np: SM UU Stage 4.1 - Shine [Weavile & Gardevoir-Mega banned]

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#1

It's time to deal with another controversial Pokemon. UU is suspecting Weavile. The combination of speed. power, strong coverage moves, and Knock Off being fair and balanced™ is what makes Weavile a major threat in the UU metagame. It's extremely frail, can't trade hits against Pokemon it can't KO, and struggles to switch-in, but once Weavile is play, it threatens a huge portion of the metagame, forces Pursuit-weak Pokemon to play mindgames, and virtually nothing switches into it freely.

The suspect test will have an N value of 20 and a COIL requirement of 2650. In addition, there will be a game limit of 90 games. It will last for two weeks. Weavile will be allowed on the suspect ladder.

You can calculate the number of games required using this formula:

N=20.0/log2(40*GXE/2650)


The Immortal please setup the suspect ladder with Weavile.

 
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#6
Good choice. We need to keep in mind that Weavile got unbanned in the Buzzwole/Conkeldurr meta, and even back then it was about an A+ on the viability rankings. With the two of them gone, Weavile doesn't have many practical checks on balance builds anymore, and offense sure as hell lacks any way to deal with this thing because a lot of the Pokémon in this meta faster than Weavile really don't like to take an Ice Shard, especially after Stealth Rocks. I can understand why people are concerned about Mega Gardevoir, but Weavile has much less opportunity cost to use while simultaneously being potentially even harder to deal with for a lot of teams.
 

Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
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UU Leader
#11
Why is Weavile allowed on the ladder?
The council has been discussing switching to allowing the suspected 'mon on the ladder for a bit. While banning Weavile on the suspect ladder is useful for giving us a preview of what a Weavile-less meta might look like, there are some problems with this method as well. The biggest issue is that it means that voters who haven't heavily explored Weavile previously will not get a chance to do so, and will vote based on whatever their opinion of Weavile was before the suspect ever began. This even applies to UU regulars (after all, why hold a suspect ladder if everyone who participates will have made up their mind before the suspect even begins), but it's especially true for those who are less familiar with UU.

By allowing Weavile on the ladder, we know for sure that everyone who is voting has played at least 40-90 games in a metagame with Weavile, and so can hopefully make an informed decision based on this. It also means that people who are on the fence get a last chance to ladder with Weavile to see if it shifts their position firmly into one camp or another.
 
#13
I'm glad this suspect test is finally happening. Although Weavile is very fragile and it rarely ever lives any attack, once it's out is guaranteed to:
1. Grab a KO on a mon weak to its stabs or anything chipped enough.
2. Pursuit trap/revenge kill with Ice Shard other offensive mons (also grabbing a very important KO).
3. At least disarm and heavily dent any incoming wall through Knock off.

With a choice band or life orb, pretty much nothing switches into it as previously stated. I feel that even though Weavile does have its shortcomings like being unable to break through a few dedicated walls (It will still cripple them with knock off) or sometimes not hitting hard enough with ice shard, compared to other fragile offensive pokemon like Terrakion, Infernape or Mega Beedrill it is too cheap and splashable on any team for it to remain in the tier.
Even if it is weak to rocks, UU has lots of defoggers and is the tier with the most viable rapid spinners. Weavile needs little to no team support to function and is a threat to every archtype.

I would also like to point out that even if it is super fragile, is not fragile enough to be picked by a few notable moves:

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 187-221 (66.5 - 78.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

96+ Atk Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 188-224 (66.9 - 79.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 176-208 (62.6 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Manectric-Mega Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 230-272 (81.8 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Sharpedo-Mega Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 216-255 (76.8 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Meanwhile you have Mega Beedrill taking your mega slot and dying to Entei even without rocks:

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Beedrill-Mega: 265-312 (97.7 - 115.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Overall I feel Weavile grabs too much momentum, forces 50/50's and it cleans late game easily. It does too much for little cost and I wouldn't mind seeing it go.
 
