Metagame np: Stage 3 - 9(9) Problems

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boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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I have a set for a defensive Slurpuff:

Slurpuff ( Puffles ) @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP, 252 Def, 4 SpA
Ability: Sweet Veil
Bold Nature
Heal Bell/Aromateraphy
Wish
Protect
Cotton Guard

With Sweet Veil, Puffles and it's ally can't fall asleep ( Stops Sleep Powder Spams like Vivillon ), with Heal Bell/Aromateraphy, it can removes bad stats from all Allys, including he, Cotton Guard allows Slurpuff to get a Strong Defense and Wish/Protect are a good combination to get heal.
That's good?
The problem with that set is that it doesn't have an attacking move, which means that it is easy setup bait for sweepers. Also, slurpuff is banned from NU :P
Edit: Welcome to Smogon!
 
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Hi sorry I think Mega Glalie is broken and stuff because n_n

Uh the counters I've gotten from people are Steelix, Piloswine, and Prinplup (bruh). tl;dr two Pokemon without reliable recovery and tbf not that good in the metagame right now bar beating Mega Glalie, considering Piloswine had no real niche over Rhydon/Steelix/Uxie/Mesprit in terms of setting up Rocks, it just wasn't that good. And Prinplulp has no reliable recovery and frankly just an ass Pokemon tbh I don't understand the hype, but I guess people like running 252 / 252+ / 252+ sets somehow and says it beats the whole metagame. I guess a pissweak Pokemon that is easily switched into by 80% of the metagame is cool... Anyways this is the set I've been using.

Glalie (M) @ Glalitite
Trait: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Super Fang
- Ice Shard / Taunt / Doesn't matter cuz broken
- Explosion
- Double-Edge

Double-Edge is a very strong move, totaling 234 after factoring in Refridgerate and STAB, making it an incredibly strong move and making Earthquake not as useful, although Double-Edge wears it down noticeably, it does a shitload more than Return and the damage is definitely noticeable. The only Pokemon worth having Earthquake for is Klinklang and like 120 HP Klinklang takes 36-43% from a Jolly Double-Edge. And of course takes 77% from an Explosion from Mega Glalie. I just find it way too easy to get at least 2 kills per game with this, Super Fang brings its counters down to low amounts of HP to where Double-Edge can kill it. Of course I'm not saying I ALWAYS Super Fang whenever a /counter/ switches in, and I flawlessly get every prediction right to the question of "Will he go to his counter or fodder this fearing Super Fang," because that's not true. But it gets insanely easy for Glalie to work around its counters with Super Fang. Ice Shard allows it to pick Pokemon off that attempt to revenge it at low health, but it's definitely the most replaceable move. Taunt allows it to stop any healing or stuff from things like Miltank that are able to switch-in thanks to Thick Fat. But yeah, everything else is pretty explainable.

There's nothing that can reliably switch into Mega Glalie with Super Fang, esp. since two popular switch-ins to Mega Glalie are apparently Piloswine and Prinplup, are permanently at 50% or lower after taking Super Fang, and any previous damage on them means Double-Edge is sometimes able to kill after the Super Fang. And honestly I think that Double-Edge recoil / possible Stealth Rock damage on Mega Glalie do not heavily take away from its effectiveness, and that its raw power, above average Speed tier, and ability to wear down its counters with great consistency is what makes it broken.

QUADRUPLE ICE-TYPE GLALIE AS FUCK

Bronzor @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Gyro Ball
- Protect

252+ Atk Refrigerate Glalie Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Bronzor: 70-83 (22 - 26.1%) -- 5.4% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Bronzor Gyro Ball (131 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Glalie: 122-146 (40.5 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 

Cased

Banned deucer.

Bronzor @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Gyro Ball
- Protect

252+ Atk Refrigerate Glalie Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Bronzor: 70-83 (22 - 26.1%) -- 5.4% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Bronzor Gyro Ball (131 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Glalie: 122-146 (40.5 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Super Fang Glalie takes half out this thing on the switch, also after that Double-Edge has a decent-ish chance to 2hko after Rocks :]

This is exactly what I mean about Glalie's easy ability to take out its counters with relative ease
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
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I mean like, Super Fang does allow Mega Glalie to KO stuff easier, but the fact that there are things that still survive Mega Glalie's attack after being Super Fanged means they already make good checks. I also don't see what the huge hullabaloo about Super Fang is considering that 3 Double-Edges doesn't beat down Hariyama and Mega Steelix any slower than Super Fang + 2 Double-Edges anyway (I will admit that it makes a difference against Piloswine, as that takes 4 Double-Edges to KO). Sure, Mega Glalie suffers less recoil with the Super Fang route, but the fact that it doesn't 2HKO those Pokemon means it can get forced out, and bringing it back in is no easy task.

