Metagame np: Stage 1 - Building Steam With a Grain of Salt (Throh and Sneasel BANNED, read post #143)

[Deej Dy]

I find it hard to buy this argument. I don't get why Machoke and Pancham are concerns; are we going to ban Regice so that Vanilluxe doesn't get outclassed? I don't think all the sets are identical either; even if they were I'd argue that being one-dimensional is a minus point and not something to ban over.

I don't find Throh fitting in that easily with minimal teambuilding tbh. To be honest it's difficult to judge this with Sneasel in the tier forcing us all to run one of Throh / Poliwrath / Costa, but like you yourself said it's not always possible to just throh it into your team because of the opportunity cost of not using Poliwrath which has a nice water typing, Carracosta which has sr, etc

The only part of that argument I find somewhat convincing is when you state that bulky mons would get more opportunities. I would like to clarify why that is a case for a ban though, because bulky mons can easily be paired with teammates that take on Throh such as Pelipper or Arbok, while wearing it down by chipping away at it, which isn't much different from another mon that is just as hard to switch into like Ninetales or Leafeon.

(still on the fence over Throh)

I see where you are coming from, as my post was more opinionated and less polarized than the other posts, however I do disagree with you in that Throh certainly is easy to use a "gluemon". Carracosta fits an entirely different role than Throh as a stealth rocker and normal/flying resist/or even shell smasher.
Throhs niche over Poliwrath would be to take any dark or non SE special attack and force a switch by threatening a Knock off/ Storm throw/ Ice punch which can't be hampered by status, whereas Poliwrath has more special weaknesses in grass and electric and mainly switches in on Dark types such Sneasel and Pawniard and is also hampered by status.


The reason I said I don't use it at the end is because I have a Wrath and Roselia core which allows me to take those Electric/Grass attacks that make Poliwrath a less effective gluemon than Throh. I realize it was a pretty short quip at the end, but that is why I use Wrath.

 

[Mistress Remilia]

Sneasel is insane. It eats for breakfast most Offensive teams that are lacking the very few things that can handle it, such as Poliwrath or Monferno, the latter being eh. Sneasel prevents PU from evolving, it's a vicious circle. If i'm weak to Sneasel, who's common, imma run Poliwrath, who's already very common in PU to begin with too. Unless you're mad, a meta turning around 2 Pokemons that counters each other is not a good meta. What about Stall? It's eh, and even in that case, they struggles against Sneasel if they lack, again, Poliwrath. Sneasel is just overcentralizing, broken by virtue of insane speed, power, & coverage. Ban It

 

[g]

Ok it is time for me to post my thoughts on both suspect tested Pokemon

Sneasel is clearly the most broken of the two in my opinion. It restricts teambuilding much more than it can be perceived because the metagame at the moment is so sickly used to it but real talk if you dont have Poliwrath, Max Hp Throh, or a niche set like Defensive Carracosta (or Corsola lol) chances are that it is going to get a kill every time it switches in with right prediction. It is also fast as fuck with the only viable Pokemon outspeeding it being Zebstrika, which takes a lot from Life Orb Ice Shard and can't switch into any move outside of Swords Dance (+2 252 Atk Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zebstrika: 153-181 (52.5 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) anyway. After losing some of its best checks in Intimidate Choice Scarf Tauros and after getting rid of the most broken forces i think it is time for Sneasel to go.

Throh is a suspect that most would call at least controversial but i think that what really pushes it over the edge is its sheer splashability on pretty much every kind of team. Throh works on every damn playstyle and there is no reason not to use it unless Poliwrath fits better in your team (which means Throh would work 9/10 of the time too) much like Garbodor did and damn if it is hard to take down in one hit meaning that a lot of the time is constantly able to switch into a myriad of Pokemon and force them out with the threat of beating them 1v1. Throh is also incredibly difficult to deal with because of its access to Knock Off and Guts ability which make switching into it and wearing it down by traditional means a very hard task since it removes items such as Eviolite and Leftovers for free and hits even harder when statused which is just even more of a pain. Also it gets past his counters if he chooses to with moves such as Thunder Punch and Ice Punch for Pelipper and Jumpluff/Torterra. However, I am not completely sure that Throh is broken. After all it doesn't have the longest lifespawn if it is not using Rest, is too pressured by offensive Pokemon if using it, and doesn't hit all that hard without Choice Band nor can run all coverage in 4 slots feasibly which make it more broken on paper than anything.

