np: Stage 3 - Family Reunion ("This Is Why I Created" Remix)

[lordkira]

Garchomp's Speed is such that it's basically a Base 100 pokemon (i.e. Salamence, Zapdos, Flygon) which doesn't have to deal with a 50/50 speed tie against said pokemon. It's decent but susceptible to the exact same things you'd use to revenge a MixMence (or other non-DD variants), including Ice Shard users and Scizor/Lucario. Garchomp does have a little more natural bulk, however.

Garchomp's speed is basically a base 100 pokemon in terms of simple numbers but with its unique addition of 2 more into speed than 100 (so 102 lol), he outruns those base 100ers and becomes the third fastest dragon. It's not decent but fast in my honest opinion. Of course, what you said about using the same pokemons one would use to revenge kill Mixmence to kill garchomp but when revenge killing is not the case and garchomp fights off against the other dragons, let's say...salamence, he will come off as the winner (if it is the case of one-on-one situation).

Garchomp does not need a Life Orb to produce the power of Salamence or many other powerful pokemon, such as Gyarados and T-Tar, all of whom have access only to DD. (Lucario, however...) On the flip side, it never has the speed that the DDers get. (Priority in the case of Lucario.) This makes Garchomp more successful at "wallbreaking" and otherwise dealing with "stall" pokemon, none of which are looking to outspeed you anyway, but weaker at dealing with offensive teams who might be packing stuff like Azelf or Gengar, things which deliver a heavy blow to Garchomp but get outsped and killed by a buffed Salamence (sans Scarf).

It is true Garchomp never has the speed that DDers get but that's after a DD. If he is matched against those DDers, he wouldn't need a DD or a SD but just attack. But of course he wouldn't be able to go in on a DDer who had a DD already, so that part I agree with you completely. I also agree with Garchomp being a good wallbreaker/stallbreaker. However, I would also say he's an extraordinary physical sweeper (I like his scarf set and sd variants only).

CB Garchomp is nothing special. CB Salamence is basically the same pokémon with different resistances. (Notably SR-weak, but also packing a Fighting resist + Intimidate, 4x Grass resist, Water resist.) Any Choice or LO Dragon is going to punch holes through anything and everything with the overpowered new Outrage and Draco Meteor that exist in this generation. Kingdra may well even be the most dangerous one, though it requires a little extra support (Rain Dance).

CBChomp, like you said, has the SR "resistance" and in my honest opinion with everyone going nuts with SR, Garchomp has the "more" useful resistances than Salamence. Also, I believe Kingdra is VERY underused for his actual worth. I really do see Kingdra as a huge threat. With the right support as you said, (and maybe DD) he is one of my favorite pokemons.

Oh and don't misunderstand me. My favorite pokemon is garchomp and it always has been. Still, I feel like he's too strong for the metagame. I do know about his "new" checks, such as Latias and Scizor for instance. However, I feel like those may not be enough. I really do feel like garchomp really needs a counter (that is actually useful against others as well and not just another gimmick). Meh, that was my thoughts if anyone cares lol.
And I did enjoy your argument with jrrrrrrrrrrr since I did see a lot of constructive arguments about Chomp unlike some people who "argues" "GARCHOMP IS TOO POWERFUL SO HE IS UBER" or "I LOVE GARCHOMP".
Anyways best luck

 

[Misa]

I really do feel like garchomp really needs a counter (that is actually useful against others as well and not just another gimmick). Meh, that was my thoughts if anyone cares lol.

But Garchomp has plenty of good counters already. In fact, different sets are countered by different things. CB and Choice Scarf Garchomp is easily countered by Skarmory and Bronzong, while the Swords Dance set is easily stopped by the Lati@s and Cresselia. It's not like Garchomp is completely invincible.

Heck, it's Skymin that I'm worried about more than Garchomp. Having Skymin in OU might change the Regis' Tiering from UU to OU.

The thing here, in my opinion, is that luck is not a certain variable and thus, I feel we are left with a vague definition in Skymin's case. Would we want to vote knowing the probability that Skymin has to "hax" on paper, or would we want to make our votes based on experience?

That's the problem here. Most of us know that luck isn't a variable when it comes to how broken a pokemon is (critical hits only happen about 7% of the time in general?), but when a Pokemon has that much luck on its side (60% flinch and 80% SpD drop), that's where it's going way too far. If Garchomp had an ability that allowed him to get Critical Hits 60% of the time, I'd be pretty scared too.

