np: SM UU Stage 4.1 - Shine [Weavile & Gardevoir-Mega banned]

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#76
Weavile. I've been waiting for this guy to leave since the xurkitree meta. I've always struggled to cover him in my 3 wall cores. The way he stands in the shadows of psychic and ghost pokemon in this tier is absolutely ridiculous. His pursuit ohkoes offensive starmie from more or less full health, even without starmie switching out. Furthermore, Weavile's speed tier is absolutely ridiculous. He's the fastest Ice type in the game. Including megas. He outspeeds so much of the tier, and can pick off many faster pokemon with ice shard (Aerodactyl M,Sceptile,Crobat,Scarf Krook etc.). Maybe once the meta has settled down we can re suspect this beast, but for now, Weavile needs to take a vacation.

Rotom-Wash @ Waterium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt/Thunder wave/Will-o-wisp
- Toxic/Thunder Wave/Will-o-wisp

Most people scoff at rotom. They say, "wow, Rotom, all I need is a grass type ". This may be true in a way, but what is Rotom's main purpose? To generate momentum. Meaning as your passive amoongus comes in, the opponent can send in whatever they want. Infernape with swords dance or nasty plot? Mamoswine to set up rocks? SD Gliscor, or the rare Double Dance Gliscor?Latias? The list goes on. The point is, even with your supposed counter, you havent stopped this guy from doing his real job. Generating momentum. This is where rotom shines. Although it is true that pokemon with u turn can do similar things, the fact that rotoms counters are very specific (passive special walls,Blisssey,Sylveon etc, or Grass types) means that dangerous pokemon such as offensive sd scizor, the above mentioned pokemon, and basically anything else, will get a free turn. If you want to stop this momentum, you have only 3 pokemon to choose from. Basically 2, since 2 of them are so similiar. First you have Gastrodon and Seismitoad. Differences? Gastrdon has healing, Seismitoad lacks it but has stealth rocks and knock off. Then you have Lanturn, who gets worn down easily, nobody uses it, and is just included because its a possible cuunter. Another point to consider is this. Gastrodon and Seismitoad can't hurt Rotom other than toxic. Rotom can also poison them with its own toxic. Also, rotom could easily, easily carry hp grass,Shutting down these 2 mometum stoppers, everybody bar Lanturn, who nobody uses. Now do you see the problem with rotom? To make matters worse, Rotom has levitate, meaning it can take pretty long to wear down if the opponent plays smart, especially in this spikes infested metagame. Finally the waterium Z. This waterium Z obliterates any obscure counters,(Volt Absorb Jolteon etc) and lets rotom tank knock offs quite comfortably. it can also blow away some bulky special walls after enough prior damage. After Latias M, and Gardevoir M, this guy should be the first to go. Seriously.
I think that just because you cannot think more than 3 pokemons that doesnt necessarily mean that the mon is broken.

252 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 72+ SpD Amoonguss: 78-92 (18 - 21.2%) -- possible 7HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Rotom-Wash Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 72+ SpD Amoonguss: 50-59 (11.5 - 13.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 SpA Rotom-Wash Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 72+ SpD Amoonguss: 63-75 (14.5 - 17.3%) -- possible 9HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 72+ SpD Amoonguss: 131-154 (30.3 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery

0 SpA Amoonguss Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 134-158 (55.6 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 201-237 (28.1 - 33.1%) -- 89.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 120-142 (16.8 - 19.8%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Rotom-Wash Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 76-91 (10.6 - 12.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 SpA Rotom-Wash Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 99-117 (13.8 - 16.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 0 HP Rotom-Wash: 100-100 (41.4 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


252 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 148 SpD Celebi: 67-79 (16.5 - 19.5%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Rotom-Wash Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 148 SpD Celebi: 42-51 (10.3 - 12.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 SpA Rotom-Wash Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 148 SpD Celebi: 54-65 (13.3 - 16%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 148 SpD Celebi: 112-132 (27.7 - 32.6%) -- 77.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 152-182 (63 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 141-167 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Wash Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 54-63 (16.6 - 19.3%) -- possible 6HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Wash Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 69-81 (21.2 - 24.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 84-99 (25.8 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 180-213 (74.6 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 292-345 (121.1 - 143.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO


252 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 62-73 (20.5 - 24.1%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Wash Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 39-47 (12.9 - 15.5%) -- possible 7HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Wash Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 51-60 (16.8 - 19.8%) -- guaranteed 6HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 104-123 (34.4 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 178-211 (73.8 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 267-315 (110.7 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO


