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We are suspecting Cameruptite and Typhlosion. Additionally, we are replacing the NU ladder with the NU Suspect Ladder - unlike the suspect ladder of OU, Cameruptite and Typhlosion will remain on the suspect ladder, which should be up soon. If you would like to play a match without Cameruptite or Typhlosion, I'm sure most people in the NU PS! chatroom would be willing to give it a go. The NU Suspect Ladder should be up sometime shortly. Reasons for each suspect being chosen will be included at the bottom of the post.
To attain reqs to vote during this suspect test, you must reach 2400 COIL. The B value for this test is 20.0. For those curious, you can find out approximately how many matches you have to play to achieve reqs by inputting your GXE (shown on the ladder page & when you type /rank into the chat) into the following formula:
We will post an alt confirmation thread towards the end of the laddering period, which will last two weeks until approximately April 17th at 11:59pm EST. Votes will take place shortly after that. Feel free to use this thread to discuss all topics related to the suspect test; additionally, please read this so you don't get your post deleted. Thanks. =)
Cameruptite Reasoning:
Camerupt is being suspected for a number of reasons, the main reason is for its sheer power that it exudes (having the highest in NU with Sheer Force). This makes Camerupt incredibly difficult to switch into as common checks to Fire Spam are hit hard by Earth Power or crippled by Will-O-Wisp making teambuilder restrictive. On top of this it is one of the few remaining Mega Pokemon in the tier and is being looked at to see if its to much for NU. Camerupt also has good bulk to help mitigate its low speed, allowing it to take multiple hits before being taken down.
Typhlosion Reasoning:
Typhlosion is a suspect due to its incredible wallbreaking ability, outside of a few specific Pokemon, nearly every defensive threat is 2HKOd by the sheer power of Specs Eruption. On top of this, the majority of Typhlosions checks and counters lack recovery, and are very easy to weaken over the course of the match. This requires that teams have multiple answers to Typhlosion, and heavily restricts teambuilding in NU.
Camerupt: Stay in NU. Although it hits hella hard, its speed definitely limits its ability to be effective in NU, combined with a lack of recovery and the fact that it's affected by all forms of entry hazards. It also has relevant counters in the tier being mantine, audino can CM on it, and offensive pressure.
Typh: Stay in NU. This thing isn't as much a problem as it is an annoyance. Dealing with it in the teambuilder is harder than dealing with it on the battlefield, but neither are too tough. Only case I see for it is overcentralization, which is pretty weak since it wasn't even the most used mon in the tier last month. :]
Camerupt: Stay in NU. Although it hits hella hard, its speed definitely limits its ability to be effective in NU, combined with a lack of recovery and the fact that it's affected by all forms of entry hazards. It also has relevant counters in the tier being mantine, audino can CM on it, and offensive pressure.
Typh: Stay in NU. This thing isn't as much a problem as it is an annoyance. Dealing with it in the teambuilder is harder than dealing with it on the battlefield, but neither are too tough. Only case I see for it is overcentralization, which is pretty weak since it wasn't even the most used mon in the tier last month. :]
I mean, if you look at the usage stats for March, Typh is second only after Hariyama, which is as popular as it is quite largely due to Typh. I'm not sure what I'll vote, but Typh is certainly very centralizing
| 1 | Hariyama | 20.425% |
| 2 | Typhlosion | 20.380% |
Although I haven't been here long, I have seen these two being major threats in NU.
Typhlosion can act a bit like an anti-lead since it has a 150 BP STAB move in Eruption, hitting things hard with Specs or frail fast things with Scarf. Typhlosion is also very overcentralizing in the tier (although I do not want that to be the only reason it gets banned). As of right now, I am going to say no ban on Typh, but I can always have my mind changed, ;)
Mega Camerupt is a pretty cool Pokemon (that we are going to lose to RU anyways) and while it has a huge amount of power and because of that there are almost no switchins, I believe its speed really cripples it as even at max speed, it is still outsped by a lot of common Pokemon in NU. I believe this thing is good, but not amazing (unless of course you are iplaytennislol and run it on a Trick Room team) and as of that, I am leaning towards no ban.