 

[ManOfMany]

I don't like this repeated idea that Sneasel forces us to run Throh, Poliwrath, and defensive Costa, so it is broken. If one thing, this makes it less broken to me, because the meta has adapted around it. And it is very hard for Sneasel to put in work in a match when the opponent has one of these pokemon (not to mention Torkoal, Relicanth, Pelipper (which checks the life orb set), and Defensive Armaldo). It is not as if it can just switch in freely, spam knock off as the opponent switches to the counter, and then switch back out, because it gets easily worn down by hazards and sometimes life orb recoil, and who wants to give a free switch to Poliwrath/Throh?

There is also this misconception that it OHKOes every offensive pokemon ever. I know hazards are a thing, but there are a decent amount of offensive pokemon that can take a hit and KO back. Examples include Kingler, Barbaracle, Ninetales, Luxray, Arbok, Mightyena, Stoutland. But the ease which Sneasel sweeps offensive teams that have been worn down is definitely more than a little concerning.

 

[gasquakee]

I don't like this repeated idea that Sneasel forces us to run Throh, Poliwrath, and defensive Costa, so it is broken. If one thing, this makes it less broken to me, because the meta has adapted around it. And it is very hard for Sneasel to put in work in a match when the opponent has one of these pokemon (not to mention Torkoal, Relicanth, Pelipper (which checks the life orb set), and Defensive Armaldo). It is not as if it can just switch in freely, spam knock off as the opponent switches to the counter, and then switch back out, because it gets easily worn down by hazards and sometimes life orb recoil, and who wants to give a free switch to Poliwrath/Throh?

There is also this misconception that it OHKOes every offensive pokemon ever. I know hazards are a thing, but there are a decent amount of offensive pokemon that can take a hit and KO back. Examples include Kingler, Barbaracle, Ninetales, Luxray, Arbok, Mightyena, Stoutland. But the ease which Sneasel sweeps offensive teams that have been worn down is definitely more than a little concerning.

The fact that it forces people to run pokemon such as Throh, Poliwrath, and Defensive Carracosta is called over centralization. Even if they ARE good pokemon your team can easily be picked apart by a well played Sneasel if you dont run them.

 

[Akir]

Well, I just finished getting the ranking and played plenty on my test alt...so it's time for me to weigh in.

After reading all of the previous posts, I feel that it might be noteworthy to bring up an important aspect of Throh: how it performs in this metagame in particular. What I mean is that I personally think that a lot of Throh's strengths come from the fact that he is simply very good in this particular version of the metagame. Pure Fighting is good typing to resist the large amount of Ice and Dark in the tier, and with Knock Off the poke has almost-perfect coverage. Throh likes to absorb every status out there and has great bulk (for the tier), making Throh a great pivot/tank. I personally throw Throh on every single PU team that I make just because it deals with so many threats and issues that I need dealing with.

So what I'm trying to say is this: Throh is very good as a standalone, but he is FANTASTIC in this particular version of this tier. If the dynamics of the tier were even marginally different, like if the best setup sweeper was something like Ground, Throh would not be as good. The tier plays directly into his capable hands. So if I were to get on the council, I would vote NOT to ban it.

I suspect Throh won't be used as much if Sneasel is banned. The tier losing Sneasel would make many more slower sweepers a chance to shine and everyone would have more options to break through Throh with.

 

[Grim]

Most of the stuff that Throh walls, such as Sneasel and Misdreavus, hit it neutrally with their STAB moves so I don't think that a slightly different PU (for example the best set up sweeper being Ground-type like you said) would change much, especially since Throh often carries Ice Punch now. Fighting also doesn't resist Ice ;o. Throh is also being suspected in this metagame, not in a metagame where Sneasel is gone. If we ban both and the council believes, for example 3 months later, that Throh is not that broken in a tier without Sneasel, it could always be retested.

 

[g]

UPDATE ON THE SUSPECT TEST

OK, so there is about 60 Hours (Monday is the Day) before the Throh+Sneasel Suspect Test ends.

If you think you qualified for the Rotating Council, please PM me your ladder alt req screenshot (GXE score of at least 75 and Glicko-1 of 1750 ± 80 or better) AS WELL AS some of your posts relating to the CURRENT metagame. This does not have to be only about the suspect test, or even in this thread, as long as it is relevant and shows that you have sufficient knowledge of the metagame. Feel free to PM me these reqs even if you think you are a long shot: even if you are not able to be a part of this Rotating Council round, I would be glad to give you advice for how to improve your forum presence. Me and the rest of the PU council will be choosing a number of candidates that will participate with their vote. Other parameters will also be considered such as PS Room and IRC Presence as well as posts in the C&C section.

 

[Akir]

Most of the stuff that Throh walls, such as Sneasel and Misdreavus, hit it neutrally with their STAB moves so I don't think that a slightly different PU (for example the best set up sweeper being Ground-type like you said) would change much, especially since Throh often carries Ice Punch now. Fighting also doesn't resist Ice ;o. Throh is also being suspected in this metagame, not in a metagame where Sneasel is gone. If we ban both and the council believes, for example 3 months later, that Throh is not that broken in a tier without Sneasel, it could always be retested.