To my honest opinion, getting flinched by Air Slash 3-4x is really annoying imo.

 

[Staraptor Call]

But Garchomp has plenty of good counters already. In fact, different sets are countered by different things. CB and Choice Scarf Garchomp is easily countered by Skarmory and Bronzong, while the Swords Dance set is easily stopped by the Lati@s and Cresselia. It's not like Garchomp is completely invincible.

Were you paying attention during the Great Search for Garchomp Counters back in 2008? Only four things counter Yache Chomp: Skill Link Cloyster, Choice Scarf Cresselia, Choice Scarf Suicune, and Choice Band Rhyperior. Other than Rhyperior, these are all complete gimmicks that cannot support their team in any way other than countering Garchomp. The Cresselia you mentioned cannot OHKO Garchomp with Ice Beam and does not outspeed it without Choice Scarf, while being 2HKOed by boosted Outrage. Latias can obviously not switch into Outrage and is doomed if Garchomp is holding the Haban Berry.

 

[Huntofthelion]

But Garchomp has plenty of good counters already. In fact, different sets are countered by different things. CB and Choice Scarf Garchomp is easily countered by Skarmory and Bronzong, while the Swords Dance set is easily stopped by the Lati@s and Cresselia. It's not like Garchomp is completely invincible.

Heck, it's Skymin that I'm worried about more than Garchomp. Having Skymin in OU might change the Regis' Tiering from UU to OU.

Easily stopped...how? SD Yache is in no way stopped by Cressy, and the Lati's can at best revenge. The only true counter to SD chomp is perfect prediction, which isn't enough to keep it OU. And as for different sets being countered by different things, almost any quality sweeper can say the same thing.

 

[Thisaccountwashackedlol]

Easily stopped...how? SD Yache is in no way stopped by cressy, and the Lati's can at best revenge. The only true counter to SD chomp is perfect prediction, which is enough to keep it OU.

Perfect prediction does not exist.

 

[Huntofthelion]

Perfect prediction does not exist.

If you switch to a steel on the outrage, you can usually deal with it, or switch in Latias on the EQ. In those cases, you usually don't lose anything.

 

[Thisaccountwashackedlol]

If you switch to a steel on the outrage, you can usually deal with it, or switch in Latias on the EQ. In those cases, you usually don't lose anything.

However your opponent might predict the steel switch-in and use EQ, or it may predict the Latias switch in and use Outrage. You cannot ensure that your opponent will not be able to outpredict you.

Last time I checked your opponent does not announce his moves before making them. His moves are also not set in stone.

I do not believe that any human possesses the power of omniscience. Perfect prediction is impossible.

 

[Huntofthelion]

However your opponent might predict the steel switch-in and use EQ, or it may predict the Latias switch in and use Outrage. You cannot ensure that your opponent will not be able to outpredict you.

Hence I said that you needed perfect prediction to beat it.

Last time I checked your opponent does not announce his moves before making them. His moves are also not set in stone.

I do not believe that any human possesses the power of omniscience. Perfect prediction is impossible.

You don't need omniscience, it's just executing the right moves. Believe it or not, it is possible to go a whole match without getting out predicted. And of course moves aren't set in stone, throughout a match people change approaches multiple times to throw off opponents, but it is possible to guess which way they're going to go.

I don't really even see why you tried to point it out, I said it wasn't a real counter or even enough to consider it for OU.

 

[WarriorPrince]

However your opponent might predict the steel switch-in and use EQ, or it may predict the Latias switch in and use Outrage. You cannot ensure that your opponent will not be able to outpredict you.

Last time I checked your opponent does not announce his moves before making them. His moves are also not set in stone.

I do not believe that any human possesses the power of omniscience. Perfect prediction is impossible.

I completely agree with you. Perfect prediction is non-existent but good/great prediction is quite common, and so is Skarm.

Skarm screws that argument, being flying and steel and so does Bronzong (levitate). Skarm only fears SD sets with sand support or Chain Chomps. Both of those sets can be easily revenge killed. Most Gachomp will fall hard to spikes and definitely toxic spikes unless the team is holding a cleric (which is not too common) and/or wish support. Garchomp is a pretty powerful pokemon, one of the most powerful, but I think the metagame needs some more spark. I wouldn't mind if three suspects came in. Non of them are unstoppable. I think Skymin is the least likely to come to OU because it is easily the most broken. On the other hand, I think Manaphy is the weakest link. Without Kyogre, he won't be as deadly. He will still be a potent sweeper, but I can't see everyone and their moms using rain dance teams properly.

