Probopass still destroys the choiced sets. He also takes out fletch with ease. And air balloon on probopass is a legitimate option. Also, if you know your opponent is going to volt switch out, you can volt switch to.
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- Thread starter Raseri
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Earlier on in this post I put forward my idea that Probopass was good against Magneton. Now I know that it can just Volt Switch out which will pop any Air Balloon the Probo might be carrying, and the following time Probo will just get bopped by the HP Ground which is arguably the main HP Magneton should be running. Even Max investments in HP and SpD (not the best spread) result in the aforemented combo having a minimum 98.7% chance to kill Probopass before any sorts of prior damage
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Probopass: 96-114 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 14.6% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Probopass: 224-264 (69.1 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Probopass: 96-114 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 14.6% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Probopass: 224-264 (69.1 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I have a question. Is it possible to ban single abilities but keep the mon in the tier? Looking through the tiering info thread, I get the impression that Feraligatr only became really problematic after Sheer Force was introduced for it. With Magneton, other than it being pretty strong in general, it seems like the Analytic ability is the most problematic for people to handle, while the other two are rather niche in comparison. Unfortunately, I don't know how to simulate it going second in the damage calculator, otherwise I would provide calcs to support my claim.
Even if banning Analytic wouldn't solve the Magneton issue at hand, why hasn't this approach been taken when Sheer Force became so problematic with Gatr?
Also, looking at the Magneton suspect discussion thread, it's pretty obvious it's going to leave the tier pretty soon. Which mons do you guys think will rise in usage as a result? Personally, I am currently working on a Lilligant/Klingklang team because I think both will become insanely good once magnets are gone.
Even if banning Analytic wouldn't solve the Magneton issue at hand, why hasn't this approach been taken when Sheer Force became so problematic with Gatr?
Also, looking at the Magneton suspect discussion thread, it's pretty obvious it's going to leave the tier pretty soon. Which mons do you guys think will rise in usage as a result? Personally, I am currently working on a Lilligant/Klingklang team because I think both will become insanely good once magnets are gone.
Simply put, we like to avoid complex bans.
Analytic and Sheer Force don't make any other Pokemon broken in NU. It's just Magneton and Feraligatr.
Thus, it's the Pokemon themselves that are the problem, not the abilities.
Timid scarf can even outspeed Swellow, the fastest unboosted mon in the tier. Magneton also doesn't fear the majority of commonly scarfed pokemon outside of Sawk and the very rare Pyroar/Magmortar. It gets free momentum for your team, still gets the analytic boost on the switch, and can hit most switch-ins with either flash cannon or hp ground.
I'm not convinced magneton is ban-worthy. EQ is very common coverage, and Magneton doesn't have the speed tier to stay in for long without getting revenge killed. Sure it can pressure a lot of mons and is hard to wall/switch in to, but so are a lot of other pokemon such as Sawk, Exeggutor, Magmortar, etc. The only thing that makes this mon even somewhat ban-able to me is its STAB volt-switch and access to a strong scarf set, although Scyther has these EXACT same options, just without the stealth rock weakness.
It would be a mistake to compare it to Heliolisk who had the speed tier, coverage, and power that made it such a threat, while Magneton has to CHOOSE between speed and power while possessing (debatably) worse coverage.
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If this were applicable to Gatr, it would be applicable to any mon in any tier, examples include Azumarill, Espeon, Talonflame, Diggersby, Blaziken, Greninja, Tyranitar, Hippowdon, Excadrill, Alomomola, Dugtrio, Jolteon, etc... I can bring up enough examples to fit the entire damn page, and that would be far too many complex bans to feasibly keep track of, especially for beginner players, plus the whole concept of tiers would be skewed as a result.