Camerupt: Ban. The fact that it hits like a truck and has access to decent utility moves and being knock off resistant is extremely good. It can go mixed to not entirely get stopped by yama.
Typh: Stay in NU. Like what Goomy said, this thing isn't really as much a problem in game than it is an annoyance. On paper, it is extremely limiting and hard to deal with, but it can be easily stopped by playing smartly around it.
Will add more in later.
Edit:
Typhlosion: Stays in Nu as well. Specs Eruption isnt that strong, 8 pp isnt alot, protect spam ruins it. Rain ruins it, it dies too one hit.
Why are you telling them to rip the suspect just started smh. Tbh its this kinda attitude that makes me against extensive suspect testing. Neither of these suspects are clearly broken at all and the fact that people are already considering them gone just confirms the stupid attitude that people have towards suspects. A suspect doesnt mean that we're "finally getting rid of mons" it means that we're testing the mons that people think might be too much for the tier.
I urge everyone to abandon this cancerous attitude that just because we're suspecting something it'll automatically leave the tier. I personally don't think either of these mons are broken or centralizing enough to justify a ban. I'll post more later as im on a phone right now but I just wanted to chime in and stop anymore comments like this early. Back up your opinions if you think something is broken, otherwise you're not contributing anything to the conversation.
Camerupt: Stay in NU. Although it hits hella hard, its speed definitely limits its ability to be effective in NU, combined with a lack of recovery and the fact that it's affected by all forms of entry hazards. It also has relevant counters in the tier being mantine, audino can CM on it, and offensive pressure.
Typh: Stay in NU. This thing isn't as much a problem as it is an annoyance. Dealing with it in the teambuilder is harder than dealing with it on the battlefield, but neither are too tough. Only case I see for it is overcentralization, which is pretty weak since it wasn't even the most used mon in the tier last month. :]
4 Atk Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mantine: 222-262 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
I wouldn't call Mantine a counter. Rock Slide can be run specifically to hit that as well as things like Archeops. Sure, Mantine outspeeds but it can't switch in for free.
Also:
4 SpA Mantine Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Camerupt: 276-328 (80.2 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It can't KO with Scald.
Camerupt doesn't really get set up on by Audino if it can land a couple of Fire Blasts.
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Audino: 228-268 (55.6 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Audino: 153-180 (37.3 - 43.9%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
55.6+37.3+12=104.9%
It can't touch Camerupt with Dazzling Gleam, even if it is an extremely rare Hyper Voice variant:
+1 0 SpA Mega Audino Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Camerupt: 117-138 (34 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Camerupt: Can't take Water Attacks to save a life, has pitiful speed, Trick Room is hard to pull off with protect spam and fake out spam. Has an amazing power with Fire Blast, Earth Power, and sheer force combined with sun, but outside of that, there is too much running around uu for it to take a hit, too many special walls, too much umbreon especially.
Because having a 4x weakness (to water) automatically means it isn't broken, ok. Yes, it is slow, but it also is quite bulky with mega+HP investment and can easily be used without trick room or sun in nu. It has hardly any counters and even less counters that are often used as fire checks, so it being suspected is justified.
Typhlosion: Stays in Nu as well. Specs Eruption is powerful, but 8 pp isnt alot, protect spam ruins it. Rain ruins it, it dies too one hit.
only needs 8pp to kill at least a couple mons, idk how that is an issue. also, rain isn't too common, lol.
your logic doesn't seem to hit the nail on the head here with why / why not these pokemon can be seen as broken or not, no offense.
I'll quote my last post from the stage 4 thread to sum up my general opinion on the matter:
The current state of the NU metagame is still unbalanced, in my opinion. It is true that the last suspects' outcome propelled NU from being entrenched in an abyss filled with limitations in building, due to some of the controversial threats, to an improved state, but I think there's a bit more to be done before a so-called "balance" is reached (I'd say feel free to disagree with this assessment of the metagame, but it appears as if the heavy majority of posters want a suspect of some sort, so odds are the general consensus is that another suspect should occur).
