Metagame np: Stage 5 - Eruption (Cameruptite and Typhlosion Banned)

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I haven't played at all with camel but all I have seen of it is how easy it is to play around. The same with Typh except while being in my opinion better then camel it is increadably hampered by any form of hazards. Heck my lilligant finds setup opportunities and blows it away. Not to mention AV muk can come in and force it out or net the KO on surviving the extrasensory. Odds are I will vote no ban on both of them.
 

Kiyo

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This wouldn't normally be a problem, but, offense without a fire check just gets destroyed by scarf typh, since half your team is no longer a check, it can come in on tauros / jumpluff / sneasel / fast mon and proceed to click eruption. If you have no fire resist at all, it would seem kinda bad at this point at you would probably have to sack loads of pokemon as a result.
Keeping offensive pressure works vs camel definitely, since its speed is ass, but typh can run a scarf and technically just sweep the offense? Forced out by priority etc but I'm not convinced you can stack a team with base 100+ speed mons with eq / coverage and not be weak to typh, without a fire resist.
scarf typh's eruptions are a yummy snack lol, not to mention offense typically runs a ton of priority and keeps rocks up with a higher success rate than balance
252 SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan: 261-307 (74.3 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mesprit: 208-246 (69.1 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Uxie: 172-204 (59.1 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

edit: i realize you mean it can come in on something that typically outspeeds and net a kill, which is true but offense can afford to sack a mon (so can balance i guess) and reliably set up rocks. keep in mind this is all in the case that im not running even a soft check like samurott, simipour, my own typh, archeops, etc. which should be easy to fit on a team even though they don't "counter" typh
 

Orphic

perhaps
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scarf typh's eruptions are a yummy snack lol, not to mention offense typically runs a ton of priority and keeps rocks up with a higher success rate than balance
252 SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan: 261-307 (74.3 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mesprit: 208-246 (69.1 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Uxie: 172-204 (59.1 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
How do these calcs support your argument in any way? Typh naturally outspeeds these, and so 2HKO's them if they switch in. If they're trying to revenge kill Typhlosion, based on your calcs with Stealth Rock, the Typhlosion player can switch back out, and back in later, with your supposed offensive checks taking even more hazard and chip damage to the point where Typhlosion just rips the entire team apart, even with a Fire Blast.
 

Kiyo

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How do these calcs support your argument in any way? Typh naturally outspeeds these, and so 2HKO's them if they switch in. If they're trying to revenge kill Typhlosion, based on your calcs with Stealth Rock, the Typhlosion player can switch back out, and back in later, with your supposed offensive checks taking even more hazard and chip damage to the point where Typhlosion just rips the entire team apart, even with a Fire Blast.
see its this argument that i'm countering in the first place, by forcing typh out with a check you're gaining momentum, probably forcing sr damage on it (i was generous when i left the calc at full hp and if we're assuming you have hazards up then im assuming I do unless you're using Typh on stall i guess?), i can list all the mons offense uses with priority if you want, but if I'm being honest Scarf Typhlosion is something I've never seen someone use in a tour, and its probably like 1 out of every 10 Typhlosions right now and if I'm winning 90% of the time I'm pretty happy.

thanks for ignoring the edit to my post btw, lol.
 

The Goomy

Whitest Mexican Alive
Considering Typhlosion 3HKO's all of its checks (not literally but you know)
Then stop hyperbolizing everything, holy shit.

Also, I still find it odd that on Smogon, it's common practice to assume your opponent has to switch in on rocks to take an attack, and yet in these calcs Typh is always at 100%. Acting like if you face a Typh, getting rocks up isn't your first priority. "Oh, that's too centralizing Steven, why should rocks be prioritized?". 1. It's the best move in the game. 2. Look at OU, face a Talon, you want rocks, it just helps to cripple it with correct pressure, forces defoggers to take damage etc etc. It's just part of the game, and if you play well you can keep them up.
 

Ares

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tl;dr force typh out with fast mon, get up rocks without letting typh get in (most rock setters can ohko typh), take advantage of the need to clear hazards by setting up, voltturning, double switching favorably, etc. OR they don't clear hazards and typh isn't as effective cuz its just another Fire type again.

^ thats a lot easier in practice than on paper, and doesn't require a fire type resist
tl;dr be better than your opponent and Typhlosion isn't broken.

Js, but the predict and double switch and momentum game works both ways. You don't have to get rid of rocks right away with something like Prinplup, you can Toxic the incoming switch and cripple it and then defog on that or later so you aren't letting that set up. With all of the good hazard removers they have something that can let them deal with common switchins that like to try to take advantadge of them removing hazards. And then there are offensive removers like Archeops and Claydol that can deal lots of damage to switchins. Taking a turn to defog or spin isn't as momentum draining as you let on if you do it at the opportune moment.