While Heliolisk and Magneton are not directly comparable, it is easy to draw parallels to each other: both gave the tier trouble due to the power of their Volt Switches, and how difficult they are to block. The powerful Volt Switch wore down switch-ins much faster than they can attempt to heal off the damage (Ferroseed being a great example here), while their access to powerful attacks to smack most Volt Switch absorbers meant that players are restricted in their available responses. The fact that feasible counters to Magneton (Lanturn, Stunfisk, Torterra, Quagsire) exist meant that Magneton is less broken than Heliolisk, but it has its own problematic qualities, mainly its sheer power and good defensive typing which grants it a good amount of switch-in opportunities, plus its stat distribution give it the ability to threaten any playstyle with the respective item (Scarf for offense, Specs for balance / stall, Eviolite is arguably an all-rounder tho it fares its best against balance), making it a significant universal threat all teams should prepare for, and when you account for the limited counters to Magneton in the tier, well.... (also Magnet Rise can fuk with some people, most notably beating Stunfisk 1v1)
Even if Magneton isn't outright broken, there is no denying it restricts the diversity of the metagame. Most teams need a Magneton response to avoid getting punched open by one of its various sets, and its main hard counters are all susceptible to Grass-types. Of course, pairing a Grass-type alongside Magneton opens up the team to Fire-types, which means responses to Fire-types need to be run, and don't forget you need to be prepared for Magneton as well... Already this seems pretty formulaic, even the likes of Archeops didn't manage to limit diversity to this extent (you can pair Ground-types or Fighting-types alongside Archeops). Of course, the alternative to defending against Magneton would be to pack a Ground-type + a mon that resists Magneton's remaining attacks (which isn't even foolproof since Magneton is not guaranteed to be Choiced), but when the solution against a threat in the tier is to either check it with two mons or pack one out of a limited number of reliable responses which all happen to be susceptible to a singular type, this makes teambuilding for the defending player rather tricky, and on the other hand remarkably streamlines teambuilding for the Magneton user. This is not a good indication of meta stability / diversity and is a prime example of overcentralisation, and Magneton needs to leave the tier as soon as possible for the benefit of the meta.
Agree with Teddeh completely
Smash passing into xatu is pretty insane, and if were gonna talk about magneton being bad for the tier, smash pass needs to be up there too
I don't understand why stuff like this is always shuffled to the back of the line, when its not like smash-pass has disappeared or anything, its still as broken as ever
It doesn't make for a healthy meta when you could punch your keyboard a few times and win the game, cause thats how smash pass feels
It takes no skill, its a brainless tactic, and even if you carry taunt/haze, most smash passers beat you anyway
Smash passing into xatu is pretty insane, and if were gonna talk about magneton being bad for the tier, smash pass needs to be up there too
I don't understand why stuff like this is always shuffled to the back of the line, when its not like smash-pass has disappeared or anything, its still as broken as ever
It doesn't make for a healthy meta when you could punch your keyboard a few times and win the game, cause thats how smash pass feels
It takes no skill, its a brainless tactic, and even if you carry taunt/haze, most smash passers beat you anyway
While I haven't encountered it much yet and probably could have played way better the times I did, I too have felt the power of Smashpass (read: got 6-0d a couple of times by it.)
Unlike with Magneton though, I don't think I've met a single person who tried arguing against banning it. The argument against Magneton has basically been that it requires balanced teams to run one of Lanturn, Stunfisk or Torterra (why doesn't Quagsire work btw?) and that teambuilding is way too restricted as a result. How can you prepare for smashpass? I thought about this a little, and I wanted to present my conclusions because I wanted to know if they make any sense.
So basically, you can't really specifically prepare for the recipient of the smashpass, because there's plenty, so you need to handle Gorebyss or Huntail before they pass. There's two ways of doing that: killing it before it can pass, basically by OHKOing it or weakening it and then killing it with priority, or Taunt it, and then kill it before it can set up. While this doesn't seem to bad on paper, I looked through a couple of the teams I built and some from the Teambuilding Lab and NUPL, and not a lot of them would be able to fulfil these requirements. And the thing is, while probably not everyone straight up gets 6-0'd from the pass like me, it definitly is going to punch big holes in your team and put you in a very tough position.
Luckily, SmashPass isn't as common on ladder, and if it were, I think it would have been suspected long ago. I can't comment on whether it should be banned or not, but to me, this particular playstyle doesn't seem to represent what I think pokemon should be about: outwitting your opponent. SmashPass just leaves too little room for counter play to do that reliably, I think.
Unlike with Magneton though, I don't think I've met a single person who tried arguing against banning it. The argument against Magneton has basically been that it requires balanced teams to run one of Lanturn, Stunfisk or Torterra (why doesn't Quagsire work btw?) and that teambuilding is way too restricted as a result. How can you prepare for smashpass? I thought about this a little, and I wanted to present my conclusions because I wanted to know if they make any sense.
