np: SM UU Stage 4 - Scary Monsters (Jirachi banned, see post #76)

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#26
Man, lots of broken stuff to look at. Gallade, I think, will be very difficult to deal with, but I'm trying to decide if Cross will play a similar role to blastoise, being a powerful tank. It's hard to say just yet, but I do think it'll be a major threat.

I'm not sure Lati will displace its non-Mega self, but it will absolutely be threatening, similar to how suicune is threatening.

Mega Manectric and Rotom are very exciting to me, and help balance out scizor quite a bit by giving more counterplay (not that he was broken).

I love Jirachi, but I'm not sure whether it will stay. If it does, it will be a top-tier threat, and I'm kind of surprised to see it down here (I don't play OU though to be fair). The fact that it could be so many things makes me wonder if it will end up leaving down the line.

Nihilego... I'm not sure. It's good in its own way, but I suspect it'll be a more niche mon. Good speed, hazards and beast boost are all good though, and I could be underestimating it.

I'm so glad to see Veil gone, I was hoping it would be next for a suspect. I could never decide if Lucha was actually broken or not, but I guess I don't have to decide anymore.

Fabio is awesome, but will likely not stay. Manectric, raikou and Rotom wash/cut all give it heavy competition as an electric, and it isn't bulky enough for many of the threats we have, even before the drop. It also doesn't outspeed many common scarfers with its agility set.
 
#27
If anyone wants a brainless balance/offense team
Gardevoir-Mega @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Heracross @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Megahorn
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Stone Edge

Scizor @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Superpower
- Knock Off

Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Iron Head
- Fire Punch
- Healing Wish

Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave
- Dazzling Gleam
- Toxic

Hippowdon @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 232 Def / 28 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Whirlwind
- Slack Off

its pretty easy, break stuff with Gard, or u-turn into gard so it can break stuff. u have 2 scarfers bc gard is slow as shit. also heracross can bluff mega for some fun shenanigans. band scizor to check all the other broken shit, also can do some turn-turn with jirachi. Klefki also serves as emergency check to shit, i used special to make the matchup vs rotom and opposing gard better, phys def probs works too. Hippowdown to kinda check physical threats (aka scarf darm) i was using against lower suspect ladder where there was a lot of scarf darm so i ran more defense but ideally u run more spdef for raikou/manectric. whirlwind over toxic bc setup is scary but toxic is nice for chipping rotom.

this team is pretty weak to rotom and scarf darmanitan lol, and like a fast hydro pump if that existed in this tier.
you could probs replace hera with your own scarf darm, but u become way weaker to rotom and like mega latias. u-turn is always nice on a team like that

i had taunt over will-o-wisp but faced 0 stall on suspect ladder but taunt would be better imo. WoW is nice for gliscors and Rachi on the switch, u could probs replace HP fire for it.

REGARDLESS MEGA GARDE IS THE REAL BROKEN THREAT Y'ALL BE SLEEPING
 

Hilomilo

High-low My-low
is a Contributor to Smogon
#28
The meta's experienced a lot of changes, but after playing a good amount of games and encountering each new threat bar Mega Ampharos at least 4 or 5 times, I've definitely noticed that a lot of notable changes are occurring. Specifically, there are a few Pokemon that are beginning to increase in viability, whereas the opposite is happening for others. Here are some of the things I've noticed so far.

Things that have gotten better

Infernape

I've been fairly biased in favor of Infernape for the entirety of the metagame, though I genuinely think that it has a lot of worth as an offensive check to a ton of newly introduced threats. It can apply heavy offensive pressure to Nihilego and Mega Gardevoir due to its fantastic Speed tier, and is also capable of revenge killing Z-Happy Hour Jirachi and Mega Manectric with the Choice Scarf set. It's also fully capable of taking on a ton of Pokemon that are on the rise, including Scizor (which is only getting better), Doublade, Weavile, and both Heracross formes. Furthermore, U-turn allows it to form a fantastic VoltTurn core with Rotom-W, as the two cover each other's weaknesses extremely well. Overall, Infernape's excelled in the few days that our recent drops have been legal as a great offensive check to both the recent drops and some things that have gotten better due to the drops.

Doublade
Doublade's lack of recovery continues to really hurt it at times, though its typing and amazing physical bulk more than make up for it against new and extremely threatening Pokemon in Mega Altaria, Mega Gardevoir, Nihilego, Mega Latias, and Jirachi. The ability to check five of what are now the most seen Pokemon in the metagame speaks for itself, though Doublade also puts in some serious work as a standalone sweeper nowadays due to the offensive nature of the current metagame. For what it's worth, Doublade also does a really nice job holding its own against both Mega Heracross and Mega Gallade, though I'm not sure that that'll be too much of a necessary trait in about a week lol.

Klefki
As I said to A Cake Wearing A Hat, Klefki is absolute flames in this new meta. It functions as arguably the most reliable check to both Mega Latias and Mega Gardevoir due to its ability to tank any of their common coverage attacks and retaliate with Toxic or Thunder Wave, and can also do a great job checking other new threats, like Nihilego, Mega Altaria, and Jirachi, albeit a little less reliably. It also smacks defensive Rotom-W with Toxic, and is a key component to Spikes HO and the rising strategy of hazard stacking. Just a super solid mon right now that's really hard to fault given how much it can provide teams with.

Magneton
I've always liked this thing, and find it quite unfortunate that it's been falling off as of late. Fortunately for Magneton, it does a great job as a teammate to a majority of the new Pokemon introduced, notably Nihilego, Mega Latias, Mega Gardevoir, Jirachi, and Mega Altaria. All of these Pokemon dislike the rise in Steel-types that deal with them, like Mega Aggron, Empoleon, and Klefki, and Magneton is fully capable of either weakening or flat out removing Steel-type foes from play, and overall easily paving way for a sweep of one of many teammates. It's also worth noting that Magneton does a really great job supporting a lot of other threats that are pretty influential right now, like Weavile, Mega Pidgeot, Mega Aerodactyl, and Beedrill. While its frailty hurts it a lot form time to time, it's just improved so much as a really useful partner to a lot of amazing Pokemon, and definitely deserves to bounce back into relevance.

Alongside these Pokemon, I think that Scizor, Cobalion, and Weavile all got quite a bit better upon this shift, though I think those are more popular opinions and that the above mentioned mons really deserve recognition as things that are really worth giving a try in this metagame.

Things that have gotten worse

Rotom-C

I was pushing for a rise for this guy in the VR just a few days ago, but with the drop of Rotom-W came a Pokemon that almost entirely outclasses it. Unlike Mowtom, Rotom-W doesn't require a Z-move or Hidden Power coverage to hit Pokemon like Gliscor, Hippowdon, and Mega Steelix hard, and can instead just click Hydro Pump, a move that doesn't lower Special Attack, to nail both these threats and a wider variety of foes, including Heracross, Scizor, and Nihilego. What's worse is that Rotom-W can also run a perfectly viable defensive set in contrast to Rotom-C, which further increases its overall viability over the poor lawnmower. As much as I love it, this thing's really going to have to bank on the few things that Bloom Doom can hit hard than Hydro Vortex to maintain any sort of viability, and it also doesn't help that it's more or less setup bait for things like Mega Altaria and Mega Latias.