252 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 174-205 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 103-123 (24.8 - 29.7%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Wash Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 84-100 (20.2 - 24.1%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Wash Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 67-79 (16.1 - 19%) -- possible 6HKO

252+ Atk Muk-Alola Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Wash: 118-139 (48.9 - 57.6%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO


252 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Sceptile-Mega: 49-58 (17.4 - 20.6%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Sceptile-Mega: 82-97 (29.1 - 34.5%) -- 7.3% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sylveon: 207-244 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sylveon: 124-147 (31.4 - 37.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Rotom-Wash Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sylveon: 102-120 (25.8 - 30.4%) -- 1.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Rotom-Wash Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sylveon: 79-94 (20 - 23.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Not that reliable but still can switch in safely on z hydro and wishstall.)

0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 118-141 (48.9 - 58.5%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
 
#77
I expected these exact reactions. A pokemon doesn't have to be broken to be unhealthy for the meta. While not broken, the ease at which it abuses its switchins is alarming. Those calcs you put up are misrepresenting information. For example, Rotm uses volt switch on Amoonguss. Rotom uses every bit of its offensive prowess no to break walls, bu to break pokemon that stop volt switching. While Manectric and Raikou can be handled by hippowdon or another solid ground type, Rotom can't. Amoonguss is just a momentum generator for Rotom. Rotom loves to see Amoonguss switch in, as it can switch in whatver the heck it wants. Weaviel is banned. In comes Latias, who has recently surged in usage. It clicks a free calm mind as you switch into something.
+1 252 SpA Latias Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 293-345 (81.3 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
+1 252 SpA Latias Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 196 HP / 96 SpD Klefki: 271-319 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Or maybe its infernape.
+2 252 Atk Infernape Gigavolt Havoc (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Suicune: 356-420 (88.1 - 103.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Hippowdon: 614-723 (146.1 - 172.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 671-790 (93.9 - 110.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
The list goes on, as I mentioned earlier
+1 252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Stone Edge vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 210-247 (43.6 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Hippowdon: 290-342 (69 - 81.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 213-252 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 357-420 (74.2 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Also for Perishing Song, I didn't right much about Weavile since I felt the people before me had done a sufficent job. I would just be reiterating the same points. My campain is the ban rotom one, not because it is broken, but because it is unhealthy for the meta. Rotom isn't a wallbreaker. It's a tool. And it's too good at what it does. This is the golden reason of why pokemon get banned at all. Because they are too good at what they do. Too good at walling the meta? Gets banned. Too good at sweeping? Gets banned. Too good at wallbreaking? Gets banned. Why shouldn't the same be the case with rotom?
 
#78
Also for Perishing Song, I didn't right much about Weavile since I felt the people before me had done a sufficent job. I would just be reiterating the same points. My campain is the ban rotom one, not because it is broken, but because it is unhealthy for the meta. Rotom isn't a wallbreaker. It's a tool. And it's too good at what it does. This is the golden reason of why pokemon get banned at all. Because they are too good at what they do. Too good at walling the meta? Gets banned. Too good at sweeping? Gets banned. Too good at wallbreaking? Gets banned. Why shouldn't the same be the case with rotom?
There's a difference between being an overall great glue mon and being not broken, but unhealthy. Rotom-W in UU is looking a lot like Lando-T in OU; neither are broken, but both are great mons that really don't cause any negatives for being put on a team.
 
#79
I expected these exact reactions. A pokemon doesn't have to be broken to be unhealthy for the meta. While not broken, the ease at which it abuses its switchins is alarming. Those calcs you put up are misrepresenting information. For example, Rotm uses volt switch on Amoonguss. Rotom uses every bit of its offensive prowess no to break walls, bu to break pokemon that stop volt switching. While Manectric and Raikou can be handled by hippowdon or another solid ground type, Rotom can't. Amoonguss is just a momentum generator for Rotom. Rotom loves to see Amoonguss switch in, as it can switch in whatver the heck it wants. Weaviel is banned. In comes Latias, who has recently surged in usage. It clicks a free calm mind as you switch into something.
+1 252 SpA Latias Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 293-345 (81.3 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
+1 252 SpA Latias Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 196 HP / 96 SpD Klefki: 271-319 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Or maybe its infernape.
+2 252 Atk Infernape Gigavolt Havoc (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Suicune: 356-420 (88.1 - 103.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Hippowdon: 614-723 (146.1 - 172.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 671-790 (93.9 - 110.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
The list goes on, as I mentioned earlier
+1 252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Stone Edge vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 210-247 (43.6 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Hippowdon: 290-342 (69 - 81.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 213-252 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 357-420 (74.2 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Also for Perishing Song, I didn't right much about Weavile since I felt the people before me had done a sufficent job. I would just be reiterating the same points. My campain is the ban rotom one, not because it is broken, but because it is unhealthy for the meta. Rotom isn't a wallbreaker. It's a tool. And it's too good at what it does. This is the golden reason of why pokemon get banned at all. Because they are too good at what they do. Too good at walling the meta? Gets banned. Too good at sweeping? Gets banned. Too good at wallbreaking? Gets banned. Why shouldn't the same be the case with rotom?
your only point might be stronger if it didn't also apply to literally anything that gets u turn
 