That's a good point, and I always think Fighting resists Ice...don't know why. That said though, I still think Throh is not broken. As people have said before, it's easy enough to wear down the guy and some pokes can even use it as setup fodder. All I'm trying to say is that Throh is good, but it's because Sneasel and other sweepers that are weak to Throh are so common that Throh simply has more chances to shine. I really think that in a metagame without Sneasel, Throh is perfectly fine.

tl;dr = Banning Sneasel will shift offensive focus enough that Throh won't be as effective as he currently is. I really feel that Throh should avoid being banned long enough to see how he does in a tier without Sneasel-oriented offense.

 

[termi]

hello all I'm resigning from council & qc because tbf I've been doing fuck all for PU and I don't think I will be doing much more in the future

 

[2xTheTap]

There are a lot of nice points you brought up in your rebuttal, Anty. But, there were some points I made that were misunderstood a bit, so I'd like to take some time to write a small rebuttal of my own in order to clarify to you and other pro-ban council members where I actually stand on Throh (no point in discussing Sneasel further, it's obviously broken in PU).

While Throh is easily an S Rank Pokemon thanks to its awesome coverage (Fighting and Dark cover everything but Fairy, and all Fairies in the tier outside of Carbink cannot afford to lose their items whether it's an Eviolite or a Choice Scarf), its great bulk, and the fact that most Pokemon have a hard time switching into it successfully, I still think even despite all of this that Throh does not deserve a ban.

In this post you just talk about revenge killers of a base 45 speed pokemon, but yet you fail to address its utility in switching into half the tier and its lack of switch ins.

As you can see here, I did mention that it has a distinct lack of switch ins ("most Pokemon have a hard time switching into it successfully") thanks to its great Dark + Fighting coverage. Not having a hard counter if Ice Punch or Thunder Punch are being ran for Jumpluff or Pelipper does make it seem like it doesn't belong in PU, but Throh always has to choose between RestTalk and coverage. If it chooses RestTalk, hard counters like Pelipper and Jumpluff exist, or if it chooses Ice Punch, its longevity is severely limited.

Stall isnt even relevant in this tier and the taunt + toxic set is pretty bad when you would much rather run ice punch over throh to beat pokes like jumpluff. Offensive teams dont have as much of a problem with restalk than with ice punch + toxic as now pokes like jumpluff cannot easily deal with it, restalk only really screws over balance that relies on pelipper as a 'counter'. Also being able to chose whether to 'beat' one playstyle or another is a good sign of broken-ness

Stall actually became much more viable in PU since Tauros left, as Tauros with its old standard set of Zen Headbutt / Iron Tail or EQ / Fire Blast / Rock Climb had a really easy time with Stall if Misdreavus or defensive Carracosta had any prior damage. Avalugg was 2HKO'd after SR with Iron Tail and couldn't switch in, defensive Poliwrath was 2HKO'd by Zen Headbutt and couldn't switch in, and Roselia was OHKO'd.
Taunt + Toxic is therefore relevant and should get at least a mention because of Stall's returning viability due to Tauros' absence (though I would still run Ice Punch first over Taunt at this point in the meta).
The second point about RestTalk only really screwing over Balance is off too, as RestTalk provides Throh with the bulk to deal with Offense. I do agree though with your final point here, that being able to choose to beat one play style or another is a pretty significant indication of how good Throh really is.

Well done, you list a bunch of Pokemon which outspeed and have super effective stabs or high physical bulk/defensive type advantage, but there are two problems here. Firstly, non of these (bar maybe bulky arbok which is the inferior set imo) enjoy switching in, others really dont do that much damage (mr mime does about 65 with a super effective STAB), and some just die to coverage. Secondly, listing a bunch of mons that can check is really isnt a great argument, as that be done for plenty of broken pokes, RU pangoro for example; it is similar to throh as it can hit hard with great coverage however was very easy to revenge kill, but yet it was still broken as fuck. Also note that it has a better matchup with all but 7 of the 30 pokes in S and A rank, with those having type advantages or a lot of bulk.

Most of these Pokemon can actually switch in to one of Throh's coverage moves if predicted correctly and can OHKO or 2HKO. I only say this to emphasize that prediction will always be a two-way street, and therefore Throh's great coverage does not always ensure victory.
For example, Mr. Mime switching into Throh's Storm Throw can stay in and take the Knock Off while 2HKOing with Psychic, or force Throh out with minimal loss. Likewise, Throh can beat Mime as it switches into a Knock Off and use Knock Off again for the KO.
These cases are often multifaceted and nearly always end in the better player outpredicting the other. In other words, the better player will hardly ever be beaten by a luckier, newer player just because he is using Throh.

