Metagame np: Stage 3 - Grace (Carracosta and Barbaracle Have Been Banned!)

[g]

banner by brightobject ​

This time around the PU tier was kind of shaken. Someone might be happy, someone might be less happy. With this tier shift we lost some of the best Pokemon we had in Poliwrath (rip banner pls brightobject save us), Pawniard, Torterra and Aurorus so it is definitely going to be quite different. We got nothing back as usual so we will see what the old threats will perform now. The song for this round is Grace by Aesop Rock because no Poli means Roselia is now even more godly and the only best water check hele

In any case here are the usual potential discussion topics to start talking in this threads

• New Stage - If there are tier shifts, make some predictions on what the metagame will be like or comment on the changes
• Suspect Testing - If you believe that anything is worthy of a suspect test, post about it and why you think it deserves a suspect test. (nothing will be chosen as a suspect until at least two weeks in though, if even that)
• Metagame trends - What are the most common or effective strategies? Are there any Pokemon that you think will rise in usage?
• Top threats - What should the main priorities be when considering a team for PU?
• Playstyles - Which are most effective? Are there any that cannot succeed?
• Cores - What are some popular or solid cores? Why do they work so well, and what can be used to beat them?
• Underrated Pokemon - Just because a Pokemon isn't used much doesn't mean its bad! There are plenty of hidden gems scattered throughout low PU and FU, and possibly even Little Cup!
• New sets - If you have a unique set that you've had success with recently, share it.

You can find the usage stats and a list of playable PU Pokemon here

Current PU Banlist (BL4):
Throh
Victreebel

 

[Ares]

RIP Aurorus, that Dino was amazing.

I'm super happy that Poliwrath rose as well as Pawniard, solely because Pawniard without Poliwrath might of been to good. It is rather unfortunate that nothing dropped as its always fun to play with new drops. However, with Poliwrath moving up I think this will open the door for a lot of Pokemon that Poliwraths presence was suppressing, similar to Spiritomb in NU.

 

[g]

Nvm Carracosta stays lol

 

[Choice Banned]

Well Barbaracle and Carracosta just got a whole lot better.

 

[tom holland]

Some small predictions on this stage of the meta


Kadabra now doesn't have to run hp fighting so it won't get outspeed by rapidash all the time anymore, which is nice, it also can run different coverage now or a support move

FREE PALPITOAD

And the obvious fact that the smashers are amazing.

Mightyena also looks nicer with torterra and Poliwrath gone. If carracosta was gone it would be even better.

 

[trc]

Some small predictions on this stage of the meta


Kadabra now doesn't have to run hp fighting so it won't get outspeed by rapidash all the time anymore, which is nice, it also can run different coverage now or a support move

FREE PALPITOAD

And the obvious fact that the smashers are amazing.

Mightyena also looks nicer with torterra and Poliwrath gone. If carracosta was gone it would be even better.

Kadabra still uses HP Fighting for (Air Balloon) Probopass.

 

[brightobject]

yo so what do you want in your new PU banner? Not very familiar with the PU scene, I'm afraid :( should I wait to see what the new top threats are before I begin?

 

[gasquakee]

Some small predictions on this stage of the meta


Kadabra now doesn't have to run hp fighting so it won't get outspeed by rapidash all the time anymore, which is nice, it also can run different coverage now or a support move

FREE PALPITOAD

And the obvious fact that the smashers are amazing.

Mightyena also looks nicer with torterra and Poliwrath gone. If carracosta was gone it would be even better.

Yeah like TRC said I would still run HP Fighting for Probopass a lot of the time. Also funnily enough ive tried Palpitoad and its a mediocre smash check at best. Maybe that gives it a niche until we potentially ban them ?_?.

 

[ManOfMany]

Bibarel @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Waterfall
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt

Look, it's a Shell Smash Check that can also set up rocks!

