np: SM UU Stage 4.1 - Shine [Weavile & Gardevoir-Mega banned]

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Sacri'

Itching for a fight
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Please make M-Latias a council vote, another month for public suspects is not ideal for the tiers development.

M-Latias has been around for long enough that we know exactly what it does, council vote would be fine.
I understand the concern regarding a new public suspect but I still feel like it would be the most appropriate way to handle Latias-Mega. We council suspect things that are expected to be almost universally agreed upon as it was the case for Gardevoir-Mega: it clearly had no business being UU and the council votes reflected just that. Latias's case is very much different though, while it is indeed an extremely potent threat it doesn't seem as obviously broken as Gardevoir was. Myself and a few other council members aren't too sure about Mega Latias being broken which is why a public suspect is going to be favored in this specific case. The council hasn't publically expressed any thoughts regarding Mega Latias which made it look like we agreed that no debate was needed, it is however not the case and we feel like the subject at hand needs to be thoroughly discussed by the community.

I also understand that it may be frustrating for the community to see many publics suspects being held in a row but I'm sure you are aware of the impact that the latest tier shifts had on our metagame. I personally feel like the state of the tier has already improved very much since the aformentioned tier shits and I'm hoping this suspect will be another step towards the creation of a quality metagame.
 
I'm for a council vote, the logic behind public votes was supposed to be only had public votes for reintroductions, after having a balanced metagame according to the tiering policy thread (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/underused-tiering.3592197/)

However the super giant tier shifts have thrown a wrench in that logic (we don't really have a healthy balanced metagame is a core part of this argument).

I don't see why we need more time we've had mega Latias in the tier for about a month now and it's only gotten better since the bans
 
I understand the concern regarding a new public suspect but I still feel like it would be the most appropriate way to handle Latias-Mega. We council suspect things that are expected to be almost universally agreed upon as it was the case for Gardevoir-Mega: it clearly had no business being UU and the council votes reflected just that. Latias's case is very much different though, while it is indeed an extremely potent threat it doesn't seem as obviously broken as Gardevoir was. Myself and a few other council members aren't too sure about Mega Latias being broken which is why a public suspect is going to be favored in this specific case. The council hasn't publically expressed any thoughts regarding Mega Latias which made it look like we agreed that no debate was needed, it is however not the case and we feel like the subject at hand needs to be thoroughly discussed by the community.

I also understand that it may be frustrating for the community to see many publics suspects being held in a row but I'm sure you are aware of the impact that the latest tier shifts had on our metagame. I personally feel like the state of the tier has already improved very much since the aformentioned tier shits and I'm hoping this suspect will be another step towards the creation of a quality metagame.
Well, the thing is, the community already agreed that it's broken. It may not be as obviously broken as waifu mega but it's still pretty much universally agreed that it's broken. I haven't seen a single argument defending it from any part of the community and no one seems to have. And it's not like the opposing side hasn't been given time or anything to argue; it's just pretty much non-existant, opposition to a ban. Since the whole community agrees that it's broken, and there's no opposition, why waste time? This is especially considering the fact that there are a huge number of other issues in the tier we need to deal with. Everyone has been calling for more aggressive tiering and a public suspect would not be helpful in that Would it really kill to just have a council vote?

In addition, we've heard almost no word from the council on whether Latias-mega is broken or not. Could you guys please give your opinions already?
 

Hogg

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Though we’ve been a bit quiet, there is not a consensus within the council regarding whether or not Latias-Mega is broken. I’ll post my own thoughts on the matter when I have a bit more time, but the tl;dr is that while it is undoubtedly a strong contender for the best mon in the tier, it has some drawbacks that are being heavily downplayed in the current discussion.

As for the delay, we discussed things and wanted to allow a week of the new meta before we made a decision on how to proceed with Latias-Mega. Expect some news shortly.

Please council vote Latias-Mega first. If it somehow survives council vote, then please public suspect it later.
This is not an option currently on the table. We do not plan to hold any re-tests before USUM’s release. This includes re-tests of previous council votes.