Celebi
This one also hurts my heart, but unless it's running Thunder Wave or Earth Power, Celebi really doesn't have anything to deal with the likes of Mega Altaria, Mega Latias, or Jirachi. It's also revenge killed easily by Nihilego and Mega Manectric (due to its Fire coverage), and can only really use its ability to check Rotom-W, which can either run Signal Beam or just Volt Switch away from it, as justification as to why it shouldn't be considered worse in the new meta. The influx of Steel-types and Pokemon like Weavile and Infernape also isn't helpful for poor Celebi, but hey, with a good amount of utility options at its disposal, who knows whether or not it'll adapt.

Thanks to everything that read this whole thing for reading, and I hope you enjoyed it and agreed with the opinions I presented! :) I'd also like to celebrate the fact that this is my 300th post on smogon, so here are some people that I'd like to acknowledge for making me love being a member of this site:

palkia246 you're a badass that isn't afraid to speak his mine, and you're also my cousin so I guess that's cool. Awesome that we can talk about Smogon-related issues together, and I hope you continue to contribute to the site with analyses, which you and I have talked about quite a bit lately.

Xayah you've always been one of the easiest people to work with, and getting onto LC QC and receiving Ladybugs around the same time was really cool. Overall you're easily one of my best friends on this site and I've never had a dull moment in talking with you about anything ranging from LCPL drama to me being high during that Bronzor check ;) thanks a lot buddy.

eht I feel like we've learned a lot about each other recently, and you've just been an extremely good friend and very pleasant to speak with. I've learned a lot about things both related and unrelated to Pokemon thanks to you, and greatly appreciate that whenever something irrationally pisses me off I can talk with you about it ;) thanks so much Samantha (forever a fabulous name).

Drew Gummy Corporal Levi ItzViper482 Jox rssp1 sam-testings Elec. PD Plas You guys have all been wonderful friends and/or mentors to me in LC, and while I may not be as involved in the community as I used to be, I really miss talking with you guys and hope to bounce back into the tier again. All of you have been great friends that I've never had any problems with, and are definitely part of the reason I'll always think of LC as one of the tiers I feel the most at home in (also special shoutout to rssp1 for watching survivor).

Panther-T Highways pokemon sparrow MasterAmpharos A Cake Wearing A Hat You guys have all been wonderful friends to me in the UU community, and while two of you are no longer active, I still feel like it's important to mention you here since you guys have been some of the easiest for me to talk to. Whether it was talking to you guys about posts I had planned (which was extremely helpful) or sharing opinions on a plethora of different Pokemon in UU, I've never disliked talking with any of you and definitely feel as though part of why I've become more confident in my capabilities as a UU player is thanks to you all.

Colonel M Rakan Nuked Vertex Martin Leo I've met all of you guys primarily through C&C work, and I'm so glad that I've been able to learn from you all and have really good conversations (or sometimes just venting sessions lol). You guys from the OU C&C room are true memelords (and Vertex you're a fucking savage) and Rakan, I feel like I've learned a lot about both RU and some things unrelated to Pokemon thanks to you (let's forget about that 'question' I had to relay to you not long ago lmao). You people are all hilarious and very easy to talk with, and I can't go without acknowledging any of you since you've all made my analysis writing, which is most of what I do on Smogon, extremely entertaining and refreshing.

Thanks to all of you people for helping me get to 300. Sorry I got all sentimental and shit but I really appreciate how cool of internet strangers y'all are :P hope we can all continue to enjoy our times here at Smogon. Thanks again friends :) (and sorry if I totally forgot somebody, which I'm positive that I did so lemme know if you feel excluded)


Also ban Mega Gallade, shit's busted as fuck.
 
#29
Now that I've played quite some games, I would like to give a word on every single drop we got about 1 weeks ago.

Gallade-Mega
This Pokemon is for sure the top #1 threat we got. It's just too fast for a Pokemon that has that much Attack and has a pretty good natural bulk (68-95-115) which means that it can takes a few hits before dying. It has a great Movepool with Swords Dance, Close Combat, Drain Punch, Zen Headbutt, Ice Punch, Knock Off, Bulk Up, Shadow Sneak etc.. and can easily break through the walls in Underused while being able to Revenge Kill some fast Sweeper. I trully think Gallade-Mega is too much for the tier and if I get the reqs i'm going to vote ban.

Heracross-Mega
For this one, I'm clearly on the fence. Of course this thing can hits like a truck everything which is slower than it but the fact that it loses some speed while Mega-Evolving kinda sucks because it gets outspeed by some threats like Togekiss, non-scarf Chandelure, Altaria-Mega, Blastoise-Mega, Mamoswine, Nidoking and VinCune etc.. Unlike Conkeldurr which had some way of recovery with Drain Punch and a priority with Mach Punch to threatened fast Pokémon, Heracross-Mega can just break slow Pokemon. Tbh, I think Heracross-Mega's best set is this one :

Heracross-Mega @ Heracronite
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature / Adamant Nature
- Pin Missile
- Close Combat
- Rock Blast
- Bullet Seed / Substitute / Swords Dance

Tbh Bullet Seed is one of the best option for Heracross-Mega cuz' it permits it to put a lot of pressure on all the Bulky Water in Underused. But since it's a Slow and fat Sweeper idk if it's ban worthy. So... I'm still in full reflection for this Pokemon.

Gardevoir-Mega
Gallade's Waifu is almost so threatening than Gallade-Mega. Basically this Pokemon has no real counter. It can wallbreak thanks to Pixilate Hyper Voice and it's amazing SpA BS of 165 + Psyshock whichs allows it to take care of Blissey. Even Steel Type like Bulky Scizor, SpD Jirachi or Empoleon can be shut down with HP [Fire] / Shadow Ball / Focus Blast or cripple by WoW. I trully think this Pokemon need to be studied deeply cuz' it's a freaking real threat than can almost claim a K.O. everytime it attacks. Thanks to is typing, it can provide a decent Dragon / Psychic / Fighting check.

Gardevoir-Mega @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Hyper Voice
- Will-O-Wisp / Calm Mind / Shadow Ball / Focus Blast / Hidden Power [Fire]
- Taunt / Calm Mind / Shadow Ball / Focus Blast / Hidden Power [Fire]

Latias-Mega
And here it comes an another annoying threat : Latias-Mega. Basically this Pokemon is played in the same way that it was in OU : a Bulky Calm Minder with Stored Power. Thanks to is amazing bulk, Latias-Mega can easily set-up on a lot of Pokemon (like all the Bulky Water in the tier). Because of it, I've seen people playing Weavile with Darkinium Z (Z-Knock Off) or Icium Z (Z-Icicle Crash) to ensure the OHKO on this thing which can be very deadly when it's set-up. On the other hand, we have a lot of Dark Type / Steel Type (hello Jirachi) which can check or counter Latias-Mega but still, it's necessary to not underestimated this Pokemon cuz' once it's set-up, it's kinda the end.

Latias-Mega (F) @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Substitute / Refresh / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt / Dragon Pulse
- Stored Power

Jirachi

I've seen a lot of people complaining about Jirachi, saying it's a broken Pokemon and I strongly disagree with that. Personnaly, I think Jirachi is like Clefable : a splashable Pokemon which can fit in almost every playstyle while doing almost everything you need. It clearly a S rank material Pokemon ; thanks to is typing, stats and Movepool it can provide a lot of function : Revenge Killer with Choice Scarf, Support with Stealth Rock and/or Wish + Protect, Set-up Sweeper with Z-Happy Hour or Calm Mind, Lure with Expert Belt etc.. and it checks a lot of Pokemon in the tier (Gardevoir-Mega, both Latias and Latias-Mega, Altaria-Mega, Nihilego, Celebi etc..). Tbh I think this Pokemon is healthy for the tier.

