np: SM UU Stage 4.2 - Paper Planes (Latias-Mega Banned)

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Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
UU Leader
#1

After much discussion, the council has decided to suspect Latias-Mega. With a great Speed tier, exceptional bulk and a vast movepool, Latias-Mega is proving herself to be a top threat in the tier. While she lacks the immediate offensive firepower of previous threats such as Gardevoir-Mega, her incredible versatility makes her difficult to predict, and her fantastic bulk and defensive typing/ability makes her easy to fit on most teams. However, it is not all clear skies for this member of the Eon Duo. Latias-Mega finds herself very vulnerable to status, and even with her excellent coverage she often finds difficulty in breaking through common threats such as Klefki, Empoleon, Altaria-Mega and Alolan Muk. While she has the tools to get around many of her checks and counters, many of these options leave her vulnerable to more common threats, and she requires a significant amount of team support to reliably sweep. However, even with these drawbacks, Latias-Mega is easily one of the most threatening Pokemon in the tier, and the council believes that she deserves a suspect test.

The suspect test will have an N value of 20 and a COIL requirement of 2650. In addition, there will be a game limit of 90 games. It will last for two weeks. Latias-Mega will be allowed on the suspect ladder.

You can calculate the number of games required using this formula: N=20.0/log2(40*GXE/2650)

Eyan and The Immortal, please set up the suspect ladder with Latias-Mega.

 
#2
I'm first
Ban this thing. It's been talked about extensively and we all know why:
-i don't think forcing tons of choice item users to use toxic is healthy, especially when most of them (terrakion for example) would much rather be running other options rather than be forced to toxic to not just auto lose.


I'm gonna write more later, out of time rn but yeah the thing is busted
 
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eaglehawk

once known as smogon gay baby #4
#3
I'm first
Ban this thing. It's been talked about extensively and we all know why:
-i don't think forcing tons of choice item users to use toxic is healthy, especially when most of them (nape for example) would much rather be running other options rather than be forced to toxic to not just auto lose. -
I'm gonna write more later, out of time rn but yeah the thing is busted
If anything, people would be running Punishment instead of Toxic on Infernape.

Also, people have been running Toxic on Choiced Pokemon well before Mega Latias, and even in stable metagames.

mod edit: can we please have a thread open for at least five minutes before we start insulting each other
 
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#4
About time this mon got suspected. This things versatility is unmatched in the tier. the variety of sets it can run such as defog reflect type/sub cm boltbeam ,reflect type/defog, cm double STAB, etc. This combined with its great bulk makes it an dominating pokemon in the uu metagame at the moment and therefore if i get uu reqs i'm voting ban.
 
#5
Good this mon is getting suspected. This mon has so many options that you have to scout out with multiple mons and have a toxic user that can Toxic this mon which comes down to toxic scarfers and mons like Blissey. This mon is amazing with an amazing move pool, stats, and typing. This mon as said before has way to many options that are great to be healthy. Some include CM + SP with a coverage move, Reflect Type, and defog. This mon doesn't need to invest in it's offensive or defensive stats barring HP. That is has how bulky this is and how much of an offensive presence this has even with just 1 CM up and if it gets 2 it become amazing both defensively and offensively. Overall this alone would make it great but on top of this it has a great speed tier at 110 for a defensive mon. This mon can also run reflect type which changes what beats this mon so you have to be weary of that set on top of the already dangerous CM set. If you decide to run offensive even that can work with it having a great movepool with boltbeam, decent stabs with psyshock, surf, and s-ball to beat other bulky psychics. Overall I hope this mon gets banned
 
#6

Magneton @ Choice Specs/Choice Scarf
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power Fire
I just wanted to highlight a pokemon that's been on the rise. With the recent popularity of steel types, (many,many steel types) magneton has found itself even more viable than it used to be. Used alongside threats such as Latias or Malt, it can be extremely effective at dismantling many defensive builds. With choice specs, Magneton can even put a dent in Aggron-M if necessary. Choice scarf on the other hand, lets it not be completely useless after it has eliminated its target. Overall, Magneton is a solid pokemon in the metagame, and will probably continue to be so as long as steels such as empoleon and scizor exist in the tier.
 