I'm for a council vote, the logic behind public votes was supposed to be only had public votes for reintroductions, after having a balanced metagame according to the tiering policy thread (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/underused-tiering.3592197/)

However the super giant tier shifts have thrown a wrench in that logic (we don't really have a healthy balanced metagame is a core part of this argument).
This is actually backwards. When we switched to public suspects the idea was that they would fully replace council votes with the exception of periods immediately following a tier shift. We’ve had a few extra council votes recently in extreme circumstances (Jirachi, Gardevoir-Mega), but they remain the exception rather than the rule.

As far as the quality of the tier goes, I think that the tier has actually improved a ton since the last two bans. It was pretty chaotic following the tier shift but it has settled a lot since then, and I’ve been having a lot of fun in this meta. Recent tours have shown a ton of team variety as well, which is always a good sign of the health of a tier.
 
It's not backwards at all:

I understand 100% council votes are supposed to be exceptions except after tier shifts.

What I'm saying is the logic behind that is the tier is SUPPOSED to be more stable by the time we do public tests (which started with Conkeldurr). And it was.

And now I'm saying *some* people, myself included, think the tier is not stable because the tier shifts were bigger than expected and we didn't cope well at first with not enough bans.

Therefore we should be fine doing council suspect right now for Mega Latias, because the tier is *supposedly* very bad and sad.
 
Hey guys. I have been busy since Weavile and Mega Gardevoir got banned and have been eager to play more UU as I think the meta is a lot better with those two pokemon out of the way. I read the last couple pages and got pretty shocked to see all this gassing of Mega Latias. Sure, Weavile and Gardevoir were great checks to Mega Lati, and it surely it will be more viable and threatening, but I do not rap my head around this ban. I can see some merit to a ban. It has great utility with Defog, has the ability to run the coverage it needs to function on any team, and has a menacing Calm Mind + Stored Power + Reflect Type set. This set allows it to PP stall scarf dark types like Krookodile and Hydreigon(Hydreigon obviously wins 1v1, but loses if it comes switches in on a Calm Mind baring no flinch/crit) whom of which are the main 2 dark types in the tier.

Although Mega Latias has these attributes in it's favor, I find it to be pretty easy to play around. No one seems to mention how Toxic shuts down every Latias set ever. Klefki still walls Latias and it is as relevant as ever. Sure you can predict Klefki to come in and click Reflect Type, making yourself immune to Toxic, but that is really easy to play around and takes a good amount of prediction. On top of that, Mega Latias's natural passiveness makes it pretty easy to pivot around. Lati doesn't really wall that much of the tier if you prepare for it. Looking at the top of the VR, Scizor, Aero, Gliscor Toxic, Klefki, Non-Mega Latias, Sharpedo, Altaria, Beedrill, Hydreigon Mamoswine, Primarina, Swampert Toxic all pressure Mega Latias. Not to mention pokemon like Rotom, Manectric and Infernape, which Mega Latias does wall, use Volt Switch/U-Turn. Extremely underrated pokemon like Sylveon wall and benefit from Defog Mega-Latias allowing free Wish passing too.

I think most of this thread jumped to conclusions faster than it should. Instead of crying for a ban I think we should sack the fuck up and try a bit harder. Get a little more creative in your ways to deal with this pokemon. For example you can use Toxic as the filler move on scarf Krookodile or Punishment on Infernape. There is a difference between really good and broken, and I think we need time to make that distinction with Mega Latias. So imo lets cool off on any suspect and try a little harder on ways to handle this threat.
 

Hogg

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Since the whole community agrees that it's broken, and there's no opposition, why waste time? This is especially considering the fact that there are a huge number of other issues in the tier we need to deal with. Everyone has been calling for more aggressive tiering and a public suspect would not be helpful in that Would it really kill to just have a council vote?

In addition, we've heard almost no word from the council on whether Latias-mega is broken or not. Could you guys please give your opinions already?
As to your first point, I think you're assuming that a council vote would more or less be synonymous with a ban. While we have not yet voted, I think this is far from a foregone conclusion. We've been discussing Latias-Mega all week since the Garde ban. When I say that the council is divided on whether or not this is banworthy, I'm not exaggerating. We run the full gamut, from those of us who feel that it shouldn't even be suspected at all (much less banned) to those who want to push for one without waiting for a full suspect.

