Metagame np: Stage 7 - Problem

[Rapture]

Cm psychics have gained a lot more presence on paper now that two that shall not be named have been banned. I'm also excited to see more ghost types being used in NU since they aren't as big of a liability to use anymore. Personally, I can see things like Misdreavus and Dritblim being a bit better post suspect meta.

 

[Disjunction]

ok, or ya know Musharna because it can Run CM Barrier with an actual item instead of Colbur and not have to worry about a Dark type being on every team. Every team.

Duosion has an immunity to status, access to Acid Armor, and a whopping 18 more base SpA. I'm not going to run a crusade for its viability over Musharna, because it's clearly not better, but it's relevant enough for me to want to try it out!

 

[shiloh]

Yeah I have to agree with Disjuntion here. I've been using Duosion even with Sneasel in the tier and it has been preforming pretty decently. While Musharna does work a lot more often, Duosion's immunity to status is actually amazing as it can just set up in the face of most stall mons lacking taunt. Also Recover>Moonlight is really helpful as you have much more longevity since you can spam recover a whole lot more while Musharna usually just runs out of Moonlights pretty quickly. It's true that most of the time Musharna is better, but Duosion definitely has a large enough niche to be decent.

replays

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-nu-69717
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-242067495 (I was dumb and didn't run psyshock)
In both of these replays if there had been a Musharna, it easily could have been whittled down with Toxic / Burn Damage, effectively making it lose in the end. I'll get some more once the ladder updates.

 

[Raseri]

I personally am looking forward to using items other than Colbur Berry on Dark weak Pokemon

 

[Empress]

I personally am looking forward to using items other than Colbur Berry on Dark weak Pokemon

Same. And I'm also looking forward to being able to use hyper offense again.

 

[kay]

I'm just looking forward to playing NU again. Not worrying about Sneasel and Gallade opens up every play style available to NU from HO to Stall. All of them have gotten so much better and enjoyable to play. I'm personally looking forward to playing this new meta

 

[Hootie]

Misdreavus (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Shadow Ball
- Pain Split

Ever since the idea of Sneasel being banned, a Pokemon that I've been theorizing about lately is Misdreavus. Hazard stack is always a cool play style and what intrigues me about Misdreavus is that it can spin block, taunt to prevent defog, and threaten Xatu with Shadow Ball, while having decent bulk on top of all of that. The better bulk when compared to Mismagius also lets more effectively stall break passive Pokemon such as Mega Audino with the combination of Taunt + Will-O-Wisp. Knock Off is obviously still as issue, but now that NU's premiere user of the move is gone, it has much more room to breathe. Pairing it along with Pawniard makes them quite the duo for hazard stacking teams as well.

Looking forward with other mons to toy around with in this new meta.

 

[CanadianWifier]

Duosion has an immunity to status, access to Acid Armor, and a whopping 18 more base SpA. I'm not going to run a crusade for its viability over Musharna, because it's clearly not better, but it's relevant enough for me to want to try it out!

rof tbh I just wrote down word-for-word what steven said to me in call to irk him. I really dont care about mushy in the slightest :)

 

[ryan]

Hex is better than Shadow Ball on Misdreavus. It doesn't really hit hard enough with Shadow Ball, which makes clicking Will-O-Wisp all the time more appealing anyways. But as someone who has used Misdreavus since XY NU, it's a great Pokemon.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Duosion has an immunity to status, access to Acid Armor, and a whopping 18 more base SpA. I'm not going to run a crusade for its viability over Musharna, because it's clearly not better, but it's relevant enough for me to want to try it out!

Musharna does have Barrier which is a viable move, access to Heal Bell to cure status and stat wise it beats Duosion easily even with the higher SpAtk. But I do agree that Duosion is viable just because of Magic Guard + Acid Armor. That set essentially only leaves it weak to Dark-types, crits and parahax/sleep, giving it the edge over Musharna as a CM sweeper.

 

[flowre]

At this point I think that sometimes people start to see things ban worthy once they are suspected. We were fine with Sneasel. It was a big threat, but we were well adapted to it, just like we are with other pokemon. The influence of "bigger" players/Smogon authorities and a bunch of standard arguments like "overcentralization" change a lot of minds. This reminds me of that time when some Ubers mods wanted to ban Shadow Tag in Ubers. Of course, that case was more extreme and ridiculous, but some players were actually convinced. This is what I mean when I say that, as a less active forum user, I can't convince you and your "circlejerk". I feel like the players' opinions are influenced by more than the actual metagame aspects. Or maybe the community is actually lazy and want less effort in their battles.
What am I trying to say? Nothing in particular. This could be applied to every tier. Please don't take this as a shitpost, we're here to discuss :^)

 

[MZ]

Or a lot of people were calling for a ban before it got suspected. Which is why it got suspected. Like pretty much all suspects. Besides, that means that the supermajority were all influenced by these few elites, which means that basically every who can vote is part of the ban sneasel circlejerk and Teddeh got left out.

edit: are you saying overcentralization isn't a valid argument ?_? lol

edit 2: maybe if you had mentioned gallade...

 

[flowre]

Or a lot of people were calling for a ban before it got suspected. Which is why it got suspected. Like pretty much all suspects. Besides, that means that the supermajority were all influenced by these few elites, which means that basically every who can vote is part of the ban sneasel circlejerk and Teddeh got left out.

edit: are you saying overcentralization isn't a valid argument ?_? lol

"?_?"

 

[Evan.]