#7
Just saying, can we do something about how the meta is always changing, with bans/suspects/votes every other week. I know it will be hard to do, but I think it would be really beneficial.
 
#8
Just saying, can we do something about how the meta is always changing, with bans/suspects/votes every other week. I know it will be hard to do, but I think it would be really beneficial.
The alternative would be letting the metagame remain unbalanced, reducing the population (because for most people playing a shitty metagame is incredibly unfun, and for better or for worse the vast majority of us are here because we enjoy playing Pokemon), and overall hurt UU.

So, no.
 
#9
I'm first
Ban this thing. It's been talked about extensively and we all know why:
-i don't think forcing tons of choice item users to use toxic is healthy, especially when most of them (terrakion for example) would much rather be running other options rather than be forced to toxic to not just auto lose.


I'm gonna write more later, out of time rn but yeah the thing is busted
.

After much discussion, the council has decided to suspect Latias-Mega. With a great Speed tier, exceptional bulk and a vast movepool, Latias-Mega is proving herself to be a top threat in the tier. While she lacks the immediate offensive firepower of previous threats such as Gardevoir-Mega, her incredible versatility makes her difficult to predict, and her fantastic bulk and defensive typing/ability makes her easy to fit on most teams. However, it is not all clear skies for this member of the Eon Duo. Latias-Mega finds herself very vulnerable to status, and even with her excellent coverage she often finds difficulty in breaking through common threats such as Klefki, Empoleon, Altaria-Mega and Alolan Muk. While she has the tools to get around many of her checks and counters, many of these options leave her vulnerable to more common threats, and she requires a significant amount of team support to reliably sweep. However, even with these drawbacks, Latias-Mega is easily one of the most threatening Pokemon in the tier, and the council believes that she deserves a suspect test.

The suspect test will have an N value of 20 and a COIL requirement of 2650. In addition, there will be a game limit of 90 games. It will last for two weeks. Latias-Mega will be allowed on the suspect ladder.

You can calculate the number of games required using this formula: N=20.0/log2(40*GXE/2650)

Eyan and The Immortal, please set up the suspect ladder with Latias-Mega.

Ya said it yourself , lacks immediate firepower , requires significant support from teamates, if your opp outplayes u with a good team , if u fail to predict yer opp , then you deserve to lose. i have to admit it has become more powerful with weavile gone

The alternative would be letting the metagame remain unbalanced, reducing the population (because for most people playing a shitty metagame is incredibly unfun, and for better or for worse the vast majority of us are here because we enjoy playing Pokemon), and overall hurt UU.

So, no.
i dunno , UU was much better last December , much much much more fun
 
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#10
Alright, so our posts so far range from "just ban pls", to some weird tiering discussion, and a Magneton post which seems like it might belong in the VR thread. I want Latias-Mega gone, and there has been more than enough discussion on it imo, but if we're gonna go through the whole suspect process then we might as well actually throw a little bit more together about this mon for the sake of doing this right and all.

loud plane noises (Latias-Mega) @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt

So this is the set I've been using lately and its a fairly common one, it sacrifices any STAB or utility to run BoltBeam coverage and act as a very good late game cleaner. This set suffers against some bulkier teams as it needs a lot of boosts to even attempt to get past many special walls, many of which can stop it dead in it's tracks with Toxic, to mitigate this the team I have been using it on runs hazard stack, which allows me to play this set very aggressively and force my opponent to switch in early and often to build up chip damage on checks and counters until it can clean from +1 or +2.

soft plane noises (Latias-Mega) @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Reflect Type / Hidden Power Fire
- Dragon Pulse / Psyshock
- Defog