--

I do agree that offensive pressure is the way to deal with the suspects. I use it with Typhlosion, but I still run a Fire stop so if I don't predict my opponent 100% I always have something to fall back on. Mega Camerupt on the other hand I've started using solely prediction and offensive pressure to deal with it because just using mantine or like 2 other things in teambuilding isn't fun.
 
Typhlosion
Will most likely vote Ban on this one. Very similar to RU Moltres considering that most of its checks are not so splashable on offensive teams and so reliant on predictions (offensive Rock-types like Archeops get murdered after Stealth Rock (rip Kabutops), Water-types like Samurott tend to be slower and take around 60-70% from STAB Eruption) and you are forced to use more defensive Pokemon that again aren't so reliable (Mantine, Hariyama) because they still take a ton and struggle to recover after multiple switch ins, even if Typhlosion doesn't decide to predict. This is made worse by the evil Charchoal set which just burns Hariyama (which tends to get Knocked Off by turn 10 if you play well and your opponent doesn't have shit like Mega Audino) and the various Wild Charge / Earthquake / Hidden Power Water / Extrasensory baits it can run to beat pretty much everything. Choice Scarf is also pretty strong and this is stronger than in XY i'd argue since Feraligatr and Kabutops aren't around anymore

Mega-Camerupt
I don't really know how i feel about this one since I am not really of the opinion it is fully banworthy. First of all its Lucario like bulk before Mega Evolution and its average bulk after Mega Evolution (stats aren't bad but this thing has no leftovers) and the fact that EVERY time it switches in it has to take two hits (outside of Electric-type locked moves) + , again, having no Leftovers make me think this Pokemon doesn't truly deserve a ban. It is very strong, yes, but when you are outsped even by the walls you threaten and are so prone to any kind of residual outside of burn + take over 50 from any decent STAB you tend not to be that big of a threat. I guess comparison is with Dragalge or Pangoro who could actually outspeed stuff and take out something without being chunked.
 

zbr

less than 99% acc = never hit
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I haven't played at all with camel but all I have seen of it is how easy it is to play around. The same with Typh except while being in my opinion better then camel it is increadably hampered by any form of hazards. Heck my lilligant finds setup opportunities and blows it away. Not to mention AV muk can come in and force it out or net the KO on surviving the extrasensory. Odds are I will vote no ban on both of them.
The problem with the whole "how easy it is to play around" argument is because people have forcefully adapted them into the meta. Things like Mantine, Hariyama, Flash Fire users, Lanturn, AV Magmortar, SpD Toad, Regirock, Fat NFE Dragons are increasing in usage not only because of these two threats but because in general the tier is leaning a lot more towards fire spam because they have very low cost when used on teams. Hazards is definitely a problem but this is much reminiscent of the Moltres in RU issue. However, unlike Tres, Rupt is much easier to "play around" simply for the fact that it is a lot slower than most of it's counters/checks and it has no reliable recovery other than rest. Yes, it can run a physical/mixed set to bait and lure in checks like Yama/Mantine and even run +Spe nature to surprise kill checks like Lanturn that hit just enough for the standard M-rupt but that's about it. It is capable of denting balanced squads but it doesn't invalidate them by being bulkier than it's checks as well as being able to wear them down (M-Lix is an example of this) and as much as I want to say that slow volt turn solves this issue, the fact that Garb+Toad cores are on the rise doesn't serve to help M-Rupt. It would probably be a lot more different if TR was as abusable as we wished it was. Typh on the other hand is a different story simply because there are no strong switches and it has the whole "I can simply adjust my team to break whatever coverage I lack" going for it as well as an extremely workable speed. Isolating out this metagame that we have right now, one of the main reason why Typh is a lot stronger is because a lot of it's checks are now even more passive than before. A lot of things like Kabu, Omas, Altaria (LOL), Feral are no longer accessible to us compared to XY. This means that due to their passive nature, they cannot sufficiently threaten Typh enough if it is well supported. Blaze and Flash Fire are both stellar abilities (even though Flash Fire is the better one as it gives Typh an immunity, we shouldn't sleep on Blaze as it is still a good option for scarf users who naturally lack the power that Specs users have) with Flash Fire being used about 80% of the time according to stats. Typh is one of those mons that have the speed and power to wear down it's checks multiple times by purely it's STAB and it's coverage option forces you to pack multiple varying checks.

