np: SUMO UU Stage 2 - Countdown

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If The Lord of The Flies is retested and permitted entry all my faith in the council will vanish.
<--this image is not mine. Don't sue me, senpai.
So, Xurkitree is still a massive issue, but with Buzzwole gone stall, semi-stall, and fat balance can go back to rolling with the punches just a little bit better.
What's often forgotten is that our vile, malaria-spreading friend was also a menace to stall, alongside its fellow UB. I've seen many teams that ran both Buzzwole and Xurkitree, against which no non-offensive playstyle could avoid ripping its hair out upon encountering. So, even though Xurkitree managed to hide from the prying eyes of the tier thanks to its offensive match-up deficiency, the fact that Buzzwole is gone gives more room to attempt to defeat Xurkitree, as opposed to expending all of your space to bring down one and then get demolished by the other. Since most teams needed at least two Buzzwole checks to get anywhere (at least, in my experience), being able to remove one of those checks for another Xurkitree check is definitely going to help make our squiggly friend much less of a pain in the neck.
I am not saying that Xurkitree isn't banworthy; I myself have no particular opinion of it. I'm just pointing out something that seems to have been forgotten.

EDIT: I found a real Xurkitree counter:
Goodra @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Outrage
- Earthquake

EV spread is still WIP, but this'll be good for the stall players to know!
 
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I did read some of the posts and didn't agree with them. I'm sure the council put in a lot of thought and effort to come up with the decision to ban Buzzwole, so kudos for that. However, I think a standard test is needed, so the public can vote on it.

How is using Dusclops to shut down Buzzwole and other non-Knock Off physical attackers a joke? See this is a common problem amongst some team builders; you're so caught up in the viability rankings you're missing out on great Pokémon residing in the RU/NU/PU land that can painlessly solve your team's major weakness.
 
Sorry for the two liner but what WhiteQueen just said really struck me as important, we shouldn't bandwagon and say sets are useless without testing if there is a clear logical reason to use them. Just see how PU embarrassed itself in this thread because a random 2 years ago proposed a good but unorthodox set: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pu-viability-rankings.3528743/page-24#post-6393539

Also I wanted to point out that Buzzwole does contribute a lot to defensive playstyles, probably slightly more than it takes away because yes it can be walled by very viable stallmons like Jellicent and Dusclops. Overall, the most recent decision was very detrimental to stall and maybe the concept of 6 wall stall is close to dead now. It would be an exggeration to say full stall is dead though and things like Scarf Krook and Mega Aero are certainly viable independent of Xurkitree so I really can't say the council's decision was wrong (and to be clear, nobody is saying it was).
 
I did read some of the posts and didn't agree with them. I'm sure the council put in a lot of thought and effort to come up with the decision to ban Buzzwole, so kudos for that. However, I think a standard test is needed, so the public can vote on it.

How is using Dusclops to shut down Buzzwole and other non-Knock Off physical attackers a joke? See this is a common problem amongst some team builders; you're so caught up in the viability rankings you're missing out on great Pokémon residing in the RU/NU/PU land that can painlessly solve your team's major weakness.
I completely agree with that last bit and am rather tired of the mockery one can receive for using things not on the viability list, yes tiers and the viability ranking all exist for a reason and when team building you should probably focus on using things actually in UU because they're reliable and generally better then anything from RU or below, but that doesn't mean everything else is trash.

Anywho, on the the actual subject at hand, our two UB frienemies!

Buzzwole
I'm kinda on the fence about this ban honestly, on the one hand it was nice to have a solid answer to things like Mamo, Krook, ect ect, without said answer being extremely passive or easy to wear down and Buzzwole was far from invincible, just kinda difficult to switch into until you knew what it was running.
However on the other hand, when you needed a physical wall or just a strong physical pokemon, you would really need a good reason NOT to run Buzz, the fact the it was good enough and common enough that people started running Toxic on it to counter other Buzzwole's said a lot about it.
The only two situations that you would've wanted to run a different physical wall was either if you needed hazard control and had no other way to fit it on the team, or you wanted to avoid stacking weaknesses, otherwise Buzz could be slapped on and do a good job.
I dunno, I completely get why it's banned but I wasn't unhappy with how the meta was shaping due to it's presence here, it just felt like it fit in UU better then other popular mons like Keldeo or Clefable did, in my opinion anyway. (Yes I know those two aren't really comparable to Buzz, but loads of people ran them just like they ran Buzz and I would argue that Clef was even less healthy despite it's more passive style.)

