np: SM UU Stage 4.1 - Shine [Weavile & Gardevoir-Mega banned]

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#26
It's not exactly a counter if the said "counter" loses with a flinch...
Pokemon X is a counter to the Pokemon Y if it can swich into any of Y's attack and kill it if there is no haxx on either side, so actually it can be an (unreliable) counter if it loos with a flinch.
 
#28

I don't think Weavile is broken right now for two major reasons:
  • Its checks and counters are numerous, good or very good outside the Weavile matchup, and easy to fit on any number of teams
  • It's strong and fast but not too strong nor too fast
I understand the main reasons that people want Weavile banned is that because of its above average speed, power and coverage, it can force a lot of Pokemon out or in bad situations by threatening Pursuit. I don't disagree with this observation but I do not think it makes Weavile banworthy because UU has a lot of forcing Pokemon.

On my first point, an above poster already gave a very fair list of all the checks and counters to Weavile in UU. Just because the list is long and includes some niche options doesn't invalidate it and importantly we should focus on the fact that the list includes some top tiered UU Pokemon - Scizor, Klefki, Cobalion, Physically Defensive Rotom-Wash with Z Hydro Pump, Infernape, Primarina, Swampert, Alomomola, and Mega Blastoise are all fairly solid counters or checks that can fit in on offensive teams that Weavile plays best against. It's not asking much to put a Steel or Water type on your team, they are highly useful and using at least one of the types is nearly required to make a good team. This list does not even include many defensive Pokemon that balance and stall teams have greater access to.

Go ahead and compare Weavile to the other BL Pokemon. Basically nothing else in that list has so many counters. Of course we do need to consider the point that unlike most of these threats, the nature of Weavile's power comes from its ability to instantly pressure with high speed and power. Even so, it's power is only strong, base 120 with an item and Knock Off is hardly overpowered for UU. It is just about as strong as Pokemon like Sharpedo and Mamoswine which are rarely considered suspect worthy.

As for the speed and pressure with Pursuit, I agree its great but it also requires prediction. It's not getting mindless traps on any significant portion of the metagame as nearly everything it Pursuit traps threatens to OHKO back because of Weavile's low bulk and bad defensive typing. I have no issue rewarding players who accurately balance out the risks of Pursuit and get a good payoff with it, especially considering no matter how good you are, it will eventually backfire on you.

I know there are some tournament games with it I do not have access to due to the replay issues, but here is the one SSD replay with Weavile I found:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-317245

Pak obviously found no issue fitting in multiple Weavile counters despite using offense, with Klefki, Cobalion and a Scarf Hydreigon to boot. Only through playing well for the first several turns, ending with Latias KOing Hydreigon, did tesung have a good chance with Weavile. Even though Klefki was badly weakened and Hydreigon KOd, band Weavile still could not sweep. I would argue this replay shows 3 important points.
  1. It's easy to put Weavile counters on offensive teams
  2. True Weavile can still succeed in those games, but after only playing very well (which again, Tesung did by pivoting around Nioking and killing Scarf Hydreigon) and succeeding from a pretty lucky KO on Rotom Wash (pak could easily have decided to go to Nidoking)
  3. Even after playing well which resulted in the death of a check and a counter (Hydreigon and Klefki) and getting somewhat lucky on the death of a check (Rotom Wash), Weavile still couldn't finish the job
Honestly the big idea with Weavile is that it just has so many checks and counters. I get that it puts pressure on teams, but a whole lot of Pokemon can do that. UU has no shortage of threats, at least with Weavile you know what's coming in terms of its set and with such bad defenses, typing and hazard vulnerability it won't come in on any of your offensive Pokemon. Scizor alone is already on maybe 40% of teams and is a very solid Weavile check.

I think sometimes you just need to accept the idea that some offensive teams don't have a switch in for everything and if Weavile is one of those threats, well that's pretty normal for offense to sack Pokemon to get back momentum.
 
#29
Pokeisfun, you are leaving out an important factor. Many of the checks that you named are crippled by knock off (scizor, infernape, primarina, alomolala) or get hit fairly hard by knock off (mega blastoise and z water rotom-wash, which is usually offensive rather than defensive).
 