Another set that I've been running lately as a very good hazard remover that can keep those confounded cobblestones from hurting my team along with utilizing its great defensive typing to act as an effective mixed wall. This set is very sustainable with good recovery and Reflect Type to avoid being Pursuit trapped and to avoid being Toxic'd by certain mons like Klefki on a predicted switch in. Hidden Power Fire is also an option to help Latias-Mega deal with VoltTurn, as it already has no issue stepping in front of most Volt Switch mons, HP Fire can help it take out the most popular U-Turn user in the tier in Scizor. The trade off for using this set being extremely obvious in losing sweeping potential and being something of a waste of a mega slot, but with certain teambuilds that are desperate for a hazard removal mon that isn't completely destroyed by Manectric-Mega and VoltTurn this can be a very effective set. I'll be the first to say that I was slightly disappointed by this set, but even a disappointing Latias-Mega set can be extremely effective at what it needs to do for your team.
0 SpA Latias-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 276-328 (98.2 - 116.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

How to uninstall CB Scizor if you have put in literally any chip damage or a single layer of hazards.
 
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#11
Clefable Meta-Buzzwole Meta-Xurkitree Meta-Conkeldurr Meta-Jirachi Meta
This as far as I know, has been the history of sm uu so far. With each of these pokemons' arrival and departure, the meta shifts were incredible. Right now, we are still in the Jirachi Meta, as even though Jirachi has been banned, the playstyles are similar to when Jirachi was here. Our current issue at hand is Latias-M. I'd simply say ban it. Why? Why keep this monster? If you want the meta to go on, Latias-M HAS to go. Sure, toxic is it's achilles heel, but this thing is just way to good with its bulk and variety of sets. It is literally the best mon in the tier right now. Weavile and Gardevoir, two of its checks, are gone. Please get rid of this thing. Either way I'd say several pokemon would need to get banned for the meta to progress. After M-Latias, I think M-Alt or Scizor should be suspect tested. The absence of those 2, particularly scizor, would shake the meta in a way never before seen. You want to fix the meta, Scizor is probably the culprit. Spikes in usage of Sylveon, Aerodactyl M, Latias (who would probably be banned next), and many others would be seen. So my stance is that I'm for Latias-M being banned, as well as M-Alt, Scizor and Latias.
 
#13
So my stance is that I'm for Latias-M being banned, as well as M-Alt, Scizor and Latias.
Honestly I have to disagree and say that you're trying to move too quickly. All well and good to think that certain mons may be too good, but I'd say unless one of those mons looks really busted during this suspect that we should take a little bit of time. Especially in the cases of Latias and Scizor, they're both great meta defining mons of course, but there's still a difference between that and broken. I half sarcastically brought up the fact that I would suspect Sciz before Rotom-W when you brought it up last thread, but honestly I don't see any reason to really even bring up other suspects.

Can we stay on topic for three posts?
 
#14
Every single argument seems to boil down to "Mega Latias is the best Pokemon in UU and it is kinda hard to kill". There's no raw power, it isn't unkillable, and there are plenty of common ways of playing around and/or punishing it. I haven't seen anything that screams broken to me and it honestly seems that people are starting to mix up "being a metagame defining threat" with "being unmanageable and ruining the metagame".

I do believe Mega Latias is the best Pokemon in the tier. It checks a fuckton of Pokemon without being passive, which finally gives non-defensive teams a solid defensive backbone to cover some major threats, it doesn't go down easily thanks to its massive bulk and Speed, and is able to sweep under certain conditions. Every team must be prepared to face it or they risk getting eaten alive by it. Despite all that, I don't consider Mega Latias to be broken and I feel like it's a positive presence in the metagame.

There's always something at the top and I am perfectly fine with Mega Latias being it.
 
#15
Every single argument seems to boil down to "Mega Latias is the best Pokemon in UU and it is kinda hard to kill". There's no raw power, it isn't unkillable, and there are plenty of common ways of playing around and/or punishing it. I haven't seen anything that screams broken to me and it honestly seems that people are starting to mix up "being a metagame defining threat" with "being unmanageable and ruining the metagame".