Xurkitree
Everything that could be said about what this monster can do and how best to deal with it has been gone over in great detail within this thread, and done so far better then I ever could so I won't waste my time trying to beat the already good and dead Rapidash, however I would like to ask a question to whoever takes the time to read this;
With how defensive teams have adapted by running more offensive mons to deal with Xurkitree, do you believe that it's a healthy for the meta that a defensive team has to use something that otherwise wouldn't be seen on a standard team of that style for the sake of beating a single threat?
Granted, this kinda issues isn't exactly new but it feels a bit more jarring this time around.
 

Can you imagine a team made of 6 Conks? It would be stupid as heck lmao
As you can see above, I'm gonna talk about Conkeldurr. Is it a post showing showcasing it's amazing xD™? No it isn't. I'm gonna talk about how stupid as fuck this mon is.

Everything started back in ORAS, when Zapdos left the tier and we gained three new Pokemon, named Celebi, Conkeldurr, and Sylveon. Celebi immediately became a top tier threat. Its Nasty Plot set could run many coverage options, such as Dazzling Gleam, Hidden Power Fire, Shadow Ball, and even Signal Beam. It could also use Leech Seed or Thunder Wave to have a great matchup against bulky or offensive playstyles, respectively. Sylveon got really hyped too, but its Choice Specs set was the first it used to wreck havoc, forcing any team to have a good Poison- or Steel-type to deal with it. Conk was, however, the worst of them all, at least on mid-ORAS. Its most used set was Assault Vest, which wasn't exactly bad, but not good as well. People also used Life Orb + Sheer Force, which was really, really terrible because it was slow as shit and Life Orb was a terrible item on Conk. During late-ORAS, however, people realized AV wasn't good and Life Orb was dogshit, so they finally started using the good sets; Choice Band and Bulk Up. Choice Band was a really scary wallbreaker, as it could legitimately 2HKO any Pokemon in the tier but Cresselia. Bulk Up was, though, way more focused on Conkeldurr's bulk. This set was especially scary because it could set up Bulk Up on passive Pokemon such as Empoleon, Tentacruel, and even Choice locked Hydreigon. Sylveon also changed trough the times, and its most used set became Wish, which was excellent on both balance and offense, mostly because it could check Conkeldurr. Celebi ended up being S Rank, and Conkeldurr and Sylveon A1 (a kind of A+ subrank, for those who are wondering).

Oh, Sun and Moon. The new generation of games came out, and we had new toys to play with. Primarina, Decidueye, and Tsareena were some of the new Pokemon. UU also got some Pokemon that were OU last generation, such as Latias, Scizor, Raikou, Starmie, Gliscor, and Slowbro. With all of these new toys, we couldn't even remember Conkeldurr existed. The first Viability Rankings came, and Conkeldurr was ranked B-, and we couldn't even complain, because this was more than enough for it. During UUPL, Conkeldurr was used 29 times, this means 12.50% of the teams had Conkeldurr. Isn't this a lot for a Pokemon that was B-? Yes it was. I'll leave the usage stats of UUPL below, but only with Conkeldurr's stats.

Code:
UUPL V Week 1 Usage Stats
| 22  | Conkeldurr        |  2 |  6.25% |  0.00% |

UUPL V Week 2 Usage Stats
| 24  | Conkeldurr        |    2 |  6.25% | 100.00% |

UUPL V Week 3 Usage Stats
| 14  | Conkeldurr        |    4 |  12.50% |  75.00% |

UUPL V Week 4 Usage Stats
| 35  | Conkeldurr        |    1 |  3.12% | 100.00% |

UUPL V Week 5 Usage Stats
| 11  | Conkeldurr        |    4 |  12.50% |  25.00% |

UUPL V Week 6 Usage Stats
| 7    | Conkeldurr        |    6 |  20.00% |  83.33% |

UUPL V Week 7 Usage Stats
| 7    | Conkeldurr        |    5 |  19.23% |  20.00% |

UUPL V Semifinals Usage Stats
| 4    | Conkeldurr        |    5 |  31.25% |  60.00% |

UUPL V Finals Usage Stats
| 2    | Conkeldurr        |    3 |  37.50% |  33.33% |

UUPL V Cumulative Usage Stats
| 12  | Conkeldurr        |  29 |  12.50% |  55.17% |


Y'all can see how Conkeldurr's usage grew trough UUPL. During the first week, only meeps and Lord Esche used it, and Lord Esche used its Bulk Up set, while meeps didn't show his set against TDK. I'm sorry if I'm too lazy to search for all the Week 2 replays to see Conk's set, but I can affirm people only used its best set recently.