 

[Raiza]

This metagame doesn't look (too) bad, especially if the Shell Smash users go, but I don't want to make predictions without having played the ''new'' tier itself, so I'm probably going to build some teams and post more thoughts later here. Poliwrath's rise was of course a big shake in PU, as it was the main check to Pokemon such as Barbaracle, Carracosta, and Pawniard because of its natural bulk and excellent defensive typing, and every playstyle will probably be affected by this, as it was one of the most splashable Pokemon we had. Fortunately, along with Poliwrath, Pawniard also went and rose, so we at least have one thing less we have to worry about, but the two Shell Smash users will still kinda be a pain in the butt to deal with. Since I'm talking about Shell Smash users, obviously I have to mention that Carracosta and Barbaracle received a big potential boost with this rise in particular, but we have to see still. I'll try to build around Barbaracle + Toxic Spikes (Roselia), as from what I can see they look very threatening, as Toxic Spikes cripple the only left Barbaracle checks / counters, which are mainly Tangela and few other underrated physical walls.

Other minor, but probably important, things that come to my mind about the rise of Poliwrath are that Mightyena won't be forced to run Play Rough even though it can't be replaced by any relevant / impactful move and it is still useful for Machoke tbh, one I can think of is Thunder Fang to deal with defensive Pelipper and deal something that isn't negative damage to Barbaracle and Carracosta but it still sounds meh. Mightyena also appreciates Torterra gone, as it was a solid check, also it can't run Ice Fang because it's useless with Torterra gone. There are now situations where Simipour could prefer running the ol' SubPlot set to the Mixed Attacker one, as it isn't TOTALLY walled by anything in particular now, even though the latter set is still a really good and preferred most of the time option. Stunfisk and Piloswine find less competition as Ground-types Stealth Rock setters, Stunfisk in particular appreciates Torterra gone as it was a blank counter and an horrible lead matchup to play against. Golduck will reign supreme as special abuser in Rain so people might prepare better against it, while previously it could've been kinda unexpected as Poliwrath is also a really good abuser. There are still a lot of things affected by this tier shift but I want to test the metagame more before posting about them so these are my thoughts for now.

 

[Grim]

Mightyena should still use Play Rough for Machoke tbh

Smashers look really threatening with their main check gone, though Poliwrath was always a shaky Barbaracle check because Aerial Ace does a lot at +2. Barbaracle can now use Poison Jab to threaten Tangela and lord Quilladin somewhat which is nice, or not depending on how you look at it. Ice Beam Carracosta is also better now with only fat Steel-types such as Metang bothering it. Both are definitely something to look at for a possible suspect in the future. Actually Water-types in general will be much better as long as they beat Roselia, looking forward to trying Waterspam again.

Also Palpitoad is bad ;-; , use based Ditto.

I'm not back yet, just have some internet for now

 

[Funbot28]

Ya can definitely see a suspect on Barbaracle and Carracosta, now that Poli and Torterra are gone. We can also be looking at a suspect on the move Shell Smash in general, as that's the broken aspect of both mons. There really no other mons in PU that use these moves IIRC, so I believe it's reasonable enough...

 

[Dundies]

Ya can definitely see a suspect on Barbaracle and Carracosta, now that Poli and Torterra are gone. We can also be looking at a suspect on the move Shell Smash in general, as that's the broken aspect of both mons. There really no other mons in PU that use these moves IIRC, so I believe it's reasonable enough...

Torkoal is another mon that uses it and it's actually one of its main sets, so its doubtful that we would only ban Shell Smash.

Like everyone has been saying, the suspect of Barbaracle and Carracosta are likely, as we just lost two of the biggest checks to both of them. Barbaracle will now be able to run Poison Jab or X-Scissor, at the cost of not being being completely walled by only Gourgeist-XL really. Carracosta will be able to run Ice Beam or Waterfall now in order to hit Tangela or just have a more reliable STAB, as Zen Headbutt isn't necessary to hit Poliwrath.

On another note, the loss of Poliwrath frees the way for Water-types in general to run rampant, and I could see Simipour and Floatzel becoming very good as well. Simipour will no longer need to run Grass Knot for Poliwrath, as it can now just run HP Electric instead, and Floatzel lost one of its biggest checks in general.

Overall, I think the shift was ok for the tier, as it spiced it up a good bit, but it will definitely be much more balanced once we figure out what we're going to do with Carracosta, Barbaracle, and possibly more.

 

[Rennyjesus]

Simipour and Floatzel don't look like a huge problem besides now being amazing sweepers... However Barba and Costa looks both pretty much hideous... Jolly Costa isn't that fast but it can run through much more things being bulkier and getting a nice powered Ice Beam... I dunno...