So basically, you can't really specifically prepare for the recipient of the smashpass, because there's plenty, so you need to handle Gorebyss or Huntail before they pass. There's two ways of doing that: killing it before it can pass, basically by OHKOing it or weakening it and then killing it with priority, or Taunt it, and then kill it before it can set up. While this doesn't seem to bad on paper, I looked through a couple of the teams I built and some from the Teambuilding Lab and NUPL, and not a lot of them would be able to fulfil these requirements. And the thing is, while probably not everyone straight up gets 6-0'd from the pass like me, it definitly is going to punch big holes in your team and put you in a very tough position.
Luckily, SmashPass isn't as common on ladder, and if it were, I think it would have been suspected long ago. I can't comment on whether it should be banned or not, but to me, this particular playstyle doesn't seem to represent what I think pokemon should be about: outwitting your opponent. SmashPass just leaves too little room for counter play to do that reliably, I think.
Smash Pass has been in the tier for a while now. Why didn't you say this during the Mega Steelix, Heliolisk, Mega Camerupt, or Typhlosion suspect?
Would you just go anti-ban or complain about their suspect because you think something else should be prioritized? No. You give your opinion on the pokemon suspected and then worry about what comes next.
I'm all in favor of a future SmashPass ban or suspect of some sort, but the line of logic that "I oppose a suspect because I think something else should have been suspected in the first place" is something I would try to avoid.
The thing that puts SmashPass over the edge for me is Uxie. Uxie is so bulky, and actually fast (base 95 speed isn't a slouch) and has access to dual screens AND memento. Screens is one thing, but memento basically means you not only get the momentum, but whatever the opponent goes to deal with gorebyss / huntail is essentially as 1/4 powerful as it was before.
A common scenario I have experienced is that not enough pokemon that can deal with uxie can deal with huntail / gorebyss so it just results in the SmashPass er getting free smashes into anyone of the 3 or 4 threats (in a SmashPass team)
Heres what happens to me; I commonly run a banded sneasel as I do know a lot of people and when uxie comes in on a common SmashPass team I immediately switch into it, as to pressure it and hopefully kill it before its gets the holy trio of support moves off. Often, this ends with me failing (bar a crit), and I face calcs like this:
-2 252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Huntail through Reflect: 30-36 (9.5 - 11.4%) -- possible 9HKO
-2 252+ SpA Magmortar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Huntail through Light Screen: 67-79 (21.3 - 25.1%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
-2 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Huntail through Reflect: 49-59 (15.6 - 18.7%) -- possible 6HKO
Its not even worth staying in at this point, so in order to deal with SmashPass teams, you have to individually deal with ALL 3 of the threats individually with +2 Atk, +2 Sp.A and +2 Spe and its often the case you cant, because with any Mon given a free rock polish, nasty plot and swords dance all in one, you essentially save 3 turns of hassle and can baton pass it TO ANY THREAT IN THE TIER. if its not Xatu, its Magneton, if not Magneton, then Kanga, equally viable recipients are Magmortar, Samurott, Mesprit and the list goes on and on. Its impossible to prepare for SmashPass unless you run Haze on at least one mon. Earlier I saw a couple games of a mantine with haze against SmashPass, simply, the gorebyss bopped it with hp electric before it got that chance. Baton Passed into Kangaskhan, swept the rest of that team.
Now any play style that has the capabilities of destroying its "counters" is surely broken. With Uxie in the tier, the smashing isn't the problem, its the threats that are. If you cant deal with all them, you lose, g_g.
Its not even like SmashPass needs Uxie lol.
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Huntail: 199-234 (63.3 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- S Rank Threat.
+2 252 Atk Sneasel Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Huntail: 163-193 (51.9 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO-- Also S Rank Threat. Banded doesn't even 3HKO after item gets knocked.
I suggest that the combination of Shell Smash + Baton Pass is banned just like in Gen 5, which was the best way to go about business. And we quick ban it, suspect testing would take too long and quite frankly we all know the result anyway.
Its so stupidly broken and so easy to support, even the common ways of dealing with it sometimes just lose.
tl;dr SmashPass is broken, ban it asap.