Manectric-Mega
Volt-Turn are right now a really good and powerful playstyle and Manectric-Mega is one of the best abuser of Volt-Turn. Thanks to is greats SpA and Speed it can Revenge Kill a lot of Pokemon while providing a very fast Volt-Turn. It's coverage Electric + Ice + Fire is really really good and Intimidate is a very useful ability. Definitively a good Pokemon which is going to stay UU imo.

Manectric-Mega @ Manectite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Flamethrower / Overheat
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Hidden Power [Grass]

Altaria-Mega
Well, this thing is in my opinion one of the most underrated threat in the shift. I've seen on the Viability Ranking people talking about a B- rank for Altaria-Mega and tbh I have been shocked. Tbh Altaria-Mega is an amazing Pokemon with great natural Bulk and typing, great Movepool and an amazing ability. Even if it needs +2 Speed to outspeed almost every Scarf in the tier, it clearly hits like a truck. Fairy STAB + Ground Coverage with Earthquake hits a huge majority of the tier and in late game, Altaria-Mega can pretty safely set-up and clean. Really cool 'mon, just try it !

Altaria-Mega @ Altarianite
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Return
- Earthquake

Ampharos-Mega
I love that Pokemon but the metagame is clearly not in is favor for sure. If the majority of the recent shift stay in Underused, I guess Ampharos-Mega will drop in RU..

Smeargle
Smeargle is not the Pokemon of the year but it can be useful. It provides Sr + Sticky Web which can be good (particularly with Gardevoir-Mega). Don't have much to say about it. A decent Pokemon overall.

Smeargle @ Focus Sash
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Sticky Web
- Mirror Coat
- Spore / Nuzzle / Filler

Rotom-Wash
I would never imagine we will get one day Rotom-Wash but now it the case and omg this Pokemon is so good. Amazing typing + ability and a good Movepool. Is clearly a great option for balanced team. Like Smeargle, I don't have a lot to say about it but it's clearly an excellent Pokemon.

Nihilego
Finnaly our last drop. Definitively not broken cuz' there is a lot of Steel type in UU and Nihilego struggle vs them. I've seen Scarf / Specs in action and they were both good. I guess Sr / Toxic Spikes setters can be good too as well as lure with Z-Move (like Z-Thunderbolt which is pretty nice).


Well that's all. The metagame has changed a lot and some Pokemon I've been better or worse (aka Scizor which is amazing right now). I think UU will need some times before stabilizing. I'm pressed to see how's that will evolve ! Thanks for reading and sry for english mistakes :v
 
#30
agreed with u mostly up until

"Tbh I think this Pokemon [jirachi] is healthy for the tier."

60% flinches with iron head is def not healthy for the tier. despite a lot of popular mons resisting iron head, the ability to cheese through so many checks/counters solely relying on luck is pretty dumb. like a lot of mons u 3KO or 2KO only need like one flinch and they just lose. also the immense number of different sets it can run is imo a bit unhealthy for the tier, as a lot of them do completely different things and require different kinds of counterplay.
 
#31
agreed with u mostly up until

"Tbh I think this Pokemon [jirachi] is healthy for the tier."

60% flinches with iron head is def not healthy for the tier. despite a lot of popular mons resisting iron head, the ability to cheese through so many checks/counters solely relying on luck is pretty dumb. like a lot of mons u 3KO or 2KO only need like one flinch and they just lose. also the immense number of different sets it can run is imo a bit unhealthy for the tier, as a lot of them do completely different things and require different kinds of counterplay.

Agreed, as much as I love Jirachi, the one thing that pushes it from S-tier mon for being able to run a bunch of sets well is iron head. Flinches are extremely powerful, and combined with its versatility, makes it something that probably shouldn't stay in the tier.
 
#32

The comparison between Jirachi and Clefable is useful in elucidating the roles of what are complex Pokemon. I agree with the idea that Jirachi is highly versatile and able to fit on all play styles. Additionally, I am sympathetic to the sentiment that Jirachi is needed on many teams to check a great deal of highly relevant threats such as Gardevoir Mega, Latias, Latias Mega and Altaria Mega (to some extent at least). There is very clearly a preponderance of threats in the metagame and having a Pokemon that checks so many Pokemon and roles off the threat list and team building compendium respectively is incredibly freeing to build with and valuable to play with.

Which brings me back to the Clefable comparison, all of this was true in the also very threat filled metagame Clefable was present in (before Gengar/Bisharp/Clefable rise) - Clefable also helped with teambuilding constraints by checking many Pokemon and filling many roles. Leaving aside that some people wanted Clefable banned as well, I would argue that Jirachi has at least 3 traits distinct from Clefable that push it into the not just suspect territory, but clearly broken territory:

  1. Jirachi can sweep teams with Z Happy Hour. Clefable never really had this opportunity because it was too slow and while its power was close to or even in excess of Jirachi's power after a boost, it could never pose the same threat to offensive teams that Jirachi does. Jirachi also has the opportunity to abuse it's mixed power and greater coverage to choose what counters it - while CM Clefable could always be stopped by Unaware Clefable, Nidoking, Entei, Metagross, and other threats, Jirachi has almost no universal counter to this single set, that means we are not even considering other sets yet of which Jirachi can run many.
  2. Jirachi has no counters. This is very similar to the last sentence in the first bullet point, but unlike Clefable, Jirachi has no counters because of its much better stats which include bulk, speed, and power, as well as its coverage.
  3. Jirachi can make games uncompetitive. This is a very strong claim so I'll first say that even without this point, I think Jirachi should be banned. But the moderately high and almost reliable flinch rate of Iron Head (60%) combined with the coverage to kill or badly dent all Steel resistances contributes to Jirachi's banworthiness because of a point made earlier, plenty of Pokemon need just one flinch and they end up losing. Examples include Crawdaunt, Mamoswine and Nidoking - all highly relevant Pokemon in the metagame.
Finally, I'll mention that I am highly skeptical of the argument that Jirachi is healthy for the tier because it checks a wide array of threats. Yes one interpretation is that Jirachi is acting as a glue (although not a very good one seeing how the metagame is pretty volatile). You can also interpret it as Jirachi is just over powered and beats too many threats. I am under the impression that tiering should be done based on a Pokemon's power levels and if it's too strong for the metagame, not whether they contribute to a "healthy" metagame.

As for the actual suspects, Heracross Mega I am pretty torn on. I don't think the metagame is very kind to it right now, although on this I could be wrong, but even so that doesn't change the fundamentals that it breaks the overwhelming majority of walls.

Gallade I am pretty firmly in the belief it is broken. It's a lot like Terrakion, without most of the weaknesses and just enough power and coverage to not need the item to wall break, let alone sweep.