Council votes are meant to be used in extreme circumstances, when something is so unhealthy that it is single-handedly unbalancing the tier. Jirachi, for example, far from being balanced by the more offensive post-tier shift meta, proved to be an incredibly toxic and dominating force with its Happy Hour set following the Hera/Gallade suspect. Gardevoir-Mega was similarly dominating, especially in the post-rachi meta, with most teams having little counterplay to it outside of hoping to trap it with Weavile. These were major cases where a single threat was skewing the meta in a really significant way.

I've seen a lot of posts of people saying that they don't like Latias-Mega and think it should be banned, but I haven't really seen a lot of justification for this. Most of the arguments devolve into "it's fat, it has ways to beat a lot of its counters." That's definitely true. Latias-Mega has a ton of really good sets, and I think it might be banworthy on the basis of its sheer unpredictability. I'm not saying I would vote ban, but I can at least understand the arguments there. However, I haven't seen any convincing arguments that that it is as dramatically unhealthy or is skewing the tier as negatively as the other threats that have warranted such drastic action. I've been playing quite a lot in the post-Garde/Weav meta, and while Latias-Mega makes a pretty good case for being the best 'mon in the tier, the meta as a whole has actually been a lot of fun and I've felt a lot more flexibility with teambuilding than I did in, say, the Gardevoir or Jirachi metas.

As for your second point, I think people are seriously downplaying some of Latias-Mega's issues. It is exceptional when used defensively, and it is a great late-game wincon, but it requires a significant amount of team support to properly sweep. It is super vulnerable to status, in particular Toxic, and even sets with HP Fire/Fighting struggle a lot against most of the bulky Steels (Klefki in particular, but Empoleon, Bronzong, Aggron-Mega and Metagross have all been extremely effective in this meta). Similarly, it has a lot of difficulty breaking through AV Muk, which has spiked heavily in usage following Weavile's ban. It also lacks the immediate firepower of regular Latias, which has the advantage of being able to carry a Z-crystal to punch through threats, and typically has to rely on coverage or on less reliable moves like Stored Power to pressure bulkier foes. It also still struggles against the other Megas in the tier, in particular Altaria, Beedrill, Aggron and Sharpedo.

Of course, it has ways of breaking through all of these counters, which is why I think it still deserves a suspect. It has crazy coverage options, and Reflect Type or Refresh can help it break past some of its vulnerabilities. All of these come at a cost, though. Running Reflect Type or Refresh typically limits you to one attacking move, which means either picking something like Stored Power (which means you have no way of hitting things for reasonable damage without several boosts under your belt and you become completely vulnerable to Dark types), or going with a general neutral move like Ice Beam (which means you have major issues with coverage, no reliable STAB and struggle to break through special walls). You can build around all of these issues with the rest of your team... but again, Latias-Mega just requires a lot more team support to sweep than people seem to be admitting in this thread.

So yeah, I think that there are genuine merits to discussing and possibly suspecting Latias-Mega, but I do not think it is so overwhelming that it needs an immediate council ban.
 

Amaroq

Avatar courtesy of DrReuniclus
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The council is currently debating the appropriate next step in the development of the current metagame. As the contrast between the above posts suggests, we have not yet reached a consensus. However, the most likely outcome of that debate is a public suspect of Mega Latias. We intend to make more information regarding the ultimate decision available soon.

Personally, I think that the appropriate next step is to Ban Mega Latias. While none of its sets are broken on their own, the sheer number of options it can make use of in order to remove its counters, coupled with a vast pool of utility options like Reflect Type, Defog, Thunder Wave, and more, make it unhealthy for the metagame. Its combination of bulk, speed, and power makes it extremely customizable and allows it to serve whatever role its team requires.

That said, some forms of counterplay do exist. Mega Latias is very vulnerable to Toxic, as seen in the Smogon Snake tour. Plenty of Pokemon in the tier can run the move, and it is very possible for Choice Scarf users like Krookodile and Infernape to use Toxic in the 4th slot to provide some form of counterplay to Mega Latias, but this is not necessarily reliable and may only be sufficient to prevent Mega Latias from outright sweeping. It still has the opportunity to grab a kill or two before going down. Additionally, each set has its own form of counterplay, although this counterplay does not necessarily overlap and it is very easy to lose a Pokemon to Mega Latias before learning what coverage options it is running.