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eaglehawk

once known as smogon gay baby #4
#14
The council has been discussing switching to allowing the suspected 'mon on the ladder for a bit. While banning Weavile on the suspect ladder is useful for giving us a preview of what a Weavile-less meta might look like, there are some problems with this method as well. The biggest issue is that it means that voters who haven't heavily explored Weavile previously will not get a chance to do so, and will vote based on whatever their opinion of Weavile was before the suspect ever began. This even applies to UU regulars (after all, why hold a suspect ladder if everyone who participates will have made up their mind before the suspect even begins), but it's especially true for those who are less familiar with UU.

By allowing Weavile on the ladder, we know for sure that everyone who is voting has played at least 40-90 games in a metagame with Weavile, and so can hopefully make an informed decision based on this. It also means that people who are on the fence get a last chance to ladder with Weavile to see if it shifts their position firmly into one camp or another.
Didn't OU (or some tier) used to run two suspect ladders at the same time?
 
#17
Yeah, I believe it was a mistake to retest Weavile at the time when Conkeldurr and Buzzwole were both around and seemed to dominant, though I do appreciate retested some of the things banned in the early stages of UU and I do believe that should be conituned when the drops have been taken care of. This should be the last load of drops, at least before USUM potentially shakes things up, since all megas are out now, so from now it it'll be one of two things to look at the most, though most of the dangerous things that are on the line of the 3.41% usage in OU have dropped at some point and have been looked at by now. So retesting things again aren't far off, but it's probably better to look at the top threats first to avoid retesting something that'll be too good again after a few bans. While Buzzwole and Conkeldurr held Weavile back, I do believe that it's too strong for the tier now, and it'd probably vote ban if I had time to even attempt to get reqs.
 
#19
I'm glad this suspect test is finally happening. Although Weavile is very fragile and it rarely ever lives any attack, once it's out is guaranteed to:
1. Grab a KO on a mon weak to its stabs or anything chipped enough.
2. Pursuit trap/revenge kill with Ice Shard other offensive mons (also grabbing a very important KO).
3. At least disarm and heavily dent any incoming wall through Knock off.

With a choice band or life orb, pretty much nothing switches into it as previously stated. I feel that even though Weavile does have its shortcomings like being unable to break through a few dedicated walls (It will still cripple them with knock off) or sometimes not hitting hard enough with ice shard, compared to other fragile offensive pokemon like Terrakion, Infernape or Mega Beedrill it is too cheap and splashable on any team for it to remain in the tier.
Even if it is weak to rocks, UU has lots of defoggers and is the tier with the most viable rapid spinners. Weavile needs little to no team support to function and is a threat to every archtype.
In my frank opinion I believe Terrakion, Infernape, and Mega Beedrill are far more splashable because they aren't revenge killed as easily while providing the same punch that Weavile provides. Weavile's STAB attacks are good but STAB Knock Off is not good enough to consider it banworthy, which is one of the first things pointed out in the OP of this post. There are a lot of commonly used Pokemon which can take care of Weavile and revenge kill it most of all. While it's true that Weavile can easily revenge kill your Pokemon, Weavile itself is revenge killed easier than any other Pokemon in UnderUsed.

There are a number of Pokemon that can even take advantage of that. Crawdaunt and Infernape can set up Dragon Dance(SD is better on Crawdaunt IMO)/Swords Dance respectively when Weavile inevitably switches out. Magneton, Darmanitan, and Mienshao can pivot with Volt Switch and U-Turn to regain momentum. Klefki and Mega Aggron can set up Spikes and Stealth Rocks.

I would also like to point out that even if it is super fragile, is not fragile enough to be picked by a few notable moves:

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 187-221 (66.5 - 78.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Considering Forretress is one of the most common leads, Forretress can also set up Spikes, and SR+1 layer of Spikes is a guaranteed OHKO. Not to mention it's better to take the 31% chance of OHKOing than underspeeding and taking a lot of damage, potentially missing with Sacred Fire.