#30
Pokeisfun, you are leaving out an important factor. Many of the checks that you named are crippled by knock off (scizor, infernape, primarina, alomolala) or get hit fairly hard by knock off (mega blastoise and z water rotom-wash, which is usually offensive rather than defensive).
Yeah, they're crippled, but not to an extent that would make Weavile broken. And IDK why you're saying that Blastoise-Mega is taking all that much:
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blastoise-Mega: 129-153 (43 - 51%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO
Do your calc before making such statements please. Yeah it's not switching in but it can still tank a good hit and just strike back.
PIF is right. Weavile isn't really broken, and just because certain teams lack switch-ins doesn't mean we need to ban it. People are underselling how easy it is to put a check or counter on a team for it, because it's countered by types that would be good anyways even without it. Pursuit, as PIF stated, is prediction-reliant, and it's bad to be locked into on a choice mon. This thing honestly should not be banned for the reasons people are giving.
 

Euphonos

stains every heart that he uses to heal the pain
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
#31
Pokeisfun, you are leaving out an important factor. Many of the checks that you named are crippled by knock off (scizor, infernape, primarina, alomolala) or get hit fairly hard by knock off (mega blastoise and z water rotom-wash, which is usually offensive rather than defensive).
1. Scizor, while having some concerns taking Knock Off damage on offensive variants, has the capability to just Roost off the damage afterward.
2. Infernape is the most concerned mon among all of the checks as it's concerned having its most precious item (most likely Choice Scarf) knocked off, but Nasty Plot sets coupled with a Z-Crystal is a thing.
3. Defensive Primarina exists and worries less about its item knocked off.
4. Alomomola doesn't even care having its item knocked off; Weavile's efforts will just be wasted whenever Alomomola switches out.

Essentially, I am defending pokeisfun's arguments on Weavile; Weavile's Attack and Speed are its biggest assets along with its Ice Shard priority (along with its respective buffs such as preventing Prankster Pokemon to hit at it) and Weavile's extremely proficient at what it has doing all the time: exerting pressure to most teams. Whatever, Weavile's typing is a double-edged sword: very efficient offensively but leaves a lot to be desired defensively; there are numerous checks and counters to this Pokemon that could be worth using in any team without focusing too much on dealing with Weavile.
 
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p2

i put it all in the bin cause that's not me
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#33
Weavile's offensive prowess in the tier is simply too much for the tier to handle, it's ridiculously threatening between its STABs, coverage and access to Pursuit simply due to the amount of pressure it can apply to any kind of team, some people seem to be straight up ignoring the fact that Weavile has more than 1 item option than CB in the tier, because calling Scarf Hydra or Cobalion consistent checks is just blatantly wrong because Weav has its ways around them, which I don't even get for the former because Hydra literally cannot switch in at anyway and even then its taking at least 60% from Shard so like?? Cobalion also runs the risk of getting Low Kicked and if Weav does reveal it's not CB, you are immediately on the backfoot and you will struggle to retain any decent amount of momentum because now you're forced to scout options, while the Weavile user is completely free to do what they want because it's so damn difficult to play around, they can punish scouting, they can attack whats in front of them, the ball is in their park and you're not going to be getting it back anytime soon because if you're using Cobalion your likely alternative check is going to be a scarfer or some bulky Water like Pert that doesn't want to get knocked. - What I'm trying to say, essentially, is that the team support from Weavile simply sitting there and blasting holes through teams with extreme ease, opening up plenty of opportunities for teammates is too much for the tier and due to its high power, it makes it difficult to answer Weavile + teammates, despite Weavile itself being fairly easy to handle in a vacuum.