Here are some replays that demonstrate how it can be broken in the metagame:
  • http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-630488597 With strong priority and a couple Fighting checks/counters in Gliscor and Amoonguss, you would expect Gallade Mega not to do major damage. Even the critical hit on Gliscor was probably not needed since by then Gallade Mega did enough damage (and Amoonguss being unable to check Gallade Mega highlights the usefulness of the Psychic STAB)
  • http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-630485274 Gallade Mega does work both in the early game nabbing a KO on Metagross as well as late game where it gets an essential OHKO on Mandibuzz that was threatening to wall my entire team as Rotom-W's Volt Switch would not do enough. Additionally, the threat of a Gallade Mega sweep the entire game had to make my opponent play somewhat more cautiously
  • http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-629765686 Obviously with both sides using Gallade Mega, Gallade Mega has to be on the winnign and losing side. But on both sides, it put an incredible amount of work - for me, it let me do big dmage early game to Doublade and remove Sylveon's Leftovers, while for my opponent, it could have just won him the game at the end if they did not choke and sack it for some reason on turn 23 (at 81%, it could still tank a CB Bullet Punch or Scarf Flare Blitz)
If you want to see my team I used: http://pokepast.es/0dc16c49baafbddf
 
#33
I think people didn't understand my meaning of "healthy", I'm sorry If I badly expressed my point of view.
I see Jirachi as a healthy Pokemon because without it there is some much threats like Gardevoir-Mega / Latias-Mega which absolutely nuke the tier. But I agree that Jirachi is a huge threat cuz' it's pretty unpredictable and IronFlinch allways sucks.
 
#34
TBH I don't post much at all (if my post count says anything) and uu isn't my main tier, but I feel like the sentiment that "X potentially broken 'mon checks/counters y/z potentially broken 'mon(s)" comes up almost every time a pokemon is suggested to be "broken" or "unhealthy" and I really wish I could stop seeing this mindset because it isn't really "healthy". It means the tier is starting to warp around certain pokemon.

Just because a potentially broken 'mon (in this case Jirachi) is a check to other potentially broken 'mons (Mega Garde / Mega Lati) doesn't make the potentially broken 'mon any less broken. In fact that might mean all 3 should be looked at to be suspected / banned. If something is hurting the tier it gets suspected and or banned, no matter what it checks/counters.

I'm not suggesting Rachi, Mega Garde, or Mega Lati deserve a suspect/ban. Again, UU isn't my main meta so I have no dog in this fight. I just felt the need to add something because it's starting to get really old and repetitive seeing the same arguments made, just with different pokemon.

((Quick addition: I don't mean to be harsh while saying this. I can understand the reasoning, and in fact had that reasoning myself at one point. But you also have to realize that a tier will continue to suspect/ban things until the council and its players feel the tier is balanced. Mega Garde/Lati could very well blow up the tier with Rachi gone. But that doesn't mean they won't get the spotlight pointed at them if deemed worthy. The end goal is balance, and broken things checking broken things isn't balance, it's centralization.))

/lurk mode re-activated
 
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#35
I think people didn't understand my meaning of "healthy", I'm sorry If I badly expressed my point of view.
I see Jirachi as a healthy Pokemon because without it there is some much threats like Gardevoir-Mega / Latias-Mega which absolutely nuke the tier. But I agree that Jirachi is a huge threat cuz' it's pretty unpredictable and IronFlinch allways sucks.
You don't need to apologize for your opinion and you didn't badly express anything; it was totally valid and I really appreciate the Clefable comparison because it gave me something concrete to work with/type about.
 
#36
The underused tier has changed drastically since the last drops and the metagame has adapted to follow suit. I've been playing on the suspect ladder for quite a bit now, and am convinced that M-Gallade is broken in the UU tier. However, it has become clear that M-Heracross has been overshadowed by faster threats in this hyper-offensive metagame. "Big threats" that most players should now be aware of include: M-Gardevoir, M-Altaria, Jirachi and M-Latias; they are simply faster than M-Heracross and are able to deal significant damage to M-Heracross before it is able to retaliate effectively. Furthermore, M-Gallade has been the superior pick over M-Heracross in almost every situation, due to it being faster than each of the aforementioned threats as well as having arguably better typing in order to handle defensive and offensive switch-ins (see: STAB Psychic typing). M-Gallade is able to effectively function as a wall breaker and sweeper in one slot, something that is hard for M-Heracross to emulate with a 75 base Speed stat. That being said M-Heracross certainly has the potential to be a far greater threat in the future should we address emerging and unhealthy metagame standards and not enact a ban during this current suspect.

Currently there's a strong emphasis on heavy offence through wall breaking and volt-turn. Rotom-W has quickly become a UU standard because it synergises so well with many of the big threats, as well as taking on Steel, Ground, Water & Fire types. Emphasising on the "big threats" that define the tier: Steel type Pokemon have become quite prominent for their ability to pressure these Pokemon, for example having either: Jirachi, Scizor or Klefki has almost become a necessary pick. Having Pokemon that can break the volt-turn chain has also become a consideration for a lot of teams; this usually involves picking a strong breaker that is able to defeat the chain before it begins or utilising picks that can take advantage of Rotom-Wash's coverage. Pokemon such as M-Aerodactyl & M-Pidgeot have declined in usage not only because of the inherent poor match up they now have against the rest of the tier; they also must compete for a single mega slot on a team.

To me M-Gallade is the perfect sweeper/wall breaker in UU; its stats, typing and coverage really give it all it needs to break through bulky builds and sweep opposing offence, at +2 M-Gallade really has no switch-ins. On top of its sweeping prowess, M-Gallade is very difficult to revenge KO due to its decent bulk and typing; this could also lead to you losing another Pokemon in the process of removing it from play. In regard to environment, M-Gallade has been put into an advantageous position, in my opinion; it exists above current metagame trends in terms of viability and generally has a very good match up versus most teams. For example, it's able to out pace and break through volt-turn cores, whilst taking advantage of the fact that Steel type Pokemon are almost on every team.

I will most definitely be voting Ban for both M-Gallade and M-Heracross.

I'd also like address one of the most impactful drops: Jirachi. There is no excuse not to use/seriously consider Jirachi on your team in this current meta; whether it be a Scarfer with Healing Wish; Stealth Rocker/Wish Passer; Sub Toxic disrupter or later game cleaner (not a very happy hour for your opponent). Its versatility in combination with its typing and stat spread make it an ideal pick, it's able to switch into significant "big threats" and take them on 1v1. However, Jirachi has the ability to potentially beat all Pokemon 1v1 through the use of a single move in combination with its ability - Iron Head. I believe that Iron Head is what makes Jirachi inherently broken/unhealthy in the tier. A new addition to Jirachi's arsenal this generation is z Happy Hour, this turns Jirachi into an effective mid to late game cleaner, bolstered by the fact that it's in Jirachi's favour to flinch its opponent each turn. Happy Hour gives Jirachi +1 in all stats, after which is can become a powerful attacker with coverage in Iron Head, Fire Punch, Energy Ball/Zen Headbutt. In terms of effective RKO options a Pokemon such as Scarf Infernape must wait until Jirachi is below 80% before it's able to KO it with Flareblitz.

I strongly believe that Jirachi is too good for the UU tier and is worthy of further inspection. Jirachi itself is an effective answer to major threats such as M-Altaria, M-Gardevoir and M-Latias, some of which are arguably already broken in the UU meta. I'm curious to see how the council will respond to metagame trends moving ahead, and I personally look forward to the next few weeks in UU.
 
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Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
#37
Gallade actually has a really interesting typing for an offensive mon in that it has very few weaknesses, and of the three weaknesses it has only Flying is generally used on quick offensive Pokémon, which limits the amount of unconditional revenge killers to a very select group of Pokémon, the majority of which are Megas. Combining this with just the right amount of bulk to avoid KOes from attacks such as Beedrill's Poison Jab, it makes Gallade extremely annoying to deal with as it combines the ability to take and trade vs offensive teams while offering the ability to bust defensive teams wide open, meaning there's never really a matchup in which it's truly useless. The fact that Close Combat is just incredibly spammable only helps its case, but if you were to pick at its flaws, this would also be one of them as a lot of the attacks that just can't quite KO a Gallade at neutral defenses become easy KOes. As a wallbreaker it doesn't find as many opportunities to come in and out as you'd like thanks to the blandness of its typing resistance wise but it definitely finds more opportunities than something like say Mamoswine thanks to the combination of speed and passable bulk. However I think talking about its flaws is being largely pedantic because I just think with how effective it is versus every play style without even needing to change it up its not healthy for the tier in its current state so I will be voting ban on this monster.