Its standard set is Storm Throw/Knock Off/Ice Punch/Toxic, which restalk coming second, and i highly doubt the opposing throh will allow your leafeon to set up on it while it is sleeping, in the same way that if a jumpluff has put your poke to sleep, you switch right out so it cannot keep setting up.

The only point here was to say that Throh using Rest and Sleep Talk is very exploitable. Using Rest creates setup opportunities, where Throh is either forced out right after it recovers or it stays in and sometimes selects the wrong move with Sleep Talk.
To further show how exploitable RestTalk sets are, Taunt prevents Throh from doing anything while it's sleeping for 2 turns. Furthermore, a combination of Encore + ChoiceTrick can easily neuter Throh, as I show in this replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-219276498 The point that I'm making here is that Throh's RestTalk set is extremely exploitable and easy to play around if you've thought about countering RestTalk Throh before.

Finally, I don't think banning one of two fully evolved Fighting type Pokemon will be healthy for the PU metagame in the long run. This by itself would be clearly limiting to PU because if you wanted a solid answer to Knock Off in order to keep your team's items in tact, you'd be forced to run Carbink or Poliwrath pretty much. Consequently, if you were forced to run either Poliwrath or Carbink for Knock Off absorption (Carbink isn't even a safe option because Pawniard exists), your team composition would be too limited to run an offensive Water type, like SS Huntail, SS Carracosta, SS Barbaracle, Floatzel, Kingler or Basculin, as there would be too many type weaknesses in common (e.g. Water + Water, Water + Water/Rock, Rock + Water, or Rock + Water/Rock).

I would just like to clarify here that I was uncertain of how healthy the PU metagame here would be with one less Knock Off absorb.
However, I'd like to retract this completely as I cannot predict accurately how PU will change with the removal of Throh as new answers to Knock Off in PU may be innovated soon. You make a sound point here that I now agree with.
Additionally, I was concerned that losing one of PU's only fully evolved Fighting mons would affect Teambuilding negatively.
However, this is also probably not an issue as we are possibly losing Throh (and probably losing Sneasel); two premier Knock Off users that made Fighting types mandatory on PU teams. This is also a non-argument at this point.

 

[g]

Honestly the only Knock Off users in the tier outside of the good but not great pawniard are in fact throh and the soon-to-be-banned (I hope) Sneasel so removing Throh won't cause anything with Knock Off to be broken (which would be broken even if this mysterious entity was countered by throh only, so this is a shit argument). I do agree with most of your points though.

 

[MZ]

There are a lot of nice points you brought up in your rebuttal, Anty. But, there were some points I made that were misunderstood a bit, so I'd like to take some time to write a small rebuttal of my own in order to clarify to you and other pro-ban council members where I actually stand on Throh (no point in discussing Sneasel further, it's obviously broken in PU).


As you can see here, I did mention that it has a distinct lack of switch ins ("most Pokemon have a hard time switching into it successfully") thanks to its great Dark + Fighting coverage. Not having a hard counter if Ice Punch or Thunder Punch are being ran for Jumpluff or Pelipper does make it seem like it doesn't belong in PU, but Throh always has to choose between RestTalk and coverage. If it chooses RestTalk, hard counters like Pelipper and Jumpluff exist, or if it chooses Ice Punch, its longevity is severely limited.

Stall actually became much more viable in PU since Tauros left, as Tauros with its old standard set of Zen Headbutt / Iron Tail or EQ / Fire Blast / Rock Climb had a really easy time with Stall if Misdreavus or defensive Carracosta had any prior damage. Avalugg was 2HKO'd after SR with Iron Tail and couldn't switch in, defensive Poliwrath was 2HKO'd by Zen Headbutt and couldn't switch in, and Roselia was OHKO'd.
Taunt + Toxic is therefore relevant and should get at least a mention because of Stall's returning viability due to Tauros' absence (though I would still run Ice Punch first over Taunt at this point in the meta).
The second point about RestTalk only really screwing over Balance is off too, as RestTalk provides Throh with the bulk to deal with Offense. I do agree though with your final point here, that being able to choose to beat one play style or another is a pretty significant indication of how good Throh really is.