 

[Magnemite]

I'll post a few things that are really good right now:

Floatzel @ Choice Specs
Ability: Water Veil
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Switcheroo
- Baton Pass

You don't really need Hidden Power Electric since Poliwrath left and one of Pelipper's big niches is gone, so you only really need these two moves. Other than Roselia, very little can stop this from steamrolling through teams with its STAB alone. It also pairs really well with all Simipour sets other than Scarf because it wears down special walls and can cripple them with Switcheroo. Water spam will be very good, and Floatzel will be the face of it.

Roselia @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 132 Def / 124 SpD
Calm Nature
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Spikes
- Synthesis

Roselia didn't get much better, but it will get more common because it's one of the only good checks to the threatening special Water-types in the tier now that Poliwrath left. Aside from Clefairy it's the only really good switch-in to Floatzel, and Spikes and Toxic Spikes are as good as ever, especially since the meta looks like it will take a more offensive turn.

Barbaracle @ White Herb
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Shell Smash
- Razor Shell
- Stone Edge
- Poison Jab

All right, here's the elephant in the room. It's well known that this thing will be ridiculous without Poliwrath around because it can now run stronger coverage for Grass-types, but there are a few other things going for it this tier shift. The loss of Pawniard means that Memento support is much easier to provide, and while it lost a mon it could set up on, it also lost two mons that had priority that could help wear it down. Outside of defensive Tangela and Gourgeist-XL, nothing can beat this without outspeeding it, and the only thing that outspeeds +2 Jolly Barbaracle is the mediocre Scarf Raichu.

Honestly the worst thing about the Shell Smash users right now is that Barbaracle has defensive checks but only one offensive one (if it's Jolly), and Carracosta has offensive checks but no defensive ones (if it's running Ice Beam). This makes Barbaracle much more of a problem, but Carracosta is still a problem too.

 

[Deej Dy]

I agree with a future suspect on shell smashers Barbaracle and Carracosta, maybe just a combination of the move and these Pokemon (long live torkoal and Magcargo!)

I agree with Magnemite in that this is a good thing in the long run. Poliwrath was a huge crutch mon for the entire tier, walling many relevant threats and having multiple viable movesets while not being offensively threatening enough to be called "broken". I look forward to the post Shell Smash suspect (which I am inclined to believe because running Tangela/Gourg super on every team sucks (Ice beam Costa says hi)

Perhaps Golem could have a potential comeback now that Tort is gone, but I doubt it will ever be as good as Piloswine.

 

[g]

Just posting to clear the fact that banning Shell Smash in itself won't ever be on the table if we happen to test any of Barbaracle / Carracosta.

Thank you for your attention.

 

[noobcubed]

Yeah, Poliwrath was really not a good influence on the tier. Literally your spot on the viability rankings rose or fell a full rank depending on your match-up against it. Every time I tried to build around a different Water-type, I would start to think, "Why am I not using Poliwrath?"

 

[MZ]

Yeah, Poliwrath was really not a good influence on the tier. Literally your spot on the viability rankings rose or fell a full rank depending on your match-up against it. Every time I tried to build around a different Water-type, I would start to think, "Why am I not using Poliwrath?"

Simipour and Barb in A+, Floatzel in A (borderline A+) with costa, golduck pelipper and swanna in B+ all say hi. Wrath was only so omnipotent because of how necessary it was to have a blanket check (especially something that could take on pawn) and losing it as we also lost pawn shouldnt really be too awful once the smasher situation is figured out

 

[noobcubed]

Simipour and Barb in A+, Floatzel in A (borderline A+) with costa, golduck pelipper and swanna in B+ all say hi. Wrath was only so omnipotent because of how necessary it was to have a blanket check (especially something that could take on pawn) and losing it as we also lost pawn shouldnt really be too awful once the smasher situation is figured out

Yes that's my point, every time I used a different Water-type I got run over by those guys you mentioned, and since I'm not really a fan of type-stacking (especially stacking Water-types with Roselia being everywhere), I ended up replacing them for Poliwrath most of the time.

Though to be honest if it was the Smashers & Pawn alone that were forcing every team to run Poliwrath they should probably have been suspected sooner, just sayin'...