~to each his own.

 

[lordkira]

Were you paying attention during the Great Search for Garchomp Counters back in 2008? Only four things counter Yache Chomp: Skill Link Cloyster, Choice Scarf Cresselia, Choice Scarf Suicune, and Choice Band Rhyperior. Other than Rhyperior, these are all complete gimmicks that cannot support their team in any way other than countering Garchomp. The Cresselia you mentioned cannot OHKO Garchomp with Ice Beam and does not outspeed it without Choice Scarf, while being 2HKOed by boosted Outrage. Latias can obviously not switch into Outrage and is doomed if Garchomp is holding the Haban Berry.

Also to add onto that, the only reason how you may have (and I have as well) thought Chomp was not as powerful during the suspect testing misa was probably because of the presence of latios. Even then, Latios can't really switch into Garchomp's moves all the time.

But Garchomp has plenty of good counters already. In fact, different sets are countered by different things. CB and Choice Scarf Garchomp is easily countered by Skarmory and Bronzong, while the Swords Dance set is easily stopped by the Lati@s and Cresselia. It's not like Garchomp is completely invincible.

Heck, it's Skymin that I'm worried about more than Garchomp. Having Skymin in OU might change the Regis' Tiering from UU to OU.

That's the problem here. Most of us know that luck isn't a variable when it comes to how broken a pokemon is (critical hits only happen about 7% of the time in general?), but when a Pokemon has that much luck on its side (60% flinch and 80% SpD drop), that's where it's going way too far. If Garchomp had an ability that allowed him to get Critical Hits 60% of the time, I'd be pretty scared too.

To my honest opinion, getting flinched by Air Slash 3-4x is really annoying imo.

Skymin has some definite counters such as....scarfTran who would run over skymin. While Garchomp does not have any definite counters unless (you could count scarfcress and scarfcune gimmicks that people made a while ago but these are...pretty worthless outside the fact that they counter SOME Chomp sets).

 

[Huntofthelion]

Skarm is 2HKOd by +2 Fire fang, so it's not a counter. If it was, chomp wouldn't be a suspect. And I believe Fire Blast (If you want to keep with the prediction theme) is also a 2hko. Also, Manaphy doesn't need Rain Dance to work effectively, it certainly helps but he can live without. 100 Base speed, and a move that boosts it's SpA by 2 is really really good. Coupled with 101 Subs it can potentiall stall out blissey with TS support.



Edit: Scarftran is in no way a Skymin counter, it's not far off for them to run Earth Power. There are decent pokemon that run standard sets that can counter it though, I can't think of any of the top of my head though.

 

[lordkira]

I completely agree with you. Perfect prediction is non-existent but good/great prediction is quite common, and so is Skarm.

Skarm screws that argument, being flying and steel and so does Bronzong (levitate). Skarm only fears SD sets with sand support or Chain Chomps. Both of those sets can be easily revenge killed. Most Gachomp will fall hard to spikes and definitely toxic spikes unless the team is holding a cleric (which is not too common) and/or wish support. Garchomp is a pretty powerful pokemon, one of the most powerful, but I think the metagame needs some more spark. I wouldn't mind if three suspects came in. Non of them are unstoppable. I think Skymin is the least likely to come to OU because it is easily the most broken. On the other hand, I think Manaphy is the weakest link. Without Kyogre, he won't be as deadly. He will still be a potent sweeper, but I can't see everyone and their moms using rain dance teams properly.

~to each his own.

I wouldn't say skymin is the least likely one to come over to OU as I believe Latios is. SpecsLatios or CMLOLatios will mostly OHKO everything it sees. Also, revenge killing can be done with everything else (even the UBERS) but its really having few pokemons to truly counter Garchomp as a mean to prevent him from 6-0ing him. I understand one use prediction and rev kill but that will not always be the case and like every OU pokemons, it needs something to totally counter its potential to sweep 6-0.

Don't get me wrong, I understand Garchomp can be revenge killed...yes I know. However, even Palkia can be OHKO'd by Latias (not even Latios) as log as she has specs and dragon pulse (not even draco meteor). Things in UBERS can be revenge killed by OU pokemons but that wouldn't make them OU. I do love Garchomp but I think it's way too strong for OU. It does well in the UBER environment anyways as a great/one of the best (if not the best) revenge killers for instance.