#80
I expected these exact reactions. A pokemon doesn't have to be broken to be unhealthy for the meta. While not broken, the ease at which it abuses its switchins is alarming. Those calcs you put up are misrepresenting information. For example, Rotm uses volt switch on Amoonguss. Rotom uses every bit of its offensive prowess no to break walls, bu to break pokemon that stop volt switching. While Manectric and Raikou can be handled by hippowdon or another solid ground type, Rotom can't. Amoonguss is just a momentum generator for Rotom. Rotom loves to see Amoonguss switch in, as it can switch in whatver the heck it wants. Weaviel is banned. In comes Latias, who has recently surged in usage. It clicks a free calm mind as you switch into something.
+1 252 SpA Latias Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 293-345 (81.3 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
+1 252 SpA Latias Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 196 HP / 96 SpD Klefki: 271-319 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Or maybe its infernape.
+2 252 Atk Infernape Gigavolt Havoc (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Suicune: 356-420 (88.1 - 103.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Hippowdon: 614-723 (146.1 - 172.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 671-790 (93.9 - 110.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
The list goes on, as I mentioned earlier
+1 252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Stone Edge vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 210-247 (43.6 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Hippowdon: 290-342 (69 - 81.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 213-252 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 357-420 (74.2 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Also for Perishing Song, I didn't right much about Weavile since I felt the people before me had done a sufficent job. I would just be reiterating the same points. My campain is the ban rotom one, not because it is broken, but because it is unhealthy for the meta. Rotom isn't a wallbreaker. It's a tool. And it's too good at what it does. This is the golden reason of why pokemon get banned at all. Because they are too good at what they do. Too good at walling the meta? Gets banned. Too good at sweeping? Gets banned. Too good at wallbreaking? Gets banned. Why shouldn't the same be the case with rotom?
How was any of this different when Rotom-C and Rotom-H were the only usable forms in the tier?
 
#81
Gonna be honest and say this ban rotom stuff just sounds silly, Rotom-W is essentially the guy with the guitar playing "Wonderwall" at a party. Its good at what it does yes, it's a pivot with solid typing, but honestly that's pretty much it. The Landorus-T comparison was a little silly as well, as Rotom-W doesn't have anywhere near the ability in UU as LT has in OU, Rotom can't sweep or set rocks or fill in any other role aside from pivot.

It has mediocre defensive ability as well, sure it has good typing at all but it's bulk is pretty eh, you can switch in to things once or twice but get worn down very quickly especially if rocks are up. You can run defensive sets, but then you lose any real speed or power and have to sacrifice Waterium-Z which is a huge loss to its offensive ability. Defensive Rotom is already a serious drop off though as it has no reliable recovery outside of Rest and leftovers since Pain Split is a bit of a toss up. Idk this Rotom talk is kind of silly and gives a very good mon way too much credit, I'd prefer talking about Scizor before Rotom since its warped the meta around it much harder and even then I wouldn't be entirely sold on a Scizor suspect test. Can we just move on?
 
#83
Right, thank god this thing is gone. Granted, MLati and MGarde just lost one more check, but they'll probably be banned down the line anyways. So the question is.

How good is MScept about to get or what?
 

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#84
Sorry for the double-post but with a 76% majority, Weavile is now banned from UnderUsed! Thanks to everyone who participated in this vote and the discussion here, in the PS! room and UU discord. The Immortal and Eyan, please remove Weavile from the ladder.

After much discussion with the council, we have decided that before we move onto our next public suspect, the council will hold a council vote on Gardevoir-Mega to determine whether or not it should remain in this tier. With exceptional offensive firepower and above-average Special bulk and Speed, Gardevoir-Mega has been a top threat since the moment it was released, and has only gotten better following the most recent bans. We'll post more information on this vote in the near future.