I do believe Mega Latias is the best Pokemon in the tier. It checks a fuckton of Pokemon without being passive, which finally gives non-defensive teams a solid defensive backbone to cover some major threats, it doesn't go down easily thanks to its massive bulk and Speed, and is able to sweep under certain conditions. Every team must be prepared to face it or they risk getting eaten alive by it. Despite all that, I don't consider Mega Latias to be broken and I feel like it's a positive presence in the metagame.

There's always something at the top and I am perfectly fine with Mega Latias being it.
What? I strongly disagree with this post. Scizor is a metagame defining threat. It’s really great and has multiple roles but CAN be beaten by strong Fire types, physical walls that can deal with such as Alo and Pert, and even can be hit really hard by strong attacks such as M-Pidge Hurricanes and Hydro Pumps from Primarina and M-Blastoise.

M-Latias is defintitely unmanageable. A Pokémon does not need to be extremely powerful to be unmanageable. It’s versality and sheer bulk alone allows it to basically swallow teams whole and turn them to setup fodder. Seriously, you say there’s ways of beating it, but you didn’t even list these ways. Dark types are beaten by the Reflect Type and Roost and can be stalled out of their Dark STABs until they’re setup fodder. Even Primarina, has to lose some of its health just to beat it if it’s BoltBeam. It’s unpredictability just makes it even more insane. You literally have to toxic this thing or pray your opponent is bad or misplays or it’s all over for you if it gets free turns to CM. And last I checked, nothing is really preventing it from doing that in this tier.
 
#16
Before talking about mega latias, I'll give my opinion on how the uu suspect process is going, now that we are 3 suspects in since the release of s&m.

This suspect process has been excruciatingly slow, taking a full month to complete each suspect test. The process is two weeks of suspecting, one week of voting, 3 days for uu suspect ladder to switch back to uu, and 5 more days for the banned pokemon to get taken off the ladder. We are now approaching a full year of S&M, and uu is unbalanced due to being unable to keep up with drops. If this extremely slow suspect process continues after the release of Ultra S&M, uu will remain unbalanced for the rest of this year and into next year. There a few ways to shorten this suspect process. One way is to suspect multiple pokemon at once. I thought the heracross / mgarde double suspect went well and saw no problem is suspecting multiple pokemon. Another way to speed up suspect tests is to allow people to vote as soon as they get their reqs, so that there doesnt have to be a full week for "voting." (Xurkitree, mgarde / heracross, and weavile's voting periods were all a full week).

On to mega latias. People have been arguing for a mega latias ban for 2 months and I agree that it should be banned. Mega latias is similar to jirachi in that it can choose what checks it beats. Reflect type beats klefki, hp fire beats scizor (with decent SpA investment), calm mind beats literally any special attacker, and +1 thunderbolt can finish off a chipped empoleon. The fact that mega latias can beat all of its checks depending on its set, enable mega latias to take down multiple pokemon after breaking through its checks. The ability to break through its checks and kill multiple pokemon afterward easily fits the definition of "broken".
 

Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
UU Leader
#17
I know it's become a meme to talk about how unbalanced UU is right now but like... are people actually playing the same tier that I am? Since the last round of bans I've found this to be one of the most fun metas since SM's release. A pretty sizable percentage of the complaints about the tier's balance that I actually see tend to shake down to "I don't like playing against VoltTurn" or "I don't like having to prep for top threats." The last tier shift definitely made things fairly rocky, but things have settled a lot following Jirachi's ban, and the Weav/Garde bans have served to really balance things a lot as well. I'd certainly place the current meta well above the Jirachi meta, the AloTales/Lucha/Xurk meta and the Conk meta. People have taken to waxing rhapsodically about the Clef meta lately but when it was actually legal we got a ton of complaints about how bad Clefable was for the tier.

Since the Gardevoir/Weavile ban, balance and stall have both become significantly more viable without diminishing offense as a playstyle, and despite the complaints about VoltTurn (which banning MLati will do nothing to alleviate and will only make worse) I actually see a ton of variety both in tours and on the ladder. This is probably the most balanced meta I've seen since around UUPL, and while I know fun is subjective, I definitely have been having fun playing it.