 

[BattleForTheSun]

I've never really followed the entire Garchomp-debate, but what I'm understanding from this last thread-page is enough for me to come to the conclusion that Garchomp is too Uber for OU. The reasons:

• It has no viable counters: some Pokémon are capable of slowing Garchomp down but they're either not effective enough to be called real Garchomp "counters" (Skarmory, Bronzong) or gimmicks that aren't viable in the metagame (Skill Link Cloyster, Choice Scarf Cresselia, Choice Scarf Suicune). The only real "counter" that also has uses other than simply stopping Garchomp (Choice Band Rhyperior) isn't used a lot atm, and it would be silly if every team needed on of these just to stop Chomp.

• If you need to revenge kill it, it's too late: because Garchomp has already gotten a targeted kill on one of your team's key members. I've heard many people say that "Garchomp guarantees one kill per match - and that's broken"... while I believe that "guarantee" is a strong term, it does seem that there's some truth to this statement. If no viable counters exist, and if therefore you have to resort to revenge killing, that means Garchomp has already done to your team what it was supposed to do. Revenge killing =/= countering, IMO.

So, as much as I like Garchomp and even though I'd like to try it out on one of my teams because it could be so much better a wallbreaker than Salamence, I don't really think Garchomp is viable in OU. Just my 2 cents.

 

[lordkira]

Yep that's what I see in him.
Garchomp is my personal favorite in looks also...but, he's just too powerful I feel like. YOu can revenge kill him with some prediction but you can also do that with other UBERS as well.

 

[haunter]

Hence I said that you needed perfect prediction to beat it.

Perfect prediction does not exist, most of the times prediction is just guessing. I'd really like Stathakis to come here and write a wall of text on the subject.

Skarm screws that argument, being flying and steel and so does Bronzong (levitate). Skarm only fears SD sets with sand support or Chain Chomps. Both of those sets can be easily revenge killed. Most Gachomp will fall hard to spikes and definitely toxic spikes unless the team is holding a cleric (which is not too common) and/or wish support. Garchomp is a pretty powerful pokemon, one of the most powerful, but I think the metagame needs some more spark. I wouldn't mind if three suspects came in. Non of them are unstoppable.

Every non flying \ levitator Pokemon has troubles with spikes \ toxic spikes, and Garchomp is no exception. The fact is that most teams which rely on entry hazards to wear down Chomp, are swept by it before the poison damage can take it down.

I think Skymin is the least likely to come to OU because it is easily the most broken.

I agree. When an added effect has a 60% or 80% chance of happening it's no longer sheer luck, but something more.

On the other hand, I think Manaphy is the weakest link. Without Kyogre, he won't be as deadly. He will still be a potent sweeper, but I can't see everyone and their moms using rain dance teams properly.

This is false, actually. Manaphy most fearsome set has been used properly only during stage 3, being able to make 101 HP substitutes, with its good typing and defences, it can set up on almost every wall in the game (including Blissey, which usually is 2hko'd by a +6 surf). And it definitely doesn't need rain dance to work properly.

 

[scorchedsky]

Perfect prediction does not exist, most of the times prediction is just guessing.

This is the rock-paper-scissors element of pokemon that will never go away. To say someone has "perfect prediction" in rock-paper-scissors is foolish; it is a game of complete information (each opponent knows every option). While in the first few moves of a battle you might be able to score some good predictions (ie, throwing out an EQ in case your opponent sends Heatran to absorb a fire attack), these predictions are worth less and less as the game goes on.

Once you know "enough" about your opponent's team, you know all their possible moves, and the game reverts to one of complete information. While there are more choices in pokemon than rock-paper-scissors, battles frequently come to a turning point at which you have to predict your opponent's action when you know all of his potential moves. But what if your opponent knows all your moves?

Once you and your opponent know what the best move for each player is in the situation, the entire element of "prediction" goes out the window. It's exactly how it works in rock-paper-scissors. I "predict" my opponent will go rock, so I go paper, but he "predicts" my paper and goes scissors, and I "predict" his "prediction..." etc. In pokemon, you would "predict" your opponent's Heatran won't stay in on your Garchomp and go for the SD, but your opponent "predicts" you'll go for SD, but you "predict" that he'll "predict" your move, and it devolves into a guessing game. Once this situation happens, no amount of "prediction skills" in the world could save anyone from having to guess at which move would be best in this case.

It's actually interesting to try to imagine the Uber Characteristics in this sense, too. Instead of being "capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort," you can think of Garchomp as being able to to this "regardless of what information is known about the opponent's team." A pokemon with the Offensive Characteristic would be more likely to sweep through a completely unknown team than a pokemon without it. "Effort" can almost be analogous to the "processing of information," and therefore "little effort" is either without that information (an unknown team) or without having to process information (fewer "guessing" scenarios as described above).