When anyone with a sufficient amount of experience in NU plays, they can undoubtedly come to the conclusion that there isn't one pokemon that is as dominant and consistently effective as something like Mega-Steelix was in the past, nor is anything as conveniently uncounterable by most things as Heliolisk was. This makes things a bit more challenging as there's no "obvious" choice for a potential suspect, but something doesn't need to be blatantly overpowered (like Heliolisk was, imo) or too good not to use on many teams (like Mega Steelix was, imo) to be suspect worthy. A pokemon that simply lacks a "fair amount" of counters or is dominating the tier to a lesser extent can still be deemed banworthy if people believe it is harmful to the state of the tier and can justifiably advocate it's suspect/ban. With this being said, the logical question that comes to mind is: what pokemon lacks a "fair amount" of counters or is dominating the tier to some extent?
Well, in my opinion, the generalized "specially offensive fire type" group comes to mind as you need to go out of your way to cater to these pokemon on every team (which makes things like AV Hariyama far more common than it otherwise would be on offense/balanced and Mantine more common in general). This brings another question to mind: how can one differentiate the normal, expected use of checks and counters to threats that are common in the metagame from unreasonable, being forced to go out of your way use of checks and counters to threats that are common? It's hard to put this in words, so I'll use an example or two.
The way I see it, there are a lot of Calm Mind Psychic type pokemon in NU (Uxie, Musharna, Xatu, etc.) and generally, they are checked and countered by the same things (barring an offensive Uxie with a funky coverage move or something similar to this). Because of this, you usually only have to bring one "stop" (Eviolite SD Sneasel with hazard removal (takes Signal Beams and can set up a countersweep), Liepard (more of an offensive answer), Klinklang (tanks anything and can set up a countersweep), etc.) to these pokemon and you're usually able to handle them without too much trouble. This is how things normally go - you don't have to compromise too much in your team to keep things in check and you're able to run offense without being blatantly weak to something or forced to run a very specific pokemon/set.
Another common sight in NU is Specially Offensive Fire types (Typhlosion, Mega-Camerupt, Magmortar, Pyroar, and (lol) Simisear in a rough order of viability and effectiveness). While for the aforementioned Psychics, you only needed to really carry one pokemon to keep them in check, this is rarely the case for fires; in fact, I'd say that it's an unwritten rule of NU teambuilding to carry multiple fire resists / checks unless you have one the very few full-stops to most of the fires and a lot of priority of pressure being applied on fire types conssitently, which is still a risky way to go. While there are plenty of individual pokemon who can claim to check Typhlosion (AV Hariyama, SDef Seismitoad, Bulkyish Mega Camerupt, Bulky SR Rhydon, Lanturn, Prinplup, Mantine, etc.) or Mega Camerupt (AV Hariyama, SDef Seismitoad, Prinplup, Mantine, Pelipper, etc.), a majority of them either lack survivability/recovery, cannot check all of the fires (or even multiple), don't fit onto offensive teams, and/or have other crippling flaws which make dealing with fire types a major limitation on teambuilding due to their nature in NU and the nature of their checks/counters, too. With this being said, unlike the compared Psychics, something could be done to weaken this and help free teambuilding and the tier in general IF (!!!) there is a fire type or multiple fire types that stand out as specifically hard to deal with and there can be a case made to suspect/ban them. This leads to the third question: are there fire types in NU that are suspect or ban worthy?
After going through the examples in the hide tags and thinking about the meta, the two most dominant fire types (by far) and (not coincidentally) the two most controversial pokemon in general, imo, are Typhlosion and Mega-Camerupt.