Also re: the speed of suspects, the tier shift was the beginning of September. It’s not yet November and we’ve already had six bans. I understand that it’s frustrating to go through a suspect process for something “obviously” broken but I don’t know of any other official tier with as many bans in as short a period of time. Personally as TL I don’t want to fall into the trap of banning things just to preserve the status quo, which is why I prefer incremental suspects to mass council bans.

As for Latias-Mega itself, I'd agree with Hikari that it's probably the best 'mon in the tier right now. It has incredible defensive utility while also consistently threatening a late-game sweep, akin to Suicune at its best last gen. That doesn't necessarily mean it's broken, though. It's certainly something you have to prep for, and you do typically have to prep for multiple sets—but the same is true for Scizor and regular Latias, and the same was true for Clefable when it was legal.

Right now I think that MLati's usage largely breaks down into 3 main roles: defensive utility, lategame sweeper and hybrid. To break it down further...

Defensive utility is where I'd place Defog versions, Thunder Wave versions, etc. It's also (ironically enough) where offensive variants like 3 attacks + Roost tend to fall. These are sets where Latias relies on its excellent bulk and coverage to switch into a large number of threats and force them out, get rid of hazards, spread para, whatever. These are really consistently good at what they do, and probably the sets I use the most frequently.

Lategame sweepers sacrifice utility and offensive presence for the ability to sweep through teams lategame. These usually either run Stored Power to break through bulkier teams and special walls, or Reflect Type/Refresh to become less vulnerable to status and Dark types. They're definitely deadly, but they lose out on immediate firepower and become far easier to pressure offensively, both because it's much easier to switch directly into these sets, and because their lack of immediate firepower means that they often don't threaten out whatever they've come in on. For example, while I often use MLati as a solid Cobalion check, I managed to beat a CM Stored Power MLati with my own Cobalion last night because it had no way to 2HKO me in return, giving me the opportunity to Swords Dance and kill with Corkscrew Crash. These sets are incredibly deadly and difficult to stop once they get rolling, but they also require a significant amount of team support and lose out on a lot of the utility that Latias otherwise provides.

Hybrid sets try to do a bit of both, relying on two decently strong attacks with good coverage such as BoltBeam or Dragon Pulse + HP Fire, while still sporting Calm Mind to help it better check opposing special attackers and potentially sweep. These are a nice compromise because they retain enough utility to be able to fit on most teams without a ton of support, but they're also generally the most vulnerable to status, and they often struggle to break through dedicated special walls like Blissey.

Most of the arguments I've seen for banning MLati fall under the second category, which admittedly is scary; there are only a handful of things in the entire tier that can actually outspeed and kill a fully healthy Latias-Mega, so if it racks up a couple of boosts it can become very difficult to deal with. What these arguments seem to ignore is the team support, luck and prediction required to get these sets to work. For every game where I see Latias-Mega do something ridiculous like set up on a Hydreigon, I see another two where it gets trapped in a cycle of endlessly roosting to remain healthy enough to set up until it eventually gets forced out or crit. For every game where I've seen a surprise Reflect Type beat an otherwise solid counter like Alola-Muk or Toxic Empoleon, I've seen even more where being forced to a single attacking move meant that Latias wasn't threatening enough to sweep even after several boosts. It's definitely good—I think there are very few threats in the tier scarier than a fully healthy Latias-Mega with a Calm Mind under its belt—but it's just not so good that I would call it broken.

If there's any argument at all for Latias-Mega being broken, I think it probably falls under how difficult it is to prep for all the different varieties it presents. I don't think I agree with this argument, and if we voted today I'd be voting no ban, but of all the arguments I've seen about Latias-Mega's negative effect on the tier it's the only one that really has merit for me. It's what I plan to focus on for the next week and a half to see if it sways my opinion.
 