I probably played against about 4 Heracross in my time on the suspect ladder, and at least 2 of those were being used by inexperienced players, meaning I didn't really get a fair grasp of how it is in the tier. When I did play vs someone good using it, no doubt it was a huge threat that I was hard pressed to switch into, but by the same stretch I don't think I ever felt like it was overbearing vs me. Granted this is most probably because I was using offense, which I think says a lot about Heracross's placement in the tier. I don't think it's very well suited to this current metagame, but I can't ignore the fact that there is virtually no defensive response it can't circumvent if it takes it upon itself to do so. I'm not sure about this Pokémon, which generally leads me to vote no ban, but I will test this more over the rest of the duration of the suspect and come to more of a defined opinion.

Obligatory fuck rachi.
 
#38
I just wanna say I made that long post on banning rachi before this game http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-630941711

Yes I'm aware one game isn't the end of the world, but a point not mentioned yet is Jirachi's chance to get about 9 flinches in a row 1% of the time. Normally those probabilities in Pokémon are associated with maybe wasting two turns because of two Zen Headbutt misses - game changing perhaps but not game making (as in it won't guarantee a result). Jirachi has that same 1% probability but instead of gettin 2 free turns, it probably ends up destroying 2 or 3 Pokémon with 9 flinches.

Again, I don't think we even need the uncompetiveness factor to ban or suspect Jirachi, but this type of analysis for Jirachi's probability hasn't been stated yet (afaik) so I thought I should add it.
 
#39
Well, I certainly picked an interesting time to come back from the dead (PSA to the folks in school, especially college: Enjoy that shit, adulting sucks)

I'm not sure if I'll have enough time to play test all of the new toys and get reqs to vote on the current suspect (again, adulting sucks), I'll try to add my two cents about each new poke as time goes. As for the current suspect, I'm going off of my knowledge of the meta before the most recent tier changes, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

1. Mega-Gallade
Mega-Gallade has absolutely no business in UU. Its STAB combinations and high speed tier give it favorable matchups against Stall, Balance, and Offense. It's been stated quite a few times throughout this thread that it has no counters and that is undeniable true; however, I've stated before that I think that no counterplay is a stronger argument than no counters. That being said, the only real counterplay against The Fierce Diety is to status it (which any player worth his salt will do his best to keep from happening) or revenge kill it, which in of itself draws from a very limited pool. The only things that serve as an offensive CHECK are two of its rival megas, BirdJeezus and Ridley, and a small pool of scarfers that have a decent chance to OHKO back, such as Darmanitan and Chandelure (see calcs below). And again, these are CHECKS that can only come in on a slow-turn or revenge kill, as even the rival flying megas can be killed by a neutral CC before rocks and are guaranteed dead with them (also see calcs below). Other potential checks such as scarf dreigon, LO latias risking a speed tie, and Mega Shark fall short of the KO either completely or with near certainty and are KO'd back by CC or Knock Off (latias and sharpedo calcs are shown below)

Checks that can work
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gallade-Mega: 280-330 (101 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gallade-Mega: 254-300 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Gallade-Mega Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 268-316 (89 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Gallade-Mega Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pidgeot-Mega: 282-333 (91.8 - 108.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Checks that don't work w/o prior damage
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gallade-Mega: 218-257 (78.7 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs.
252 Atk Gallade-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 276-326 (91.3 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo-Mega Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gallade-Mega: 237-279 (85.5 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

This I feel constitutes a solid no/limited counterplay argument and therefore I would lean towards BAN for M-Gallade

2. Mega-Heracross
This one I feel I would need to use a bit more in practice before I make a solid call (I'll edit this post if I find the time to do so). As it stands now, based on calcs and theory-mon analysis M-Heracross, like M-Gallade, has no viable counters in the tier (depending on whether it has Bullet Seed or Rock Blast as its coverage option, though I'd imagine Rock Blast would be the more reliable option generally speaking, as Pin Missile can dent quagsire and alomamola enough that bullet seed isn't strictly necessary):

252+ Atk Heracross-Mega Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 255-300 (53 - 62.3%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Heracross-Mega Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 240-285 (60.9 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

However, unlike M-Gallade, its reduced speed tier and typing make it more susceptible to being revenge killed or inflicted with status by comparison, putting me a bit more on the fence with this one (again, if I get the chance to play with it a bit I'll come back with a more solid argument).

Cheers bros, it's good to be back
 
#40
I just wanna say I made that long post on banning rachi before this game http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-630941711

Yes I'm aware one game isn't the end of the world, but a point not mentioned yet is Jirachi's chance to get about 9 flinches in a row 1% of the time. Normally those probabilities in Pokémon are associated with maybe wasting two turns because of two Zen Headbutt misses - game changing perhaps but not game making (as in it won't guarantee a result). Jirachi has that same 1% probability but instead of gettin 2 free turns, it probably ends up destroying 2 or 3 Pokémon with 9 flinches.

Again, I don't think we even need the uncompetiveness factor to ban or suspect Jirachi, but this type of analysis for Jirachi's probability hasn't been stated yet (afaik) so I thought I should add it.
i mean u had a rotom which 100% checked the jirachi like why didn't u go into that on the fire punch pivot instead of hydreigon? also pivoting with manectric for more intimidates. i swear u have the weirdest replays

edit: ya usually the third move is either icy wind or energy ball but still, pivoting around is one of the ways to play vs it. obviously jirachi is broken af and should be suspected/banned next but i just find the replays weird lol


on another note, while mega hera isn't the most popular choice in terms of fun strong megas to use rn, if(when) mega gallade gets banned and mega garde soon after, mega hera might finally be able to shine and it'll def shine. its bulk and power definitely outweigh the cons of its speed, especially if paired with like sticky web or even if u just use sub on like opposing fortress or something to get free hits. sylveon can kinda wall it,
252+ Atk Heracross-Mega Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 190-225 (48.2 - 57.1%)
252+ Atk Heracross-Mega Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 140-165 (35.5 - 41.8%)
but only if it switches in on a sub or pin missile

it might survive one round of suspecting but i cant see it staying much longer than that
 
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Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
#41
The most common set people run on that Rachi utilises E Ball as the third move, which means Rotom fails to answer. That said it would have got a burn off which would have given Hydreigon etc. more opportunities to break through the flinching and if nothing else build up some residual. I think the point to note here rather than dissecting the plays made so thoroughly is to consider how pif has a solid offensive team, plenty of offensive pressure and the means to check the majority of the metagame offensively, but this team was dismantled by an opponent who really didn't utilise any skill in using this Jirachi set. There was no concept of weakening Pokémon such as Hydreigon and Manectric which eat hits from this Jirachi set and threaten it back, but instead due to turning the game into an entirely luck based event it was able to bypass these Pokémon. This is unique to Jirachi mostly, as Togekiss doesn't have the speed to sweep anything but a stall team. It's important to define that in any interaction where a Pokémon has the potential to sweep, there can be luck involved, crits, flinches freezes etc. but these are usually limited to low percentage chances. Jirachi however has a much higher luck threshold which turns games into what does the rng generator have for me today. I think this Jirachi set particularly takes advantage of the current metagame state where teams like pifs are becoming more common, as it means some of the bulkier phazers that have better odds against Jirachi (i.e. Don't get 2HKOed by boosted Iron Head) aren't as viable right now. I don't think this argument alone is nearly enough to justify banning Jirachi, but I think it adds another layer to what is an extremely diverse and imo controversial Pokémon in this metagame.
 