Stuff like Scizor isn't reliable either because it's forced to Roost when it comes in, if you do not Roost, you retain momentum BUT Sciz will not beat Weavile the next time it comes in, and in the meantime, a bulky Scizor forced into Roosting invites a ridiculous amount of threats in, it creates far too many opportunities for some powerhouses like CB Nape, Specs Prima or whatever other stupid good breakers people are using. Stuff like Klefki isn't too reliable either because its often used to check a HUGE amount of threats as it is, and throwing it in vs something like Weavile and then into a Latias / Alt / Aero / Gard means that it will not be lasting long and it will be easily outlasted by the threats its supposed to check because Weavile turns it into a decent check vs them, into a mediocre check that will fold to coverage or a couple of strong hits.

tl;dr - Weavile itself is not a overpowering threat but the ridiculous team support it simply provides through a powerful Knock Off + Pursuit, along with being absolutely insane in preventing players in creating momentum and being capable of sapping away momentum from offense teams with such extreme ease is not healthy, nor something that should be staying in the tier.
 
#34
p2

First, nobody said Hydreigon was a consistent check, you'll notice I never put it there when I listed the highly ranked
checks and counters. I said it was a check in the pak tesung game only because it fits the literal definition, as it revenge kills.

Second, Cobalion is pretty obviously a consistent check as it beats all the sets without Low Kick, forces the Weavile to lock itself in a bad move if Band, beatable life Orb one on one (which you can always double on for a reliable scout). Cobalion smashes the standard set and only sometimes dies to coverage. That sounds like a consistent check to me.

Thirdly you say Weavile can do whatever it wants when it comes in for free. This just isn't right, it requires predictions to use and can easily die. You make it sound so risk free and easy for the Weavile user, that they can just pick the advantage. But this is basically never the case, Weaviles bad bulk means it can't trade hits with most of the tier.

Lastly you go on and say Pokémon like Roost Scizor and Klefki are unreliable checks because of other threats. To me, you're just grasping at straws here. These are simply counters, reliable ones at that. If we can't say Klefki or Scizor is even a check to Weavile because other Pokémon exist, then all of this analysis and discussion loses a huge amount of meaning. You'll get ideas like Doublade can't counter Cobalion because Cobalion can just Volt Switch into a crazy strong wallbreaker like Specs Primarina and Band Infernape. Defensive Rotom Wash can't counter Gliscor because it's forced to Hydro Pump after a SD inviting in a Z Latias.

You're also overestimating how many times offense needs its Pokémon alive to counter Weavile, switch ins to all threats as I've tried to say before aren't even necessary for offense. So the fact you can still switch in multiple times to Weavile adds on to the idea that these are extremely solid counters.

I completely agree with you that we can't just look at things in a vacuum, Weavile does put in a lot of work for teammates, especially by trapping Latias. The thing is, Weavile has a whole lot of checks and counters, there are other offensive threats that are much harder to switch into, although they lack Speed and Pursuit.
 
#35
I didn't write a post regarding a suspect test for quite a long time... since I got reqs, I decided I will share my thoughts on Weavile.

Ever since the very beginning, Weavile has been treated like a top-tier threat, what it really is. I do agree with the ban of Weavile in beta; it was just too powerful for the tier.... however... now is a completely different time and the metagame became bulkier, more adapted to powerhouses like Weavile.

To my eyes, Weavile is not broken. The amount of support it provides is clearly really good, but it really is managable. Throughout the suspect test, I used Weavile and faced Weavile a lot of times; I used sets from the common LO Pursuit Weavile to even a weird SD Low Kick set, and I still wasn't convinced Weavile should go.

I am going to focus on the Pursuit Weavile because SD Low Kick is not a set... While Weavile put a good amount of work almost every game, my opponents, mainly the better ones, managed to play around it so it gets worn down by either continually doubling, setting up entry hazards during the beginning, and not sacrifising their Scizor for literally no reason.

For me, Weavile's poor defensive typing is what holds it back from being, what many think it is right now, broken. Its typing and frailty leave it susceptible to every priority user in UU, leave it worn down really quickly by entry hazards, and the fact that it usually holds Life Orb doesn't help its longevity either.

As mentioned above, many things do counter it... While every Pokémon who counter it don't appreciate having their item Knocked Off, they still are able to at least check it really hardly every time they come in.

Hate Weavile no more.
 