I'll leave this thread open for discussion on Gardevoir-Mega and the post-Weavile meta in the meantime.

 
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#85
This.
We all knew this was coming. We all knew it was broken. And we're all glad to see it about to go.
Seriously though, this mon is absolutely ridiculous. It has no switch-ins, yes, but that's not it. It also has:

-Actual speed. This helps it so much. Unlike Primarina, it can actually outspeed many offensive mons, which means that offense has a pretty damn tough time against it too.

-The stall matchup. It has a much better one than Primarina. Taunt lets it shut down walls, and oh? You thought Blissey was safe?

252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 283-334 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 2 layers of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery

Spikestack is super common rn and with a bit of chip and SR, Blissey's going down. It's even worse when you factor in Taunt. Psyshock lets it circumvent most special walls, and HP Fire is enough to hit the steels of this meta:

252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix-Mega: 118-140 (33.3 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes

With enough chip, Steelix-Mega goes down too.

Nothing slower is safe at all. And with Spikestack as common as it is rn, it's truly nuts. Yes, VoltTurn is a bad match-up for it, but Gardevoir-Mega can still put in huge work against it if it can get a free switch-in.

With this gone, my enthusiasm for UU shall be renewed again, perhaps even to the point of trying to get reqs for the next vote. Glad to see this huge issue dealt with!
latias-mega next pls
 
#86
Ban. Please. There is so little reason outside of the prevalence of Scizor to actually warrant keeping M-Garde. Nothing bar SpDef Keys is capable of switching in more than once on its coverage, and its Speed + bulk are both more than enough to make killing it at times a hassle.
 
#87
Ban, I wanted this to go before weavile but I'm happy it's getting suspected. I really want to echo what MewBby said, nothing apart from Klefki, Bulky Scizor and a few fringe mons switch in more than once of mons that fit on offence, and that latter statement is important too because jfc I've had issues building teams since this thing dropped into the tier. It puts so much pressure on team building if you're building offence because you're forced to carry keys or lose a mon every time it comes in, and thanks to volt turn being so popular it comes in really easily. The fun thing about it as well is that thanks the speed tiers in UU it can just run modest because everything not Haxorus in that speed tier usually caries a scarf anyway or can't OHKO you back. This probably comes off as an early morning ramble and I'll edit this to make it more coherent but in short, it puts too much restriction on team building, it hits too hard, the special bulk is too much (I didn't even mention CM), pls ban so I can build balance and offence without having to run klefki and scizor, thx.
 
#89
About time we got down to getting rid of this monster. Seriously, don’t even hesitate to not ban this thing. It’s firepower, good special bulk and typing and even its ability to cripple some of its checks and counters shouldn’t have even been brought into the UU tier in first place. But alas, once this monster is gone now we have to get rid of M-Latias as well.
 
#90
Quick ban. Honestly this thing doesnt even need a suspect test. The sheer power of garde is immense. Couple that with tremendous SpD bulk and 100 base speed(which is amazing for a breaker of this magnitude) and it is way too much for UU. No one has even touched on the ridiculous amount of utility moves it gets. It gets wisp to cripple common switchins aka sciz mlix doublade etc. It also gets CM taunt encore to break stall (which it already does with its power) sub and wish just to name a few. All of these combined together make mgarde INSANELY hard to stop, and now with one of its better offensive checks gone in weavile, it has no place in this tier. QUICK BAN
 
#91
Yeah I want to BAN Mega Garde:

B- Bitch get this out of the tier
A- Allowing this was a mistake
N- No breaker has the qualities to make Mega Garde hilariously broken

Seriously, this thing was unhealthy from the start lol. Mega Garde rips the tier literally in half, being able to overcome all of its weaknesses very easily bar Steels to an extent (can't OHKO Mega Aggron, Scizor beats even HP Fire variants almost 100% of the time unless mindgames). It can switch in to pretty much every special attacker to the tier bar Poisons like Nihilego (but Psychic type invalidates those matchups), and 1v1 basically all of them after switching in, again bar a very select few. Aside from pretty much smashing the tier with its STABs, with Hyper Voice in particular having few switch ins on a lot of teams, it has a lot of assets that really push it over the top utility-wise, like wisp and stuff, explodingdaisies covered it super well in his post. Long story short, sheer power, access to great utility moves, and the ability to break the tier in half really cement M-Garde as an unhealthy force for this tier.