Honestly I feel Super Fang Mega Glalie, on the surface level, works in a similiar fashion to Typhlosion: come in, nuke shit, try not to get forced out or you'll have a tough time coming back in due to hazards and general fraility (+ typing in Glalie's case), keep an eye on your health, etc... Granted, Mega Glalie has numerous other wallbreaking options at its disposal, particularly Explosion and Spikes (being by far the best offensive setter of them in the metagame), which makes it very versatile and powerful, but I never found it to be too much to handle, both using it and facing it. I'd say Pangoro is probably unhealthier for the meta since it can easily sweep through un-overprepared defensive teams by its lonesome (most defensive teams have like a singular response to Pangoro, while everything else on their team risks a pounding); it doesn't even have to brutalize itself like Mega Glalie to do so.
 

Deej Dy

Verified Ladder Scurb 乁( ◔ ౪◔)ㄏ
It's not forgettable, we are just tired of having to keep posting about it, it is quite apparent the vast majority want it at the very least suspected. I'm waiting for an attempt by a Mod to implement it. I'd rather not post about Smashpass every time I get on Smogon personally.
Also the buff for Huntail sucker punch kills the scarf Rotom argument ;/
 

Cased

Banned deucer.
I mean like, Super Fang does allow Mega Glalie to KO stuff easier, but the fact that there are things that still survive Mega Glalie's attack after being Super Fanged means they already make good checks. I also don't see what the huge hullabaloo about Super Fang is considering that 3 Double-Edges doesn't beat down Hariyama and Mega Steelix any slower than Super Fang + 2 Double-Edges anyway (I will admit that it makes a difference against Piloswine, as that takes 4 Double-Edges to KO). Sure, Mega Glalie suffers less recoil with the Super Fang route, but the fact that it doesn't 2HKO those Pokemon means it can get forced out, and bringing it back in is no easy task.
Because clearly Hariyama / Mega Steelix / Piloswine have no reliable recovery outside of Rest, and Super Fang allows them to take half of that damage immediately.

Mega Steelix calc: 252 Atk Refrigerate Glalie Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 115-136 (32.4 - 38.4%) -- 2.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hariyama: 252 Atk Refrigerate Glalie Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 128 Def Thick Fat Hariyama: 151-178 (35.1 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Piloswine: 252 Atk Refrigerate Glalie Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Thick Fat Piloswine: 97-115 (24 - 28.4%) -- 96.9% chance to 4HKO I'm just gonna go ahead and assume people run some Def EVs but w.e

All of these Pokemon unable to switch-in and wall anything else after taking a Super Fang, if you don't see all the "hullabaloo" about a Pokemon that uses Super Fang in order to basically make anything that counters it useless besides things with Recovery, and things that beat Mega Glalie that have Recovery are:

Max Defense Thick Fat Miltank

Mega Glalie literally gets past 80% of its counters with relative ease considering after Super Fang at any time they're basically never able to switch into Glalie again, if you're wondering what the "hullbaloo" or whatever ban me please phrase that was

Honestly I feel Super Fang Mega Glalie, on the surface level, works in a similiar fashion to Typhlosion: come in, nuke shit, try not to get forced out or you'll have a tough time coming back in due to hazards and general fraility (+ typing in Glalie's case), keep an eye on your health, etc... Granted, Mega Glalie has numerous other wallbreaking options at its disposal, particularly Explosion and Spikes (being by far the best offensive setter of them in the metagame), which makes it very versatile and powerful, but I never found it to be too much to handle, both using it and facing it. I'd say Pangoro is probably unhealthier for the meta since it can easily sweep through un-overprepared defensive teams by its lonesome (most defensive teams have like a singular response to Pangoro, while everything else on their team risks a pounding); it doesn't even have to brutalize itself like Mega Glalie to do so.

Pangoro's 58 Speed is horrendus, 95 / 78 / 71 doesn't really make up for its lackluster Speed. It has resistances to Ghost / Dark / Rock-types and has the immunity to Psychic but almost every Psychic and Ghost in NU currently has the room to run Dazzling Gleam at anytime, and if they don't then they all outpace Pangoro because it's depressingly slow. The metagame barely had to adapt, and I use the word adapt very loosely considering the only thing Dazzling Gleam doesn't allow you to hit is Steelix. So there's not much adapting going on.