(sorry for not being Stathakis, but I couldn't resist lol)

 

[Nachos]

But the question is not, "which metagame do I prefer, standard or suspect," it is, "Can Garchomp sweep a large portion of the metagame with little support." If Garchomp is forcing people to use heavy stall just to deal with one threat, then it is likely that Garchomp fits the offensive characteristic of an Uber since it almost always takes more than one Pokemon to counter and is forcing teams to be more defensive than they would otherwise have to be. Back in early DP when Garchomp was allowed in Standard, many successful teams (mine included) were just Sandstorm stall with a Garchomp added. People would use Stall just because it was better able to handle Garchomp and because Garchomp excluded many other sweepers that would be threatening to stall (mainly Salamence).

Garchomp cannot sweep without little effort what-so-ever. I'm not sure if you played Suspect, but with Latios and friends around, I could almost never give a chance for the opposing Garchomp to SD. Afaik, Garchomp cannot switch in safely on most of the Top 10 Pokemon used on Suspect in July 2009. The common argument for Uberchomp to get SD is that you sacrifice Pokemon A to bring in Garchomp. If the argument is sacrificing a Pokemon just so Garchomp can get a single Swords Dance up, as it hardly can switch into many things (Latios, itself, Scizor, Skymin etc), means that it's uber, then I honestly think that's a terrible argument.

I've also said somewhere in this thread that running sand just for Garchomp is a bad idea. There is 100% no synergy if it's just Tyranitar/Hippowdon + Garchomp + 4 random Pokemon. If Garchomp is encouraging a kind of play to come back to OU, when currently the most used Pokemon are generally never seen on stall teams, I can only see this as a good thing.

In my experience (I played suspect for a week or 2 then stopped, and I played on a server with Garchomp unbanned a while back) Garchomp is both a wallbreaker and sweeper. Not being SR weak is a huge plus, he's the only dragon apart from Kingdra and Flygon that doesn't share the flying type (fully evolved mind you), plus, ground typing gives him an extremely useful immunity, allowing him to come in to T-waves and choiced Thunderbolts and either set up or kill something. CB Chomp can wear down even it's hardest counters with time, 2HKOing Skarmory with Fire Fang. SD Yache chomp will sweep pretty much every team that doesn't have at least 1-2 checks/counters. Scarfchomp makes an excellent revenge killer as well, even in Ubers.

Errr.. look at that Top 10 Suspect July list and tell me which pokemon will be using choiced electric moves. The only ones I see there near the top are Scarf Magnezone (possible Flash Cannon and HP:Ice), Specs Latias (Garchomp cannot switch in on this in fear of Trick or a dragon move). Garchomp switching in on Latios is probably the dumbest idea ever lol. Garchomp also now has to have a choice to whether it wants Haban or Yache berry.

I agree that ScarfChomp is good at revenge killing, but it's not uber material, that's been known for over a year.

Gyarados is weak to Stealth Rock. And affected by Sandstorm. The only set that can feasibly come in again and again is the Rest Talk user. Garchomp is affected by neither. And it has (another thing that makes it infamous) a higher base defense than Swampert.

Specially Defensive Skarm got popularized on Suspect (even though I think it's the best set in OU anyway...), and Spikes were everywhere. Not only that, but Garchomp is affected by Toxic Spikes, unlike Gyarados and Salamence, who have to deal with SR and Sandstorm. Salamence also has a good recovery move in Roost. Garchomp has fuck all.

...of course, Salamence would have more speed after 1DD, and allow Salamence to take on the sweeping role better. Garchomp is more of wallbreaker

This. Also,

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Garchomp can possibly beat one wall before it faints. Not sure about anyone else, but it seems to me that it can't sweep through a "significant portion of teams with little effort".

It is true Garchomp never has the speed that DDers get but that's after a DD. If he is matched against those DDers, he wouldn't need a DD or a SD but just attack. But of course he wouldn't be able to go in on a DDer who had a DD already, so that part I agree with you completely. I also agree with Garchomp being a good wallbreaker/stallbreaker. However, I would also say he's an extraordinary physical sweeper (I like his scarf set and sd variants only).