Just quoting your reply as a response because I don't think that just because it is "easy to play around", it would warrant a no-ban. However when you think as to why it is "easy to play around", it is simply because you end up subconsciously placing a large amount of said checks and counters on your team because they would do well in the meta. Why is that so? Because they deal with the big threats of the tier which include Typh and Rupt. Are the said checks and counters considered blanket checks where they would do well in the meta even without Typh and Rupt? If your answer is no, then we got a problem on our hands. AV Muk isn't the most optimal answer considering that even after you sneak a typh once it is still able to dent your Muk without recovery. Also, Lilligant as an argument to disprove of their ban-worthiness is hilarious considering there's no real way for you to use Typh (Rupt maybe but you can't switch in) as set up bait/fodder.
 

QueenOfLuvdiscs

Tier 3 Audino sub
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Everyone is screaming that the Specs set on Typh is broken, unstoppable, un-switch-in-to-able. If this was the case, why would anyone run the lure set? Oh wait. It's because you CAN and WILL be able to switch into the specs set, so people are trying to find a way to beat the things that....idk....BEAT Typh already. Just saying.



Also:

252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Sawk Close Combat vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mesprit: 150-177 (46.2 - 54.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

OMG ban Sawk, it doesn't even have to predict and click Knock Off (what even is perfect fighting/dark coverage?), it just kills stuff whenever it's convenient Orphic.

And by ya'll's flawed logic it will ALWAYS 100% of the time have it's Sturdy intact, so it has a better offensive ability too!

AND it can run Scarf and sweep late game like Typh with it's super spammable STAB that can actually be supported with pursuit.


It can even run a Fist Plate set to lure in and beat its counters! Oh wow! Amazing! Such wow!
Also, whenever it's convenient for you to try to prove it's broken, it can also be both Sturdy and Mold Breaker. We run both abilities on the same Sawk!

Unlike your opponent, who will have no control over hazards, teambuilding, or their ability to make predictions!



Ban Socks

(For those of you that are a little slow, I used Sawk as an analog of Typhlosion. Like if you get it. xD)
That whole post was aids. Literal aids.

You can't compare them bcuz, unlike Typh, Sawk's checks actually have recovery and Sawk is easier to revenge due to it's lower base speed. If you're that opposed to banning Typh, just vote no ban and leave it there lol
 

Punchshroom

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Everyone is screaming that the Specs set on Typh is broken, unstoppable, un-switch-in-to-able. If this was the case, why would anyone run the lure set? Oh wait. It's because you CAN and WILL be able to switch into the specs set, so people are trying to find a way to beat the things that....idk....BEAT Typh already. Just saying.
I just want to point this out.

The PRIMARY reason the Charcoal set came to be is because of the looming threat of other Flash Fire Typhlosions getting a free nuke right back at Choice Typhlosion users (or other reasons, such as preventing hilarious stalemates between Choice FF Typhs that end up Fire moving each other); it didn't come about primarily as a way to beat its switch-ins (because it never really needed to go out of its way, aka dropping Specs for Charcoal, to do so). Since even the likes of Ninetales didn't manage to influence the viability of Choice Typhlosions prior to the release of Flash Fire Typh, this speaks volumes of Typhlosion's (increasingly suffocating) presence in the current metagame.

The fact that the Charcoal set could afford coverage moves that would otherwise not fit on the Choice sets (Wisp, EQ, Wild Charge) and just so happen to wreck a large majority of otherwise solid checks is a mere bonus, cementing the set's viability as a standalone threat while also giving the meta what is essentially another Fire threat to prepare for in addition to the slight chokehold the Choice Typhlosions already present, which is the last thing this meta needs. I only see Typh warping more of the meta around itself in the foreseeable future.

And lol no one's arguing that Typh is super broken since it has both Blaze and Flash Fire; people are implying it is more borked than it was previously now that the abilities only expand its potential, instead of curbing it like I had initially hoped. Are you gonna go all Cased with that 'Set of Champions' argument again?
 