Here's what I want to single out though lol

I'd say Pangoro is probably unhealthier for the meta since it can easily sweep through un-overprepared defensive teams by its lonesome (most defensive teams have like a singular response to Pangoro, while everything else on their team risks a pounding); it doesn't even have to brutalize itself like Mega Glalie to do so
So basically what you're trying to tell me is that if you don't run a single switch-in on defensive teams (Defensive as in apparently nothing with anything faster than 58 Base Speed) to Pangoro. Like Garbodor / Granbull / Weezing / Qwilfish / Phys Def Vileplume moonblast or not) are all pretty solid options to beat Pangoro, and Pokemon like Gurdurr have the ability to switch-in to it, although that's not a dedicated wall like the former 4 I posted about.

But... I can't wrap my head around what a "un-overpreapred" defensive team actually is. Is it too hard running a plethora of Pokemon to beat Pangoro, given that 3 out of the 5 walls mentioned are able to set-up hazards it should be pretty easy to beat Pangoro on a regular basis. Considering I have been running bulky slow shit occasionally and have had no problem with Pangoro. But by your logic, it's too hard beating Typhlosion because even though I have a Lanturn and/or Hariyama, the rest of my team fears an Eruption from it.
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
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Because clearly Hariyama / Mega Steelix / Piloswine have no reliable recovery outside of Rest, and Super Fang allows them to take half of that damage immediately.

Mega Steelix calc: 252 Atk Refrigerate Glalie Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 115-136 (32.4 - 38.4%) -- 2.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hariyama: 252 Atk Refrigerate Glalie Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 128 Def Thick Fat Hariyama: 151-178 (35.1 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Piloswine: 252 Atk Refrigerate Glalie Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Thick Fat Piloswine: 97-115 (24 - 28.4%) -- 96.9% chance to 4HKO I'm just gonna go ahead and assume people run some Def EVs but w.e
Mega Steelix cannot hold Leftovers, just saying. Double-Edge has a 98.3% chance to 3HKO Mega Steelix.

All of these Pokemon unable to switch-in and wall anything else after taking a Super Fang, if you don't see all the "hullabaloo" about a Pokemon that uses Super Fang in order to basically make anything that counters it useless besides things with Recovery, and things that beat Mega Glalie that have Recovery are:

Max Defense Thick Fat Miltank

Mega Glalie literally gets past 80% of its counters with relative ease considering after Super Fang at any time they're basically never able to switch into Glalie again, if you're wondering what the "hullbaloo" or whatever ban me please phrase that was
In this context, if I simply replace 'Super Fang' with 'Double-Edge', the very same scenario applies to all of them (except Piloswine), because Double-Edge's damage approaches Super Fang's damage anyway (in terms of 3HKOing targets), except Double-Edge can still threaten its main targets as opposed to dealing only 50% to them on the off chance they choose to stay in, without the need to predict with Super Fang. I am not doubting Mega Glalie's wallbreaking ability, what I am doubting is Super Fang's usefulness on it as it just seems incredibly overhyped since it only hits a fair few targets significantly harder than Double-Edge already does. Sure, Super Fang can see use on more conservative Mega Glalie users (which are probably using Return over Double-Edge if they are conservative in the first place), but it occupies a moveslot that could allow Mega Glalie to fend off more targets that Super Fang by itself wouldn't help much against, such as Freeze-Dry, Earthquake, Ice Shard, Spikes, and even Taunt (to fuck with Miltank).

Pangoro's 58 Speed is horrendus, 95 / 78 / 71 doesn't really make up for its lackluster Speed. It has resistances to Ghost / Dark / Rock-types and has the immunity to Psychic but almost every Psychic and Ghost in NU currently has the room to run Dazzling Gleam at anytime, and if they don't then they all outpace Pangoro because it's depressingly slow. The metagame barely had to adapt, and I use the word adapt very loosely considering the only thing Dazzling Gleam doesn't allow you to hit is Steelix. So there's not much adapting going on.
No doubt Pangoro is not as much of a hassle for faster teams to deal with. The issue I find with Pangoro is how much pressure it applies to most defensive teams. Single-handedly. I'll elaborate on this below...