Sacri'

Itching for a fight
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
#18
The Snake Draft tournament is currently ending and Mega Latias has been available in the tier throughout the tour. I've noticed that the discussions didnt make much use of high level replays even though 45 extremely competitive games occured while Mega Latias was available in the tier. Weavile and Mega Gardevoir were also available back then so I won't use replays in which those 2 had a significant impact.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-314766: Latias weakens significantly Mantine but gets poisoned in the process. It also managed to cripple Coba with Thunder-Wave which was quite good for me, however this replay also shows that Latias is quite weak without any spA, it failed to 2hko Cobalion and it could have been used as a set up fodder by a potential sub cm raikou.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-315477: Lycan's Mega Latias dodges a Thunder-Wave from Rotom-W but still fails to do anything significant. It had Dragon Pulse and HP Fire which was one of the best potential variants to beat my team but it still needed to predict on some key turns and to get a bit lucky to have an impact.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-317092: Latias faces stall and gets walled by Doublade and Blissey throughout the game thus failing to do anything.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-317245: Tesung's Latias does quite well here, HP Fire + Defog helped him a lot vs Klefki and it also got a kill on Hydreigon thanks to a good prediction. This shows the potential of supports sets which I find good but still far from groundbreaking.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-314913: Thanks to Weavile and Scizor's support, Latias ends up cleaning HT's weakened team. This shows how goold volt turn cores are at supporting fast win conditions but it also means that Latias can't just win on its own as some people seem to claim.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-317209: McM's latias gets trapped by a surprise Pursuit Snorlax and does nothing the whole game. This is a good exemple of an effective Latias lure.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-321351: Pearl's Offensive Latias manages to take down a Blissey at the cost of most of it's health thus letting tesung's Aero trapkill it. This shows that Latias can do well vs stall with the right variant but it is yet again far from being able to break them on its own.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-325482: Analytics Latias is sacrificed early on, most likely because it didn't have any tools to break Stall.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-324903: Lycans Latias puts in some work here, it walled Nihilego throughout the game and also forced Gliscor out a few times, it was still walled by Mcm's umbreon throughout the game though. McM's Latias on the other end, turned out to be walled by Mantine thus making it unable to do much this game.

These games show that Latias is usually better on paper than in practice. It is indeed able to fill many roles on team but each set has its flaws and require proper support to work decently. It's also true that finding out which variant is being used can be frustrating but the fact that Latias isnt that powerful makes it easier to scout its set so as to beat it properly. It takes some slight preparation to beat Latias but all things considered I don't think is nearly as threatening as many people seem to think.
 

eaglehawk

once known as smogon gay baby #4
#19
What? I strongly disagree with this post. Scizor is a metagame defining threat. It’s really great and has multiple roles but CAN be beaten by strong Fire types, physical walls that can deal with such as Alo and Pert, and even can be hit really hard by strong attacks such as M-Pidge Hurricanes and Hydro Pumps from Primarina and M-Blastoise.

M-Latias is defintitely unmanageable. A Pokémon does not need to be extremely powerful to be unmanageable. It’s versality and sheer bulk alone allows it to basically swallow teams whole and turn them to setup fodder. Seriously, you say there’s ways of beating it, but you didn’t even list these ways. Dark types are beaten by the Reflect Type and Roost and can be stalled out of their Dark STABs until they’re setup fodder. Even Primarina, has to lose some of its health just to beat it if it’s BoltBeam. It’s unpredictability just makes it even more insane. You literally have to toxic this thing or pray your opponent is bad or misplays or it’s all over for you if it gets free turns to CM. And last I checked, nothing is really preventing it from doing that in this tier.
Hah you sure told the tier leader!

In all honesty, Hogg brings up a good point with the issue with Late-Game Latias. Outside of its late-game potential, you also have it kind of functioning as a pivot in the early- and mid-game From the battles I've played and spectated, the norm is almost always CM and Stored Power, but the last two slots is what makes the Pokemon manageable. You essentially have three options:

1) Avoiding Status/Checks (Refresh, Reflect Type)
2) Recovery (Roost, Recover)
3) Coverage (Thunderbolt, etc.)

Since you can really only pick two of the three, these options can be scouted out in the earlier phases, and once that is determined, you can play around that base on what your team has prepared for at the time. As Hogg said, because CM + SP variants need some notable team support, you can mostly deduce what variant of Latias you're dealing with (Utility or Sweeper) based off of team composition.

