In other words, those two are already incredibly hard to prep for and don't need to make much sacrifices to keep their niche, whereas once you get out of the CB set Bewear is almost always left wanting or potentially outclassed.
    tmacbalanced and pokeisfun like this.
  19. pokeisfun

    pokeisfun formerly hilarious
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    It's not so much as an argument as an observation but I definitely agree with your point that the SD fighters in general are very hard to wall. Still, Quagsire takes about 46% on average from Superpower/Double Edge so it's not much of a hard counter because Unaware ignores the Superpower drops.
    tmacbalanced likes this.
  20. Robert Alfons

    Robert Alfons The birds don't sing, they screech in pain
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    Bewear looks neat, haven't played with it but it looks like people are coming to terms with it so that's nice since that'll give the tier a way of dealing with some obnoxious mons like Feraligatr. I'm here to talk about something else, though.

    [​IMG]
    This piece of trash. I feel like there are plenty of mons in the meta that deserve closer inspection, but one thing that needs to go for sure is this thing, imo, and for one reason: the fucking Calm Mind set. Sure, the OTR set exists and it's good, but you never really see that and we all know why: the CM set is just that much better. This set is absolutely busted for several reasons:

    1: Gigavolt Havoc. This one's the elephant in the room, obviously. In a world without Z-moves, Reuniclus would have serious coverage issues, since you'd usually either opt for Shadow Ball and get walled by several Dark- and Steel-types or use Focus Blast and find yourself in trouble against opposing Psychic-types and Doublade. Thunder would be a more niche option, hitting more targets neutrally but lacking the power to bust through Psychic resists and being too inaccurate and low on PP to be really reliable. Gigavolt Havoc gives Thunder the oomph that it so desperately needs, essentially functioning as a high-power STAB move with no drawbacks, giving Reuniclus the power to smash through a lot of sturdy Pokemon that under other circumstances wouldn't fear it as much. For example, Umbreon would be a decent check since between stalling out Recovers with Foul Play and tanking even +6 Thunders decently thanks to its raw bulk plus the ability to use WishTect. A well-timed Gigavolt Havoc, however, destroys Umbreon, making it a shaky check at best. Water-types with Haze are also way more pressured thanks to the possibility of Reuniclus throwing a very powerful Electric-type move their way. More importantly, however, more offensively minded checks that would otherwise be able to stomach a hit from Reuniclus with relative ease and OHKO or 2HKO now struggle with it quite a bit more. Doublade is a top-tier mon that with its standard spread comes close to 2HKOing Reuniclus and can tank a +1 Thunder or even two from full (not recommended though), so it seems like a decent check. However, Gigavolt Havoc at +1 makes it way easier for Reuniclus to break Doublade, as it does ~75% at worst, and everyone who plays this tier knows it's not too difficult to chip Doublade to the point where that's an easy OHKO. These examples may not seem significant an sich, but keep in mind that without Z-moves Reuniclus couldn't reliably beat all of Umbreon, Doublade, and bulky Water-types (as well as a slew of other checks) with one set. The fact that it now can do so makes it way harder to prepare for Reuniclus, and it never was an easy mon to prepare for to begin with.

    2: Magic Guard. This is old news, but still as relevant as ever, since unlike most sweepers, Reuniclus can't be stopped in its tracks by a well-timed Toxic simply because its ability ignores that entirely. Other bulky sweepers need to go down the RestTalk route or use Heal Bell if they get it, which usually means they won't have room for a coverage move and restricts their effectiveness, but Reuniclus has no such problem. In addition to this, Magic Guard also makes it difficult to beat Reuniclus by playing aggressively, since it never takes damage from Stealth Rock and therefore hardly minds that you double switched into Heracross and forced it out. You can just come back in later. This also means that failing at sweeping with it and taking serious damage doesn't have to mean the end, since even a Reuniclus at 30% or whatever has the bulk to come in on a wall and Recover, even when Stealth Rock and three layers of Spikes are on Reuni's side of the field.