So basically what you're trying to tell me is that if you don't run a single switch-in on defensive teams (Defensive as in apparently nothing with anything faster than 58 Base Speed) to Pangoro. Like Garbodor / Granbull / Weezing / Qwilfish / Phys Def Vileplume moonblast or not) are all pretty solid options to beat Pangoro, and Pokemon like Gurdurr have the ability to switch-in to it, although that's not a dedicated wall like the former 4 I posted about.
The bolded part makes me believe you've little experience how a wallbreaker Pangoro works; wallbreaker Pangoro runs max speed, which outruns an absolutely huge majority of the walls in the tier, since it is not nearly as slow as Dragalge and Mega Camerupt. Those defensive measures you've mentioned can be very easily beaten if they don't tailor their movesets accordingly or even simply encounter the wrong set:

- Garbodor needs ~120 Speed EVs to even stand a chance against Pangoro, otherwise it gets OHKOed by +2 Life Orb Knock Off before it can do anything. Even if it does outspeed Panda and land a Drain Punch (albeit uninvested) off, the combined damage of max damage Drain Punch, Rocky Helmet, Life Orb, and Aftermath would...leave Pangoro at 4%. It doesn't even get KOed from all that, and you need to ensure it doesn't get a Drain Punch off afterward too. This doesn't even go into the fact that attempting this would cost Garbodor valuable bulk it would like to have against other Pokemon in the tier, such as Kangaskhan, Zangoose, and Sawk, essentially rendering it less effective overall.
- Granbull gets OHKOed by +1 (after Intimidate) Life Orb Gunk Shot, and is KOed by +1 non-LO Gunk Shot after SR. The very same applies to Togetic.
- Weezing is one of the more solid counters to Pangoro, but even then it has several things to watch out for. If you see Mold Breaker, you can kiss your chances of walling Pangoro with Weezing goodbye right there (thus forcing you to pack another check). However, Weezing can always get caught off guard by things like Taunt, Substitute, and Lum Berry, meaning it can get beaten down by Pangoro before it can handle the threat. Alternatively, all Pangoro has to do is hit Weezing on the switch with a Knock Off right off the bat (dealing ~42-50%), prevent Weezing from healing too much with Pain Split using weakened teammates, then simply plow through Weezing with +2 non-item Knock Off later on.
- Qwilfish is again one of the more solid Pangoro responses, however it faces much the same issues as Weezing does. While Qwilfish takes less damage from Pangoro by virtue of Intimidate, lacking a burning move (outside of Scald) means that it cannot cripple Pangoro as hard as Weezing does.
- Vileplume gets flat out OHKOed a majority of the time by +2 Life Orb Knock Off (93.8% chance to OHKO), and easily dying after any sort of residual damage. Relying on Effect Spore to save you is hardly reliable.
- If Gurdurr eats a Knock Off on the switch, it can do nothing about Swords Dance Pangoro next time Panda comes in. To add insult to injury, Pangoro's +2 Drain Punch will easily heal most, if not all the damage sustained by Gurdurr's Mach Punch, so Gurdurr won't even leave a lasting impression.

If these Pokemon fall to Pangoro, the rest of your defensive Pokemon are likely to follow suit.

But... I can't wrap my head around what a "un-overpreapred" defensive team actually is. Is it too hard running a plethora of Pokemon to beat Pangoro, given that 3 out of the 5 walls mentioned are able to set-up hazards it should be pretty easy to beat Pangoro on a regular basis. Considering I have been running bulky slow shit occasionally and have had no problem with Pangoro. But by your logic, it's too hard beating Typhlosion because even though I have a Lanturn and/or Hariyama, the rest of my team fears an Eruption from it.
You probably got off lucky not facing off against the Pangoro sets that are tailored to dismantle stall (Choice Band Pangoro is not as good as Swords Dance Pangoro at doing so). The scenarios I've listed above means that you need to prepare 2 responses for Pangoro alone in order to safely keep it in check, as Pangoro can easily afford different tweaks to its moveset which can vastly change its counters while hardly sacrificing any effectiveness on its part, and often times by the time you've figured out the tech Pangoro is running it can be too late. Very few other wallbreakers in NU has forced defensive teams to run 2 dedicated counters to it despite their varying sets, and they are nowhere near as devastating as Pangoro. Compared to something like Typhlosion and even Mega Glalie, Pangoro has a boosting move, a powerful spammable attack that removes held items, just enough bulk to shrug off uninvested neutral attacks, and to top it off, Pangoro can heal while doing damage, which only augments its bulk even further. Just to rub it in, it resists Stealth Rock as well.
 