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#36
Just saying, but the pro ban and anti ban arguments are pretty much the same. "Weavile is broken, have to run alo/bulky scizor to check it." "Weavile isn't broken, you can run alo/bulky scizor to check it."
I think how offensive the current meta is why both sides have the same argument, due to how effective VoltTurn and wallbreakers are right now Weaviles usual fat answers are a lot less appealing to use, but still viable. Scizor for example likes to go offensive to reliably KO big threats like Mega Gardevoir and Mega Altaria, something the bulky set struggles with. Meanwhile LO Scizor can either U-turn out against fat things or just straight up smash through them with a bit of luck or the right set.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 348-411 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Arceus save you if Scald fails to burn or it's carrying a Lum Berry.
This kinda stuff is what makes Weavile so threatening and why I would rather see something else being tested instead, it has amazing tools for dealing with offensive teams in a meta filled with things like Mega-Gardevoir, other wallbreakers, and VoltTurn teams that put tons of pressure on defensive mons, making them less appealing to use. Not saying defense isn't viable, but the drops made it harder for walls and other bulky things to do their job and Weavile loves that.
 
#37
For me, Weavile's poor defensive typing is what holds it back from being, what many think it is right now, broken. Its typing and frailty leave it susceptible to every priority user in UU, leave it worn down really quickly by entry hazards, and the fact that it usually holds Life Orb doesn't help its longevity either.

Exactly.

No one's disputing how good weavile is in a vacuum, P2's post in particular lists great, practically objective reasons for how good the mon is offensively. However, imo what makes weavile non ban-worthy is how difficult it can be to actually bring the mon in outside of doubling/aggressive plays, and just how detrimental its frailty really is. Having an SR weakness, coupling that with orb recoil, and then having generally poor defenses makes it incredibly difficult to switch into even resisted moves. In most, if not all cases, Weavile's ability as a trapper or to create offensive pressure revolves around one's ability to make doubles or play aggressively, rather than weavile being inherently broken as a trapper/offensive mon. I used weavile/spikes offense for reqs, and while weavile was incredible when paired with other offensive mons, I never found it nearly as game breaking, thoughtlessly spammable, or centralizing as gallade, xurk, buzz, or m-hera.
 
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DrReuniclus

Smogon's full of bullies.
is a Tiering Contributor
#38
I come here only to post that this is probably the least fun meta I have played in a long time in uu. Volt-turn has always been and still is my least favorite playstyle to both play against and play with and, with it being to most commonly spammed thing on the ladder, I've gotten multiple post traumatic flashbacks to facing some last gen teams with beedrill volt-turn that have made me shed tears. I don't really care what you suspect next because this tier is starting to look like threats on top of threats like oras uu to me and there is a lot that could potentially use some removal, but do something to make this tier not horrible and move away from every team being the same volt-turn cores over and over. I know I'm not the only one who thinks this way and at least 3 people who were playing uu in snake think this tier is dong and many people on multiple discords including those in other lower tiers looking in think the community is dong, so fix that still too. This suspect brought up both of these previously mentioned problems during my time laddering.

As for Weavile, I already made ban posts like 3 months ago, here and here, when it was originally suspected, where I discussed how "I'd rather just snip a problem in the bud than go back and look at it later when it has become a full problem..." and now its apparently a problem depending on the way you see it. This thread is just going to be people talking in circles based on their preferred playstyle of more bulky offense / offense players saying they don't want to have to be forced to run klefki on every team to have a switch in, while players using fatter teams will say you can have switch ins like alo and w/e else was posted. You really aren't going to change any minds with any of these posts and people are going to vote how they vote regardless. Its like the xurkitree suspect when people who play with more offensive oriented teams tended to vote towards no ban, while more defensive oriented players went more pro ban. I still plan on voting ban on Weavile as this tier needs some breathing room one way or another on the various new drops. The one thing I think makes weavile more problematic than even before the last drops is the addition of these new volt switch users in mega manectric and rotom-wash as they make one of weavile's biggest problems of coming in vs something a lot easier by keeping momentum and it helps that their typing and stats compliment weavile a lot. Really though, I think banning weavile is just one step of a lot that this tier needs to take to fix its problems and, if worse comes to worse and nothing gets done, then we always have ULTRA sun and ULTRA moon coming soon anyways.
 