Fortunately for us, unfortunately for Conkeldurr, a tier shift happened, and Pokemon that were previously UU rose to OU, and some OU Pokemon dropped to UU. Clefable, Keldeo, Gengar, and Mew were all good answers to Conkeldurr, and they left the tier, but UU gained a lot of interesting new toys, such as Alolan Muk, Buzzwole, Xurkitree, Mega Sceptile, Mega Swampert, Mega Beedrill, Mega Pidgeot, and Mega Steelix. Buzzwole was, for sure, the best of them all. Specially defensive Bulk Up was really good at breaking balance teams that lacked Mega Aerodactyl or Latias, and its offensive sets were extremely good as well. Buzzwole quickly established itself as a top tier threat, and it avoided the first round of bans UU did. Right after the Weavile suspect, the council decided to vote on Buzzwole, Xurkitree, and Latias, but this time Buzzwole got banned from the UnderUsed tier. The simple fact Buzzwole dominated the tier made Conkeldurr really underwhelming, but after its ban, Conkeldurr had the opportunity to shine again.

If you don't know what Conkeldurr set I'm going to talk about below, it's this one:


Conkeldurr @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off / Bulk Up
- Mach Punch
- Facade

This set is simply the most stupid thing ever, and I don't even know how this Pokemon is still allowed. This EV spread allows Conkeldurr to outspeed uninvested 70's, such as Mantine, while still allowing Conkeldurr to take lotta hits and hit like a truck.

Conkeldurr finds switch-in opportunities against passive shit, such as Tentacruel, Swampert, Alomomola, Suicune, Empoleon, Mega Steelix, defensive Scizor, and etc.. Once Flame Orb is activated, pick a Pokemon to die, unless you have one of the few viable Ghost-types in the tier and the opposing Conkeldurr is using Bulk Up instead of Knock Off, and even doing this is extremely risky, because you don't know if Conkeldurr is lacking Knock Off or not until it reveals Bulk Up. Facade is pretty much what makes this set broken, since the common Fighting-resists, such as Togekiss, Sylveon, and Slowbro, are easily 2HKOed by Facade. Oh, but revenge killing Conkeldurr must be easy, right? No, it is extremely hard, because some revenge killers, such as Hydreigon, Mienshao, Mega Aerodactyl, and Krookodile, can't either OHKO it, or are simply KOed by Match Punch after a bit of chip damage. The few Pokemon that can revenge kill Conkeldurr "safely" are Latias and Celebi, but they are unreliable because they are easy to Pursuit trap, so Metagross, Krookodile, Mega Aerodactyl and Weavile make really good teammates for Conkeldurr. Conkeldurr doesn't have ANY counter, and this is just stupid as hell. The argument "Oh, but hey, pif's stall has max HP max Defense Togekiss, it's a counter, as it takes less than 50% and can KO Conk with Air Slash!" is invalid because 1) Togekiss doesn't counter Conkeldurr, it's 2HKOed after Stealth Rock and relies on a 60% chance to beat Conkeldurr 1v1, and 2) Conkeldurr can easily switch out to a Togekiss hard check, such as Raikou, Xurkitree, and Mega Aerodactyl, and force it to switch out, thus KOing it after it switches into Facade again.

I'd also like to state that Conkeldurr limits teambuilding a lot. This Pokemon can really 6-0 you if you don't bring at least a hard check to it, such as Primarina and Latias. Balance teams rarely find any way to beat Conkeldurr, unless they use really niche Pokemon, such as Counter + Colbur Berry Slowbro, Counter Swampert, or Acrobatics Crobat (isn't even a Facade switch-in but at least switches into Knock Off well). Stall teams are easily beaten by Conkeldurr as well, and unless they use max Defense Togekiss (I didn't say it's bad I just said it can't be considered a counter because it can't switch into Facade after Stealth Rocks without being forced to switch out by one of Conkeldurr's teammates) or Counter Quagsire, they don't have counterplay for Conkeldurr at all. Other playstyles, such as offense and hyper offense can deal with Conkeldurr, but they must sacrifice a Pokemon every time Conkeldurr comes in.