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Cased

Banned deucer.
Mega Steelix cannot hold Leftovers, just saying. Double-Edge has a 98.3% chance to 3HKO Mega Steelix.
Nice to see we're being nitpicking little ban me pleases cuz xd

In this context, if I simply replace 'Super Fang' with 'Double-Edge', the very same scenario applies to all of them (except Piloswine), because Double-Edge's damage approaches Super Fang's damage anyway (in terms of 3HKOing targets), except Double-Edge can still threaten its main targets as opposed to dealing only 50% to them on the off chance they choose to stay in, without the need to predict with Super Fang. I am not doubting Mega Glalie's wallbreaking ability, what I am doubting is Super Fang's usefulness on it as it just seems incredibly overhyped since it only hits a fair few targets significantly harder than Double-Edge already does. Sure, Super Fang can see use on more conservative Mega Glalie users (which are probably using Return over Double-Edge if they are conservative in the first place), but it occupies a moveslot that could allow Mega Glalie to fend off more targets that Super Fang by itself wouldn't help much against, such as Freeze-Dry, Earthquake, Ice Shard, Spikes, and even Taunt (to fuck with Miltank).
Except Super Fang doesn't make you take recoil damage and does considerably more damage than Double-Edge. Super Fang / Double-Edge / Ice Shard / Filler in Taunt or Explosion or w.e. That's the set, why even replace Double-Edge with Super Fang in that scenario where it's pretty clear to tell what Super Fang does, considering unlike Double-Edge it takes a giant chunk out of the Pokemon that actually do wall Mega Glalie. EQ does absolutely nothing besides hit Klinklang and that blows in the metagame right now due to all the checks/counters floating around the tier. There's no 4MSS man, unless you want Freeze Dry to beat a single Pokemon, a Pokemon that gets wrecked by Double-Edge. Super Fang / Double-Edge / Ice Shard / Filler, you can put whatever you want here. I don't see what else there is to elaborate on. Considering more than half of the counters mentioned have no reliable recovery, Super Fang is a fantastic move and arguably Glalie's best move...

The bolded part makes me believe you've little experience how a wallbreaker Pangoro works; wallbreaker Pangoro runs max speed, which outruns an absolutely huge majority of the walls in the tier, since it is not nearly as slow as Dragalge and Mega Camerupt. Those defensive measures you've mentioned can be very easily beaten if they don't tailor their movesets accordingly or even simply encounter the wrong set:
Before I get into the hilarious fact that you can somehow run Taunt / Gunk Shot / KNock Off / Drain Punch / Swords Dance / Iron Fist / Mold Breaker / You automatically gain a Swords Dance somehow out of nowhere. You should probably stick to a moveset or two if you want an argument that isn't hilarious.

- Garbodor needs ~120 Speed EVs to even stand a chance against Pangoro, otherwise it gets OHKOed by +2 Life Orb Knock Off before it can do anything. Even if it does outspeed Panda and land a Drain Punch (albeit uninvested) off, the combined damage of max damage Drain Punch, Rocky Helmet, Life Orb, and Aftermath would...leave Pangoro at 4%. It doesn't even get KOed from all that, and you need to ensure it doesn't get a Drain Punch off afterward too. This doesn't even go into the fact that attempting this would cost Garbodor valuable bulk it would like to have against other Pokemon in the tier, such as Kangaskhan, Zangoose, and Sawk, essentially rendering it less effective overall.
Ah Life Orb SD Gunk Shot, there it is. I guess in a perfect world we can all have Swords Dance right when we come in and there's nothing that happens. Even if +2 Life Orb Knock Off does do that much to Garbodor, it doesn't even need to outpace. If you have Drain Punch (Most do), you're basically going to do well against Pangoro, esp. considering you said yourself you are basically at 4% (best case scenario, unless your Pangoro is always at 100%) so I mean you kinda just sacced your "Stallbreaker" to a single Stall Pokemon. lol.

- Granbull gets OHKOed by +1 (after Intimidate) Life Orb Gunk Shot, and is KOed by +1 non-LO Gunk Shot after SR. The very same applies to Togetic.
I wish I could pack Gunk Shot whenever I wanted to, I wonder what other moves you have on your Pangoro, I guess after reading Weezing I'll find out.

Weezing is one of the more solid counters to Pangoro, but even then it has several things to watch out for. If you see Mold Breaker, you can kiss your chances of walling Pangoro with Weezing goodbye right there (thus forcing you to pack another check). However, Weezing can always get caught off guard by things like Taunt, Substitute, and Lum Berry, meaning it can get beaten down by Pangoro before it can handle the threat. Alternatively, all Pangoro has to do is hit Weezing on the switch with a Knock Off right off the bat (dealing ~42-50%), prevent Weezing from healing too much with Pain Split using weakened teammates, then simply plow through Weezing with +2 non-item Knock Off later on.
Ah I forgot Pangoro can also pack Life Orb / Lum Berry and combine Earthquake and Substitute with its sets. Weezing Sludge Bomb or Flamethrower does a fair amount to Pangoro, considering bad Defenses so Weezing is a pretty good damn way to take on Pangoro reliably. Unless you run the lord set you do with 10 moves and items.

