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np: Stage 3 - Family Reunion ("This Is Why I Created" Remix)
- Thread starter Jumpman16
- Start date
Garchomp's Speed is such that it's basically a Base 100 pokemon (i.e. Salamence, Zapdos, Flygon) which doesn't have to deal with a 50/50 speed tie against said pokemon. It's decent but susceptible to the exact same things you'd use to revenge a MixMence (or other non-DD variants), including Ice Shard users and Scizor/Lucario. Garchomp does have a little more natural bulk, however.
CB Garchomp is nothing special. CB Salamence is basically the same pokémon with different resistances. (Notably SR-weak, but also packing a Fighting resist + Intimidate, 4x Grass resist, Water resist.) Any Choice or LO Dragon is going to punch holes through anything and everything with the overpowered new Outrage and Draco Meteor that exist in this generation. Kingdra may well even be the most dangerous one, though it requires a little extra support (Rain Dance).
Garchomp does not need a Life Orb to produce the power of Salamence or many other powerful pokemon, such as Gyarados and T-Tar, all of whom have access only to DD. (Lucario, however...) On the flip side, it never has the speed that the DDers get. (Priority in the case of Lucario.) This makes Garchomp more successful at "wallbreaking" and otherwise dealing with "stall" pokemon, none of which are looking to outspeed you anyway, but weaker at dealing with offensive teams who might be packing stuff like Azelf or Gengar, things which deliver a heavy blow to Garchomp but get outsped and killed by a buffed Salamence (sans Scarf).
CB Garchomp is nothing special. CB Salamence is basically the same pokémon with different resistances. (Notably SR-weak, but also packing a Fighting resist + Intimidate, 4x Grass resist, Water resist.) Any Choice or LO Dragon is going to punch holes through anything and everything with the overpowered new Outrage and Draco Meteor that exist in this generation. Kingdra may well even be the most dangerous one, though it requires a little extra support (Rain Dance).
The point is you cannot switch anything into Garchomp without taking massive damage. Sure he can be stopped, but not until he's removed your check for something else, allowing them to sweep. It's the Support Characteristic, really. Garchomp can break any wall and 1-2HKO the vast majority of the metagame on its own, allowing the pokemon that wall checked to sweep.
Also, it can boost it's speed, I've actually seen (and been utterly destroyed by) a sub/SD/salac set, raising his speed by 1 stage allows him to outspeed all the threats I've listed while being behind a sub and probably at at least +2. That and it's completely unexpected as CB/Scarf/Yache are the typical items for a Garchomp.
Also worth noting that Salamence does not get STAB Earthquake, instead having the largely useless (except for the ground immunity) Flying as a secondary type.
Not all of them are really that "broken". Some, of course. I played on Suspect on the last week of the deadline. Didn't plan to qualify for voting, but simply entered for fun and to gain some opinions on the suspects.
So...the six suspects, and what I think of them.
-Shaymin-S: Bothersome Serene Grace. Frail for Uber. Annoying for OU. Borderline btw OU and Uber. Up to the majority vote.
-Garchomp: 5th slowest of the bunch. Can take hit(s). Wallbreaker>Sweeper. Potential OU material once more. If in Sandstorm, Sandveil raises the minority voices for cleaner fight, although does provide the opponent the insight of the team structure which becomes an advantage/disadvantage. Still up to the majority voting.
-Latios: Overpowering Draco Meteor. Overshadows Latias. Extremely Uber prejudice.
-Manaphy: Slowest of the bunch. Great addition to Rain Dance. An addition to the 100s stats pixies. Potential sweep with couples of Tail Glow, except opened to revenge killing w/o any speed boost. Somewhat OU material.
-Latias: Is shadow of Latios. Weaker damage. A nuisance Calm Minder, but manageable. Still an OU material.
-Deoxys-S (Extreme Dual Screen-Hazard Entry Combo'er lead. Extreme immediate Uber prejudice. Wait, this one was already deported to Uber since the early stage of the test...)