Most of these Pokemon can actually switch in to one of Throh's coverage moves if predicted correctly and can OHKO or 2HKO. I only say this to emphasize that prediction will always be a two-way street, and therefore Throh's great coverage does not always ensure victory.
For example, Mr. Mime switching into Throh's Storm Throw can stay in and take the Knock Off while 2HKOing with Psychic, or force Throh out with minimal loss. Likewise, Throh can beat Mime as it switches into a Knock Off and use Knock Off again for the KO.
These cases are often multifaceted and nearly always end in the better player outpredicting the other. In other words, the better player will hardly ever be beaten by a luckier, newer player just because he is using Throh.
The only point here was to say that Throh using Rest and Sleep Talk is very exploitable. Using Rest creates setup opportunities, where Throh is either forced out right after it recovers or it stays in and sometimes selects the wrong move with Sleep Talk.
To further show how exploitable RestTalk sets are, Taunt prevents Throh from doing anything while it's sleeping for 2 turns. Furthermore, a combination of Encore + ChoiceTrick can easily neuter Throh, as I show in this replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-219276498 The point that I'm making here is that Throh's RestTalk set is extremely exploitable and easy to play around if you've thought about countering RestTalk Throh before.

I would just like to clarify here that I was uncertain of how healthy the PU metagame here would be with one less Knock Off absorb.
However, I'd like to retract this completely as I cannot predict accurately how PU will change with the removal of Throh as new answers to Knock Off in PU may be innovated soon. You make a sound point here that I now agree with.
Additionally, I was concerned that losing one of PU's only fully evolved Fighting mons would affect Teambuilding negatively.
However, this is also probably not an issue as we are possibly losing Throh (and probably losing Sneasel); two premier Knock Off users that made Fighting types mandatory on PU teams. This is also a non-argument at this point.

I agree with most of this, but encore+choice trick seems like the most elaborate, unnecessary method of killing something ever. If that's what you have to do to kill something, it's kind of an issue. That being said, you could've choiced it into knock off with Dusknoir and won with poli anyway.

 

[Akir]

I will post about Sneasel while there is still a bit of time left.

There has been a lot said about Sneasel, and I personally consider it to be the offensive lategame incarnate due to its almost unmatched speed and power. As I mentioned in a previous post, I ran Throh on 100% of my teams, so I had to make a new team to test Sneasel on people who didn't have a ready check for it. Made a team with a Swords Dance Sneasel + Scarf Dodrio offensive core and I must say that Sneasel is horrifying. After a Swords Dance, you better have one of 3 things: Poliwrath, Throh, or a good scarfer that isn't weak to Ice Shard or you lose. Even if you do manage to KO Sneasel before you lose, it probably broke so many holes in your team that a good scarfer (Dodrio in my case) can easily come in and clean up.

The list of counters to Sneasel is small, and a good player will focus on getting those 3 pokes out of the game before even bringing in Sneasel. Also because of the small list of counters, it is very easy to teambuild around Sneasel to get the job done. So I plead with the council: BAN IT

 

[g]

UPDATE POST

The time to qualify for this suspect test is now over. There was another candidate me and the council had in mind but he didn't make it and he won't get a chance to vote unless he makes it super-fast.

Here is the list of who will vote to decide the fate of Throh and Sneasel
Permanent Council
Dell (co-leader)
WhiteDMist (co-leader)
galbia
Anty
Magnemite
Montsegur
scorpdestroyer

Rotating Council
2xTheTap
GasQuake
Raiza.
Megazard Z
GrimoireGod

You guys should send me, dell, and WhiteDMist (click here to create the convo) your vote (don't be weird and remember to state your vote without being ambiguous) + a short paragraph (no essays)as soon as possible (no later than 48 hours).
Like every time for every Pokemon to get a ban majority will be necessary so at least 7 ban votes will be necessary for either Pokemon to be banned.
Please be serious with your chance to vote (not that i doubt that you will).

 

[Anty]

I still dont agree with a lot that you are saying

As you can see here, I did mention that it has a distinct lack of switch ins ("most Pokemon have a hard time switching into it successfully") thanks to its great Dark + Fighting coverage. Not having a hard counter if Ice Punch or Thunder Punch are being ran for Jumpluff or Pelipper does make it seem like it doesn't belong in PU, but Throh always has to choose between RestTalk and coverage. If it chooses RestTalk, hard counters like Pelipper and Jumpluff exist, or if it chooses Ice Punch, its longevity is severely limited.

I see what you mean here, but jumpluff cannot counter as it has 0 recovery and a rock weakness (takes 55% min from rocks switch in) and pelipper has to run what would be an otherwise inferior move, just to counter throh

Stall actually became much more viable in PU since Tauros left, as Tauros with its old standard set of Zen Headbutt / Iron Tail or EQ / Fire Blast / Rock Climb had a really easy time with Stall if Misdreavus or defensive Carracosta had any prior damage. Avalugg was 2HKO'd after SR with Iron Tail and couldn't switch in, defensive Poliwrath was 2HKO'd by Zen Headbutt and couldn't switch in, and Roselia was OHKO'd.
Taunt + Toxic is therefore relevant and should get at least a mention because of Stall's returning viability due to Tauros' absence (though I would still run Ice Punch first over Taunt at this point in the meta).