- Qwilfish is again one of the more solid Pangoro responses, however it faces much the same issues as Weezing does. While Qwilfish takes less damage from Pangoro by virtue of Intimidate, lacking a burning move (outside of Scald) means that it cannot cripple Pangoro as hard as Weezing does.
I don't really see the issues it faces besides losing to the 10 moves set. If you have room for Gunk Shot Swords Dance Knock Off and Drain Punch. Surely you can't have room for Taunt / Substitute or Earthquake like you mentioned in Weezing.

- Vileplume gets flat out OHKOed a majority of the time by +2 Life Orb Knock Off (93.8% chance to OHKO), and easily dying after any sort of residual damage. Relying on Effect Spore to save you is hardly reliable.
Aight that's cool idc lol fuck vileplume

- If Gurdurr eats a Knock Off on the switch, it can do nothing about Swords Dance Pangoro next time Panda comes in. To add insult to injury, Pangoro's +2 Drain Punch will easily heal most, if not all the damage sustained by Gurdurr's Mach Punch, so Gurdurr won't even leave a lasting impression.
Gurdurr is a check not a counter lol, it's not your first switch-in to Pangoro at any time, Mach Punch does around half with Mach Punch so it can be easy to take on Pangoro since Life Orb Damage / Its counters are hit by Knock Off not DPunch

If these Pokemon fall to Pangoro, the rest of your defensive Pokemon are likely to follow suit.
REALLY? Man, I didn't know that if my Typhlosion counters are dead, my team isn't destroyed by Fire Blasts or Eruptions. That goes for every damn Pokemon, if you remove their counters, no shit that you're probably not going to be able to handle it. You have to at least make some good plays to keep your counter to threatening Pokemon alive all game. Unless sometimes you just can't do anything like getting Super Fang'd by Mega Glalie and there's not much you can do there,,,

But yeah, you can't just randomly claim something is broken solely because you lose to it after your checks/counters die and you're not running a fair amount of the counters. And if you're not running anything that outpaces 236 then yeah you'll lose to some blatantly powerful things, and honestly a lot of those things aren't Pangoro lol

EDIT: No shit if you lose your counters to Pangoro it'll break Stall

15:09FLCLyo
15:09FLCLpangoro is a monster
15:09FLCLit wrecks stall
15:09FLCLif its counters are gone!


You probably got off lucky not facing off against the Pangoro sets that are tailored to dismantle stall (Choice Band Pangoro is not as good as Swords Dance Pangoro at doing so). The scenarios I've listed above means that you need to prepare 2 responses for Pangoro alone in order to safely keep it in check, as Pangoro can easily afford different tweaks to its moveset which can vastly change its counters while hardly sacrificing any effectiveness on its part
,

Oh you're right, I got off lucky by not facing the set of champions:

Pangoro (F) @ Life Orb / Lum Berry
Trait: Iron Fist / Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk), Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Gunk Shot
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Taunt
- Substitute

Compared to something like Typhlosion and even Mega Glalie, Pangoro has a boosting move, a powerful spammable attack that removes held items, just enough bulk to shrug off uninvested neutral attacks, and to top it off, Pangoro can heal while doing damage, which only augments its bulk even further. Just to rub it in, it resists Stealth Rock as well.
Ah, except Pangoro has no priority whatsoever and is easily revenge killed by a lot of the metagame after getting a meaningless boost and not even at +2 it can handle a lot of the Defensive Pokemon mentioned. Except Typhlosion's Specs Eruption or Fire Blast hits basically everything hard and Mega Glalie gets past its counters with two moves instead of 7/8.
 
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soulgazer

I FEEL INFINITE
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TLDR you guys are overestimating Pangoro

now I would like to know real arguments on why M-Glalie isn't broken (please, no hariyama arguments).

Do you guys enjoy using one of Avalugg / Walrein / Metang / Piloswine / PhDef Hariyama / Torkoal / Max Defense Miltank / Steelix / Gurdurr (doesn't even KO with Mach Punch after SR) on every teams to deal with it?
 

Cased

Banned deucer.
Soulgazer what are you talking about I love running Pokemon that were ranked C or lower during the entirety of XY in order to solely beat a Pokemon because everything else dies to it

Can't imagine what happens when I bring up Typhlosion as broken after this tier becomes healthier
 
So y'all are complainin about Mega-Glalie being broken but, like cased briefly mentioned as a switch-in in his post, Miltank is actually a fantastic switch-in.