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Disjunction

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As far as Typhlosion goes, yeah its strong, we get it. But having to prep for one type attack and not being 4x weak to a coverage move is without debate, simple. There is no way you can say Typhlosion restricts team building any more than another type. Fighting-types are strong so we run Poison-types, Grass-types can be threatening so we run Grass-, Fire-, and Flying types to check them. It's not restrictive to teambuilding, its just reinforcing the fundamentals of type synergies. If Typhlosion wasn't in the tier, you would still be running something to resist Fire-type attacks. Just like you need to account for CM Psychics, Flying-, Normal-, Fighting-, and Water-type attacks. With an abundance of Pokemon that resist Fire, and aren't necessarily 4x weak to a Hidden Power, Typhlosion just increases the need for a Fire-type check, it doesn't single handedly force you to have one, and by no means are there a lack of solid checks/counters or they'd sure as hell be unbalanced by now, and not just in NU.
I'd like to address this point. Outside of offensive teams, Typhlosion's checks are not as simple as you are making them out to be. Just running a Fire-type resist is hardly enough most of the time because of how easy it is to switch into most of its switch ins. Mantine is weak, passive, and can, at worst, threaten you with Toxic or a Scald burn, Hariyama is easy to switch into because of how prepared teams are for Fighting-types, Regirock and Rhydon are arguably more difficult to switch into because of their strong STABs, possible status, and the threat of Stealth Rock, so I'll just leave them be and say they gain a lot of momentum by switching into Typh (despite an issue with bulky Water-types.) All of this, and Typhlosion still has the tools to punish these very obvious switch in the first place; Hidden Power Electric for Mantine, Will-O-Wisp for Hariyama, Regirock, and Rhydon, and Focus Blast/Hidden Power Grass for Regirock/Rhydon.
Also, I still find it odd that on Smogon, it's common practice to assume your opponent has to switch in on rocks to take an attack, and yet in these calcs Typh is always at 100%. Acting like if you face a Typh, getting rocks up isn't your first priority. "Oh, that's too centralizing Steven, why should rocks be prioritized?". 1. It's the best move in the game. 2. Look at OU, face a Talon, you want rocks, it just helps to cripple it with correct pressure, forces defoggers to take damage etc etc. It's just part of the game, and if you play well you can keep them up.
Typhlosion is still fairly difficult to deal with even with Stealth Rock up. It has the ability to take advantage of every Fire-type switch in we have in the tier and the ability to gain an even more powerful nuke for its last two switch ins. Yes, you can say to "play well" to always have Rocks on the field, but there will always be a scenario where Rocks will NOT be on the field when you're against a Typhlosion and that's why you need to be prepared for that. The difference here is that Typhlosion is not automatically worthless just because you couldn't keep Stealth Rock off the field. Fire Blast still hurts, he still has his coverage options, and, if you are Flash Fire, you still hit hard and are hard to switch into.
 

YABO

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Alright so I nearly have reqs at this point and I finally feel like I have enough time and experience under my belt to make an informed opinion about the two suspects we have on our plate.

Typhlosion
Okay, to begin with, we have Typhlosion. As NU's defining Fire spam leader for a long time now, it has always maintained its position as a top threat in the tier. The recent addition of Flash Fire to this guy didn't really make him better versus many other things in NU but it changed the dynamic of how you handle it. By not only providing an immunity, but also a power boost to punish what was once a highly spammable Fire STAB Eruption, Typhlosion is now one of the best switch ins to Typhlosion. This change has and continues to force the meta to evolve with sets like Charcoal Typhlosion that have been seeing some play on the suspect. This set capitalizes on teams that rely on locking Typhlosion into one move in order to handle it (my team for suspect does this xd). In addition, Typhlosion is by no means a slouch with regards to its speed. Despite being outsped by common things like Scyther, Tauros, and Archeops, Typhlosion can easily switch out and come back in later in the game, regardless of its stealth rock weakness. Overall, Typhlosion's versatility, power, and speed, in combination with the new dynamic that came about from Flash Fire's release lend itself to voting ban in my eyes.

Camerupt
Camerupt on the other hand is a different story. When comparing these two suspects the things that jump out are the significant bulk increase, typing change, and pitiful speed. Other notable changes are a lack of an item and power differences depending on Typhlosion's item choice. Now I don't want to get baited into the argument that Camerupt is not broken compared to Typhlosion or any argument similar to that so I will try to do this logically. Camerupt, despite its very good bulk, finds trouble coming in. It's not the hardest thing to bring in but does not come in for free against most things due to its very mediocre defensive typing. For this reason, a single check to Camerupt (Hariyama, Samurott, Carracosta, Pelipper, etc) can often leave it so weakened by midgame that it has to be healing wished to do anything later on. In addition, water coverage is often desired on common pokemon in the tier, further limiting Camerupt's opportunities to fire off unhindered attacks. Pokemon like Archeops and Kangaskhan love being able to bait in Rhydon which conveniently leaves them with a way to handle Camerupt. 20 Base Speed is honestly such a letdown for Camerupt as it simply can't pull off any of the 2hkos that it should due to being outsped and KO'd or severely weakened. I'm not saying that Camerupt is not a threat, just that it is one that can be prepared for and is not broken. No Ban.
 

Blast

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For the record, it's a perfectly reasonable scenario that Typh is at full while its switchins have to take hazards. Especially in the case of Mantine and Prinplup and stuff, they're the ones actually doing the hazard removal, so you should be prepared for hazards to be up as they come in. Typh is a Rock-weak offensive Pokemon, so its teammates are generally gonna be more inclined towards actually keeping hazards off the field for it instead of the other way around. Besides it's not even like Typh needs to stay at full the entire game anyway lol--after a couple of Eruptions even Specs Fire Blast can break through bulky resists. It's not "magic."