I personally agree though in that Entei isn't really a good Weavile check.

96+ Atk Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 188-224 (66.9 - 79.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Metagross is used more with 252+ Attack.

+----------------------------------------+
| Spreads |
| Naive:0/4/0/252/0/252 17.426% |
| Adamant:0/252/0/0/4/252 11.246% |
| Jolly:0/252/4/0/0/252 9.394% |
| Adamant:252/252/0/0/4/0 9.021% |
| Adamant:236/96/0/0/0/176 8.032% |
| Adamant:0/252/4/0/0/252 7.389% |
| Other 37.491% |

http://www.smogon.com/stats/2017-08/moveset/gen7uu-1760.txt

Metagross also has a recommended Choice Band set as well, even though you're using the Shuca Berry set. Assault Vest and Life Orb are more common, however.

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 176-208 (62.6 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Swords Dance/Dragon Dance Crawdaunt is more common and actually does beat Weavile.

252 SpA Manectric-Mega Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 230-272 (81.8 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Sharpedo-Mega Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 216-255 (76.8 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Meanwhile you have Mega Beedrill taking your mega slot and dying to Entei even without rocks:

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Beedrill-Mega: 265-312 (97.7 - 115.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Overall I feel Weavile grabs too much momentum, forces 50/50's and it cleans late game easily. It does too much for little cost and I wouldn't mind seeing it go.
I don't know where the Mega Beedrill reference came from, but Mega Beedrill vastly outspeeds threats that Weavile can't. Mega Beedrill will almost always switch out, just as Weavile would. Unlike Mega Beedrill, Weavile has a lot more checks and counters. Mega Beedrill isn't checked/countered based on it's bulk, it's checked/countered by virtue of it's average offensive typing which leaves it walled by physically defensive Rock and Steel types. Even Drill Run generally doesn't do much to the likes of Forretress or Mega Aggron. Weavile is a lot easier to outspeed and is weak to multiple priority moves.

There are a lot of bulky Water and Steel types which check/counter Weavile as well as high offensive Pokemon which can set up on Weavile or OHKO it with priority.

  1. Alomomola doesn't appreciate being Knocked Off, but on a Stall team it can just utilize Regenerator and Wish to get it's health back.
  2. If Weavile isn't running Low Kick, Cobalion can take both STABs of Weavile well and force it out in return. Cobalion can also pivot with Volt Switch to gain momentum.
  3. Crawdaunt sets up on it and beats it.
  4. Scarf Darmanitan revenge kills and can pivot.
  5. Scarf Heracross revenge kills it.
  6. Scarf Magneton outspeeds and can OHKO it or pivot.
  7. Max Attack (Life Orb) Metagross OHKOs Weavile.
  8. Scarf Mienshao outspeeds and can OHKO it or pivot.
  9. Rotom-Wash can take a hit and burn it or pivot.
  10. Scizor can OHKO it with Bullet Punch.
  11. Volcanion has good enough bulk that it can take a hit from Weavile and OHKO it in return. Z move variants take reduced damage from Knock Off and completely counter Weavile.
  12. Scarf Terrakion can revenge kill it, and non-Scarf variants can take a hit and OHKO it.
  13. Mega Aggron counters it by walling it entirely. Mega Aggron can set up Rocks, or in the rare scenario that you're running Curse, then Aggron can set up Curse boosts.
  14. Mega Blastoise has decent 79/120 bulk and can't have it's Mega Stone knocked off. Mega Blastoise is 3HKOd by Knock Off, so it counters Weavile.
  15. Forretress, despite generally being a lead, can still switch in as it has reasonably good physical Defense and also has access to Gyro Ball which OHKOs Weavile or Volt Switch which is used to Pivot.
  16. Infernape can OHKO Weavile with Mach Punch or set up a Swords Dance boost to potentially sweep the enemy team.
  17. Klefki can set up dualscreens, Spikes, and both of it's STABs can OHKO Weavile.
  18. Mega Manectric outspeeds and has Intimidate. Mega Manectric also OHKOs Weavile.
  19. Primarina has decent bulk which lets it take a hit from Weavile and hit it back with Moonblast.
  20. Mega Sharpedo outspeeds and OHKOs Weavile after Rocks.
  21. God forbid you use Arcanine, it has Intimidate, Will-O-Wisp, and Morning Sun which let it completely counter Weavile.
Personally, I'd argue that there are an awful lot of checks and counters to Weavile, and I don't believe strength and speed alone warrant a ban for Weavile, regardless of how good it's STAB combo may be. This list consists of a lot of UnderUsed Pokemon, and I don't reasonably see people not having at least one or two of these Pokemon on their teams, even if Weavile can get residual damage on one of it's would-be checks.
 