Typhlosion is generally seen running a Specs or Scarf set. The former is potent beyond belief, 2hko'ing pretty much the entire unresisted metagame and doing a fair chunk to most resists, too. The latter (scarf) set is still effective and can be seen on many teams, but it is a bit easier to take on and doesn't have the ability to eventually overpower opposing threats without support and being forced out multiple times in the process of doing so. Taking this into consideration, I'll focus more on the Specs set and how it can potentially be seen as a bit too strong for the tier as it's really the only thing that may break Typhlosion. It generally runs Eruption, Fire Blast, Focus Blast, and either Hidden Power Grass or Extrasensory (depends on team, but I believe HP Grass is more common and hits more pokemon). Most of the time, however, it is just spamming Eruption if it's near full and Fire Blast otherwise as these specs boosted STAB attacks do a ton. Normal stops to offensive fire types like Seismitoad, non-rest Lanturn, Prinplup, Rhydon, Hariyama and non-rest Mantine are easily worn down to the point that they can no longer stop Typhlosion after taking a hit or two, leading to the notion that you need multiple fire checks (which I touched on in the hide tags) and the fact that this thing is arguably overpowered. With this being said, Typhlosion isn't the easiest thing to switch in and it is weak to stealth rock, so it does have cons and doesn't stand out too much as being blatantly broken.
Note: the spreads were mostly taken from the ps calc as I'm not an avid user of pokemon such as Lanturn or Prinplup and you have to take into consideration the fact that these pokemon are vulnerable to all hazard / status / other residual damage and lack recovery outside of leftovers
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Seismitoad: 191-225 (47.6 - 56.1%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Seismitoad: 140-165 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- 69.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 144-170 (35.9 - 42.3%) -- 92.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Lanturn: 204-240 (46.3 - 54.5%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Prinplup: 135-159 (40.6 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Prinplup: 93-109 (28 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Mantine: 102-121 (30.6 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 137-162 (33 - 39.1%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Thick Fat Hariyama: 136-162 (31.7 - 37.7%) -- 90.8% chance to 3HKO [the spread I used for this has less SDef than I usually put for some reason, so should do a few % less normally]
Not going to include calcs of coverage moves because that requires Typhlosion to predict the opponent's switch-in perfectly and this is mainly meant to show the power of spamming STAB Eruption and how these pokemon can't switch in multiple time given their lack of survivability and Typh's strength.
Mega-Camerupt, on the other hand, isn't able to abuse fast, specs boosted attacks, but still deals a lot of damage off its sky-high special attack and with Sheer Force as its ability when mega evolved. The lack of speed and poor defensive typing can come back to hurt Mega Camerupt, but good bulk helps remedy this, so this isn't too backbreaking of a con, but it's still worth noting. Anyway, checks and counters to Camerupt are sparse, moreso than Typhlosion I'd say, but it is easier to revenge, soft-check, or at least force out Camerupt due to its lack of speed. The best answers are Mantine, Hariyama, Archeops, and Pelipper, I'd say, give or take a pokemon or two. It threatens so many teams off-the-bat upon switching in, it's not too hard to get in thanks to its bulk, and like Typhlosion, it can wear down Hariyama / non-rest Mantine / others pretty easily, but they at least have the ability to outpace and always force Camel out assuming they can pressure it offensively. Again, I'll post some relevant calcs.
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 212 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 172-204 (40 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Mantine: 88-104 (26.4 - 31.2%) -- 16.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 164 Def Mantine: 180-212 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery [Camerupt is a bit bulkier and easier to predict with than Typhlosion because it isn't locking into a move, so I'll post this despite it being hard to nail Mantine much and Rock Slide not being a staple on Mega Camerupt - it's still a solid move on it]
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Archeops: 196-231 (67.3 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pelipper: 184-217 (56.9 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Seismitoad: 268-316 (66.8 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Seismitoad: 196-232 (48.8 - 57.8%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
As you can see, Camel does quite a bit of damage and is hard to counter although it can be checked when you have the appropriate pokemon and play it properly. I'd say it's a bit less suspect worthy than Typh by virtue of it having so low speed, but I'd like to see them both suspected and there's nothing to lose from doing that (I wouldn't outright say I'm pro-ban on either, I'd be on the fence and interested to see what people have to say).
Mega Camerupt: Camerupt's unique typing is great both offensively and defensively. Very little in the tier can can switch into fire/ground coverage, the only one off the too of my head is Mantine, but Mega Camerupt's speed makes it so anything faster with water coverage can check it offensively. Its defensive typing is really great too, it's resistances and immunity to electric have shaped the metagame in a way that a few things have trouble being used like Klinklang and scarf rotom, which Rotoms aren't really even scarfed anymore just because of mega camerupt. Every free switch Mega Camerupt gets turns into a guessing game of "is he clicking Earth Power or Fire Blast?". The metagame has turned into "don't give Mega Camerupt a free switch, or bring mantine." I'm leaning towards ban, but its speed is easily taken advantage of, so I can be persuaded for no ban.