Miltank (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock / Heal Bell
- Body Slam
- Milk Drink
- Thunder Wave / Toxic

Miltank is jumpin in to say no way to Mega Glalie while being able to heal off damage with Milk Drink, Taunt is a thing but tbh the damage is negligible and you can just Body Slam and paralyze it not to mention Taunt is rather uncommon on Mega Glalie. Stealth Rock or Heal Bell depending on what sort of support you want to run for your team. Body Slam is for spreading paralysis and damage, you can also use: Return / Double-Edge / Seismic Toss for more damage or guaranteed damage. Milk Drink is obviously for regaining HP, while the next slot is open for w/e status move you see fit to run. With the rise in usage not a bad mon to be slappin on to patch up that Mega Glalie weakness.

252 Atk Refrigerate Glalie Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Miltank: 72-85 (18.2 - 21.5%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Refrigerate Glalie Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Miltank: 84-100 (21.3 - 25.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Refrigerate Glalie Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Miltank: 175-207 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

For comparison to the most common Thick Fat user Hariyama with the mixed defensive spread, which doesn't have access to recovery and is easily worn down having to check so much:

252 Atk Refrigerate Glalie Return vs. 0 HP / 128 Def Thick Fat Hariyama: 129-153 (30 - 35.6%) -- 26% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Refrigerate Glalie Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 128 Def Thick Fat Hariyama: 151-178 (35.1 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Refrigerate Glalie Explosion vs. 0 HP / 128 Def Thick Fat Hariyama: 313-370 (72.9 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
>:|

that set is terrible, mono attacking normal is like the worse thing ever created, not even curse.

so how is that a check? taking 50% from super fang + free spikes in the best case possible and you're fucked.

free glalie and pangorou :3
 
Sawk is superior to Pangoro anyway...

Same attack (Sawk's is actually a tiny bit higher), but Sawk is much faster, and they have the exact same coverage (gunk shot over poison jab on pangoro). Sawk also has Sturdy which makes it actually useful against offense, as opposed to pangoro, who has trouble breaking faster/more offensive teams.
 

Ares

Fool me...can't get fooled again
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>:|

that set is terrible, mono attacking normal is like the worse thing ever created, not even curse.

so how is that a check? taking 50% from super fang + free spikes in the best case possible and you're fucked.

free glalie and pangorou :3
So you can take 50% from Super Fang and heal it off, if the opponent really wants to sack their Glalie to take out Miltank then its done its job. After testing if rocks are up then it has a good chance take out Miltank with Super Fang + Explosion; however, you are then down a Glalie and tbh I don't mind that trade off as Miltank will probably have already gotten up rocks at that point and then has done its job of taking on M-Glalie. Also its clearly not ment to take out Pokemon as its a support Pokemon and idk how you can call something that offers a ton of support to a team a bad option, seeing as it can free up Heal Bell and Stealth Rock from your team build and also allows you to have a good check (nearly a counter) to Mega Glalie. I'm not claiming that Miltank is an A / S rank mon, I'm saying that it isn't a bad option to consider when building a team.

tl;dr Don't knock something just because you have preconceived notions on how bad something is, if you want to just play with the same 6 mons from A rank fine, doesn't mean you have to say other stuff is bad when its not.
 
I cant tell how much broken is Pangoro in NU but actually I can see him being healthy for the NU metagame, why? My main issue with this tier is the lack of solid answers to psychic/ghost types because NU lost Skuntank and Spiritomb, the only dark types allowed are pretty frail (see: pawniard, cacturne, liepard or sneasel). So Pangoro give an hard time to these types on this tier (like forcing Mesprit to use Dazzling Gleam) making everything a bit more balance.

Montsegur Glalie gets Taunt ;_;
 

Ares

Fool me...can't get fooled again
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Montsegur Glalie gets Taunt ;_;
So then you are running Taunt and Super Fang just to beat Miltank?

Edit: Also I think the meta needs a chance to adapt to the big threats like Pangoro and M-Glalie. Obviously they are top tier wallbreakers, but people running different things to account for them will probably end up keeping them in check. See for instance running gleam on Psychic-types again.

Edit, Edit @ Below: If RU takes Pangoro...................imma be a sad panda
 

marilli

With you
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Championis a Former Other Tournament Circuit Champion
I think pangoro's perfectly fine but Glalie is just bs. Punchshroom talked about defensive teams not being viable without being overprepared ~because of pangoro~ but there's lot more reasons (Glalie XD) why a fully defensive team just turns dysfunctional. Also if the argument about how you should also think about SD Pangoro, the set 'that is more problematic because it beats defensive teams better' well then Super Fang lets Glalie beat defensive teams just as well if not better. Note that Glalie's actually much better vs offense.