I would predict a playful half for OU and Uber.
So...the six suspects, and what I think of them.
-Shaymin-S: Bothersome Serene Grace. Frail for Uber. Annoying for OU. Borderline btw OU and Uber. Up to the majority vote.
-Garchomp: 5th slowest of the bunch. Can take hit(s). Wallbreaker>Sweeper. Potential OU material once more. If in Sandstorm, Sandveil raises the minority voices for cleaner fight, although does provide the opponent the insight of the team structure which becomes an advantage/disadvantage. Still up to the majority voting.
-Latios: Overpowering Draco Meteor. Overshadows Latias. Extremely Uber prejudice.
-Manaphy: Slowest of the bunch. Great addition to Rain Dance. An addition to the 100s stats pixies. Potential sweep with couples of Tail Glow, except opened to revenge killing w/o any speed boost. Somewhat OU material.
-Latias: Is shadow of Latios. Weaker damage. A nuisance Calm Minder, but manageable. Still an OU material.
-Deoxys-S (Extreme Dual Screen-Hazard Entry Combo'er lead. Extreme immediate Uber prejudice. Wait, this one was already deported to Uber since the early stage of the test...)
I would predict a playful half for OU and Uber.
Skymin: UBER/OU borderline pokemon...underpowering/jobless in UBER but OU...not too sure if it will be the same in that tier.
Latios: Probably the most UBER of the bunch. The Specs set and CM+LO set are monstrous.
Manaphy: Meh, never considered him UBER. Would be a powerful yet manageable pokemon in OU environment.
Garchomp: Personally, I believe this guy is UBER as much as I would want him to be in OU as he is my favorite pokemon. I won't repeat others who already said why he's a UBER material as he is too powerful in OU (bye bye SR, dual stab, 102 speed to outspeed most/many, SDYache set, etc). Even in the UBER environment, though he initially struggled to find his right spot as the "new guy", he is now one of the best, if not the best, revenge killer in the whole game (yes, in UBER as well...I would say he's actually the best revenge killer). Even with Latias, people would just have to get rid of latias and Garchomp's potential checks/"counters" for him to sweep with the SD set.
meh
Latios: Probably the most UBER of the bunch. The Specs set and CM+LO set are monstrous.
Manaphy: Meh, never considered him UBER. Would be a powerful yet manageable pokemon in OU environment.
Garchomp: Personally, I believe this guy is UBER as much as I would want him to be in OU as he is my favorite pokemon. I won't repeat others who already said why he's a UBER material as he is too powerful in OU (bye bye SR, dual stab, 102 speed to outspeed most/many, SDYache set, etc). Even in the UBER environment, though he initially struggled to find his right spot as the "new guy", he is now one of the best, if not the best, revenge killer in the whole game (yes, in UBER as well...I would say he's actually the best revenge killer). Even with Latias, people would just have to get rid of latias and Garchomp's potential checks/"counters" for him to sweep with the SD set.
meh
No...that's just incorrect. The person who said that must mean, if both Garchomp and Salamence were holding Life Orb, then Garchomp's Swords Dance allows it to raise its Attack more in a few given turns than Salamence's Dragon Dance. 1 SD>1DD in term of attack. 1SD=2DD. Of course, Salamence would have more speed after 1DD, and allow Salamence to take on the sweeping role better. Garchomp is more of wallbreaker.
That's after Yachechomp's SD and Mence's DD.
Swords Dance = 2 x Attack.
Dragon Dance x Life Orb = 1.5 x 1.3 x Atk = 1.95 Attack.
Skymin is not underpowering in Ubers; it can rip some teams apart with subseed. You just need to know how to use it.
But then again, this isn't Ubers talk.
But then again, this isn't Ubers talk.
To put that into statistical perspective:
Jolly Garchomp: 359 Atk
After SD: 718 Atk
Adamant LO Salamence: ~527 Atk
After DD: ~780 Atk
Of course Garchomp would be stronger if it ran Life Orb as well (~933 Atk) but then it gives up its precious Yache Berry which is what stops it from being revenge killed by all the things that Salamence doesn't have to worry about with its speed boost from DD (things like Starmie, Infernape, Gengar, Jolteon, etc).