On Weavile, yes, this was definitely broken. It's power and speed combined with the stupidly spammable Knock Off, among other things, made it way too much for the tier to handle. But this thing leaving will definitely shake up the tier (same with MGarde in the near future, we all know it). Mega Latias just lost another check, but that thing is also stupidly broken (albeit in a much different way) so hopefully that gets suspected soon. Psychic types in general got a pretty big buff, as the main Pursuit trapper is gone, and Krook and AloMuk are facing the wrath of several meta trends right now. VoltTurn's also hurt a little, as they lost a really solid centerpiece to kill threats like Mega Lati and other Dragons, notably Mega Sceptile, which also gets better as now Ice Shard can't threaten any set out, and with the rise of VoltTurn it's just getting better as a whole. There's a whole myriad of other trends, but Weavile leaving is a positive step for the metagame, and MGarde when if that gets banned will imo also be a positive step in the right direction.
 
#92
About time we got down to getting rid of this monster. Seriously, don’t even hesitate to not ban this thing. It’s firepower, good special bulk and typing and even its ability to cripple some of its checks and counters shouldn’t have even been brought into the UU tier in first place. But alas, once this monster is gone now we have to get rid of M-Latias as well.
Ugh, UU is falling apart. It's just suspect after suspect. It's the least fun tier to play imo. It needs to have gardevoir banned to help repair the metagame. It's a step in the right direction, but the
Meta feels like it's fucked beyond repair. If we don't do something UU will become as cancerous and boring as OU
 
#93
Ugh, UU is falling apart. It's just suspect after suspect. It's the least fun tier to play imo. It needs to have gardevoir banned to help repair the metagame. It's a step in the right direction, but the
Meta feels like it's fucked beyond repair. If we don't do something UU will become as cancerous and boring as OU
It's an unfortunate fall-out of the massive tier shift that happened a couple months back. We got so many powerful drops at the same time, that looking at everything at once would be near impossible (unless you think simultaneously suspect testing M-Gallade, M-Hera, Hoopa-U, M-Garde, Weavile, and M-Latias, possibly alongside previous notable threats in the tier such as M-Shark and Scizor is a good idea). I doubt we'll have a stable meta for months to come.

That said, while I stand by what I said during the suspect test, I'm nonetheless interested to see how the meta may develop without Weavile. As long as I have The Mascot Fluffy to play with I'll be fine

Also, yeah, Swan Queen gotta go. I was frankly surprised Weavile got looked at before Mega Waifu, since it can literally become anything it wants to depending on team support and move loadout.
1) On its own, The Hyper Voice + Psyshock STAB combo can hit most of the metagame for neutral or super-effective coverage
1a) This combo also allows it to naturally wallbreak against both physical and special walls. Someone above already ran the Blissey Calc, and Alo and Quag naturally get 2HKO'd by HV. Even Klefki doesn't appreciate the switch-in Chip
252+ SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 196 HP / 96 SpD Klefki: 117-138 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
2) With Webs support, it can outspeed the entire tier barring scarf hydreigon and scarf infernape, and scarf cobalion, and can function very well as a late game sweeper
3) Even without webs, its naturally high speed can let it function as a late game CM sweeper in a pinch
4) While its physical defense and HP are bad, its special defense is nothing to scoff at and its typing can provide a brutal advantage in the right siutations (e.g. coming in as a revenge kill against a choice-locked opponent)

Essentially, all this combined means your counterplay options are:
1) Use scizor, and pray they don't have WoW and/or predict your switch-in (Lol)
2) Sack something, attempt to revenge kill with physical attacker (like your opponent is going to let this happen that easily)
3) Use Klefki, attempt to status cripple it (if your opponent lets you do this, your team is most likely already dead/all set to fall over to another mon in the back)

RIP Swan Queen

 

Manipulative

At least I... wasn't boring, right?
is a Community Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
#94
Yeah, this has to go. MGard is a huge strain any remotely bulky archetype while being far from deadweight against offense due to its respectable speed tier, great bulk on the special side, and typing which allows it to switch into things such as Latias. Its stabs alone are enough to threaten the whole tier bar steels, none of which are safe to switch in between focus blast and hp fire. Not to mention that many of its supposed switch ins can be immediately crippled by Will-O-Wisp. Alternatively, Taunt or CM allow Gard to practically shut down defensive team archetypes on its own. Gard is a wallbreaker with tremendous power, good typing, great coverage and utility options, considerable bulk, and solid speed to top it off. The combination of all of these is something we rarely see in UU if at all and simply makes it too much to handle.