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#42
propping up the anti-rachi movement, I'd like to attach some replays showcasing how effective Jirachi is with z Happy Hour. It really makes the game uncompetitive and boring, it's already become quite a stale meta when I know that picking Jirachi will give me such a great advantage; whilst I fear facing opposing Jirachi for this reason.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-630419815 - whittle the Rotom-W and Jirachi wins.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-630513763 - once effective switch-ins to Jirachi have been sufficiently handled, Jirachi wins (also showcasing Jirachi 1v1 Gliscor).
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-630863088 - Jirachi sweeps after Rotom-W is put into range of Energy Ball.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-630865919 - Beginning of the game I focussed on setting rocks, thereafter Jirachi won.

Other reasons that make zHH Jirachi so good: it cannot be taunted, it becomes very difficult to RKO once it has +1 in both defences, it has very limited checks and counters which are hindered by a 60% chance of not moving.
252 Atk Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 166-196 (48.6 - 57.4%)
+1 252 Atk Jirachi Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mienshao: 492-578 (181.5 - 213.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 224-266 (65.6 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Jirachi Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Infernape: 432-510 (147.4 - 174%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 130-154 (38.1 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 180 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 336-396 (103.7 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo-Mega Crunch vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 276-326 (80.9 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 76 SpA Jirachi Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Sharpedo-Mega: 294-348 (104.6 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
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Yoshizilla315

Tournament Banned
#43
Reposting due to a misunderstanding from sparrow lol

While a lot of people are talking about Z-Happy Hour, which is certainly a great set, I think we're underestimating some of the other sets, and the one I'm talking about today is Choice Scarf.

Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- U-turn
- Thunder Punch / Fire Punch / Ice Punch
- Healing Wish

The most annoying thing about this set is it's ability to pivot around successfully a lot of the time. A lot of the bulkier Jirachi sets, and Z-Happy Hour, are unable to do this either because of speed, or the lack of U-Turn. Having a fast U-Turn allows lots of chip, as well as you being able to avoid anything that doesn't get spammed by Iron Head, mainly Steel types. However, thanks to Jirachi's plethora of a move pool, you can run Fire Punch for things like Scizor, but you still don't hit Mega Steelix and such.

While we're at that, Thunder Punch is mainly for Mantine if you can't get around for electric coverage, but Mantine isn't as common thanks to the addition of Rotom-Wash. Not only is Thunder Punch for Mantine though, it can also be used against bulky waters in a last case scenario. Ice Punch hits Mega Latias without having to switch (because of the effects of U-Turn), as well as getting off damage on ground types as well, like Gliscor.

You may notice I never say "kill" or "beat" because the idea of this set isn't to take lives, it's to merely cripple Pokemon for Jirachi's other teammates. What if one of your teammates are crippled though? Jirachi can run Healing Wish to bring them back up to full. This is especially useful if you accidentally let your Sharpedo get paralyzed, your Mega Latias toxic'd, or your Scizor burned. It's also useful in the sense that it takes you back to full health, which is also useful in emergency situations where a wincon may die to rocks.

I don't think I have to explain what Iron Head does, so:
tldr; Jirachi is annoying plz go away.
 
#44
i mean u had a rotom which 100% checked the jirachi like why didn't u go into that on the fire punch pivot instead of hydreigon? also pivoting with manectric for more intimidates. i swear u have the weirdest replays

edit: ya usually the third move is either icy wind or energy ball but still, pivoting around is one of the ways to play vs it. obviously jirachi is broken af and should be suspected/banned next but i just find the replays weird lol
Yep you're correct I thought it was "standard" (not sure if there is a standard Z Happy Hour set) Energy Ball set. And pivoting around was what I did actually so I got in a good position with Hydreigon, only to get flinched twice. I generally agree I should have tried to Intimidate it at least 1 more time, but since I was working with the assumption they were using Energy Ball, I didn't want to go to Manectric when Gliscor was low on 4 & 5 or risk getting mauled by Energy Ball and then able to Intimdate only once (not yet Mega evolved). On turns 7 & 8 I could have improved my play by pivoting on what were pretty clearly going to be Iron Heads. Additionally, getting one more Intimidate before risking another double flinch on Hydreigon, even working on the assumption of Energy Ball, on turn 11 would have turned the Iron Head 3HKO into a 4HKO so he would need a triple flinch. However this had the major downside of forfeiting my Manectric, which was obviously extremely useful against their team. I think it was pretty reasonable to not immediately sacrifice it.

With this review and analysis in mind, it's pretty clear my play was not optimal (on turn 7 and 8) but also that takes little away from the fact Jirachi managed to set up turn 2 and poke huge holes in a team with "counters" purely through Iron Head flinches.

Regardless, the larger point remains that Jirachi's hax is much worse than what the metagame is accustomed to, again, 1% probabilities usually means Hydro Pump missing three times or Zen Headbutt missing twice, not 9 Iron Head flinches in a row.

I think the thing "weird" you found about the replays may be how I started off so strongly on turn 1, but on turn 2 a sweep was attempted before traditional preparations (weaken counters, set up hazards, Toxic a bulky water) but still ended up working through not so improbable hax.

Lastly, I would mention Energy Ball really is optimal so it was natural to think the opponent had it; Thunder Punch hits Mantine, Volcanion, Tentacruel and Empoleon, while Energy Ball hits a larger number of more relevant threats in Swampert, Gastrodon, Quagsire, Rotom-Wash, Krookodile, Hippowdown, and Manectric Mega.
 

dingbat

ban all garden sneks
is a Tiering Contributor
#45
A quick rant about my "best friend" Jirachi

Remember when we (yes I was part of the council so yes I'm technically partially at fault) had Rachi, Mega Alakazam, and Zygarde were allowed in ORAS UU? Good times I tell you.

Ever since Rachi entered this tier again, I've been continually bitching about how aids this piece of shit is, and lone behold, nothing has changed about it for the better. And every time I see someone click Happy Hour and/or flinch an entire team lacking this item called Rocky Helmet to death, I just want to run myself up a fucking wall because we all know damn clearly how "well trained" Rachi is haha. Even my cat could puke at the thought of teambuilding in this meta because of how damn stale and aids it is with Rachi in it.

I know banning Rachi will cause a lot of ripple effect on this meta because other dumb shit like Mega Gardevoir is in this tier but pls for the love of God erase this piece of shit eternally, cremate it in a kiln, feed it to some hungry piranhas, shove it into the hydraulic press at my university, drop some plutonium bomb on it, whatever fits the damn bill

Just fucking get rid of it
 
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#46
Well I change my mind. I failed to achieve the COIL, I'm fed up of this new Metagame which is absolute pure trash. I've trully never been so disgusted of UU.



Jirachi same case. It's unhealthy as hell, I mean, it's brainless, you just have to flinch do the death the oppo team.
The Z-Happy Hour is the worst to face, it can be Physical, Special or Mixed and it's barely impossible to deal with. I've seen people running Shadow Ball everywhere just to take care of this thing (Latias, Celebi etc..). Tbh Jirachi Z-Happy Hour is the same problem that Z-Hypnosis Xurkitree : an amazing brainless win con which is barely impossible to counter since it can change is moveset. It's just too versatile, too bulky...