This is just my opinion, but imo 1 DD > 1 SD. Garchomp cannot sweep due to being outsped by Starmie, Latios and friends. Salamence can usually beat anything not steel easily with DD. And even then, unlike Garchomp, Salamence can use Fire Blast, easily bypassing physical Skarmory.

I really do feel like garchomp really needs a counter (that is actually useful against others as well and not just another gimmick).

I thought this idea of countering every Pokemon was dismissed along time ago. By your logic, I could easily make a case for Lucario to become uber. Gliscor can't switch in due to Ice Punch, same with Salamence. Lucario can also possibly run Stone Edge to deal with Zapdos and Gyarados, who'll both be hurt by SR. Not only that but he has SD too, and and has a decent priority move. Ofcourse, I'm not saying Lucario is uber, and anyone who has any experience knows that theorymon most of the time means nothing (look at UU..), but saying something that something needs a counter to become uber is just silly. I could go on about Salamence with it's unpredictability, but I don't wanna go off topic.

If you need to revenge kill it, it's too late: because Garchomp has already gotten a targeted kill on one of your team's key members. I've heard many people say that "Garchomp guarantees one kill per match - and that's broken"... while I believe that "guarantee" is a strong term, it does seem that there's some truth to this statement. If no viable counters exist, and if therefore you have to resort to revenge killing, that means Garchomp has already done to your team what it was supposed to do. Revenge killing =/= countering, IMO.

Wait, what? Garchomp does not guarantee a kill every match. And what's this idea about counters for every pokemon all of a sudden? Actually I am going to talk about Salamence a bit.

First off, Garchomp is really really predictable. Nobody runs some cheesy ChainChomp/Specs set. It's 100% totally physical. Salamence on the other hand, is it Specs? DD? Mix? CB? Bulky? There is no counter for this Pokemon until you know it's set. And seeing as Salamence has a large movepool, that's going to be atleast 2 turns, especially if it's running Expert Belt and you dont see LO recoil, you'll probably think it's Specs'd if it uses Draco Meteor. Lucario can also run Mix and Specs aswell, so that means you'll never truly know their counter until you've faced it.

Secondly, after a DD or two, what really counters Salemence? I've already mentioned Fire Blast for Skarm, same goes for Zong too. And they won't be switching in Turn 1 in fear of MiXmence. You're going to have to revenge kill. Revenge killing is a part of the game. So what if you have to deal with Garchomp in a different way you deal with Breloom for example. It just makes variety and brings a challenge to the game, which it seems many people don't like.

"Effort" can almost be analogous to the "processing of information," and therefore "little effort" is either without that information (an unknown team) or without having to process information (fewer "guessing" scenarios as described above).

But what is "little effort"? The only way I'm seeing Garchomp pull off a sweep is by getting 2 or 3 misses with Sand Veil, but that requires a Ttar/Hippo to have been active once on the field. I'm also ready to take that 4/5 chance to get Garchomp with Ice Beam/Dragon Pulse, and that chance to miss gets smaller over time. 0.2 * 0.2 = 0.04 chance to miss Garchomp twice in a row with sand veil active.

 

[lordkira]

You cannot apply what people have been doing with Garchomp to Salamence.
While Salamence is powerful, he is stopped by, and I am sure you have heard this argument before, the ever so used stealth rock. And even if it has recovery moves, with stealth rock damage and life orb (assuming the salamence is carrying its most used item), salamence has some major problems. Also, it is true about Garchomp in a sense as he does not get a speed-boost move such as dragon dance of the other dragons; however, with his natural speed being faster they cannot switch into him easily and also what if Garchomp is scarfed? Furthermore, though you say ScarfChomp is not an UBER material, he is actually imo one of the (if not the best) best revenge killers even in UBER. The thing is the third fastest dragon and the other two are not as nearly used. Also, it is important to note that he is also the 12th most used UBER, which may imply that he is very well used and is not underpowering as nobody would play an overclassed pokemon especially in UBER.

 

[Nachos]

Whatever a pokemon can do in ubers doesn't affect it's OU tiering. ScarfChomp actually has things to beat it. If it's stuck in Outrage, it's heaven for CMJirachi.

Salamence is not stopped by Stealth Rock lol. Sure, it gives it problems, but I'm not sure where you've been if you think SR defeats Salamence.

they cannot switch into him easily

It works both ways.

 

[Flashstorm1]

I think one of the more controversial suspects out of the pool of five is Skymin, and I feel that the characteristics established for the Uber status of a Pokémon may need to be more specific in regards to Skymin. My main concern here is that Skymin's ability to fit the offensive characteristic (if anything) depends solely on the ability to make full use of Serene Grace. Out of experience, I and several others could possible agree that without the ability to constantly lower the opponent's Special Defense with Seed Flare or repeatedly flinch with Air Slash, Skymin would certainly not be a suspect.