I also really don't get the argument that even if Typh and Rupt leave Fire checks will still be "necessary." Of course there are other Fire-types in the tier and you still have to prepare for them, but Typh and Rupt are being suspected because their caliber of power is obviously much greater. Obviously you still have to carry Fire checks, but the Fire-types in question are much easier to take advantage of in actual battles.

Another thing I want to talk about that I think marilli brought up earlier is that the main thing with Typhlosion (and the reason I personally think it's worse than Camerupt, but to each their own ofc) is the fact that it's so much faster. Rupt relies on using its bulk and resistances to capitalize on shit like Rotom and non-CM Uxie, but at the very least they can Shadow Ball / Psychic or w/e and get some chip damage to make it easier to deal with later. That's not the case with Typh because its Speed allows it to actually get safe hits on a very large portion of the tier, as well as being faster than pretty much all its switchins, which puts much more pressure on them because they have to be prepared to take ~at least~ two hits. Yes there are obviously Pokemon that outspeed it and priority, but that's why you don't bring Typh in on those lol. You bring it in on Pokemon that it can safely OHKO without taking an attack beforehand (which for the record, there are a ton of and you all know that).

Was gonna say something more but I can't remember what it was so eh
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
For the record, it's a perfectly reasonable scenario that Typh is at full while its switchins have to take hazards. Especially in the case of Mantine and Prinplup and stuff, they're the ones actually doing the hazard removal, so you should be prepared for hazards to be up as they come in. Typh is a Rock-weak offensive Pokemon, so its teammates are generally gonna be more inclined towards actually keeping hazards off the field for it instead of the other way around. Besides it's not even like Typh needs to stay at full the entire game anyway lol--after a couple of Eruptions even Specs Fire Blast can break through bulky resists. It's not "magic."

I also really don't get the argument that even if Typh and Rupt leave Fire checks will still be "necessary." Of course there are other Fire-types in the tier and you still have to prepare for them, but Typh and Rupt are being suspected because their caliber of power is obviously much greater. Obviously you still have to carry Fire checks, but the Fire-types in question are much easier to take advantage of in actual battles.

Another thing I want to talk about that I think marilli brought up earlier is that the main thing with Typhlosion (and the reason I personally think it's worse than Camerupt, but to each their own ofc) is the fact that it's so much faster. Rupt relies on using its bulk and resistances to capitalize on shit like Rotom and non-CM Uxie, but at the very least they can Shadow Ball / Psychic or w/e and get some chip damage to make it easier to deal with later. That's not the case with Typh because its Speed allows it to actually get safe hits on a very large portion of the tier, as well as being faster than pretty much all its switchins, which puts much more pressure on them because they have to be prepared to take ~at least~ two hits. Yes there are obviously Pokemon that outspeed it and priority, but that's why you don't bring Typh in on those lol. You bring it in on Pokemon that it can safely OHKO without taking an attack beforehand (which for the record, there are a ton of and you all know that).

Was gonna say something more but I can't remember what it was so eh
But that's team support that typh NEEDS, so it's not OP in that regard. Heck if I control the hazards game where is my shedinja? All these calcs assume way too much. The only reason typh is dangerous is bc of wild charge and it has 100 base speed. Camerupt, honestly, isnt threatening at all. If I cared enough to get reqs, I would vote NO BAN ON BOTH

Edit:
Once raseri finally bans prinplup then these two will still not be broken. Hariyama is amazing in the tier, not just because of these, and it destroys typh. Unless you click esensory, but i still win
 
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Ares

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But that's team support that typh NEEDS, so it's not OP in that regard. Heck if I control the hazards game where is my shedinja? All these calcs assume way too much. The only reason typh is dangerous is bc of wild charge and it has 100 base speed. Camerupt, honestly, isnt threatening at all. If I cared enough to get reqs, I would vote NO BAN ON BOTH

Edit:
Once raseri finally bans prinplup then these two will still not be broken. Hariyama is amazing in the tier, not just because of these, and it destroys typh. Unless you click esensory, but i still win
The thing is that hazard support is so easy to put on a team in this meta that it is pretty much minimal support. Xatu is almost good enough to keep hazards off of the field by itself, while there are multiple defoggers that can easily defog and spinners that can beat spin blockers. If the meta wasn't so centralized around hazard control Typhlosion would probably be kept in check a lot easier.
 