For Defensive utility, I think M-Latias is at a point where it's really good, but not to a metagame-constricting point like Mega-Steelix was in RU.

The biggest problem that is suspect-worthy for Mega Latias is that its non-mega version is also a top-tier metagame threat, and since you can't tell whether the Pokemon is a mega or not (especially since Z-Crystals can't be removed by Knock Off to check), the Latias most of the time gives its user the upper hand in this case.

If we combine all possible roles Latias and Mega-Latias can play, you can add wallbreaker to Hogg's list, and that last set can get around Latias' counters i.e. Empoleon. However, this is almost always an incredibly minor point because most of the time you can tell if Latias isn't a Mega Pokemon by the presence of something like Aggron, Sceptile, etc. in the opponent's team preview (unless you're in low ladder, then good luck). This is only in the case when you see a team with no obvious mega Pokemon and with Latias.

Also, not an insult, but I swear, the people shouting for a M-Latias ban are much better off as Creative Writing majors given how much they love to use colorful language to over-dramatize Mega Latias.
 
#20
I was initially super for banning this thing, but I'm gonna be honest I'm not really jived on banning it anymore. I always thought of mega latias as this unkillable monster, but I was way overexaggerating things. It's super weak to status and still vulnerable to being worn down by pursuit, it has a good few offensive checks that prevent it from being impossible for offense to handle, and depending on what mlati set you use you'll fall flat against some playstyle or another. I'm gonna have to agree with the TLs on this one so far; I'm fine with the meta in its current state when relating to mega latias. If I for some reason gather enough motivation to get reqs, I'd probably vote no ban atm.
 

roman

i could be ur supermodel
is a Tiering Contributor
#21
yeah i can totally agree with cake and some of the other players who have taken a step back to see if this is actually broken. at first i was completely ready for it to leave and was surprised it even got the luxury of a public vote lol. i just finished getting reqs with some pif stall and balance (s/o sparrow) and it wasn't overly difficult to play around. pretty much every playstyle from my experience has some form of viable conterplay (i didn't play ho much but we already know that it has klefki, zydog, sharpedo etc). and as hikari said, the meta seems much more healthy being lead by mlati than by something really dumb like buzz not to mention more enjoyable even if voltturn's usage is really annoying (that's all it is though lol).

that being said, i'm still undecided and i hope both sides can come up with some really good arguments so mlati gets the fair trial it deserves
 
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#22
Toxic & Muk-Alola are definitively not counter to Latias-Mega. A counter is a Pokemon / something that can shut down every freaking set of a Pokemon and it's not the case for Latias-Mega. I tested and discovered while laddering on the Suspect Ladder that CM / Reflect Type / Recover / Filler Latias-Mega is freaking brainless. Tbh, I see this like as a Z-Happy Hour Jirachi because it has basically 0 real counters and can win far too easily. People talk a lot of Muk-Alola but it's actually one of the worst Pokemon vs this Latias-Mega.

Turn 1 :
Latias-Mega vs some random Pokemon which can't deal with it. The opponent need to switch on Muk-Alola and you can set-up 1 Calm Mind.

Turn 2 :
Muk-Alola is in front of your Latias-Mega, you just have to Reflect Type and it's the beginning of the end because you have a Latias-Mega is 0 weakness (excluding Mold Breaker Earthquake) which can't be poisonned and can set-up Calm Mind, again and again and then spam is attack.

Tbh with this Latias-Mega set I defeated a player which had a Scizor, a Krookodile, a Primarina and a Muk-Alola on is team. Basically without a crit, it's kinda impossible to break through this set of Latias-Mega.



Broken Bird (Latias-Mega) @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Reflect Type
- Recover
- Ice Beam / Filler you want but Ice type has no immunity which is not the case of T-Bolt / D-Pulse or Stored Power.

Definitively gonna vote "Ban" if I get the reqs.
 