I thought Latios gets countered by Scizor, Tyranitar, and gets walled to death by Cresselia and Blissey most of the time? Sure Latios can surprise its counters with its DD set but I think there are better Dragon Dancers for it. Latias can also emulated the CM + LO set so 20 more base Special Attack while having 20 less base Special Defense isn't that big of a deal.
But really though, judging by people's opinions, both Latias and Latios are used for different purposes; one as a defensive-oriented pokemon, while the other one is gearing towards the offensive.
If Latios and Latias are both in the same tier, then I do see how that could cause a problem since people are going to be abusing both Latios and Latias in the same team; that would cause both Latios and Latias to move back to ubers (I think this is the best choice imo).
You know, I think people's opinions might shift a little bit if Salamence was able to learn Brave Bird via tutoring. Salamence does not get STAB Earthquake, but I think that Dragon Dance with Intimidate more than makes up for it.
Roost makes it possible for bulky DD set as well. Slower Rock and Ice attacks would simply become less threatening, and getting 2-3 DDs would become much easier than ever before. It's definitely and undoubtedly the scariest of the sets with Dual Screen supports, IMO.
the only one i see moving is deoxys-s, but if he moves down he will be on almost every team.
He already moved to Uber in the early weeks of the test :p
On the lines of bulky DD. Dragonite does this much better, but he is generally overlooked. With screen support Dragonite is capable of shining like no other.
I think if any of them came to OU they would be manageable but they would cause the metagame to change drastically. None of them are unstoppable.
Swords Dance Chomp in the sand behind dual screens would be a terror though. I don't see him being stopped, at all. (yache or not) Especially a bulky variant. I can't picture too many people giving it a shot though.
haunter
Banned deucer.
The only Pokemon which can switch safely into specs-Latios are SpD oriented TTar (I mean careful and with almost max SpD), SpD oriented Metagross, Blissey, Registeel or very bulky Jirachi. Even max HP Scizor takes up to 71.43% from a specs draco meteor, while a bold max HP Cresselia takes 62.53% - 73.36% from the same draco meteor. The only possible argument to make Latios OU may be that it's quite easy to revenge kill, given its pursuit weakness and draco meteor secondary effect. Sadly the 20 SpA points that differentiate the Lati@s make a great difference.
Not really, I've rarely seen a defensive Latias on the suspect ladder during stege 3. Personally, when using both the eons, I used Latios equipped with choice specs or life orb, and Latias as a scrfed revenge killer, just because of her better SpD, so she could switch a little easier into Shaymin's specs'd seed flares / air slashes.
I don't think so, dragon / flying would be still resisted by steel types. And I would still run earthquake / outrage on a physical Salamence. Not to mention that brave bird would make Salamence's life even shorter than it is currently (imagine brave birding a Blissey or a Cresselia). What makes Garchomp so unique is its double typing dragon / ground, which gives it almost perfect offensive coverage while also giving it a plethora of resistances (most notably the rock one).
I'm pretty sure that Chomp runs Fire Fang/Blast to deal with them.
haunter
Banned deucer.
The standard Skarmory takes 51.50% - 60.48% from a Garchomp's +2 fire fang (66.77% - 78.74% if Chomp has life orb) and all it can do in return is roaring Chomp out - hoping that roar doesn't miss if sandstorm is active - so I wouldn't say that Skarmory "can wall Chomp to death". The standard sassy Bronzong takes 69.53% - 81.66% from the same fire fang (90.24% - 106.21% with life orb) and, again, what can Bronzong do in return? Exploding on Chomp or 2hkoing at best with gyro ball, so Bronzong is, at best, a mediocre counter for SD Chomp. The only set that can be walled by Skarmory and Bronzong is the scarf one, but that's not supposed to be a wall breaker but rather a revenge killer / late game cleaner. By the way, if I recall correctly, Garchomp's most broken set was exactly the SD one, when it was banned some months ago, so it's absolutely pointless to say that:
because that set is probaly the main reason for Chomp to be uber.