zbr

less than 99% acc = never hit
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is this real
bruh this man alr said "If I cared enough to get reqs". he aint real enough to care.
But that's team support that typh NEEDS, so it's not OP in that regard. Heck if I control the hazards game where is my shedinja? All these calcs assume way too much. The only reason typh is dangerous is bc of wild charge and it has 100 base speed. Camerupt, honestly, isnt threatening at all. If I cared enough to get reqs, I would vote NO BAN ON BOTH

Edit:
Once raseri finally bans prinplup then these two will still not be broken. Hariyama is amazing in the tier, not just because of these, and it destroys typh. Unless you click esensory, but i still win
I'll be fair, if we weren't in the suspect stage and everyone was running standard stuff, not shit like SpD Toad (correct me if im wrong), Typh usually never cares about hazard. esp on teams that run a combination of fire check/counter + typh (which isn't very uncommon), being able to spam either eruption (specs/coal) or potentially blaze (despite flash fire being more common, blaze is still the better ability imo) boosted fire blasts (esp during late gate) is a very deadly option. people are opting to run nfe dragons like zweilous/vibrava and whatnot is due to their primary ability to check threats like these and less so of their ballbreaking strength on teams (CB hustle zweilous is retardedly powerful but blinder than my tauros and that says a lot) typh is a hella big threat atm and being able to wear down it's checks as well as having a great speed tier makes it a crazy big threat. not becaues it has wild charge ,,,
 
Ok, going to chip in here now that I got reqs. My points here will be fairly general and simplistic since I don't have a lot of time, so take them as you will.

Camerupt -- It's not all it's cracked up to be. Against offensive teams, it has a lot of trouble switching in, as it generally needs to take two hits. You end up needing to baby it until late-game to keep it at high health, and even that doesn't work if the opponent can keep a bulky water-type alive.

Against defensive teams, there are more checks than people are implying. I ran a defensive team to get reqs, and had almost no trouble with it. My check was:

Zweilous @ Eviolite
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Outrage
- Crunch

Honestly, I'm surprised at how little Zweilous has been mentioned in this thread. It can switch in to anything Camerupt has (takes 39 - 46.5% from Earth Power). It can then rest off the damage if necessary, and hit Camerupt very hard with Sleep Talk --> Crunch/Outrage. On fairly rare occasions, the Camerupt wins overall (if it predicts and uses Earth Power on the switch), but Zweilous will almost always get a hit or two off, and a weakened Camerupt is almost as good as dead. Overall, I'll be voting No ban for Camerupt.

Typhlosion -- I didn't see as many of these on the ladder, so I'll be more vague. Zweilous also works pretty well here (except if Typhlosion predicts and uses Focus Blast, which still only does 40.2 - 47.7% with Scarf -- after which it's easy to switch to a Fighting resist). Typhlosion also has a Stealth Rock weakness, which prevents it from switching too much and nerfs Eruption. I'll also be voting No ban for Typhlosion.

In suspect tests, I generally place the burden of proof on the "ban it" side of the argument, because once something is banned, it's very difficult to get back. Based on what I've seen on the ladder and this discussion, that burden of proof hasn't been met for either suspect.
 

Deej Dy

Verified Ladder Scurb 乁( ◔ ౪◔)ㄏ
Ok, going to chip in here now that I got reqs. My points here will be fairly general and simplistic since I don't have a lot of time, so take them as you will.

Camerupt -- It's not all it's cracked up to be. Against offensive teams, it has a lot of trouble switching in, as it generally needs to take two hits. You end up needing to baby it until late-game to keep it at high health, and even that doesn't work if the opponent can keep a bulky water-type alive.

Against defensive teams, there are more checks than people are implying. I ran a defensive team to get reqs, and had almost no trouble with it. My check was:

Zweilous @ Eviolite
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Outrage
- Crunch

Honestly, I'm surprised at how little Zweilous has been mentioned in this thread. It can switch in to anything Camerupt has (takes 39 - 46.5% from Earth Power). It can then rest off the damage if necessary, and hit Camerupt very hard with Sleep Talk --> Crunch/Outrage. On fairly rare occasions, the Camerupt wins overall (if it predicts and uses Earth Power on the switch), but Zweilous will almost always get a hit or two off, and a weakened Camerupt is almost as good as dead. Overall, I'll be voting No ban for Camerupt.

Typhlosion -- I didn't see as many of these on the ladder, so I'll be more vague. Zweilous also works pretty well here (except if Typhlosion predicts and uses Focus Blast, which still only does 40.2 - 47.7% with Scarf -- after which it's easy to switch to a Fighting resist). Typhlosion also has a Stealth Rock weakness, which prevents it from switching too much and nerfs Eruption. I'll also be voting No ban for Typhlosion.