#21
as the rwby nerd, let me first play this for you.

second, let me say that fuck weavile. Yeah, it's frail. Yeah it's not perfect. The issue is, having a stab priority that hits good chunks of the tier, a stronger knock off than krookodile, and speed paired with icicle crash and the ability to either trap something or lure a steel type with low kick makes this thing a right pain in the ass.
 
#22
storm eagle Good lord man that's a long post, but for as long as it is you've kinda skimmed over some rather important details.

''While it's true that Weavile can easily revenge kill your Pokemon, Weavile itself is revenge killed easier than any other Pokemon in UnderUsed''
Pretty sure that honor actually goes to Chandelure actually, it's slow, rather frail, and weak to Pursuit.
Sure defensively Weavile is about as durable as a shaving razor from the dollar store, but it can still dice your pokemon into ribbons during the late game thanks to it's incredible speed and priority.

3. Crawdaunt sets up on it and beats it.
Unless it's running Low Kick

11. Volcanion has good enough bulk that it can take a hit from Weavile and OHKO it in return. Z move variants take reduced damage from Knock Off and completely counter Weavile.
It actually needs to be bulky with a Z-Crystal to avoid a 2HKO.

Z-move without bulk:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 113-134 (37.4 - 44.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Bulky with a normal item and the follow up hit:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 168-199 (46.1 - 54.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 113-134 (31 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Z-Crystals aren't even the most common item for Volc:
| Choice Specs 32.206% |
| Leftovers 16.950% |
| Grassium Z 15.448% |
| Assault Vest 13.683% |
| Choice Scarf 8.462% |
| Fightinium Z 7.719% |
| Groundium Z 1.573% |
| Other 3.959%

Although I'm not sure how relevant these usage stats are since Xurkitree seems to a part of them, and the meta has shifted drastically since it was here.


16. Infernape can OHKO Weavile with Mach Punch or set up a Swords Dance boost to potentially sweep the enemy team.
Yeah, but most Infernape sets absolutely hate eating a Knock Off because it robs them of their item and tips the opponent off to the set, in fact I think Scarf has a decent chance to lose 1v1 if it tries switching into a Knock with rocks up. So you're better of revenging with Nape.

19. Primarina has decent bulk which lets it take a hit from Weavile and hit it back with Moonblast.
I know it's not terribly common but Weavile can run Poison Jab for hitting the few fairies that aren't 2HKO'd by it's STAB, but otherwise yeah Prima works.

4. Scarf Darmanitan
8. Scarf Mienshao
15. Forretress


Scarf Darm is a low ladder meme, Forretress isn't much better, and Mienshao isn't really seen much.
Granted, they do work against Weavile but using them on your team isn't really doing yourself a lot of favors.

Personally Weavile wouldn't have been my first choice for this suspect, but from my experience with using it I can safely say that the benefits of having it on your team greatly outweigh the drawbacks, even if it doesn't grab KO's left and right it's pretty easy to use Weavile to weaken the opponents answers to your wincon. It's not obnoxiously busted, but it's extremely good and worth taking a hard look at.
 
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