Typhlosion: The metagame has adapted to Typhlosion I feel. There are numerous options when teambuilding to check Typhlosion. There's a bunch of fire resists viable in the tier, and even a bunch of flash fire mons are available to choose from like Flareon or Ninetales. It gets affected by all forms of hazards too. No Ban
Can-Eh-Dian First thoughts I am sorry for my post before, I can't make jokes and I feel bad
Mega Camerupt - I want this mon out of NU, I admit it's speed it very bad but then again lets look at Escavalier, Ampharos and other amazing pokemon in higher tiers with extremly high attack stats yet slow speed, the fact this mon is so powerfull and has very few switch ins in the tier. It can run will-o-wisp three attacks or it can get stealth rocks up, it can use rock polish and basically sweep or it can be specially defensive to take hits very well yet dishing out amazing power without any investment. The max speed set makes for surprising kills which is amazing, and my favorite team structure to use this on is either sticky web/trick room both which work amazing for obvious reasons. It's only major issue is the 4x weakness to water which can be helped with the use of seismitoad or any other mon that want to counter pesky scald users. Overall decision for now = BAN
Typhlosion - This is a strange case for me, I do think this mon is very worthy of leaving the tier because of it high speed and attack with a above average moveset, yet I feel there are way to mons in the tier right now that can effectively stop typhosion, this being mantine, hariyama, and the fact it's best use is choiced, it is very easy to play around hidden power grass and the fire move. It also has the problem of being outsped by arceops and other top tier threats which also outspeed camerupt but camerupt has more bulk and isn't locked into a move that does damage based on your HP (eruption in case you don't know :P). Yes Typhlosion is adapting to the current meta with hidden power electric becoming more common, will-o-wisp for hariyama crippling and earthquake to beat other flash fire typhlosions but it's still not completely enough to be banned from the tier overall. Overall decision for now = NO BAN
Camerupt: Not too sure. I'm in the middle for this thing. It's so strong just hits like a truck. It gets access to yawn which I've found myself using on my one Mega Camerupt I've ever used in NU. Yawn can force switches and just annoy people because of obvious reasons. But it's stupidly slow and trick room requires a pokemon that can be there for something else at the same time and there are not many that can fill that role. It's defences are good. 70/100/105 is not bad. In fact, it can definitely take hits well. And if you decide to give some ev investment into one of then then even better. Camerupt almost always goes last so it will mostly take some form of damage. It has no recovery outside of rest so it relies on wish or healing wish if you want to keep it around. Overall, I just can't decide.
Typhlosion: When I heard my favourite pokemon was getting suspect tested along with a volcanic camel of death and slowness. I was happy but I wondered whether or not it should be moved up. As I've looked through all the other replies I noticed that people said that it was just annoying. I also find Typhlosion annoying to deal with if I haven't got one on my team (which I always do XD). I think it should be banned from NU because it will allow easier team building. People have to build their team around countering this beautiful but simple creature. The grass types in NU can come out of hiding as they wouldn't be having to deal with a specs/ scarf eruption coming their way. It would allow more variety. Flash fire has made this thing much better as well being completely immune to fire attacks.
I'm not really too big on this tier so don't kill me for anything I missed or got wrong. I only came here because my favourite pokemon was getting suspect tested XD. I have played my fair share of NU and I have came up against super annoying Typhlosions. Camerupt is one I haven't had to deal with a lot.
Mega Rupt is trash with its weaknesses and god awful speed and should stay NU just so that we have a few in the tier.
Typhlosion really isn't hard to kill, and while eruption does a lot of damage, there are plenty NU Pokemon that can knock it out before it can become an annoyance.
Both of these suspects personally don't stand out as Pokemon that are threatening to the tier.