The council has also heard and discussed the concerns about Scizor's place in the tier. At this time, most of us believe that Scizor is not broken and that the greater playerbase is struggling to distinguish between "broken/unhealthy" and "really good Pokemon that must be accounted for if a player wants to succeed in the tier". While a Scizor suspect is not out of the question in the future if the meta changes enough to justify it, the council does not consider it an option at this time.
 
I'm kinda surprise that people just talk about Support Latias-Mega and Bulky Calm Minder when Offensive CM just lost 2 of its biggest threats a.k.a Weavile and Gardevoir-Mega.
I trully think that, like in early SUMO with Conkeldurr, people underestimate how good Offensive CM Latias-Mega is. I mean, just after one Calm Mind, Offensive CM Latias-Mega can be threatening as hell. Thanks to its typing and bulk, it's clearly not that hard for Latias-Mega to set-up just one Calm Mind.


Latias-Mega (F) @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Dragon Pulse / Draco Meteor
- Psyshock / Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire] / Thunderbolt / Roost / Filler you need

This set can basically deal with almost every Pokemon in the tier with just EH support (excluding SpeDef Klefki which force you to Switch if you don't want to be Thunder Wave / Toxic).

+1 252 SpA Latias-Mega Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 147-174 (35.5 - 42%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
+1 252 SpA Latias-Mega Dragon Pulse vs. 40 HP / 216 SpD Alomomola: 288-340 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Latias-Mega Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 210-247 (53.2 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Latias-Mega Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Mandibuzz: 171-202 (40.3 - 47.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Latias-Mega Dragon Pulse vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Swampert: 237-279 (59.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Latias-Mega Dragon Pulse vs. 244 HP / 116 SpD Gliscor: 160-190 (45.4 - 53.9%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal (which mean 2HKO if Poison Heal isn't activate yet)

+1 252 SpA Latias-Mega Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 375-442 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Latias-Mega Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria-Mega: 127-151 (43.6 - 51.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Latias-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 110-130 (34.5 - 40.8%) -- 60.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Latias-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 164-194 (51.5 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Latias-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 152-180 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- 83.6% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Latias-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 136 SpD Scizor: 288-340 (83.9 - 99.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes (or Stealth Rock)
+1 252 SpA Latias-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cobalion: 272-320 (84.2 - 99%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

+1 252 SpA Latias-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 40 HP / 216 SpD Alomomola: 408-480 (84.8 - 99.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Latias-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Mandibuzz: 242-286 (57 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Latias-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 222-262 (59.6 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


Tbh since the shift, Latias-Mega only got better, losing one by one its checks / counters (Jirachi, Weavile and now Gardevoir-Mega). I trully think Latias-Mega is right now too much for UU and should go.
 
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eaglehawk

once known as smogon gay baby #4
I'm kinda surprise that people just talk about Support Latias-Mega and Bulky Calm Minder when Offensive CM just lost 2 of its biggest threats a.k.a Weavile and Gardevoir-Mega.
I trully think that, like in early SUMO with Conkeldurr, people underestimate how good Offensive CM Latias-Mega is. I mean, just after one Calm Mind, Offensive CM Latias-Mega can be threatening as hell. Thanks to its typing and bulk, it's clearly not that hard for Latias-Mega to set-up just one Calm Mind.


Latias-Mega (F) @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Dragon Pulse / Draco Meteor
- Psyshock / Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire] / Thunderbolt / Roost / Filler you need

This set can basically deal with almost every Pokemon in the tier with just EH support (excluding SpeDef Klefki which force you to Switch if you don't want to be Thunder Wave / Toxic).