In phase 1 of SSD, MGard gets 6% usage in UU and has a 0% winrate. In phase 2, those numbers skyrocket to 23% usage and a 71% winrate. It's not too difficult to see why; its most consistent check was banned from the tier. Those numbers are only bound to increase if Gard isn't banned by playoffs as the tier just lost another huge form of counterplay to it in Weavile. Pursuit was one of the best ways to deal with Gard, but the tier no longer has anything remotely as splashable and effective as Weavile was. Hopefully this will be banned before then so the meta won't be as chaotic.
 

Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
UU Leader
#95
Thanks for the discussion, all. For this vote, dodmen agreed to service as rotating council, giving us a ten-person council. In a near-unanimous 9-1 vote, the council has decided to ban Gardevoir-Mega from UnderUsed. Eyan and The Immortal, please update the ladder accordingly.

BAN: Amaroq, Christo, dodmen, Eyan, Hogg, Pearl, pokeisfun, Sacri', Tony
DO NOT BAN: Hikari


The council is currently discussing the next suspect test, which will most likely be a public one. In the meantime, I'll leave this thread open to discuss the new meta.

 
#96
I mean. It's gotta be Mega Latias. Thing's checks are few and far between and are all way easier to exploit than MLati itself.

Still, another score for Mega Sceptile. My boy might be good again soon.

Editing because this does sound kinda stupid: checks being things that actually might scare it out. So far, I've got a list of three things, and all of them outright lose to Stored Power + HP Fire.
 
#97
Praise the sun! With garde and vile gone we can see how the meta will shake out. People have been asking for a M-lati suspect. I was on the fence before but honestly i think M-lati could use a suspect. CM M-lati is absolutely deadly. at +2 it can easily take a specs prima moonblast, then proceed to kill it (it sets up 1 CM when prima switches in. Then another as it outspeeds)

252 SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 162-192 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO
+2 0 SpA Latias-Mega Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 255-300 (84.7 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even scarf hydreigon cant OHKO m-lati
252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 290-344 (79.6 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Then Lati just roosts off the damage and sets up.
-2 252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 146-174 (40.1 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


M-lati can also run a plethora of viable moves. hp fire boltbeam stored power dragon pulse/meteor. It depends on what your team needs. I wanna wait a bit for the meta to develop without weavile and m-garde, but I'm really coming around to the idea wht M-lati is unhealthy for the tier.
 
#98
Yeah, M Latias should go. I don't think I need to reiterate everybody else's points, and, as usual, I came here to talk about something else.
After all these suspect tests and tier shifts, you may notice something lurking just above uu. The Banlist. In the current metagame, there are a lot of pokemon outclassed in ou, yet way too powerful for uu. Including the recent bans, there are 25 pokemon. TWENTY-FIVE pokemon. That's a pretty big banlist. UU has fifty-six pokemon or so. Only about 35 of them are really used though. (Things like pidgeot,chandelure,primarina aren't really used). Let me get to the point. That's enough to create a tier, in tandem with usage of mons from uu. You want to know the reason why so much overpowered, annoying pokemon like jirachi annd gardevoir keep dropping? It's a sign that a new tier may need to be developed. With this tier in place, broken drops would fall into BL, further enriching the tier. Furthermore, the BL tier would have an offensive metagame, similiar to early uu. This would make it plausible for near uncounterable pokemon to toddle around in this meta, thanks to the lack of easy switch ins and passive pokemon. This tier may even absorb some annoying things out of uu, such as the volt-turn kingpins,as their usage would render them in that higher tier. UU would stabilize quickly, and actually stabilize, thanks to the sucking motion from the tier above, similiar to what happened to Ninetales-Alola. Therefore what is actually underused will be uu. We may end up with a metagame slightly similar to oras, except with game changing z moves, and several noticeable differences. I'd like to hear your guys' thoughts on the idea. BL:Alakazam, Azumarill, Breloom, Buzzwole, Conkeldurr, Diggersby, Gallade-Mega, Gyarados, Heracross-Mega, Hoopa-Unbound, Houndoom-Mega, Jirachi, Porygon-Z, Salamence, Scolipede, Serperior, Slowbro-Mega, Staraptor, Thundurus, Tornadus-Therian, Victini, Xurkitree,Weavile,Gardevoir Mega
 
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