Tbh right now, UU is trully disgusting. I beg the UU council to do something at the end of Gallade-Mega/Heracross-Mega suspect test because during this few days/weeks, it's clear that there is some Pokemon which are clearly too powerful for the tier. Idk if it's possible to do a council vote (like when it was the Clefable Metagame) because if we need to do public suspect test for every broken Pokemon we have in the tier, UU is gonna stay for a while a shitty tier.

tl;dr : Ban Jirachi / Ban Gardevoir-Mega ;_;
 
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#47
Yeah, Rachi is downright uncompetitive Imo. Yoshizilla sniped me with the scarf set, which imo is as much if, if not more of a problem than Z-Happy. Outspeed almost every month and having a 36% chance to get a free kill without allowing for retaliation is uncompetitive Imo, as it reduces counterplay to sheer luck. If it can't do enough damage, it just pivots and gets chip damage on it. A Mon that outspeeds the majority of the meta and prevents skill-based counterplay is uncompetitive. In addition, it's extraordinarily versatile while still adding the RNG factor to every match, which makes the already limited counterplay set dependant. This thing chokes the meta. Can we do a council vote on this? Or must it be a suspect? Either way, Rachi needs to go.
 

Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
UU Leader
#48
Been a while since I've posted here, so I thought I'd give some of my impressions of the meta as a whole...

Starting with the suspect, in a completely unsurprising turn of events, Gallade-Mega appears to be just as broken in practice as it appeared to be on paper. It has just the right combination of Speed, power and spammable STABs to threaten offense and fat alike, and it manages to do all this without being a complete glass cannon (it's certainly not bulky by any stretch of the imagination, but it's not nearly as frail as you'd expect of something with those types of offenses). This is a very easy decision for me: I'm going to vote to keep Gallade-Mega BL when the time comes.

As far as Heracross-Mega, I'm honestly not so sure. This is ABSOLUTELY broken on paper, and almost completely invalidates slower defensive teams. In practice, though, I've seen it decent but not actually overwhelming. This may just be a function of the meta itself, though—there's very little stall that I've come across on the ladder, and there are a ton of powerful offensive Fairy and Psychic types that limit Hera's usefulness despite its incredible bulk. That being said, when I laddered with Hera, it consistently put in work and its bulk meant it certainly wasn't dead weight even against more offensive teams. Unfortunately, it seems that not very many people are using it on the ladder, so I haven't really faced it on the opposing team more than a handful of times. Anyhow the jury's still out on this one, and I could easily see myself moving to a ban position (like I said, on paper this thing seems like the most obvious ban decision ever), but as for right now I'm honestly considering voting to unban.

Now, as for the others...

Jirachi - OK, this is difficult to really find a good starting point but I very much disagree with the people that are claiming that Scarf Jirachi is broken. It's certainly annoying and introduces more RNG into games than I might like, but I absolutely do not think it is broken on the strength of this set. Frankly if your team struggles against Scarf Jirachi to the point that you think it's broken than I expect you've got some serious teambuilding issues. If Scarf Jirachi is broken in UU because it can get some lucky breaks and flinch through its checks then it's broken in every tier, up to and including Ubers. That doesn't mean that I think we should completely ignore Serene Grace when we're talking about Jirachi, but I think that to ban Jirachi solely because Serene Grace is annoying (which is really the only reason anybody can argue that the Scarf set is broken) is a mistake.

That said, Happy Hour Jirachi really is obnoxious. Serene Grace is definitely a part of that, but the bulk and sheer versatility of the set are what make it really overwhelming. That bulk and Jirachi's wide movepool make HH Jirachi very difficult to effectively revenge kill after a boost (especially if you don't know its full set, as I've seen quite a few different coverage options on it), which in turn makes a couple of lucky flinches with Serene Grace even more overwhelming.

Now, here's the difficult part. While I very much disagree with the idea of preserving actively broken elements of a tier because they keep other threats in check, I think that a mon's position in the metagame as a whole is absolutely relevant when we're talking about a potential ban. This metagame clearly has problems, but I think there's a very real chance that Jirachi is the lynchpin that's keeping an already fragile meta from falling apart even further. If Jirachi is clearly and unequivocally broken then I think that absolutely it should be banned, regardless of its position in the meta, but if it's kind of hovering on the borderline, that's where things get messier. I don't think there's really an easy answer, but I also don't think that jumping straight into an immediate quickban or council ban is necessarily a great solution.

Altaria-Mega - I had suspicions that this would be busted as heck, but I wasn't sure. In practice, its success has been... mixed. It has such incredible bulk and one of the all-time best defensive typings, and there are a lot of teams where it theoretically just sweeps. In practice, though, it struggles with mediocre offensive presence, sometimes even after a boost, and a plethora of good Steel and Poison types that keep it in check. It has the tools it needs to break past more or less all of these, but it requires a fair bit of team support and even then there are some things that it pretty much always struggles with. For every game it sweeps, there's another where it gets trapped in an endless cycle of roosting and never manages to do anything particularly impressive.

Gardevoir-Mega - I've had a lot of success with Gardy; it has all the tools it needs to be incredibly threatening against most teams. With CM or Taunt it's especially brutal against bulkier teams, but the sheer spammability of Hyper Voice alongside a decent base 100 Speed and bulk that's not completely terrible (and actually pretty solid on the Special side) means that it has never really been dead weight. Of all the Megas other than Gallade, this one feels most on the borderline of being broken for me. The main thing holding it back is the omnipresence of Jirachi, which gets a free switch-in on any sets lacking WoW (and honestly still does a decent job of checking even if it does get burnt).

Latias-Mega - Really good, even with all the new Fairies and Steels. The only drawbacks are that Z-Latias is already so good (and shares the reduced Knock Off damage), and that there's a much larger opportunity cost to using this as your mega thanks to the other ridiculous megas in the tier. Even with that being the case, this is still really solid. There are a lot of really solid sets, including defensive sets, CM and offensive, and Latias was already a top-tier mon even without the mega. Give it a shot if you haven't already.

Manectric-Mega - I've actually really enjoyed Manectric, which I thought might end up being really limited in this meta. In practice, it benefits a lot from the fact that Scizor and Jirachi are probably the best non-megas in the tier right now, as it serves as a solid check to both while still maintaining good offensive presence against most teams.

Nihilego - Solid, definitely not broken but fun to use.

Rotom-Wash - Anyone surprised that this is already one of the most splashable mons in the tier? Certainly not broken but this is really good at checking a ton of threats and pivoting in a teammate, making it an immediate staple on bulky offense.

Smeargle - Holy crap if we banned things based on being annoying rather than being broken, I'd ban this way before I banned Jirachi. Its only viable sets are hazard leads but it's really good at that. Trying to play around Spore/Magic Bounce/Nuzzle makes this especially obnoxious as a lead, and while I certainly wouldn't call it broken, it's definitely good at what it does.

Ampharos-Mega - I think I've seen it once and it didn't do anything particularly notable.
 
#49
Been a while since I've posted here, so I thought I'd give some of my impressions of the meta as a whole...

Starting with the suspect, in a completely unsurprising turn of events, Gallade-Mega appears to be just as broken in practice as it appeared to be on paper. It has just the right combination of Speed, power and spammable STABs to threaten offense and fat alike, and it manages to do all this without being a complete glass cannon (it's certainly not bulky by any stretch of the imagination, but it's not nearly as frail as you'd expect of something with those types of offenses). This is a very easy decision for me: I'm going to vote to keep Gallade-Mega BL when the time comes.