I also have a bad feeling RU's gonna take pangoro...
 

soulgazer

I FEEL INFINITE
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We have been trying to adapt to M-Glalie for a while Montsegur and its still forcing me to run what I named in my post above or forcing me to run stuff able to outspeed it and KO M-Glalie, which can be hard (and lets add that nothing faster than Glalie can switch on it.. so that means something will die just so you can force it out).

Pangoro on the other hand isn't hard to deal with.
 

Ares

Fool me...can't get fooled again
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Pangoro on the other hand isn't hard to deal with.
So what have you been using to deal with the threat that is Pangoro? Cause a ton of people have been having trouble dealing with it, personally I've had two different checks and just used predictions / double switching to force it out. But I'd love to hear what you've been using to deal with it.
 
So then you are running Taunt and Super Fang just to beat Miltank?

Edit: Also I think the meta needs a chance to adapt to the big threats like Pangoro and M-Glalie. Obviously they are top tier wallbreakers, but people running different things to account for them will probably end up keeping them in check. See for instance running gleam on Psychic-types again.

Edit, Edit @ Below: If RU takes Pangoro...................imma be a sad panda
Taunt is pretty great on Mega-Glalie, beats defoggers w/o using Explosion for example and overall pressure lot of things, is probably a more agressive option but still better than Ice Shard or non-STAB moves so you have a room to use Taunt anyways.
 

soulgazer

I FEEL INFINITE
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
anything above base 58 spe

dazzling gleam on psychic-types

most of what cased talked about in his post.

also Glalie only really needs like Double-Edge, Explosion, and then fillers. Super Fang, Taunt, Ice Shard, Freeze-Dry, or maybe even Spikes. All you need is choose what your team needs Glalie to do and it will do it.
 

The Goomy

Whitest Mexican Alive
My thoughts on both the Glalie and Pangoro debates:

Glalie: Is it even a question that thing thing is too strong for NU? It's easily the best offensive Spikes setter in the tier, as it beats every spinner (barring Cryogonal which is ass in this tier), it can Taunt Defoggers, and it beats Xatu. In addition, it's just strong as shit tbh. It's extremely limited switchins are easily predictable and can be double switched on. Or you can just 2HKO them with Double Edge. The utility on this mon is incredible. And people acting like Hariyama is a problem for Glalie clearly don't see that Yama doesn't get recovery and it's easily worn down with hazards + a partner like Typh or even Garbodor on balance. This thing tears offense a new one, and stall can struggle to beat it too b/c of it's spikes/taunt capabilities. All in all, this thing is a sack of shit because it even beats lord Prin.

Pangoro: Versace Python Cased makes a p good point with this..

Pangoro (F) @ Life Orb / Lum Berry
Trait: Iron Fist / Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk), Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Gunk Shot
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Taunt
- Substitute

The set of champions..lol.

Although I don't think Pangoro is broken in this meta, I do think it's incredibly unhealthy. The reason it's unhealthy is because it is nearly impossible for balanced teams to beat Panda w/o running a dedicated counter, which doesn't really fit into that team archetype. Although Panda is relatively slow and doesn't have the best typing (on paper), it's typing allows it a lot of free attacks against offensive teams (against pretty much anything that can't OHKO it, it's gonna get a kill). It's stall breaking potential is obvious with access to Taunt and SD (the best set). I just feel like it's impossible to prepare for every set with one team unless you're running HO (outspeed and kill w/everything) or full stall (2-3 "counters"). I know you can't run every set at once, but every team just straight loses to one set imo, and they're all equally viable. Which brings me to the viability rankings thread..

"S Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths."

I feel like Panda deserves to be S rank because of the Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively portion. It can run a banded, scarf, taunt SD, SD 3 attacks, SubSD, and even LO effectively.

Like I said, it will take time to see if this thing is broken, but it's definitely one of the best and influential mons in the tier.


EDIT: Typo..rip
 
Can we get a discussion going for Seviper? Most sets are outdated and with ORAS Move Tutor, Seviper now has re-access to the previous Transfer Only moves baring Sucker Punch. I've asked around in IRC, /r/Stunfisk and NU forum section but told to post here.
 
Can we get a discussion going for Seviper? Most sets are outdated and with ORAS Move Tutor, Seviper now has re-access to the previous Transfer Only moves baring Sucker Punch. I've asked around in IRC, /r/Stunfisk and NU forum section but told to post here.
Seviper is terrible. Its physical coil set is completely outclassed by Arbok, so I would use a special one if I were to ever use one. That being said, it is frail and slow, and its sp atk isnt that great either. All in all it is one of the worst pokemon in the game. If you want to win id recommend you choose something else. Not much to discuss imo.
 
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