That is still wrong. Defensive missy has to have a lot of prior damage to avoid the 2HKO, iron tail is pretty much irrelevant as it is a much inferior move to eq, and without it you lose the ability to hit costa, and defensive costa walls you anyway. Either way this is not a discussion on tauros (as it was decided that tauros was mainly banned as it had almost 0 offensive switch ins, and the counters people named only fit on defensive teams); however, now that tauros is gone, ursaring and stoutland increase has gone up, both of which dont really have switch ins on stall, and there are other pokes like life orb simipour who are used more which have 0 counters. Even if stall wasnt viable, there isnt much point of running taunt as offensive teams are much more common.

The second point about RestTalk only really screwing over Balance is off too, as RestTalk provides Throh with the bulk to deal with Offense. I do agree though with your final point here, that being able to choose to beat one play style or another is a pretty significant indication of how good Throh really is.

Being able to beat a playstyle is more of an indication that a poke is broken than just good

Most of these Pokemon can actually switch in to one of Throh's coverage moves if predicted correctly and can OHKO or 2HKO. I only say this to emphasize that prediction will always be a two-way street, and therefore Throh's great coverage does not always ensure victory.
For example, Mr. Mime switching into Throh's Storm Throw can stay in and take the Knock Off while 2HKOing with Psychic, or force Throh out with minimal loss. Likewise, Throh can beat Mime as it switches into a Knock Off and use Knock Off again for the KO.
These cases are often multifaceted and nearly always end in the better player outpredicting the other. In other words, the better player will hardly ever be beaten by a luckier, newer player just because he is using Throh.
The only point here was to say that Throh using Rest and Sleep Talk is very exploitable. Using Rest creates setup opportunities, where Throh is either forced out right after it recovers or it stays in and sometimes selects the wrong move with Sleep Talk.
To further show how exploitable RestTalk sets are, Taunt prevents Throh from doing anything while it's sleeping for 2 turns. Furthermore, a combination of Encore + ChoiceTrick can easily neuter Throh, as I show in this replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-219276498 The point that I'm making here is that Throh's RestTalk set is extremely exploitable and easy to play around if you've thought about countering RestTalk Throh before.

This has probably been said before, but prediction is a bad argument, but in this case it is in throh's favour, as if it does predict correctly, it can KO/severely cripple a mon, but if it doesnt predict correctly, throh doesnt really lose, just the opp has more momentum. That replay doesnt really show that throh is too exploitable, as you can encore any poke and then exploit them (also encore + choice trick seems wayy too specific - and it can cripple any poke). I understand what you mean about exploiting throhs 1/3 chance (or 2/3), and that is one of the biggest flaws, however i dont think that makes it not broken. Firstly, if you let an asleep mon stay in on a set up sweeper you are doing something wrong, and secondly, there will be situations that you regret trying to take advantage of a sleeping throh as this is a luck based argument, so even if it is not in throhs favour, the point cannot be strong enough to justify a ban/no ban

That post is a lot stronger than the other one (welcome to rotating council c:)

 

[Kingler]

Okay so I have been sorta rusty due to not having played a lot since the Kecleon/Tauros meta, but I do feel that these threats are broken and cause a lot of problems in teambuilding.

Pretty much everyone has said what needs to be said about Sneasel; it's fast, powerful, has a great STAB combination and also has a filler move (that's if running SD) to add extra coverage or give it even further utility without priority. It has literally two counters in Poliwrath and Throh; almost everything else can be considered a soft check as they take huge damage from a Life Orb-boosted or +2 Icicle Crash/Knock Off. not really gonna go on more about this because various posts uptil now have done so pretty well.

Throh is definitely far more controversial, but I think if we look at the requisites for banning (those are outright broken/uncompetitive to a great degree/centralizing to an unhealthy degree), Throh definitely falls in the ban area. It may not be either of the three, but imo it's a combination of 1+3 to a certain degree, although an argument like this can't help being subjective.