Mainly, I bring up this point because the offensive characteristic of a Pokémon states that Skymin "should be capable of sweeping with little effort". The thing here, in my opinion, is that luck is not a certain variable and thus, I feel we are left with a vague definition in Skymin's case. Would we want to vote knowing the probability that Skymin has to "hax" on paper, or would we want to make our votes based on experience?

For example, many of us agree that Skarmory is a decent "counter" to Skymin, but does that really count for anything when you get flinched to death? (And yes, this has happened to me.) I for one found myself losing to Skymin a lot more that I should have due to the random luck factor, while I never found it overwhelming when using Skymin myself (because of my shit luck).

The main question is: How should we apply the offensive characteristic to a Pokémon whose ability to sweep solely depends on luck?

Furthermore, I apologize if I misunderstand the offensive characteristic in regards to Skymin's case, especially as I find it pretty straightforward for all of the other suspects.

I apologize for "bumping" my post here, but I think it may have been missed, seeing as it was the last post on the previous page and was "automatically dismissed".

Regardless, I've been able to gather some of the current thoughts for Skymin's ability to sweep, so I'd like to apply them here.

From what I've gathered, most of us can agree that Skymin's ability to constantly abuse the luck factor is just too great when compared to other Pokémon, which in this case, does make it easier to sweep a major portion of the metagame.

Also...

This is false, actually. Manaphy most fearsome set has been used properly only during stage 3, being able to make 101 HP substitutes, with its good typing and defences, it can set up on almost every wall in the game (including Blissey, which usually is 2hko'd by a +6 surf). And it definitely doesn't need rain dance to work properly.

What makes Manaphy's potential tiering really on the line, as compared to other Pokemon, is the presence of the other suspects. My major problem with Manaphy so far has been moveslot syndrome more than anything, to where it didn't actually sweep a major portion of the metagame (but was damn close though), especially with Skymin, Lati@s, and even Garchomp halting its sweep once the Substitute was broken. And unlike Garchomp, there are plenty of Pokémon who can make good initial switch-ins into Manaphy, such as Latios and Latias, along with Gyarados, Empoleon, and even Vaporeon.

 

[d2m]

Errr.. look at that Top 10 Suspect July list and tell me which pokemon will be using choiced electric moves. The only ones I see there near the top are Scarf Magnezone (possible Flash Cannon and HP:Ice), Specs Latias (Garchomp cannot switch in on this in fear of Trick or a dragon move). Garchomp switching in on Latios is probably the dumbest idea ever lol. Garchomp also now has to have a choice to whether it wants Haban or Yache berry.

I only listed those as possibilities. Thunder Wave is still the status move of choice with all the steels that are immune to Toxic running around, and it's fairly easy to predict.

Regardless, when Garchomp gets in, something on the other team is going to die. Whether or not it sweeps is irrelevant, merely a distinction between the Offensive and Support characteristics. The former indicates that Garchomp will sweep any team without at least 2 solid counters, and the latter indicates that, while Garchomp can be revenge killed rather easily, it is near impossible to actually wall. Thus he at least takes one person out allowing another to sweep (ie: He takes out a Vaporeon then is revenge killed by Weavile/Starmie/Latias(os), then Gyarados comes in and sweeps)

 

[Nachos]

I only listed those as possibilities. Thunder Wave is still the status move of choice with all the steels that are immune to Toxic running around, and it's fairly easy to predict.

Regardless, when Garchomp gets in, something on the other team is going to die. Whether or not it sweeps is irrelevant, merely a distinction between the Offensive and Support characteristics. The former indicates that Garchomp will sweep any team without at least 2 solid counters, and the latter indicates that, while Garchomp can be revenge killed rather easily, it is near impossible to actually wall. Thus he at least takes one person out allowing another to sweep (ie: He takes out a Vaporeon then is revenge killed by Weavile/Starmie/Latias(os), then Gyarados comes in and sweeps)

This is what I'm trying to say. Garchomp can't come in for free. If I have Vaporeon out, what happens if I Surf while you switch in, or maybe even Ice Beam, or maybe even Toxic. If you sacrifice something for Garchomp to have a free switch-in, how is that good for the Support Characteristic? And if I do finish off some fodder pokemon then Garchomp comes in, you're literally wasting a pokemon on your team to beat one of mine. That's 2 pokemon for the price of 1 so to say. Usually not a good trade off.