As far as Heracross-Mega, I'm honestly not so sure. This is ABSOLUTELY broken on paper, and almost completely invalidates slower defensive teams. In practice, though, I've seen it decent but not actually overwhelming. This may just be a function of the meta itself, though—there's very little stall that I've come across on the ladder, and there are a ton of powerful offensive Fairy and Psychic types that limit Hera's usefulness despite its incredible bulk. That being said, when I laddered with Hera, it consistently put in work and its bulk meant it certainly wasn't dead weight even against more offensive teams. Unfortunately, it seems that not very many people are using it on the ladder, so I haven't really faced it on the opposing team more than a handful of times. Anyhow the jury's still out on this one, and I could easily see myself moving to a ban position (like I said, on paper this thing seems like the most obvious ban decision ever), but as for right now I'm honestly considering voting to unban.

Now, as for the others...

Jirachi - OK, this is difficult to really find a good starting point but I very much disagree with the people that are claiming that Scarf Jirachi is broken. It's certainly annoying and introduces more RNG into games than I might like, but I absolutely do not think it is broken on the strength of this set. Frankly if your team struggles against Scarf Jirachi to the point that you think it's broken than I expect you've got some serious teambuilding issues. If Scarf Jirachi is broken in UU because it can get some lucky breaks and flinch through its checks then it's broken in every tier, up to and including Ubers. That doesn't mean that I think we should completely ignore Serene Grace when we're talking about Jirachi, but I think that to ban Jirachi solely because Serene Grace is annoying (which is really the only reason anybody can argue that the Scarf set is broken) is a mistake.

That said, Happy Hour Jirachi really is obnoxious. Serene Grace is definitely a part of that, but the bulk and sheer versatility of the set are what make it really overwhelming. That bulk and Jirachi's wide movepool make HH Jirachi very difficult to effectively revenge kill after a boost (especially if you don't know its full set, as I've seen quite a few different coverage options on it), which in turn makes a couple of lucky flinches with Serene Grace even more overwhelming.

Now, here's the difficult part. While I very much disagree with the idea of preserving actively broken elements of a tier because they keep other threats in check, I think that a mon's position in the metagame as a whole is absolutely relevant when we're talking about a potential ban. This metagame clearly has problems, but I think there's a very real chance that Jirachi is the lynchpin that's keeping an already fragile meta from falling apart even further. If Jirachi is clearly and unequivocally broken then I think that absolutely it should be banned, regardless of its position in the meta, but if it's kind of hovering on the borderline, that's where things get messier. I don't think there's really an easy answer, but I also don't think that jumping straight into an immediate quickban or council ban is necessarily a great solution.

Altaria-Mega - I had suspicions that this would be busted as heck, but I wasn't sure. In practice, its success has been... mixed. It has such incredible bulk and one of the all-time best defensive typings, and there are a lot of teams where it theoretically just sweeps. In practice, though, it struggles with mediocre offensive presence, sometimes even after a boost, and a plethora of good Steel and Poison types that keep it in check. It has the tools it needs to break past more or less all of these, but it requires a fair bit of team support and even then there are some things that it pretty much always struggles with. For every game it sweeps, there's another where it gets trapped in an endless cycle of roosting and never manages to do anything particularly impressive.

Gardevoir-Mega - I've had a lot of success with Gardy; it has all the tools it needs to be incredibly threatening against most teams. With CM or Taunt it's especially brutal against bulkier teams, but the sheer spammability of Hyper Voice alongside a decent base 100 Speed and bulk that's not completely terrible (and actually pretty solid on the Special side) means that it has never really been dead weight. Of all the Megas other than Gallade, this one feels most on the borderline of being broken for me. The main thing holding it back is the omnipresence of Jirachi, which gets a free switch-in on any sets lacking WoW (and honestly still does a decent job of checking even if it does get burnt).

Latias-Mega - Honestly really good, even with all the new Fairies and Steels. Really the only drawback is that Z-Latias is already so good (and shares the reduced Knock Off damage), and that there's a much larger opportunity cost to using this as your mega thanks to the other ridiculous megas in the tier. Even with that being the case, this is still really solid. There are a lot of really solid sets, including defensive sets, CM and offensive, and Latias was already a top-tier mon even without the mega. Give it a shot if you haven't already.

Manectric-Mega - I've actually really enjoyed Manectric, which I thought might end up being really limited in this meta. In practice, it benefits a lot from the fact that Scizor and Jirachi are probably the best non-megas in the tier right now, as it serves as a solid check to both while still maintaining good offensive presence against most teams.

Nihilego - Solid, definitely not broken but fun to use.

Rotom-Wash - Anyone surprised that this is already one of the most splashable mons in the tier? Certainly not broken but this is really good at checking a ton of threats and pivoting in a teammate, making it an immediate staple on bulky offense.

Smeargle - Holy crap if we banned things based on being annoying rather than being broken, I'd ban this way before I banned Jirachi. Its only viable sets are hazard leads but it's really good at that. Trying to play around Spore/Magic Bounce/Nuzzle makes this especially obnoxious as a lead, and while I certainly wouldn't call it broken, it's definitely good at what it does.

Ampharos-Mega - I think I've seen it once and it didn't do anything particularly notable.

I think that serene grace isn't what makes Jirachi broken, it's what pushes it over the top. Rachi can run a number of different sets, and be extremely good at all of them, from Sdef wish support with rocks, to scarf, to z-happy hour (with varied coverage), to subtoxic stall, to even doom desire sets. This makes rachi difficult to play around, and easy to slap onto any team as a glue or a wincon. I don't think this necessarily makes it broken, although, I would say it makes it an easy candidate for S-rank. What makes it broken is that on top of all of this he can flinch his way past counters, throttling counterplay. Togekiss has serene grace, but only had 3 viable sets, and has much lower speed, making it less able to abuse the ability. I wouldn't be against a quickban of Jirachi.

Gallade has been busted since it dropped, I don't think anyone is defending him- I'd be amazed if he stays, for all the reasons already listed.

Mega Heracross is definitely good, and may be busted in the future, but it's hard to get a good reading on him with all the new threats that can put the hurt on him.

Mega Gardevoir is scary as hell, but I'm not sure yet whether it's broken. Nothing really takes a hit, and it outspeeds a lot of threats, so I'd lean towards yes, but that will be decided later anyways.

Smeargle is annoying, and combined with hazard stack getting more popular, it makes it risky not to run hazard removal in this meta, even though options are limited. I don't think it's banworthy, but I don't like it.

Mega Manectric I actually enjoy in the tier! He checks some other Megan's quite well, has good coverage, and makes a good volt turner with Rotom. If OU bans arena trap, this mon may move back up, but he's fun here right now.

Rotom is great, doing exactly what it's always done, except now with z-coverage. I love the addition to UU, it's a solid mon all around.

Nihilego is also a solid addition, not broken, not weak, it does its jobs reasonably well and can catch unprepared teams off guard sometimes.

Mega ampharos will be a great addition to RU one day.
 
#50
I fully agree with Hogg on the part of "ban only Jirachi is a mistake" cuz' Jirachi can check Gardevoir-Mega, Latias-Mega etc.." But you know..broken Pokemon check other broken Pokemon. There are clearly some problems in UU right now and the tier isn't healthy.
 
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