#39
upload_2017-10-3_23-56-11.png


I wanted to wait until I actually made reqs in a suspect ladder without choking or getting haxxed out in the final series of games before posting my thoughts, but I figure now that I got it I’d throw in my thoughts/experience Gray Fullbuster here. Keep in mind I'm going to moreso try to elaborate on my own observations, earlier posts mention the core arguments for each side.

The main thing I feel about Weavile in regards to the ban argument is that in the context of the current metagame he’s a very “Anti-Meta” pokemon. If you look at the UU viability ranking list you’ll see that Weavile’s dual STAB combination gives him neutral or super effective coverage across just about everything in the A+ to A- ranking. Furthermore, a few of the exceptions (particularly Cobalion and Primarina) can be hit by its coverage moves of low kick and posion jab, respectively. On paper, this should clearly mean that Weavile has an overcentralizing advantage over the tier, since it can neutralize most of the top UU threats. However, I find this isn’t necessarily the case in practice.

I used Weavile in a couple of my Bulky Offense and VoltTurn team builds, and I generally noticed that other teams that used Weavile mostly fell into these two categories as well. Breaking these two builds down one at a time, on BO Weavile’s main role is knock off spam across the game and ultimately clean sweep a weakened team late game. While extremely effective at the latter purpose if the enemy team has been sufficiently weakened, the problem I found using Weavile is that unless your bringing him in after a sack, utilizing Weavile on BO entails a major prediction game between you and your opponent, and with its defenses and typing this means that you must predict perfectly or risk losing it altogether. I sadly forgot to save the replays, but these are two scenarios that occurred in two different games where I faced Weavile on the enemy team.
Scenario 1) Weavile comes in after a sack against my scarf Hydreigon. I predict the icicle crash and switch to Z-coba, he predicts this switch and goes for Low Kick. I lose Cobalion, revenge kill Weavile, but ultimately lose the match because late game Z-Coba sweep was my wincon against his team
Scenario 2) I bring in scarf hydreigon against starmie. My opponent switches into Weavile predicting my Dark Pulse, since Weavile can apply a lot of pressure to my team. However, I note his aggressive switches from before and decide to make a risky prediction and go for fire blast. Weavile goes down and my opponent ultimately loses because late game Weavile sweep was his wincon against my team
Bonus Scenario 3) SKIP TO TURN 46 IF YOU DON'T FEEL LIKE WATCHING RIVETING STALL VS. STALL CONTENT. Weavile comes in on my doublade, since my opponent correctly predicts me to go for toxic like I would against his Quag or Alo. He predicts me to switch out and goes for pursuit, but I predict this since he's pursuited my Blissey twice (that and I calc'd I'd live a Banded Knock Off at that health) and go for iron head. Weavile dies and at that point the game is over because Banded Weavile was the only thing that could potentially break my core. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-640490632

VoltTurn, on the other hand, is where Weavile’s strengths shine the most. Being able to bring in Weavile on a switch without risking poor prediction to punish the enemy team with STAB, setup, or coverage attacks can make Weavile absolutely deadly in this setup. However, Weavile also serves as a major weakness against enemy VoltTurn teams thanks to four common members of popular VoltTurn cores that can check it (ranked from worst to best):

4) M-Beedrill: While a weak check that can only be brought in after a sack and can only work if Stealth Rocks are off, M-Bee can survive an Ice Shard from full and threaten the enemy team with the most powerful U-Turn in the game
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Beedrill-Mega: 186-220 (68.6 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

3) Infernape: While it doesn’t appreciate coming into a Knock off and losing its item, the combination of Weavile being weak to its dual STAB along with potential U-turn, setup, and coverage options from the infernape means that the opponent is put in a major momentum disadvantage.
2) M-Manectric: With intimidate, a higher speed tier, and access to flamethrower/overheat, the Weavile users only options are to either switch and lose more momentum or ice shard for minor chip and die
1) Scizor: Previous posts have already gone into detail about how Scizor functions as a check/potential counter depending on setup, and its ubiquity in the tier since the UU Beta is well known at this point.