You'll find that the best teams usually have a backup to threats such as Gyarados, in the form of not just one counter. They usually have another counter or a check of some sort too. Maybe this is suggesting that Garchomp might provide a new challenge for OU?

Either way, this is all theorymon. Choice Scarf was the most used set in July, not SD which everyone seems to worry about. While I'm not saying Garchomp is a bad pokemon, as it is a Suspect after all, I just find the comments on the last 2-3 pages to make it out to be some unstoppable force that will destroy OU.

 

[d2m]

This is what I'm trying to say. Garchomp can't come in for free. If I have Vaporeon out, what happens if I Surf while you switch in, or maybe even Ice Beam, or maybe even Toxic. If you sacrifice something for Garchomp to have a free switch-in, how is that good for the Support Characteristic? And if I do finish off some fodder pokemon then Garchomp comes in, you're literally wasting a pokemon on your team to beat one of mine. That's 2 pokemon for the price of 1 so to say. Usually not a good trade off.

You'll find that the best teams usually have a backup to threats such as Gyarados, in the form of not just one counter. They usually have another counter or a check of some sort too. Maybe this is suggesting that Garchomp might provide a new challenge for OU?

Either way, this is all theorymon. Choice Scarf was the most used set in July, not SD which everyone seems to worry about. While I'm not saying Garchomp is a bad pokemon, as it is a Suspect after all, I just find the comments on the last 2-3 pages to make it out to be some unstoppable force that will destroy OU.

Garchomp counters:
Maybe Skarmory, Maybe Bronzong, Maybe Reflect Cress all depending on set.

Of the 3 counters listed, only one has reliable recovery, and the only way you're revenging Garchomp is when it's locked into Outrage. Garchomp is a decent sweeper, but an overpowering wall-breaker in OU as he 2HKOs anything and everything in the tier with two different sets (CB and SD). The fact there is no safe switch-in means that you're probably going to have to sacrifice something in order to revenge kill him. That means you lose your check/counter to something and numerous other threats can sweep because of it.

In Ubers he can be walled decently by defensively based Lugias or Giratinas, yet is still an amazing revenge killer with the scarf set and quite a good sweeper in his own right. That's where he belongs.

 

[Nachos]

Garchomp counters:
Maybe Skarmory, Maybe Bronzong, Maybe Reflect Cress all depending on set.

Of the 3 counters listed,

I thought this idea of countering every Pokemon was dismissed along time ago.

?? I've already said you don't beat counters to beat Garchomp, and because a pokemon doesn't have a counter it doesn't mean that it's uber. I used Lucario and Salamence as examples.

only one has reliable recovery, and the only way you're revenging Garchomp is when it's locked into Outrage. Garchomp is a decent sweeper, but an overpowering wall-breaker in OU as he 2HKOs anything and everything in the tier with two different sets (CB and SD). The fact there is no safe switch-in means that you're probably going to have to sacrifice something in order to revenge kill him. That means you lose your check/counter to something and numerous other threats can sweep because of it.

You've completly missed the whole point of my post. The "switch-in pokemon" state of mind works both ways. Garchomp cannot switch in safely on the majority of the Top 10 pokemon that were used in July. I used CB Chomp for the majority of Suspect and found it to be underwhelming. I was too afraid to Earthquake in fear of letting Skymin/Latios have a free switch-in, and everytime I used Outrage, I would either be faced by a Steel or if I had just picked something off like Jirachi under 30% health, have Latios come in and finish me off.

I feel like I'm just repeating myself. In response to your last sentence, I've already said:

You'll find that the best teams usually have a backup to threats such as Gyarados, in the form of not just one counter. They usually have another counter or a check of some sort too.

Theorymon only goes so far. I've found that SD and CB Garchomp is overrated on Suspect, and the stats agree too.

 

[WarriorPrince]

This is false, actually. Manaphy most fearsome set has been used properly only during stage 3, being able to make 101 HP substitutes, with its good typing and defences, it can set up on almost every wall in the game (including Blissey, which usually is 2hko'd by a +6 surf). And it definitely doesn't need rain dance to work properly.

Manaphy will definitely still be a potent sweeper as I stated. Just not as broken as he was in Ubers.

I agree, the sub tail glow set will work regardless, and there exist no "true" counter to that set. Lanturn could do pretty well, but he's UU for a reason.