A common scenario I have experienced is that not enough pokemon that can deal with uxie can deal with huntail / gorebyss so it just results in the SmashPass er getting free smashes into anyone of the 3 or 4 threats (in a SmashPass team)
Heres what happens to me; I commonly run a banded sneasel as I do know a lot of people and when uxie comes in on a common SmashPass team I immediately switch into it, as to pressure it and hopefully kill it before its gets the holy trio of support moves off. Often, this ends with me failing (bar a crit), and I face calcs like this:
-2 252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Huntail through Reflect: 30-36 (9.5 - 11.4%) -- possible 9HKO
-2 252+ SpA Magmortar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Huntail through Light Screen: 67-79 (21.3 - 25.1%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
-2 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Huntail through Reflect: 49-59 (15.6 - 18.7%) -- possible 6HKO
Its not even worth staying in at this point, so in order to deal with SmashPass teams, you have to individually deal with ALL 3 of the threats individually with +2 Atk, +2 Sp.A and +2 Spe and its often the case you cant, because with any Mon given a free rock polish, nasty plot and swords dance all in one, you essentially save 3 turns of hassle and can baton pass it TO ANY THREAT IN THE TIER. if its not Xatu, its Magneton, if not Magneton, then Kanga, equally viable recipients are Magmortar, Samurott, Mesprit and the list goes on and on. Its impossible to prepare for SmashPass unless you run Haze on at least one mon. Earlier I saw a couple games of a mantine with haze against SmashPass, simply, the gorebyss bopped it with hp electric before it got that chance. Baton Passed into Kangaskhan, swept the rest of that team.
Now any play style that has the capabilities of destroying its "counters" is surely broken. With Uxie in the tier, the smashing isn't the problem, its the threats that are. If you cant deal with all them, you lose, g_g.
Its not even like SmashPass needs Uxie lol.
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Huntail: 199-234 (63.3 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- S Rank Threat.
+2 252 Atk Sneasel Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Huntail: 163-193 (51.9 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO-- Also S Rank Threat. Banded doesn't even 3HKO after item gets knocked.
I suggest that the combination of Shell Smash + Baton Pass is banned just like in Gen 5, which was the best way to go about business. And we quick ban it, suspect testing would take too long and quite frankly we all know the result anyway.
Its so stupidly broken and so easy to support, even the common ways of dealing with it sometimes just lose.
tl;dr SmashPass is broken, ban it asap.
I support a Shell Smash + BP quick ban. We all know it's broken, and this has made it taboo to use it in a way. This means we often don't see it, but when we do see it, it can be devastating. Often the only way I can hope to beat SmashPass is by Thunder Waving Gorebyss and hoping for a few timely full paralysis. Which, needless to say, doesn't always work out. Having to rely on hax to beat something like this shouldn't. We already know the cancer exists and where it is, so let's cut it out without having to re-inspect it.
Deej Dy
Verified Ladder Scurb 乁( ◔ ౪◔)ㄏ
Banning smashpass has been posted about consistently ever seen XY, I remember posting about it both in November and January and getting ~30 likes for each post so you know it's popular opinion. It is just nothing has ever come of complaining about it so talks about banning it die down and eventually resurface a couple months later. I'm not in favor of a suspect, I've (and I believe the community has) suffered through it enough, I'd be much more inclined for a quickban. The question is when/if will action be taken against it.
Been trying to find some decent Magneton 'counters' now for a while and I wonder what everyone's opinion on Marshtomp would be. Eviolite Marshtomp with 252 HP / 152 Def / 104 SpD renders all non HP Grass sets unable to even 4HKO with its standard spammed moves. Downsides are that because it's Eviolite it hates Knock-Off and it has no reliable recovery to heal itself with, which allows it to be worn down easy. It also has an unfavourable base 50 Speed. It can run a variety of coverage moves that come of a decent base 85 Attack and it could have some utility in Stealth Rock, Yawn, Toxic and Scald. Haven't run much calcs to see how it goes against the S/A+/A pokemon and that sort of worries me but that's what learning is for so I'm keen for feedback.
NU, you guys are awesome. No other tier to be in!!
NU, you guys are awesome. No other tier to be in!!
I don't think it's as outclassed as it seems.
Look at it this way: Gastrodon does almost everything better than Seismitoad in RU and has Recover, yet Seismitoad is still used, simply because it has Stealth Rock. I guess rocks are just that good.
I am not going to dispute the viability of RU mons in an NU thread, but based on viability rankings, Seismitoad is actually better than Gastrodon. Recover and slightly better special bulk is the only thing Gastrodon has over Toad, which has better offensive presence, more psychical bulk, kinda decent recovery in Water Absorb, can run a solid Swift Swim set, and better speed to name a few.
Plus Gastro vs. Toad isn't really the same as Quag vs. Marshtomp, since Marshtomp, even without Quagsire would probably be mediocre because of its reliance of its Eviolite, little support moves outside of Stealth Rock, and near useless abilities.