 

[trc]

Yes that's my point, every time I used a different Water-type I got run over by those guys you mentioned, and since I'm not really a fan of type-stacking (especially stacking Water-types with Roselia being everywhere), I ended up replacing them for Poliwrath most of the time.

Though to be honest if it was the Smashers & Pawn alone that were forcing every team to run Poliwrath they should probably have been suspected sooner, just sayin'...

it wasn't really like that. Poliwrath barely checked the smashers because they ran coverage to beat it, but this meant it didn't run coverage for other checks so they were in fact manageable, by Pokemon they now have the moveslot to beat. Pawniard had Poliwrath as its main counter but it was a really hard counter and Pawn still had some other checks.

 

[Anty]

Similar to what trc said, i dont think the ban of wrath really made any of these go out of control (esp not baracle) and its just that people are starting to realise how amazing they are. Yes baracle can run a better coverage move, but how great is this? You arent getting past tangela any time soon, and gourgeist still screws it. I guess torterra was a really solid check and wrath could do 35% to its w/ vaccum wave (defensive set was a great counter but was under used af), but the offensive checks (which are the best checks) are still here. At least people are recognising jolly more now, which beats scarf buck/simipour but at a cost of nice power. Carracosta is better now as I feel there is much less down side to running ice beam. I never liked waterfall too much tbh as the only thing that it helped with were physically bulky ground types (stun/tort), machoke, and pawniard - so now there are two real targets, neither with recovery nor are they known as costa checks (also stuff like probopass isnt hard to wear down into ajet range). Freely running ice beam is huge now we have more defensive grass types that are used as checks, and also i have noticed recently (before shifts) more people running jolly/naive, which helps beat simipour/jumpluff. The other big reason for their fall as s-ranks was due to difficulty in setting up, and now barb has lost its most common fodder, but still memento jumpluff/missy help. Overall, yes they have improved (more costa imo), but still stop making it seem like they are garbodor broken level (also stop using passive af teams).

Another mon that has improved is kadabra. I was already liking more near the end of last month, since it is so good for offensive teams as a check to every offensive set up sweeper, and the two mons getting the most hype being set up sweepers really helps. Most offensive teams w/o a really fast scarfer really want this (annoyingly it doesnt work too well with mime) as there are so many set up sweepers that can destroy offense (fortunately the scariest one, fraxure, is outsped by even frostom) meaning that a blanket check to barbaracle/regice/golduck/etc is so helpful.

Obviously there are tons of pokemon that have improved since one of the best mons with checks half the tier went, but I also think as a playstyle, rain has really improved. People are already talking about water spamming now the no1 water immunity is gone (lapras/politoed wont fill this well, sadly), so what better water spam than rain! Although it has lost a sweeper in poliwrath, floatzel and golduck are still really decent as they are not outsped by anything in rain, and have decent power. The next best rain sweepers, carracosta/beartic/armaldo, also appreciate the lack of poliwrath to resist all there stabs. Even though it is minor, auroras leaving is huge as that is the best stop to the playstyle.

Magnemite , I still think HP electric is a staple on floatzel as like you have said as other water types have gotten better, and peli really hasnt lost a big niche as walling poliwrath isnt too hard. IMO defogging will be even better now that pawniard is gone, and every one seems to be hyping offensive teams which will love roselia. Also if rain teams do get better like i think, swift swim may be better on it like how jumpluff/scarf saws would run (water veil is never too huge - the main scald user is peli which beats you w/o hp electric)

 

[Mistress Remilia]

I'm interested to see how new PU will be, especially for some pokemons:
- Basculin: He was always a decent pokemon, but Poli forced the use of Zen Headbutt. He lost his biggest threat & can now afford to run anything else, most likely coverage for other water types, as many water types will rise in viability.
- Mightyena: Same story here, he's really going to enjoy the loss of something who was likely going to stop his rampage.
- Defog/Hazard Removal in general: Pawniard turn Defog into a 50/50 sorta, you either go for Scald, hindering Pawn, but hazards are still there, or you defog, and Pawniard swept you ( most likely ). Who's left is Purugly, who isn't nearly as scary when it comes to Defiant abuser. Also, the loss of Poliwrath benefits Torkoal & Armaldo, as both are basically free Poliwrath switches.
- Barbaracle: This mon was already insane, now he's even more insane, enjoy.
- Marowak, Golem & Rampardos: All were heavily hindered by Torterra or even Lead Aurorus because of their bad lead matchup vs him. Now that he's gone, they probably are going to be better. Ah, and Rampardos received an improvment for both the anti lead set, and the wallbreaking set, as two of his biggest checks are gone, he's going to be quite enjoyable, through still a bad MU vs HO & fast teams.