I think both will have a good chance of remaining in NU. Switching in on either of them is borderline impossible indeed, but checking them isn't too difficult. Mega-Rupt is forced out by pretty much every water type due to its low speed and typhlosion, while less concerned for speed has has to account for certain checks like samurott and Rhydon if it's the choice sets. Neither of them also have the most extensive movepool so most of the time the sets they use is the same (once or twice there may be a mega-rupt that has hp grass or a typhlosion with extrasensory bit those are few and far between.) I think it's more because they're seen so often that we generally know what to eexpect. No ban for now imo
Mega Camerupt: It can put in a lot of work on teams, but it really needs support as it gets worn down rather quickly while it punches holes in teams. Some common scenarios you'll find yourself is trying to safely switch this monster in and then proceeding to blast away at the opponent. It only has a base 40 Spe prior and then a base 20 Spe after the mega, and this is really important with this mon. Healing Wish is almost absolutely mandatory to make this the major threat. If you do get your Mega Camerupt in, it punishes most teams as fire resists like Rhydon can be hurt by Earth Power but there are mons like Mantine that don't have to deal with this (unless Stone Edge/Ancient Power I guess). It seems fairly balanced in the meta right now because of its Speed stat, but maybe that's because I haven't ever faced a TR team with one yet.
Typhlosion: The Fire type with pretty limited coverage actually puts in so much more work than Mega Camel because it actually has speed. Scarf/Specs Eruption is all you really need and dents most of the tier. It's a bit harder to force out than Mega Camel because it comes off a base 100 Spe and Eruption is base 150 power, but it does share the same checks as Camel but with its limited coverage Rock types can actually do work since they only have to get hit by Focus Miss rather than a STAB Earth Power. Seismitoad also notably does better as a switch-in against Typh as it doesn't have to eat a Earth Power and chances are you'll only be sending it in to take the Eruption from Typh so HP Grass isn't really bothersome.
Tl;dr: Mega Camel limits the number of switch-ins because of its access to Earth Power and a strong Rock coverage move but has soft checks that can outrun and wear it down thanks to its base speed. Typh is the other way in that it has more switch-ins due to limited coverage, but they're pressured more since Typh actually has the speed to punish potential soft-checks that would try to wear it down. Camel seems pretty balanced rn but Typh I'd have to abstain until more laddering.
Mega Camerupt: Camerupt's unique typing is great both offensively and defensively. Very little in the tier can can switch into fire/ground coverage, the only one off the too of my head is Mantine, but Mega Camerupt's speed makes it so anything faster with water coverage can check it offensively. Its defensive typing is really great too, it's resistances and immunity to electric have shaped the metagame in a way that a few things have trouble being used like Klinklang and scarf rotom, which Rotoms aren't really even scarfed anymore just because of mega camerupt. Every free switch Mega Camerupt gets turns into a guessing game of "is he clicking Earth Power or Fire Blast?". The metagame has turned into "don't give Mega Camerupt a free switch, or bring mantine." I'm leaning towards ban, but its speed is easily taken advantage of, so I can be persuaded for no ban.
Typhlosion: The metagame has adapted to Typhlosion I feel. There are numerous options when teambuilding to check Typhlosion. There's a bunch of fire resists viable in the tier, and even a bunch of flash fire mons are available to choose from like Flareon or Ninetales. It gets affected by all forms of hazards too. No Ban
Ok. You said you can be persuaded. So here's my shot
Camerupt SHOULD NOT be banned.
Carracosta, Frogadier, Golduck, Gorebys, Huntail, Kingler, Lanturne, Lapras, Lumineon, Octillery, Poliwrath, Seismitoad, Seadra, Simipour, Wailord, Whiscash, Wailrein, all OHKO and OUTSPEED with Waterfall, Hydro Pump, Scald, you get it right? All with at least max investment in either attack or sp.attack.
Take the list above that most of all can survive A specs Eruption from Typhlosion, and that Rhydon can not only survive eruption thanks to Eviolite and Max HP, which is nearly universal, so with so many pokemon that can hard counter Mega Camerupt AND Typhlosion, so NEITHER should be banned.