    3: Bulk + lack of weaknesses. Reuniclus is very physically bulky and after a CM or two practically impossible to kill on the special side. This means that even strong neutral hits often fail to (revenge) kill Reuniclus. Flygon's Devastating Drake, for example, fails to even hit 70% and can be Recovered off (not to mention you don't want to waste your Z-move on an attempted revenge kill to begin with); Mega Glalie's Double-Edge struggles to even do over half; Feraligatr's Crunch does 61% max and I don't have to tell you what happens when it gets hit by a Thunder. While a combination of these hits + some other strong attacker will be able to bring down Reuniclus, these simply aren't reliable answers and you usually have to let at least two things die before you can revenge kill Reuniclus properly (and like I mentioned before, nothing stops you from switching out and trying again later). Supereffective hits, meanwhile, are hard to come by. Reuniclus may be weak to Ghost- and Dark-type moves, but those types lack strong attacks that can actually break Reuniclus. The best physical Dark-type moves is Knock Off, but due to its Z-stone, Reuniclus takes reduced damage from that. Ghost-types, meanwhile, have.... Shadow Claw as their best option, which is obviously quite weak. Bug-types like Escavalier, Heracross, and Durant (X-Scissor isn't even very good on Durant) are the only ones that can actually destroy Reuniclus, and Escavalier is the only one that can switch in more or less safely.

    With these things combined, Reuniclus lacks both adequate defensive counterplay and proper offensive checks, stifling teambuilding and making it incredibly difficult to beat. Other than the aforementioned offensive Bug-types the only things (not literally but pretty much) that reliably beat Reuniclus one-on-one are Taunt Umbreon, Skill Swap Cresselia, and Curse Quagsire, all of which are either niche sets or only fit on a specific kind of build. Many a ladder player has been relentlessly 6-0d due to not knowing how dangerous Reuniclus is, which doesn't necessarily mean much, but at least other mons can be played around even when one lacks designated checks or counters. If you want a more concrete example of the potency of Reuniclus, just check out the RUPL match between Feliburn and TDK, where Feli's Reuniclus ended up sweeping most of TDK's team even though he had a Sharpedo, a Zoroark, a Registeel, and a Reuniclus of his own. I think that game does a good job at showcasing how resilient Reuniclus is and how dangerous it is even when it blows its Z-move and when it accidentally has Psychic > Psyshock (lol).

    I am of the opinion, and many others appear to share this opinion, that the meta is in bad shape at the moment, so having a few suspect tests might refresh the tier and make teambuilding less of an exercise that ends in "guess I'll throw the same 3-4 fat mons as usual on a team with a few offensive mons that complement them" since the more successful builds are starting to look dangerously similar. Reuniclus, of all mons that make the meta what it is today, is probably the most problematic of them all, so a suspect test is in order imo. Feel free to discuss if you guys feel the same way about Reuniclus and/or if there are other things that you feel warrant a suspect test somewhere down the line.
  21. MrAldo

    MrAldo (llsshock)
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    Gonna drop my 2 cents on the Bewear retest and Reuniclus

    I think the addition of bewear to this tier is definitely doable and is more beneficial than a problem. While it is certainly a tricky Pokemon to handle thanks to its immense power + fluffy being really dope, I think the tier has room to adapt against the pink bear. The tier has plenty of Ghost-types to combat against this monster, while Bewear itself makes for an excellent partner to them, Dark-types like Sharpedo and Zoroark has move on to use special sets and the defensive utility Bewear brings to the table in hard checking a couple of really annoying mons in Gatr, Physical Sharpedo, and being a blanket check to many physical attackers in general, would be good for offensive builds who have been lacking lately.

    In general, I think adding Bewear will do good than harm, and ease teambuilding a bit despite it being another threat to take into account for. But there are far more prevalents that make teambuilding annoying.

    Reuniclus is a monster, AAAAAAAAAAAAA. I know that I enjoy doing my good couple of teams 6-0d by this (look at my RMT!) but in the end playing against this Pokemon can be an extremely difficult task even if you pack checks to it. Thanks to magic guard and its excellent bulk, Reuniclus finds an incredible amount of setup opportunities against a bunch of defensive mons, and right now many teams necessitate defensive cores and guess what, there is no defensive mon Reuniclus cant take advantage for bar special cases like Quagsire. The moment Reuniclus grabs a boost the number of checks is drastically reduced to the point you can lose the game point blank, or due to a simple misplay. The addition of the z-move is just the icing of the cake, making it knock off resilient and giving it a nuke on deck to basically hit a bunch of switch-ins in one slot.