As a final point, Weavile’s susceptibility to all forms of entry hazards (especially stealth rocks and spikes from Klefki), hasn’t been brought up yet for the anti-ban argument. Granted, there are plenty of hazard removal options (the aforementioned starmie can make a decently good pairing), but any player worth his salt will take efforts to reset, spinblock, or taunt defoggers in an attempt to keep hazards up permanently, ESPECIALLY if they see Weavile on the enemy team preview.

TL;DR: Weavile is a top-tier offensive threat that effectively pressures other major threats in the metagame and can be absolutely brutal when used on VoltTurn teams. However, the plethora of solid checks and a few potential counters in the tier, requirement of good prediction and/or use as a revenge killer on BO, ironic susceptibility to enemy VoltTurn cores, and weakness to entry hazards means that there are plenty of counterplay options against Weavile. Unless I encounter something that drastically changes my mind over the course of the next week, I’m leaning towards NO BAN in this upcoming suspect.
 
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#40
People exaggerate how hard weavile is to come in on. Bulkier builds usually have no problem switching in on it as there are way more mons than people make it out to be that can come in safely. Swampert and restalk cune both easily take even band knocks and force weavile out. Also weaviles survivability isn't the best as it takes LO recoil if its LO and has to keep coming in on rocks+its very frail and usually most hits even weak neutral ones take around half of its health or more. Offensive builds run klefki commonly and they also have stuff like scarf ape or scizor to help check it. And yeah weavile could knock off scarf or kill non bulky scizor w 2 knocks but weavile has a very hard time coming in vs HO or volturn. And bulkier builds don't have problems fitting in checks for it. I don't see it as banworthy atm.
 
#42
I just want to remind people that there's a dangerous pitfall with this stuff. Things don't have to be broken to be unhealthy. It's happened before and it'll happen again, but don't think not broken means it's healthy.
Please explain this further. I'm interested in seeing the precedent of what you're saying
 
#43
Please explain this further. I'm interested in seeing the precedent of what you're saying
Well, the best example I can think of was Shadow Tag in last gen ou. I'm iffy on it being broken, because the tier had and has plenty of stuff to absolutely shut down stall, played right. But it limited things a lot and was a pretty cancerous thing in the first place, so even if it wasn't broken it was way unhealthy to play with, and was banned regardless.

And before it comes down to "it made stall matchups broken" it was either that Goth psychic or Wobuffet. Both are handled fairly well.

Or why not think about Staraptor for a second. The way things are in UU right now, it wouldn't be broken, but it would probably constrain playstyles a fair bit. The list goes on.
 
#44
Another example would be the recent Sharpedo ban in RU, there were no claims that it broke the tier entirely, but it constrained teambuilding. Suddenly offense had to constantly run the same bulkier mons and change the pace that their team played at to avoid being easily run over.

It's different of course because Weavile doesn't occupy the same exact role as Sharpedo, but it serves as an example of something being banned for being unhealthy rather than broken.
 
#46
Except fitting weavile checks on your team isn't even hard and HO/volturn typically doesn't need them due to weavile having a hard time coming in period.
I said myself that it's different because they don't occupy the same role. It's an example of a mon being banned because it's unhealthy rather than broken as a user above asked for. I made no attempt to level them as the same situation.
 
#47
Hi guys, Bob here with my brief thoughts about Weavile.

Having the second best move in the game backed by STAB as well as being arguably one of the best offensive typing (ice) in UU at the moment, Weavile sounds amazing on paper. In practice, it's still good, but not as infallible and ban-worthy as many people make it out to be.

There are just way too many things in the tier that resist both its STABS (I won't bother naming any since the common ones have all pretty much been pointed out already) that fit well into any team. You don't even necessarily need mons that resist its dual stabs to stop it. Its main ice STABs are either on the weak side or somewhat unreliable, Knock off drops to a measly 65 BP once the item is lost, which makes it not very spammable.