In suspect tests, I generally place the burden of proof on the "ban it" side of the argument, because once something is banned, it's very difficult to get back. Based on what I've seen on the ladder and this discussion, that burden of proof hasn't been met for either suspect.
So the trend of posting of sub par counters continues... Vibrava, Lunatone, Pignite, and now max Spc Def Zwelious?
You can create a tiny niche counter for everything.. in suspects we should look at the suspect's impact as the metagame as a whole.
"Graveler walls Talonflame, so it not broken in NU" '_'
 

Empress

33% coffee / 33% alcohol / 34% estrogen
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I guess I gotta give my thoughts about the suspects now; I'll try not to keep it too long b/c much of what I'm thinking has probably already been said. I'm also kinda tired so I cannot possibly be able to put 100% effort into this post.

Mega Camerupt: Yeah, this thing has basically zero switch-ins. AV Hariyama and the few Water-types are not nearly enough checks to keep Mega Rupt from dominating the vast majority of the tier. What also contributes to Mega Rupt's dominance is its nonexistant opportunity cost. Stall teams would of course rather run Mega Audino, but Rupt is incredibly splashable on offensive and balanced teams alike with little to no competition from Mega Dino on said teams. Combine how easy it is to fit on a team with its blanket dominance of almost all of NU, and it's a bit too much for us to handle. Ban this thing.

Typhlosion: Another mon with extremely few switch-ins here in NU. It's so freaking easy to keep entry hazards off the field in this tier that Typh needs minimal support to enter the battlefield and nuke entire teams with Eruption. Its Scarf set also has gained a lot of ground lately, meaning Typh can either destroy HO or BO depending on what your team needs. I'd rather not play a metagame where I have to run AV Hariyama or a specially defensive Water-type in order to avoid getting effortlessly 6-0'd. Typhlosion is definitely overpowered and very overcentralizing to the metagame, so it's a pretty easy ban vote here.
 

zbr

less than 99% acc = never hit
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Ok, going to chip in here now that I got reqs. My points here will be fairly general and simplistic since I don't have a lot of time, so take them as you will.

Camerupt -- It's not all it's cracked up to be. Against offensive teams, it has a lot of trouble switching in, as it generally needs to take two hits. You end up needing to baby it until late-game to keep it at high health, and even that doesn't work if the opponent can keep a bulky water-type alive.

Against defensive teams, there are more checks than people are implying. I ran a defensive team to get reqs, and had almost no trouble with it. My check was:

Zweilous @ Eviolite
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Outrage
- Crunch
This is the whole "I have no problems against the suspect, hence it shouldn't be banned." argument all over again. That shouldn't really be the approach when dealing with suspects. If you have to force yourself to slap on a SpDef NFE Dragon who's main role is to just to sponge these hits kinda shows how screwed up the metagame is right now with these threats. By your logic, we should actually be taking a heavy consideration to ban it.
Honestly, I'm surprised at how little Zweilous has been mentioned in this thread. It can switch in to anything Camerupt has (takes 39 - 46.5% from Earth Power). It can then rest off the damage if necessary, and hit Camerupt very hard with Sleep Talk --> Crunch/Outrage. On fairly rare occasions, the Camerupt wins overall (if it predicts and uses Earth Power on the switch), but Zweilous will almost always get a hit or two off, and a weakened Camerupt is almost as good as dead. Overall, I'll be voting No ban for Camerupt.
tbf, there's very little reason for rupt to stay in on zwei unless it has wow considering that the more common sets are banded sets and they tear m-rupt a new hole so this argument here means that zwei will only be constantly switching in on m-rupt. since your only strong form of recovery is by rest talk, this can easily be taken advantage of when there are so many fighting spammers in the metagame as well as your heavy reliance on not only keeping zwei at above 75% but also to keep your evio on. my opinion on this is that it isn't the best switch in for Rupt as it can easily be taken advantage of.
Typhlosion -- I didn't see as many of these on the ladder, so I'll be more vague. Zweilous also works pretty well here (except if Typhlosion predicts and uses Focus Blast, which still only does 40.2 - 47.7% with Scarf -- after which it's easy to switch to a Fighting resist). Typhlosion also has a Stealth Rock weakness, which prevents it from switching too much and nerfs Eruption. I'll also be voting No ban for Typhlosion.
scarf is generally shunned upon right now and even then it's already an above 50% chance to 2hko with rocks up on your side. typh's stealth rock weakness is less so a weakness when you factor in the fact that it gets blaze and that scarf typh's main role is to revenge.
In suspect tests, I generally place the burden of proof on the "ban it" side of the argument, because once something is banned, it's very difficult to get back. Based on what I've seen on the ladder and this discussion, that burden of proof hasn't been met for either suspect.
again, to be fair, when your argument against banning it is so shabby it is more so a reinforcement to the idea typh/rupt's checks and counters are far and few and the fact that they have no reliable form of recovery makes them easier to wear down, which allows the suspect to easily pressure various team types.
 