Just taking a quick glance at the viability rankings, throh at least matches up decently 1v1 against all the other s-ranks (non-life orb ninetales doesn't have a chance to 2HKO 252 HP throh while storm throw does a lot back, life orb poliwrath doesn't have a chance to 2HKO same spread, sneasel is lol), while only Jumpluff from the A+ rank can switch in and can take advantage of Throh easily. Sure, there are many mons that beat Throh; Jumpluff, offensive Pelipper, Togetic (3HKOes w/ Dazzling Gleam), Swanna, Arbok, and so on, but these are probably the only mons that can come in on Throh's commonly used moves and threaten to at least 3HKO, not being 2HKOed or so by any of its common moves. And this is going down all the way to the B+ ranks or so. However, Jumpluff always fears Ice Punch (Acrobatics doesn't KO, so Jumpluff can't even immediately force it out except for Sleep Powder) and has 0 way of recovering (EDIT- it has synthesis but it's not v common), Togetic is crippled hard by Knock Off, Pelipper and Swanna are bopped by T-punch, and none of the mons exactly like taking a Taunt or Toxic aside from Togetic or Arbok for the latter. Also note that all of these threats except for Arbok are SR-weak and the damage after switching in forces them to recover immediately, thereby shifting the momentum in the Throh user's favour. Throh may be slow, but it's not 2HKOed by most common Pokemon found on the balance/bulky offensive teams that pretty much dominate PU, and keeping it healthy isn't incredibly hard.

For comparison's sake, something like Poliwrath isn't nearly as hard to deal with; non-Ice Beam variants are hardwalled by Roselia and Jumpluff, with most other mons often being able to stomach lefties poli's hits and hit back. It's easy to take advantage of as you can start setting up spikes with rose vs. it or SD with Jumpluff. Even if it runs Life Orb Ice Beam, 2HKOing rose and OHKOing jumpluff, it's easy to pivot in with a water resist+either of the said mons. This is not to mention offensive Pelipper, Togetic, and Swanna, all of which can come in pretty easily. Even defensive poli is an /okay/ check to it. Poliwrath can't really do much to its counters, unlike Throh, which can run niche coverage moves as well as Taunt/Toxic the switch-in. Also, poli's counters easily 2HKO it, whereas this isn't really the case for Throh. Life Orb Poliwrath is easily worn down while Lefties isn't powerful enough to break through a lot of defensive cores.

I mean stall is also much better now, but that's still not a bad matchup for Throh due to Taunt+Toxic shutting down a lot of walls and Knock Off being a bitch to deal with for the playstyle in general. I'd definitely recommend for Throh to be banned, as its ability to switch in on most of the tier and beat most threats 1v1, as well as cripple switch-ins with Taunt/Toxic/Knock Off, makes it broken in my eyes.

 

[g]

UPDATE POST

Everybody has now voted and Sneasel and Throh are officially banned to BL4.
Sneasel was banned with an unprecedented unanimous 12-0 Ban while Throh leaves the tier with a close 7-5 vote and is bound to be retested again when the tier will be a little bit different.

In-depth reasoning will be posted in minutes in this thread

Tagging The Immortal so that the changes can be reflected into the simulator n_n

 

[Kingler]

woop, honestly thought throh would be more unanimous but w/e

uhh Darkspam looks really cool from the one match I've had because honestly only Poli checks it and non-resttalk variants are so easy to overload lmao. Mightyena + Pawniard on your standard offense/hyper offense looks incredibly fun to use. Balance/bulky offense has more breathing room imo because you don't have cores like Roselia + Carracosta being broken by Throh or pressured heavily by weasel. Poliwrath seems to be pretty centralizing, but not to the extent that it will be banned. Will consolidate my thoughts further but honestly in this new meta it seems that nothing is really broken. Will elaborate on thoughts upon playing more.

 

[Deej Dy]

Some brief thoughts:
Now with Sneasel not on the prowl, fast setup mons like Jumpluff and Ninetales become much harder to revenge kill after properly setting up, as now only Zebraiken, the Simipour (Ninetales) and a few others have a chance at stopping them. I can also see misdeavus becoming much much better, as 2 huge knock off users have left the tier allowing the pesky ghost to Spinblock and wall EVEN MORE effectively which was pretty damn good before.

 

[Raiza]

I'd say I had high expectations for this tier, and they got totally fullfilled now. This post-ban stage is developing really nicely and I definitely like how it plays now, as most of playstyles are balanced and not frustrating to play anymore. These bans were really a bless, the two former PU pokemon were centralising team building a lot, which now is more fun and free from old frames such as running a bulky Fighting-type most of the time. Deej Dy already said some things but I want to go less in depth and talk about how some playstyles evolved in general. Stall of course greatly appreciated this suspect because both Sneasel and Throh, especially the CB variant, gave a lot of trouble to Stall teams, with access to Knock Off to cripple Eviolite users, that are really popular on bulkier teams and enough coverage to pass through popular defensive cores, but we already treated that so I will move on into Dark-spam. This ''play-style'' can be considered a loser and a winner at the same time as they lost one of the best Dark-type Pokemon in the tier in Sneasel, but also gained more space to sweep thanks to the department of Throh, also Pokemon such as Mightyena and Zweilous will be reconsidered as premier choices (Mightyena almost surely, Zweilous is more uncertain).
I want to also give a spotlight to Hail, as Snow Warning Aurorus' time is coming, this will provide a more reliable weather setter to the playstyle, as Snover really is underwhelming at the moment, and hopefully we will see a bit of rise from Weather, specifically Hail, as it's really underrated now.

e: epic 80th PU post

 

[kay]

So with spike stacking becoming a very strong play style, and with picks such as Golem, Roselia, and Dwebble becoming very common place in PU, I got to thinking: What lead could deal with all of these top tier hazard stacking mons?