Weavile certainly does have a powerful presence in the tier; it's strong and fast, though it's not overbearing on any particular playstyle whatsoever. On its own, Weavile barely scratches stall teams given bulky waters and steels are pretty much a staple. For offensive teams, switch-ins for Weavile, especially the banded set, is a little harder to come by, but they still exist. But then again, I don't believe you really need switch-ins for everything when you're building offense anyways; you're more focused on dishing out damage, not taking it. Weavile has almost non-existent defenses due to its lackluster bulk and its ice typing, meaning that most strong priority users can take it out after around of rocks. Honestly, on offense builds, most scarfers and pretty much anything that can take a hit can take Weavile out in return.

I think the biggest impact Weavile has on the tier is its ability to reliably KO or significantly weaken (mega) Latias, one of the most common mons on offensive and bulky teams alike. But even then you'd have to risk predicting between the switch or not. Compared to Krookodile, the other prominent Pursuit trapper in the tier, Weavile traps a whole different array of things because of its ice typing and different stat distributions. Examples of this include: Sceptile, Celebi, Pidgeot, Starmie etc. This brings an additional level of complexity to team building and predictions, regardless of whether this is relevant or not in the context of Weavile's broken-ness, I think it makes the tier a bit more fun to play in.

All in all, Weavile is good but not broken and I'll be voting for it to be unbanned (assuming I remember to vote this time around).
 
#48
Well, the best example I can think of was Shadow Tag in last gen ou. I'm iffy on it being broken, because the tier had and has plenty of stuff to absolutely shut down stall, played right. But it limited things a lot and was a pretty cancerous thing in the first place, so even if it wasn't broken it was way unhealthy to play with, and was banned regardless.

And before it comes down to "it made stall matchups broken" it was either that Goth psychic or Wobuffet. Both are handled fairly well.

Or why not think about Staraptor for a second. The way things are in UU right now, it wouldn't be broken, but it would probably constrain playstyles a fair bit. The list goes on.
But those mons are clearly and objectively broken- Shadow Tag's been banned for ages, arguably since BW in different formats, and Staraptor 2HKOs the meta. Weavile's a whole other ballgame.
 
#49
Im not well-versed in other metas, but the case would be different anyways, yes. I mean, Staraptor would probably fit in in Uu, but would be unhealthy regardless. Thats beside the point, though. I'm just here to remind people that Weavile doesn't need to be outright broken to be an unhealthy influence.

I could probably walk through all the bans and eventually find an example, but I just don't care enough.
 
#50
Finnaly got reqs. Time to give my opinion on Weavile.

Firstable, it's obvious that Weavile is right now, one of the best Pokemon in the Underused. It's amazing combinaison of great Attack, Speed + offensive typing allows it to Revenge Kill and to Trap a lot of Pokemon in the tier. However, is typing is defensively pure trash, like is defenses which makes it more difficult to use that on the paper. If you're want your Weavile to be very effective, you must play in an agressive way which induce you to take risk and potentielly lost your Weavile on a single mistake like BrothaJdogg says. It's clearly for this reason that I do not think Weavile is ban worthy.

By speaking of UU, I would like to talk about one Pokemon that I've played and which is fire : Offensive CM Latias-Mega.


Latias-Mega @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Dragon Pulse / Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Hidden Power [Fire] / Thunderbolt / Ice Beam / Surf / Roost

This Pokemon is kinda amazing as a Late-Game Sweeper / Mid-Game Sweeper. With only 1 CM, it's able to break through so much stuff while having a pretty nice bulk.

252 SpA Latias-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 136 SpD Scizor: 288-340 (83.9 - 99.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Latias-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cobalion: 272-320 (84.2 - 99%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
+1 252 SpA Latias-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 164-194 (51.5 - 61%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Latias-Mega Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 320-378 (98.4 - 116.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Latias-Mega Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 236-278 (78.1 - 92%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Latias-Mega Dragon Pulse vs. 244 HP / 116 SpD Gliscor: 241-285 (68.4 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+1 252 SpA Latias-Mega Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 295-348 (89.1 - 105.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Latias-Mega Dragon Pulse vs. 40 HP / 216 SpD Alomomola: 288-340 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Latias-Mega Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 375-442 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
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