    It is too much tbh, even keeping offensive pressure can be hella tough since the bulk can come into play a lot of times, at worst trading itself with a bunch of offensive Pokemon. I basically made a tl;dr of Robert Alfons post but yeah :v

    Cheers!
    Aurora, Cheryl., Mylo Xyloto and 7 others like this.
  22. dodmen

    dodmen Ain't no tuition for havin' no ambition
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    Heracross should be strongly considered for a suspect test / quick council vote. The thing is ridiculous against any sort of defensive team, forcing them to run Acrobatics physically defensive Gligar or just lose mons to Facade, and even then, Heracross can just knock that off and 2HKO it with Facade later. There's also Colbur Jellicent, which still takes over 50% from Knock Off after losing its item, so it will eventually be forced to sacrifice itself to get ~45% off with Hex (or Heracross just SDs on a Recover and OHKOes it). Other than these two extremely shaky scenarios, there are simply no switchins.

    252 Atk Guts Heracross Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 146-172 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO / 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 204-240 (56.6 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 178-211 (46.9 - 55.6%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery / 77.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Comfey: 181-214 (59.1 - 69.9%). Draining Kiss does ~35% in return while still leaving Comfey within range of the second Facade, Dazzling Gleam does ~55%.

    The thing is, unlike stuff like Pangoro that can also 2HKO nearly anything in the metagame, Heracross also has enough speed to outspeed even a large portion of the offensive metagame. And many of the Pokemon that do outspeed it, like Zoroark, Virizion, and Rotom-C, can't even KO it. In addition, it has plenty of opportunities to come onto the field against common balance and even bulky offensive Pokemon - some examples are Rhyperior, Registeel, Milotic, Mantine, Umbreon, and recovering Snorlax.

    The ease at which it can just throw out Facade and Knock Off is ridiculous, and the way it limits any sort of balance or defensive playstyle is too much (again, run phys def Acro Gligar or lose mons, and even that's not completely reliable). I'm pretty conservative when it comes to banning things, but Heracross is just too much for the tier and makes teambuilding a huge struggle. I don't even think Bewear is broken, after an admittedly limited number of games playing with it, and don't particularly think Reuniclus is that bad either. Ban Heracross.

    Or pull a retarded DPP/BW move and ban Guts, or something.
  23. Slurmz

    Slurmz

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    I'm of the opinion that both Heracross and Bewear are both broken. But this isn't a Hera suspect so I'll venture into detailing how I think Bewear is broken and too much for the meta. Similarly to Heracross, the bear possesses a 125 base attack stat with powerful STABs. However, it's pure bulk makes it a much different monster than hera.

    And sure, it doesn't check as much as it did in Alpha, I'll admit that, but that doesn't take it away how it just 1v1s most of the fighting checks in the tier. Doublade loses to any variant 1v1, as does Gligar (especially SD), even Slowbro is 2hkoed by banded Return (and dies to +2 Z-Dedge). This thing is just ridiculous. I've played at least 30ish games with each set and the it has gotten a consistent 2-3 KOs each game.

    Just because Hera is covered on your team doesn't mean bear is. They have a completely different set of checks and both are dumb right now honestly
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2017
  24. -Tsunami-

    -Tsunami- VoD Leader Metabeast
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    The RU Council + Rotating Council (EviGaro, slurmz, Robert Alfons, Lord Esche, BOUFF) has voted on Bewear.

    The results are the following:
    Ban: Ajna, BOUFF
    Unban: -Tsunami-, atomicllamas, Arifeen, col49, DTC, EviGaro, FlamingVictini, Kushalos, Lord Esche, MrAldo, phantom, Robert Alfons
    With a 12-2 unban vote, BEWEAR IS FREED!

    Despite its strength and bulk, the shifts in the metagame rendered it a great deal more manageable than when it was banned. Bewear's main weapon in the tier is the Choice Band set, which, while powerful, is not game-breaking, especially due to the presence of Ghost-types such as Doublade and Dhelmise. Breaking through opposing teams can be difficult due to Bewear's middling Speed; its ability to easily handle contact moves is not enough to fully make up for this flaw. All in all, Bewear can still be considered a top threat in the tier, but it still has a multitude of flaws that can be exposed and taken advantage of in order to rid of the field of the fluffy bear.

    We will be be starting a public suspect later today as well.

    Slurmz please vote as soon as possible so I can edit into the thread.

    And if you wanted Bewear banned...
    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
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