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Deej Dy

Verified Ladder Scurb 乁( ◔ ౪◔)ㄏ
Except spdef zwei is a good mon
It was good in BW2 with hazard stack and phazing (Roar+D-tail). Now it pretty much walls Lilligant, Ninetales, Typh, and Camel with inaccurate moves and rest recovery. Are you going to provide reason for why you think it is good? It is below .25% usage and C rank for a reason (and that was for the band set).
It doesn't deserve to be unranked or anything...but c'mon it seems you are blindly siding with "no banners" at this point.
 

Kiyo

the cowboy kid
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It was good in BW2 with hazard stack and phazing (Roar+D-tail). Now it pretty much walls Lilligant, Ninetales, Typh, and Camel with inaccurate moves and rest recovery. Are you going to provide reason for why you think it is good? It is below .25% usage and C rank for a reason (and that was for the band set).
It doesn't deserve to be unranked or anything...but c'mon it seems you are blindly siding with "no banners" at this point.
Specially Defensive Zweilous is really good, lol. The fact that it does extremely well vs Fire-, Water-, Grass-, and Psychic-types is huge in this metagame. It has a really nice niche on stall, and I've seen othera have it fit on balance very well. The thing just chews most special attacks and doesn't die, thats its primary purpose, the fact that it can phaze is just a nice bonus. (also Crunch hits really hard uninvested)

I also don't think you should be negative towards people trying to find new ways to deal with the suspects, this is the kind of thing that leads to really centralized metagames. I'm extremely happy to see people using different Pokemon, its the main reason a lot of people play this tier. I mean shit I used a Frillish in NUPL this week and its far from a "sub par" pokemon, its just extremely overlooked. Metagames change and people adapt to threats, if Vibrava and Zweilous are solid answers to arguably the two biggest metagame threats, why shouldn't they be used? I'd rather see a metagame where Camerupt and Typhlosion have to run HP Ice to get past Vibrava, than a metagame where every team has Hariyama, Seismitoad, and Typhlosion and every single game plays the same way.

tl;dr Don't hate, innovate.
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
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For the record, SpD Zweilous is by no means a bad set as Kiyo stated, but it can be somewhat shaky as a MegaRupt check since Sleep Talk combined with Hustle misses has the very real tendency to trip Zweilous up, while Zweilous being 3HKOed in the meantime puts it on a crucial timer.

Camerupt -- It's not all it's cracked up to be. Against offensive teams, it has a lot of trouble switching in, as it generally needs to take two hits. You end up needing to baby it until late-game to keep it at high health, and even that doesn't work if the opponent can keep a bulky water-type alive.
Even against offensive teams MegaRupt can easily find opportunities to put in work, especially the bulky RestTalk variant. It can switch into mons such as Rotom, Mawile, Klinklang, Liepard, Lilligant, Magmortar (without EQ), even Typhlosion (albeit a tad shaky due to Sleep Talking screwing up against Flash Fire Typh), and can most certainly check even more such as Mesprit, Mismagius, Sneasel, Scyther, etc. And what's to say of bulkier mons / pivots such as Garbodor, non-CM Uxie, Gourgeist, Weezing, Ferroseed, etc. that are helpless against any MegaRupt variant?

MegaRupt's tankiness means it often has a good shot to fire off insane damage against your team since it can usually take advantage of at least one of your Pokemon. The problem is that the amount of Pokemon MegaRupt tanks and the number of Pokemon that tank MegaRupt in turn are highly disproportionate; this means you are inclined to use the same ol' MegaRupt responses on most of your team structures.

Arguments that "MegaRupt can't 2HKO most bulky Waters as it gets forced out after the first hit, so bulky Waters check it" also need to apply to MegaRupt itself, and the fact of the matter is that MegaRupt switches into its targets much more easily (usually not 2HKOed) than most bulky Waters can switch into it, meaning few bulky Waters will outlast MegaRupt. Indeed, this does apply less to offensive teams as they usually have less mons that don't 2/3HKO MegaRupt, but MegaRupt blanket checks so much anyway you either have to steer clear of using certain mons outright, force them to squeeze in coverage for Rupt, or suck it up and use like 1 out of 3 hard checks (yes I said checks, because MegaRupt's ease at teching moveslots means it has no true hard counters). Not to mention if you focus purely on checking MegaRupt instead of countering it, lord help you against one in Trick Room.
 
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