Rampardos @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 128 Atk / 128 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Head Smash
- Surf
- Endeavor/ Superpower

In comes lead Rampardos. So Rampardos is a VERY interesting mon in this meta right now due to just how good its lead match ups are vs hazard stacking and stall. Being able to ohko Custap leads past their sturdy is a huge momentum boost, especially on play style such as Hyper Offense and Spike Stack, where whoever controls momentum can often times snowball a match.

(128 Sp.A is used over the standard 114 Sp.A to OHKO Dwebble with surf, so you don't have to risk the head smash miss, as shown in the calcs below)

Calcs

128 SpA Rampardos Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Golem: 304-360 (103.6 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

128 Atk Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Roselia: 340-402 (110.8 - 130.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

128 Atk Rampardos Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 626-740 (258.9 - 304.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
128 SpA Rampardos Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dwebble: 238-280 (100.4 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

128 Atk Rampardos Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 232-274 (57.4 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

128 Atk Rampardos Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Probopass: 424-500 (130.8 - 154.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The choice of Endeavor/Superpower depends on how badly you want to hit Probopass and Piloswine. Generally Endeavor has more uses, but Superpower is a viable option non the less.

EDIT: just some fixes to the set, thanks GrimoireGod for pointing it out ;]

 

[noobcubed]

Might Machoke see a bit of usage now Throh is gone? It seems like the most natural candidate for a Throh-like mon, as a bulky Fighting-type with Knock Off, though lacking cool stuff like Circle Throw and Taunt that helped Throh deal with its so-called counters. Also No Guard Dynamic Punch is attractive for those who are (inexplicably) bemoaning the banning of Chatter.

 

[MZ]

So this was a room discussion that turned into a cool idea here. With Throh being gone, Ninetales isn't required to run psyshock anymore, as nasty plot/energy ball/fire blast can do for its main set. This now frees up a slot for it to run some cool other moves such as will-o-wisp, substitute (which can now go on the main set), hp fighting to hit probopass, or dark pulse to 2hko grumpig after SR at +2 (credits to ManOfMany). Maybe there are other interesting options for it. Just some food for thought.

 

[Anty]

So this was a room discussion that turned into a cool idea here. With Throh being gone, Ninetales isn't required to run psyshock anymore, as nasty plot/energy ball/fire blast can do for its main set. This now frees up a slot for it to run some cool other moves such as will-o-wisp, substitute (which can now go on the main set), hp fighting to hit probopass, or dark pulse to 2hko grumpig after SR at +2 (credits to ManOfMany). Maybe there are other interesting options for it. Just some food for thought.

Ninetales never needed pay shock for throh considering it did 4% more at +2 than fire blast. A large reason to use it was to hit flash fires, particular opposing ninetales, also rapidash. Substitute was my favourite last move for oras, but there are issues with it, ie losing to opposing fire types, and not being able to hold an item, but you won't really berries like passho if you have a sub up, but obviously life orb power would be appreciated. However, ninetales has the bulk to to take less than 25% from hit like lickilicky's knock off and it has many opportunities to set one up on the switch or a random thunder wave, which can be crucial as the best way to stop it is with a faster Pokemon. Another option is hidden power ground, which hits the fire types, and can ohko rapidash at +2 and ninetales can take a drill run, while also probopass. I'm not too sure on hidden power fighting as that only hits probopass, who don't like fire blasts, and zweilous, which is uncommon. Hypnosis could be cool in setting up but is unreliable, and will-o-wisp has a similar concept but can cripple switch ins like zweilous.

From playing a bit with the new meta there aren't too many changes I feel. For example, psychic types that disliked sneasel, like swoobat, enjoyed throh as a partner, but overall most Pokemon benefitted/didn't change. A particular poke who gained a lot is machoke. Currently it is a bad throh as it has the same bulk, similar stab strength, but weaker coverage, but is crippled by knock off. I have been testing out two main sets which both work like throh; restalk (rest/sleep talk/cc/knock with guts), and 4 attacks (dynamic punch/knock off/bullet punch/tpunch or ice punch). Currently the latter is better as confusion is amazing and hitting togetic and pelipper is good, obviously you can use different abilities for each set, though no guard looks better as cc defense drops make it easily revenge killed, but with guts you have a better match up vs ghosts. I guess it depends on your team.