+1 252 SpA Latias-Mega Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 147-174 (35.5 - 42%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
+1 252 SpA Latias-Mega Dragon Pulse vs. 40 HP / 216 SpD Alomomola: 288-340 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Latias-Mega Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 210-247 (53.2 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Latias-Mega Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Mandibuzz: 171-202 (40.3 - 47.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Latias-Mega Dragon Pulse vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Swampert: 237-279 (59.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Latias-Mega Dragon Pulse vs. 244 HP / 116 SpD Gliscor: 160-190 (45.4 - 53.9%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal (which mean 2HKO if Poison Heal isn't activate yet)

+1 252 SpA Latias-Mega Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 375-442 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Latias-Mega Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria-Mega: 127-151 (43.6 - 51.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Latias-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 110-130 (34.5 - 40.8%) -- 60.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Latias-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 164-194 (51.5 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Latias-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 152-180 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- 83.6% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Latias-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 136 SpD Scizor: 288-340 (83.9 - 99.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes (or Stealth Rock)
+1 252 SpA Latias-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cobalion: 272-320 (84.2 - 99%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

+1 252 SpA Latias-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 40 HP / 216 SpD Alomomola: 408-480 (84.8 - 99.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Latias-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Mandibuzz: 242-286 (57 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Latias-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 222-262 (59.6 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


Tbh since the shift, Latias-Mega only got better, losing one by one its checks / counters (Jirachi, Weavile and now Gardevoir-Mega). I trully think Latias-Mega is right now too much for UU and should go.
I know I'm being a bit lazy and should be calc'ing this myself, but does Offensive CM M-Latias match the same KOs that CM Latias can with Z-Draco Meteor or Z-Thunder? If not, then the regular Latias form outclasses M-Latias in that aspect. The only benefit I could see is a marginally stronger Psyshock against Blissey, but Blissey is a still high chance for 2HKO after Rocks damage from a +1 Latias Psyshock.
 
I know I'm being a bit lazy and should be calc'ing this myself, but does Offensive CM M-Latias match the same KOs that CM Latias can with Z-Draco Meteor or Z-Thunder? If not, then the regular Latias form outclasses M-Latias in that aspect. The only benefit I could see is a marginally stronger Psyshock against Blissey, but Blissey is a still high chance for 2HKO after Rocks damage from a +1 Latias Psyshock.
Uninvested M-Latias hits just as hard as invested regular Latias, who hits 319 SpA as opposed to M-Lati's 316 SpA. M-Lati sports considerably more bulk especially since you can run it with max HP, allowing you to tank hits much better - for example, you avoid the 2hko from CB's Zor's BP, whereas regular Lati doesn't. You can then afford to run a Z-move on something else like Cobalion or w/e you feel like using. I guess you can opt to use regular Latias if you want to use some other mega like Altaria, Manectric, Shark, etc but really, I wouldn't say that Latias outclasses it bar hitting Blissey harder since after the Z-Move, you're hitting just as hard. I would usually run something like CM / Roost / SP / filler regardless and the extra bulk really helps you tank a ton of hits easier, making setting up CM's that much simpler.

edit @ below: oh my bad, thought you were asking in general
 
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eaglehawk

once known as smogon gay baby #4
Uninvested M-Latias hits just as hard as invested regular Latias, who hits 319 SpA as opposed to M-Lati's 316 SpA. M-Lati sports considerably more bulk especially since you can run it with max HP, allowing you to tank hits much better - for example, you avoid the 2hko from CB's Zor's BP, whereas regular Lati doesn't. You can then afford to run a Z-move on something else like Cobalion or w/e you feel like using. I guess you can opt to use regular Latias if you want to use some other mega like Altaria, Manectric, Shark, etc but really, I wouldn't say that Latias outclasses it bar hitting Blissey harder since after the Z-Move, you're hitting just as hard. I would usually run something like CM / Roost / SP / filler regardless and the extra bulk really helps you tank a ton of hits easier, making setting up CM's that much simpler.
My post was more of a direct response to Moutemoute's set and not the CM+Stored Power set. I just personally think that, measured against M-Latias Opportunity cost, Moute's variant just seem really inefficient use of a mega slot.
 

Hogg

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I’ve tried offensive MLati and it’s alright. Offensively it’s outclassed by LO and Z versions of regular Latias, and it struggles a bit defensively despite its bulk without investment or recovery, but it’s an alright alternative if you don’t have another mega you’re planning on using.

I have had more success with 3 attacks + Roost than CM on offensive MLati, though. Access to recovery makes a big difference. It acts as a solid anti-offense mon with its great coverage, hitting almost as hard as LO Lati but with no recoil and better bulk.
 
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