Euphonos

stains every heart that he uses to heal the pain
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
#23
Toxic & Muk-Alola are definitively not counter to Latias-Mega. A counter is a Pokemon / something that can shut down every freaking set of a Pokemon and it's not the case for Latias-Mega. I tested and discovered while laddering on the Suspect Ladder that CM / Reflect Type / Recover / Filler Latias-Mega is freaking brainless. Tbh, I see this like as a Z-Happy Hour Jirachi because it has basically 0 real counters and can win far too easily. People talk a lot of Muk-Alola but it's actually one of the worst Pokemon vs this Latias-Mega.

Turn 1 :
Latias-Mega vs some random Pokemon which can't deal with it. The opponent need to switch on Muk-Alola and you can set-up 1 Calm Mind.

Turn 2 :
Muk-Alola is in front of your Latias-Mega, you just have to Reflect Type and it's the beginning of the end because you have a Latias-Mega is 0 weakness (excluding Mold Breaker Earthquake) which can't be poisonned and can set-up Calm Mind, again and again and then spam is attack.

Tbh with this Latias-Mega set I defeated a player which had a Scizor, a Krookodile, a Primarina and a Muk-Alola on is team. Basically without a crit, it's kinda impossible to break through this set of Latias-Mega.



Broken Bird (Latias-Mega) @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Reflect Type
- Recover
- Ice Beam / Filler you want but Ice type has no immunity which is not the case of T-Bolt / D-Pulse or Stored Power.
No.

As an advocate of Reflect Type Mega Latias myself, sure, it definitely is one of the most annoying Pokemon to play against, but I myself made some discoveries whenever people play against this Mega Latias set. First, some, if not most, team compositions bank on a Steel-type like Scizor and Fire-type like Choice Scarf Infernape to take care of Mega Latias, forcing it out in the process. Another one is that while Ice Beam is the most potent move by virtue of not having immunities like Thunderbolt, Dragon Pulse, and Stored Power, Ice Beam doesn't hit those aforementioned Steel-types and Fire-types reliably well unlike if you're using Surf as its sole move.

While Alolan Muk struggles against Reflect Type Latias, this doesn't mean Alolan Muk is already not a counter to Mega Latias; it's the closest to any counter available against other Mega Latias sets. And, for Reflect Type Latias users, it needs teammates' support as it depends on its sole move to clean house.

As for Mega Latias itself, I actually don't think that its qualities (reinforced bulk being one of those) are worth being ban-worthy. Unlike Weavile being effective at what it does despite having counterplay against it, Mega Latias, despite its variety of sets it can learn that would make opponents think twice what set it could do, falls short on covering every single Pokemon in the metagame due to her moveslot syndrome, hence requiring a hint of support to exert pressure against its common counters.
 
#24
while I'm leaning on the side of no-ban, just bc lati requires support to sweep doesn't make it any less broken/unhealthy, and neither does its 4MSS. it doesn't even need that much support either to sweep, as i find the CM hp fire stored power set fits super well on balance as u gradually wear down its checks and then sweep, while simultaneously providing checks to mons like cobalion, manectric, etc

i do find the cm stored power wars super dumb tho but that might just be suspect ladder idk
 

Euphonos

stains every heart that he uses to heal the pain
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
#25
...Mega Latias, despite its variety of sets it can learn that would make opponents think twice what set it could do, falls short on covering every single Pokemon in the metagame due to her moveslot syndrome, hence requiring a hint of support to exert pressure against its common counters.
just bc lati requires support to sweep doesn't make it any less broken/unhealthy, and neither does its 4MSS. it doesn't even need that much support either to sweep, as i find the CM hp fire stored power set fits super well on balance as u gradually wear down its checks and then sweep, while simultaneously providing checks to mons like cobalion, manectric, etc
Did you mean Mega Latias is a stand-alone threat that can cover all (and I mean, literally, all) Pokemon in the entire UU metagame?

Of course, win conditions require support, no matter how much degrees of support such win condition needs depending on the Pokemon itself, and I see Mega Latias having a hint of (or say, in your case, that much) support to defeat almost any UU team. It seemed that your argument somehow summed up mine...
 
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