I may say that choice specs Groudon is walled by Blissey and Snorlax, but that wouldn't make it less uber, because obviously it's not that set which makes it uber (ignoring its ability, which may make it uber also under the support characteristic).
Expanding on Haunter's point: phazing away Garchomp doesn't mean it dies. It just comes in again at the cost of a pathetic 6.25% from Stealth Rock. Even with Yache Berry, Skarm still loses the stall war, which further underscores the point that Salamence can't come close to possessing the combination of power and durability that Garchomp has.
Phaze out Salamence once, and it's a goner due to Stealth Rock, Sandstorm, and Life Orb recoil. Phaze out Garchomp, and all you've done is pay tribute to the Romans. Whose to say they won't come back and kill you again?
Of course, there's always revenge killing, but just because you can revenge kill something doesn't mean that it's good for standard. As someone said, the very fact that you need to revenge kill it means that the pokemon has done it's job.
Phaze out Salamence once, and it's a goner due to Stealth Rock, Sandstorm, and Life Orb recoil. Phaze out Garchomp, and all you've done is pay tribute to the Romans. Whose to say they won't come back and kill you again?
Of course, there's always revenge killing, but just because you can revenge kill something doesn't mean that it's good for standard. As someone said, the very fact that you need to revenge kill it means that the pokemon has done it's job.
Well, hopefully the voters for the suspect test will be announced soon, and I hope to be one of them. This topic is pretty much dying, so I thought I'd give my opinion on each of them.
Latias: Definitely gonna be OU. It has already been shown to not be overpowering in OU, and in this test was far overshadowed by Latios. Those different stats really hurt. Also, way to easily revenged by Weavile, Scizor and Tyranitar.
Manaphy: Once again, definitely OU. It may just be me, but in my experience Manaphy was very underwhelming. I didn't really play much in Manaphy testing, but as it was voted uber I assumedit would be more powerful than it is... The only time when Manaphy is really a threat is in the rain, and the abundance of T-tar stops the rain. I don't think Manaphy would be overpowered in OU at all.
Garchomp: Garchomp could go either way, I don't really know. The SD Yache set is very dangerous, but the presence of scizor could help with that. Also, Latias will be a very easy check to Garchomp, so long as sand veil doesn't ruin it. Sand veil+Brightpowder is very dangerous, and causes a lot of misses, not helped by the fact that Tyranitar is one of the most used pokémon right now. I'd assume their might be an increase in Machamp usage, with No guard.
Skymin: Another one I'm unsure of. We already have seen how deadly pokémon with serene grace can be coughjirachicough and considering Skymins large special attack and STAB on Air Slash it is very deadly. Not to mention Seed Flare, 80% chance of a sp.def drop, which can eliminate it's possible counters. However, it is fairly frail, and Mamoswine and Weavile can easily revenge it. Still unsure of which way it will be going.
Latios: This is the only one that I definitely think will be uber. 110 speed, 130 sp.atk, and access to the best STAB, I definitely think this would overcentralize OU. Basically every team would need to run a Blissey. If that's not overcentralisation I dunno what is.
Well, this is just my opinion, and I'm sure all of you have your own opinions, that differ vastly from mine. I look forward to hearing them.
Latias: Definitely gonna be OU. It has already been shown to not be overpowering in OU, and in this test was far overshadowed by Latios. Those different stats really hurt. Also, way to easily revenged by Weavile, Scizor and Tyranitar.
Manaphy: Once again, definitely OU. It may just be me, but in my experience Manaphy was very underwhelming. I didn't really play much in Manaphy testing, but as it was voted uber I assumedit would be more powerful than it is... The only time when Manaphy is really a threat is in the rain, and the abundance of T-tar stops the rain. I don't think Manaphy would be overpowered in OU at all.