Many can say Conkeldurr isn't broken because of its bad special bulk, just like when they said Buzzwole wasn't broken, but this doesn't matter at all. Conkeldurr's physical bulk is extremely good, and it easily avoids the OHKO from Mega Aerodactyl's Wing Attack, Mega Swampert's rain boosted Waterfall, and Choice Banded Weavile's Icicle Crash, unleashing a Guts boosted Drain Punch to recover its health and OHKO the opposing Pokemon (with Mach Punch if necessary). It also avoids the OHKO from Life Orb boosted Bullet Punch from Scizor. Its special bulk might be bad, but it's still not terrible because Conkeldurr can take, for example, one Sludge Wave from Nidoking, one Thunderbolt from Raikou, and even one Draco Meteor from Choice Scarf Hydreigon.

I'd like to finish this post by saying I'm not the only one who finds Conkeldurr at least low-key broken. There are many UUers that hate playing against and even with Conk as much as me, and this post must be taken seriously. There's basically no cost to fit Conkeldurr on one of your teams, and the fact it has really limited counterplay makes it extremely broken imo. I'll finish this post by leaving some UU Open replays below. These replays showcase how stupid Conkeldurr is, as you just need to click buttons to win against basically any archetype. Some of them show Conkeldurr breaking shit, or just revenge killing a Pokemon with Mach Punch.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-302002
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-302091
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-302521
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-602495240
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-602190540
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-301768
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-302023

Tl;dr: Ban Conk or at least Suspect Test it
 
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wow didn't know i was gonna be sitting down for a history lesson today. great post tho :^)

I do want to point out that max max togekiss can be considered a counter in a sense that it can defog on pretty much every single rocker (except for like mega aero i think), and the only way its switching in on rocks is if some random mon that wasn't expected to have rocks has it (like gliscor maybe? or mega pert) or if an immense amount of pressure has been applied to the stall team, and if thats the case, conkeldurr probably isn't super necessary to beat stall at that point.

Conk is really good obviously, and it threatens pretty much all play styles. vs offense it can almost guarantee at least a trade, if not more kills, and vs all the other play styles it just goes to town. Fighting priority boosted by guts is also ridiculous , but its also like barely weak enough that you wish it was stronger
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pidgeot-Mega: 136-162 (44.2 - 52.7%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sceptile-Mega: 144-171 (51.2 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Beedrill-Mega: 57-67 (21 - 24.7%)
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Krookodile: 272-324 (82.1 - 97.8%)

its only real downfall is how slow it is, as it pretty much will always have to take a hit before attacking. but it can also pretty much live any non super effective hit.

on paper it does sound worthy of a suspect, but in practice i feel like its relatively easy to play around. if using offense, you're likely gonna be sacking mons anyways for momentum, so trading big damage on conk is often worth it. i don't use stall a lot so idk about that, balance/bulky offense is a bit tougher, but thats also bc those play styles often require a higher degree of good plays since it cant check everything in the tier

also i want to point out that while conk has good bulk its largely attributed to its high HP stat, and often doesn't recover as much as you'd like with drain punch

TLDR i think i agree it could use a suspect/more thoughts and discussion, but as of now i don't think its ban worthy
 
hello!!!!!

as the pioneer of the good conk set, i feel i should probably offer my thoughts. i definitely agree with the points made by highways, but i would like to elaborate more on two points, which i feel weren't discussed too much by highways and what i think pushes conk over the top: the utility of mach punch and the how spammable facade is

mach punch is extremely useful for conk, as it opens up opportunities for it to either heavily damage or pressure offensive threats which could potentially outspeed and deal heavy damage to conk otherwise. it also allows for conk to function as a revenge killer in some situations, as it can pick off such threats with some prior damage. just to name some pokemon which are heavily pressured by mach punch: sharpedo is always ohko'd by mach punch, even after mega evolving; weavile is always ohko'd; magneton and crawdaunt are ohko'd 80% of the time without hazards up; mamoswine is ohko'd most of the time after one attack of lo damage + sr; hydreigon has 25% to be ohko'd after rocks, so this would be guaranteed after switching twice, which is a fairly common scenario; terrakion takes about 85% on average. i'm not going to go through an extensive list of pokemon that can be revenge killed by mach punch, but a number of offensive pokemon which don't resist fighting can expect to take 50%+ from mach punch, so if you include sr damage, it doesn't take too much to wear down some of these pokemon to the point where conk's mach punch can ko them. and of course, conk doesn't need to use mach punch in all these scenarios, it can quite easily pressure these pokemon out, especially if they're locked into a relatively weaker/resisted choiced attack, the 1v1 matchup problems conk can create in these scenarios apply such heavy pressure to opponents, since conk can pressure these pokemon out which may allow it to use a different attack instead, or using bulk up, which may put the opponent in a more dire situation as they may lose their conk check when it opts to use facade instead of mach punch.