 

[tom holland]

I'm going to start posting some replays from ladder and pu lobby here of some big threats in this meta now, like water spam and mightyena. With just a few entry hazards and these pokemon, the offensive core really can break through about anything. Water spam beats/wears down about all of Mightyena's counters, such as tangela, carracosta, avalugg, torkoal, and defensive pelipper.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-255707850
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-255707850

All that i needed this match to win was some hazards and to weaken the fatmons, which is what i did and it got me the match easy with mightyena.

 

[Nuzzle]

All this talk about water spam reminded me about a set I've been using lately that I think will work nicely in this new meta. I used to run it while Poli was still around as a way to check both S ranks but I think it still serves the purpose:

Gogoat @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 Atk / 180 SpD / 76 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Horn Leech
- Zen Headbutt
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide

AV Gogoat is a great check to most special attackers in the tier, not only because it is able to retaliate with an appropriate coverage move but also maintain its health high with the semi-reliable Horn Leech. Another advantage is that it is physical attacker, which is nice considering that most special attackers have low phy. defense. The speed EVs are there to better check offensive Roselia and the rest into attack and special defense to maximize damage output and bulk.

Here's a list of what it accomplishes to tank and hit back:

Offensive Roselia
252+ SpA Roselia Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 180 SpD Assault Vest Gogoat: 176-210 (45.4 - 54.2%) -- 43% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Gogoat Zen Headbutt vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Roselia: 200-236 (71.1 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Defensive Roselia
0 SpA Roselia Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 180 SpD Assault Vest Gogoat: 128-152 (33 - 39.2%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Gogoat Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 128 Def Eviolite Roselia: 160-190 (52.6 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Simipour
252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 180 SpD Assault Vest Gogoat: 138-164 (35.6 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Gogoat Horn Leech vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Simipour: 326-386 (111.6 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Zebstrika
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Overheat vs. 0 HP / 180 SpD Assault Vest Gogoat: 174-205 (44.9 - 52.9%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Gogoat Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zebstrika: 292-344 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Kadabra
252 SpA Kadabra Signal Beam vs. 0 HP / 180 SpD Assault Vest Gogoat: 102-120 (26.3 - 31%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Gogoat Horn Leech vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kadabra: 276-325 (124.3 - 146.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Floatzel
252 SpA Choice Specs Floatzel Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 180 SpD Assault Vest Gogoat: 144-170 (37.2 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Gogoat Horn Leech vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Floatzel: 362-428 (116.3 - 137.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Grumpig
252+ SpA Grumpig Signal Beam vs. 0 HP / 180 SpD Assault Vest Gogoat: 90-108 (23.2 - 27.9%) -- 79% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Gogoat Horn Leech vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Grumpig: 160-189 (44 - 52%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO

Regice
252 SpA Life Orb Regice Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 180 SpD Assault Vest Gogoat: 211-250 (54.5 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Gogoat Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regice: 150-178 (49.8 - 59.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

Mr. Mime
252 SpA Mr. Mime Psychic vs. 0 HP / 180 SpD Assault Vest Gogoat: 81-96 (20.9 - 24.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ Atk Gogoat Horn Leech vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mr. Mime: 160-189 (72.3 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Articuno
252 SpA Articuno Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 180 SpD Assault Vest Gogoat: 188-224 (48.5 - 57.8%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Gogoat Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 300-356 (93.4 - 110.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Simisear
252 SpA Life Orb Simisear Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 180 SpD Assault Vest Gogoat: 250-296 (64.5 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Gogoat Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Simisear: 292-344 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Pair it with something that can take physical hits e.g. Piloswine, Carracosta (and optionally with heal bell support to sustain its longevity) and you're good to go :)