Just because you can outspeed and OHKO something doesn't mean it isn't broken. None of those Water types can switch into Earth Power safely. It OHKOs at least half of that list, Walrein and Lapras can't even switch into Fire Blast because of its Ice typing. SpDef Seismitoad there is probably the only defensive answer to Camerupt that avoids the 2HKO, and Camerupt always will have answers that basically render Specially Defensive waters a liability.
Camerupt might be not broken - I don't think this is a no brainer ban here for anyone. But having 4x weakness doesn't automatically mean it shouldn't be banned. If every 4x weakness Pokemon shouldn't be banned, there are a lot of slippery slope arguments to be made.
You have to realize that we're suspecting it, and it doesn't mean that it will 100% be banned. We want some discussion and conversation here. Different people have different opinions, and that's just fine. All I ask is everyone to consider both sides. You're free to express your opinion, but just because you believe it one way, it's not OK to keep repeating the same 1 line argument about weaknesses and just ignore what everyone else has to say.
Ok. You said you can be persuaded. So here's my shot
Camerupt SHOULD NOT be banned.
Carracosta, Frogadier, Golduck, Gorebys, Huntail, Kingler, Lanturne, Lapras, Lumineon, Octillery, Poliwrath, Seismitoad, Seadra, Simipour, Wailord, Whiscash, Wailrein, all OHKO and OUTSPEED with Waterfall, Hydro Pump, Scald, you get it right? All with at least max investment in either attack or sp.attack.
Take the list above that most of all can survive A specs Eruption from Typhlosion, and that Rhydon can not only survive eruption thanks to Eviolite and Max HP, which is nearly universal, so with so many pokemon that can hard counter Mega Camerupt AND Typhlosion, so NEITHER should be banned.
Yes, Water-types outspeed and kill it. Listing a long list of Water-types does not make this any more impressive. Your argument is that these Pokemon can be revenge killed, but you aren't addressing the real issue with either of these two which is that they have no safe switch ins.
List of Pokemon that can take less than half from Mega Camerupt: Hariyama, Vibrava, Air Balloon Lanturn, Specially Defensive Seismitoad, and Specially Defensive Prinplup. Notable mentions are Air Balloon Ninetales (gets beaten by Rock Slide/Ancient Power) and Mantine (HP Electric has been becoming common.)
I understand this is a prediction based argument, but this means the Mega Camerupt user will always be in an advantageous position. There will never be a 100% safe switch in to this Pokemon and the ones that do exist are either sub par or get whittled very easily.
Typhlosion, imo, is a much bigger problem. Yes, camel is hard to switch into, but he's way easier to punish on a correct switch in compared to Typhlosion. If you have a dedicated counter to Typhlosion on each team, you probably aren't noticing any problems with him. Hariyama was our #1 used mon during March for a reason. I think we've adapted so much to this Typhlosion we kind of just brush it off at this point. Anything that can avoid getting destroyed by Eruption fears Hidden Power Grass, Extrasensory, Will-O-Wisp, and Earthquake. I'm not very keen on either of these mons and I'm not entering this suspect test with the intent of banning or keeping either of these. I'd love to ride out these discussions and see where they take my opinion on these two huge threats.
Yeah thats cool and all that you can list every Water type in the tier, and even non-viable ones at that, but which actually appreciate switching into an Earth Power? And if you say Mantine, myself and others have used Hidden Power Electric because it is that common and Camerupt can just adapt. Some of these arguments really flat out baffle me because thats just listing stuff that revenge kills it doesnt cut it, since Camerupt quite a few switch in opportunities and its so easy to just cover with teammates.
For my personal views, I'm not sure about a particular decision for either of them. I don't think either are broken, but they are both unhealthy to the tier in some degree.