so more on how spammable facade is, the fact that facade's base power is a fair bit higher than drain punch and fewer pokemon resist normal-type offensively, generally makes it conk's go-to move, along with the fact that conk is capable of dealing with normal resists with either drain punch or mach punch, and ghost-types with knock off if necessary (at this point i personally prefer bulk up more though for that moveslot). as highways said, the typical fighting resists are either 2hko'd and outsped on the bulkier side (slowbro, sylveon, gliscor, mantine, tentacruel, amoonguss, etc) and along with that, they're ohko'd on the offensive side (latias, np togekiss, crobat, nidoking, starmie, primarina, etc). so in general, conk can proceed to switch-in against some pokemon like empoleon, tentacruel, suicune, swampert, and easily proceed to click facade (as long as there isn't a ghost-type)

also more on the combination of facade + mach punch, this combination makes trying to predict against conk more difficult, since a cobalion or aerodactyl trying to switch in on a predicted facade may drop to mach punch (after rocks cobalion has a 60% chance of being ko'd by a combination of facade + mach punch, so in this example it can't really contain conk by switching in and trying to do some damage to it).

also another thing - i do feel the relatively low usage of ghosts in the tier is probably benefiting conk quite a bit in the current state of the meta, as it does open up the opportunity for conk to run bulk up more often, which just makes it more dangerous, as it can't be reliably taken down by physically defensive attacks, and it pressures potential revenge killers that aren't either latias, celebi, primarina, etc. as conk is capable of doing more damage with mach punch if needed.

overall, i do find conk to be too ridiculous, as it can switch-in against a decent number of pokemon generally found on balanced/stall teams, and proceed to mindlessly click facade in some situations without much prediction skill needed, poking significant holes in opposing teams
 
I would like to add one other set that really accentuates the power of Conkeldurr in the current meta. Highways, has already outlined that its limited answers in terms of revenge KO are very easily Pursuit trapped. bsu also mentioned that Conkeldurr is unable to deal enough damage to fast offensive threats either.

Conkeldurr @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Facade
- Bulk Up


Choosing to forgo Knock Off and run Bulk Up adds extra depth to the Conkeldurr argument. Ghost type Pokemon are not very common at the moment. Stats for UU open currently have Chandelure sitting at highest usage (28) where as viable Dark type partners include Weavile, Krookodile, Hydreigon, Crawdaunt, Sharpedo & Muk. The point I am trying to make is that the metagame is unfavourable towards Ghost type Pokemon, in turn, relieving pressure on Conkeldurr to run coverage in Knock Off.

So why is this important? Flame Orb + Bulk Up make Conkeldurr a very powerful threat at the moment. It's not like it's overly difficult for Conkeldurr to set up either. I was going to include a wall of calcs but there really is no point, aside from Ghost type Pokemon Conkeldurr is able to 2HKO every wall in UU.

Bulk Up also creates an issue when it comes to the revenge KO. Gaining +1 Defence limits your opponents options in terms of counter play. Furthermore, the Conkeldurr user is extending its usefulness by opening up an opportunity for a late game sweep.

Conkeldurr is starting to gain traction; Bulk Up adds another dimension to the whole idea of Conkeldurr as a legitimate threat to the stability of the metagame. Missing out on Knock Off does have a very large draw back, but as I've pointed out, as well as meepsvictory, the current meta has not been kind to Ghost type Pokemon.

Conkeldurr has limited switch-ins within the current meta, options in terms of RKO are very limited and quite easy to manage. I think we should have a good look at Conkeldurr and seriously consider how great of an effect it has on UU.
 