Plus Gastro vs. Toad isn't really the same as Quag vs. Marshtomp, since Marshtomp, even without Quagsire would probably be mediocre because of its reliance of its Eviolite, little support moves outside of Stealth Rock, and near useless abilities.
I wouldn't make such a rash comparison. What makes Seismitoad stand out is its utility due to its wide range of support moves and not having a lackluster speed stat. Instead of arguing that SR makes Seismitoad great, I would argue that Seismitoad is what makes its SR great, as its typing and movepool wield it to be a great lead / rock setter. Having access to moves such as Knock Off, Sludge Bomb, Grass Knot, Endeavor, etc. It makes for a powerful rain dance sweeper, offensive and defensive SR setter, and a generally good pivot.
Not to mention its ability to be the only bulky water in RU that wasn't fodder for Mega Abomasnow in the meta to which it rose, but that's besides the point.
Seismitoad is finally being recognised like it deserves to be,
Relating this to NU, I do think that if we had seismitoad, magneton would be much less broken, as it would be p much forced to run HP grass, but it would certainly be suspect worthy and if not S+ Rank worthy
Jim E. Russler
zap7
I feel like Marshtomp's reliance on Eviolite and the reliability of Torrent vs. Quagsire's Unaware or even Water Absorb make the gap wider in this case than the one between Seismitoad and Gastrodon. I'd be a lot more comfortable pairing Quagsire with a rocks setter than using Marshtomp.
Also, Seismitoad has a handful of other things that Gastrodon doesn't alongside rocks (Knock Off, Swift Swim, an impressive amount of viable coverage options) whereas Quagsire and Marshtomp have a lot more overlap, with most of the utilities Farlz mentioned Marshtomp having being shared by Quagsire (Yawn, Scald, Toxic) and the two having basically the same options for offensive moves.
Quagsire also has a few other cool tricks to play around with like Encore and Haze that Marshtomp doesn't learn.
Wait what, pretty sure there are bulky Waters in RU could defend themselves just as well, if not better, from Mega Aboma (Jellicent, formerly Slowking, Qwilfish), so that was certainly not the reason Toad saw use. It's most likely just because of the same reasons NU finds Toad appealing: sufficient all-around bulk, excellent typing, good utility moves, important resists (in RU's case, Rock resist is chief amongst these).
A Pokemon with only average bulk, is reliant on Eviolite, and has zero means of recovery (even goddamn Palpitoad has the nifty Water Absorb) is already an incredibly subpar choice when compared to what NU, or even PU has to offer. Take into account that Marshtomp's utility is not even that unique in the first place (SR + Scald is done by Carracosta and even a fellow Magneton counter in Stunfisk, which even has Yawn to boot), and you realize you're digging far too deep into the barrel in search of Magneton counters. It is just far too obscure a pick for Magneton counters, much less in general, and when a mon finds itself out-competed even in an extremely limited category you should probably start looking elsewhere.
I believe we as tier leaders need not practice preventative medicine. We suspect and ban things when cancer exists, not ban things because it feels cancerous if it is let roaming free. No one ever brought smashpass even in NUPL or any other similar tournaments. We can't push for a ban when nobody is using it anywhere ;-;
It makes laddering for suspects, ladder tours, anything on the ladder related to this forum unbearable. People refused to bring it during NUPL because they would be shamed by the whole community mutually agreeing that it's a broken playstyle that is cookie cutter.
I don't see why we haven't banned it yet, NO ONE has argued for it to stay. We all mutually want it gone, so I don't see why it's been delayed so long.
Fuck smashpass.
marilli I have a strong disagreement with your wording in this post. You're implying that we suspect something we know is cancer to ban it. That's taking away the entire point of a suspect test. We Suspect test things that we suspect are broken, and then subsequently ban them should they be found by the community to be so.
In my opinion, we, as a community, have already voiced our beliefs over the monstrosity that is SmashPass. We have already shown that it is broken. A Suspect test to prove it's broken would be redundant at this point.
In my opinion, we, as a community, have already voiced our beliefs over the monstrosity that is SmashPass. We have already shown that it is broken. A Suspect test to prove it's broken would be redundant at this point.
if smashpass isn't broken then how do you explain this replay I have of my opponent letting me set up screens, shell smashing, and then baton passing for free and me proceeding to sweep his team that had no magneton switch ins in the first place?
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nususpecttest-237244002
please don't embarrass yourself like this anymore kiyo, I just feel bad for you, wow.
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