What stands out to me the most is that most if not all of the viable checks and counters to Fire-types have no reliable recovery and easily get whittled down. This is pretty problematic since some are 3HKOed, meaning that if they switch in once they can't switch in again. To be specific, common Fire type checks include but are not limited to Seismitoad, Hariyama, Rhydon, Ninetales, etc. On the other hand, not /that/ much in the tier general has reliable recovery, but the point still stands. And then there's the side of the argument that if you want to say that Hariyama is a check, Typh can just click Extrasensory on the switch, or hit Rhydon with Hidden Power Grass. Even to a further extent, these two have adapted to their typical checks, with the likes of Charcoal Flash Fire Earthquake Typhlosion for opposing Typh and Ninetales (although balloon is pro), etc. On one hand, like Goomy said, these two may be harder to handle in teambuilding rather than in actuality, and I agree with that partially. When you think about the teambuilding aspect, Fire types limit teambuilding to the point where you need multiple answers to them, which is inherently a problem. I agree with Disjunction that Camerupt is significantly harder to switch into on paper, but its awful Speed and lack of reliable recovery really hold it back sometimes; although not really holding it back from S rank.
Typhlosions combination of Speed, absurd power off the bat, and relative coverage options at its disposal are what make it a problem. As stated, you may not have a problem with it because you're running dedicated answers to it, but thats the answer. Over-preparing for these threats is what makes them unhealthy. And they just as easily adapt to typical checks, Will-O-Wisp Typhlosion is such a pain to switch into since it cripples all of its usual checks. The prediction argument goes both ways, while sure you can play around it, but in those situations Typhlosion or Camerupt is clearly in the better position since it's potentially forcing you to make riskier plays and continuously whittling down your team.
Okay, Let's Imagine Mega Camerupt stays unbanned, and so does Typhlosion. What happens to the metagame? Hariyama stays as one of the most used, not much else. Mantine and Hariyama still fulfill their roles as the most effective "checks" to Mega Camerupt and Typhlosion respectively. Walrein CAN have thick fat for fire blast and has fantastic HP, and their is one thing we should consider, And why does EVERYTHING need to be about switching? Thats not everything their is too dealing with threats, just go to ou and you can't use anything to switch into anything up there, and that doesn't need to happen down here either.
But as for why I don't want mega Camerupt in uu, it's usage will plummet, and all of the "effort" made to make it such a powerful and bulky(kind of) special sweeper, it got out of pu and if it gets out of nu, then in uu no one will EVER use it, and that isn't healthy to remove it from the current metagame since then Hariyama and Mantine would be able to counter Typhlosion, and then they will be on top.
P.S. I use effort in quotes because 120 attack<110 Defense, 115 Sp.Defense. And No Water Absorb
Okay, Let's Imagine Mega Camerupt stays unbanned, and so does Typhlosion. What happens to the metagame? Hariyama stays as one of the most used, not much else. Mantine and Hariyama still fulfill their roles as the most effective "checks" to Mega Camerupt and Typhlosion respectively. Walrein CAN have thick fat for fire blast and has fantastic HP, and their is one thing we should consider, And why does EVERYTHING need to be about switching? Thats not everything their is too dealing with threats, just go to ou and you can't use anything to switch into anything up there, and that doesn't need to happen down here either.
But as for why I don't want mega Camerupt in uu, it's usage will plummet, and all of the "effort" made to make it such a powerful and bulky(kind of) special sweeper, it got out of pu and if it gets out of nu, then in uu no one will EVER use it, and that isn't healthy to remove it from the current metagame since then Hariyama and Mantine would be able to counter Typhlosion, and then they will be on top.
P.S. I use effort in quotes because 120 attack<110 Defense, 115 Sp.Defense. And No Water Absorb
It's seeing plenty of usage in RU, the tier above NU. Not to mention banning things have nothing to do with how well they will do in the tier above. You didn't even know Donphan isn't even NU. It's not always about switching but you're naive if you think Camerupt will stay in on the Scald and just let you OHKO it. I'm not trying to be rude, but it seems like you haven't played NU much, if at all.
But as for why I don't want mega Camerupt in uu, it's usage will plummet, and all of the "effort" made to make it such a powerful and bulky(kind of) special sweeper, it got out of pu and if it gets out of nu, then in uu no one will EVER use it, and that isn't healthy to remove it from the current metagame since then Hariyama and Mantine would be able to counter Typhlosion, and then they will be on top.
This isn't how tiering works. If a pokemon is broken, it gets banned regardless of how it will do in the tier it will move up to upon being banned. For example, we banned Mega Steelix and Heliolisk regardless of their viability or usage in RU.