At this point I think that sometimes people start to see things ban worthy once they are suspected. We were fine with Sneasel. It was a big threat, but we were well adapted to it, just like we are with other pokemon. The influence of "bigger" players/Smogon authorities and a bunch of standard arguments like "overcentralization" change a lot of minds. This reminds me of that time when some Ubers mods wanted to ban Shadow Tag in Ubers. Of course, that case was more extreme and ridiculous, but some players were actually convinced. This is what I mean when I say that, as a less active forum user, I can't convince you and your "circlejerk". I feel like the players' opinions are influenced by more than the actual metagame aspects. Or maybe the community is actually lazy and want less effort in their battles.
What am I trying to say? Nothing in particular. This could be applied to every tier. Please don't take this as a shitpost, we're here to discuss :^)

i dont think the meta was fine with sneasel at all. Yeah it took us a bit of time to realize how good it was, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't cancerous as fuck to play against. I look back on a ton of old teams in early ORAS and late XY and they're all incredibly sneasel weak. The result probably wouldn't be any different if we suspected it then rather than now. Think of it like Combusken in NU Beta, nobody realized that it was really good for the majority of the beta and then once it was discovered it was completely cancerous.

also I don't get when you talk about bigger voices swaying the majority of the vote. The bigger voices are bigger because they make solid points towards each side of the argument and are much more experienced which makes their opinions hold more weight than the opinion of Frankie Four-Post. Also im pretty sure that none of the bigger voices used standard af arguments like overusing the word "over-centralization" or other buzz words, they were well thought out posts with a clear consensus behind them.

I think people need to realize that the banning philosophy of Smogon is changing. As we move up in generations we can't just use the "broken in a vacuum" and "has no counters" argument to ban things. If we want a healthy metagame, we have to adapt our philosophy to more of a "banning to create a better metagame" sense. Sneasel and Gallade are the perfect pictures for these 2 banning philosophy: Gallade was a mon that people with a more traditional philosophy would ban because in a vacuum it's broken and has 0 counters, whereas Sneasel isn't traditionally broken, but it was banned to create a "better metagame". While you may not agree that Sneasel created a better or worse metagame, the fact of the matter is that 75% of people did which is why it got banned.

 

[Jim E. Russler]

A player's opinion should not be devalued for a lack of experience because of their post count or registration date. You can generally tell whether a player is informed or not during a suspect discussion by reading their message instead of the number under their name. I started using PS during the BW metas. I've played NU as my primary tier for most of that time. I never registered for the forums until several months after the ORAS release, but I have a few years of experience playing this metagame and watching it develop, and its not like it takes nearly that long for someone to come up with reasonable opinions about a tier. Someone waiting a while to sign up for the forums or being able to form a well reasoned opinion after playing the meta for the first time during the test isn't that uncommon.

flowre's post is confrontational and all, but there are valid points in there about the mentalities that can surface during a suspect/discussion.

That said, I respect the decisions of this community whether or not I personally agree, and am always excited to see how the metagame develops after big changes like this.

 

[Funbot28]

Can we please unban Combusken now since suspect is over?

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

we have to adapt our philosophy to more of a "banning to create a better metagame" sense.

Yeah let's not go there. But I agree with the rest of your post. Sneasel and Gallade were both clearly way more powerful than the rest of the tier. Same with the recent BP clause that was implemented, it was just too broken of a strategy. As simple as that, let's not get on the territory of metagame manipulation like you're hinting. Banning broken pokemon has the fortunate consequence of creating a more healthy metagame, but it gets dangerous when you go and do it the other way around. That's the concern flowre brought up and it's a very legitimate one. It's perfectly fine the way it's going now, let's keep it that way.

 

[Ares]

Can we please unban Combusken now since suspect is over?

This is being discussed by the NU council, there doesn't need to be any more posts asking for it to be unbanned. The suspect test literally just ended, have some patience.

 

[I3njamin]

Just want to point out that as of like four hours ago, smash pass is still working. Looking forward to when that ban actually gets implemented, but we should probably get that working before bringing back combusken and such.

 

[ryan]

We're waiting for the specifics of the new Baton Pass ban to be worked out before we do anything with Combusken. If you'd like to know more about what's going on with Baton Pass, keep an eye out on this thread. If Baton Passing Speed + other boosts is banned, Combusken will absolutely be unbanned. There's no real "council discussion." It's just waiting.

 

[CanadianWifier]

If Baton Passing Speed + other boosts is banned, Combusken will absolutely be unbanned.

I don't even play this game anymore and I know that Aldaron already announced that that exact thing is banned. In fact, it fucking happened 5 days ago ? _ ?

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...tegies-baton-pass.3537569/page-7#post-6310940

 

[boltsandbombers]

I don't even play this game anymore and I know that Aldaron already announced that that exact thing is banned. In fact, it fucking happened 5 days ago ? _ ?

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...tegies-baton-pass.3537569/page-7#post-6310940

Yes, it's banned, but unfortunately we're still waiting for the new rule to fully implemented on the server for everything to be official and such.

 

[ryan]

and we were waiting (until this morning) on how exactly they want to handle it before they implement it

fuckboy

 

[CanadianWifier]

and we were waiting (until this morning) on how exactly they want to handle it before they implement it

fuckboy

nice insult !
:)

 

[The Goomy]

and we were waiting (until this morning) on how exactly they want to handle it before they implement it

fuckboy

Lol. Was that really necessary?

And they're talking about things like how the mechanics should work in a PP stall situation (last mon)when BP is the last move or if you're mean looked and all you have PP wise is BP.

If that's the information you need to make a decision then so be it.