Garchomp: Garchomp could go either way, I don't really know. The SD Yache set is very dangerous, but the presence of scizor could help with that. Also, Latias will be a very easy check to Garchomp, so long as sand veil doesn't ruin it. Sand veil+Brightpowder is very dangerous, and causes a lot of misses, not helped by the fact that Tyranitar is one of the most used pokémon right now. I'd assume their might be an increase in Machamp usage, with No guard.
Skymin: Another one I'm unsure of. We already have seen how deadly pokémon with serene grace can be coughjirachicough and considering Skymins large special attack and STAB on Air Slash it is very deadly. Not to mention Seed Flare, 80% chance of a sp.def drop, which can eliminate it's possible counters. However, it is fairly frail, and Mamoswine and Weavile can easily revenge it. Still unsure of which way it will be going.
Latios: This is the only one that I definitely think will be uber. 110 speed, 130 sp.atk, and access to the best STAB, I definitely think this would overcentralize OU. Basically every team would need to run a Blissey. If that's not overcentralisation I dunno what is.
Well, this is just my opinion, and I'm sure all of you have your own opinions, that differ vastly from mine. I look forward to hearing them.
The only reason why Manaphy was underwhelming in Stage 3 was likely the presence of the other suspects. Skymin can easily revenge-kill Manaphy with Seed Flare (barring a miss) and resists the mono-attacker's Surf. Due to the presence of Garchomp, Tyranitar usage was up because people were using it with Garchomp to activate Sand Veil. The presence of Sand Veil in many games made Manaphy's favored Rain status harder to set up and sweep with. I could easily see Manaphy being moved down to OU while none of the current Ubers are, and then being too good for OU like it was in its solo suspect test.
I think one of the more controversial suspects out of the pool of five is Skymin, and I feel that the characteristics established for the Uber status of a Pokémon may need to be more specific in regards to Skymin. My main concern here is that Skymin's ability to fit the offensive characteristic (if anything) depends solely on the ability to make full use of Serene Grace. Out of experience, I and several others could possible agree that without the ability to constantly lower the opponent's Special Defense with Seed Flare or repeatedly flinch with Air Slash, Skymin would certainly not be a suspect.
Mainly, I bring up this point because the offensive characteristic of a Pokémon states that Skymin "should be capable of sweeping with little effort". The thing here, in my opinion, is that luck is not a certain variable and thus, I feel we are left with a vague definition in Skymin's case. Would we want to vote knowing the probability that Skymin has to "hax" on paper, or would we want to make our votes based on experience?
For example, many of us agree that Skarmory is a decent "counter" to Skymin, but does that really count for anything when you get flinched to death? (And yes, this has happened to me.) I for one found myself losing to Skymin a lot more that I should have due to the random luck factor, while I never found it overwhelming when using Skymin myself (because of my shit luck).
The main question is: How should we apply the offensive characteristic to a Pokémon whose ability to sweep solely depends on luck?
Furthermore, I apologize if I misunderstand the offensive characteristic in regards to Skymin's case, especially as I find it pretty straightforward for all of the other suspects.
Mainly, I bring up this point because the offensive characteristic of a Pokémon states that Skymin "should be capable of sweeping with little effort". The thing here, in my opinion, is that luck is not a certain variable and thus, I feel we are left with a vague definition in Skymin's case. Would we want to vote knowing the probability that Skymin has to "hax" on paper, or would we want to make our votes based on experience?
For example, many of us agree that Skarmory is a decent "counter" to Skymin, but does that really count for anything when you get flinched to death? (And yes, this has happened to me.) I for one found myself losing to Skymin a lot more that I should have due to the random luck factor, while I never found it overwhelming when using Skymin myself (because of my shit luck).
The main question is: How should we apply the offensive characteristic to a Pokémon whose ability to sweep solely depends on luck?
Furthermore, I apologize if I misunderstand the offensive characteristic in regards to Skymin's case, especially as I find it pretty straightforward for all of the other suspects.