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I agree that Conkeldurr deserves a suspect test. With the removal of Buzzwole from the tier, Conkeldurr has become an insanely powerful wallbreaker. The Bulk Up set paired with a pursuit user such as Krookodile, makes Conkeldurr extremely hard to switch into. If you run a ghost type to check Bulk Up Conk, a simple double switch to a pursuit user would render your only Conk check gone.

Something else to note, in hindsight, it might have been better to conduct the Weavile suspect test after the anticipated Buzzwole re-suspect test. Having Buzzwole in the tier while Weavile was being tested may have trivialized Weavile's potential as a threat. After all, Buzzwole could easily handle Weavile. But with the recent departure of Buzzwole, similar to Conkeldurr, Weavile has also become a major threat and I expect its usage to rise in the near future. I think it might be best for the council to revisit Weavile somewhere down the line. Maybe SBB's vote to ban Weavile wasn't such a misguided idea after all.
 
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tbh if Conkeldurr is suspect, it should be the same for Xurkitree (y I hate this mon).

A few hours ago, while laddering, I met a opponent which plays Sticky Web Shuckle + Xurkitree TG (STAB / Grass Knot & Dazzling Gleam if I'm right) and tbh, I was playing a BO / Balanced and I get litteraly rekt. I trully think this kind of support allows Xurkitree to break through any kind of team archetype (Offense / Balanced / Stall).

Obv Xurk doesn't have a good natural Bulk like Conkeldurr neither a priority but it's speed is "kinda" better and Tail Glow allows him to became a huge threat so fast.
Tbh with Z-Stone, Shuca Berry or even Zap Plate / Specs, Xurkitree can threaten easily a huge part of the wole metagame.
 
tbh if Conkeldurr is suspect, it should be the same for Xurkitree (y I hate this mon).

A few hours ago, while laddering, I met a opponent which plays Sticky Web Shuckle + Xurkitree TG (STAB / Grass Knot & Dazzling Gleam if I'm right) and tbh, I was playing a BO / Balanced and I get litteraly rekt. I trully think this kind of support allows Xurkitree to break through any kind of team archetype (Offense / Balanced / Stall).

Obv Xurk doesn't have a good natural Bulk like Conkeldurr neither a priority but it's speed is "kinda" better and Tail Glow allows him to became a huge threat so fast.
Tbh with Z-Stone, Shuca Berry or even Zap Plate / Specs, Xurkitree can threaten easily a huge part of the wole metagame.
While I agree that Xurkitree is indeed an issue, the two behave differently enough that I don't think banning one would justify banning the other, like at all.
And Conkeldurr actually eclipses Xurk it terms of threat level at the moment, at least with Xurkitree it needs support or a turn of set up before it goes to town, Conk on the other hand just needs Flame Orb to activate before it can start doing damage.
Even if you're using a set that requires minimum support like Specs, Conk still comes out looking far better;

252 SpA Choice Specs Xurkitree Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 273-322 (67.5 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 265-312 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

(Yes I know Mew is OU, I'm just using it as an example because of it's bulk on both ends being equal.)

Conkeldurr hits almost as hard with Facade as a Specs STAB T-bolt, with the only drawback being the 6% damage from burn each turn, it's like a Life Orb set juiced up on Buzzwole brand roids. Whatever survives that also has to worry about getting bonked by an incredibly strong Mach Punch or getting bashed by Knock Off in the case of Ghost types.

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Jellicent: 360-424 (89.3 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Sure Xurkitree can hit way harder after a Tail Glow or with a Z-move, but not so freely and reliably, and unlike our sparky pain in the butt UB, Conk can still put in work versus HO thanks to it's bulk and priority.
Again, I agree that Xurk isn't healthy or fun to have in UU, but Conk makes it look manageable by comparison and I don't see how having a suspect test for one would lead to a test for the other when Conk is easily the better and more splashable of the two.
 
"N-now th-that that don't kill me
Can only make me stronger"


I suppose I have to say something about this Conk issue. Conk, is the bane of Offense/Balance's existence. It's sheer
ability to dent any switchin puts immense strain on your thought process while playing. I mean sure, you can make aggressive doubles all day on it and pressure it and force it to take rocks damage, but you can't always be right about those plays, and balance gives Conk a lot of opportunities to switch in, and with hefty 105/95/65 defenses (thanks CoolStoryBrobat) means it will take a hit more often than not and then gain most of it back because Guts boosted Drain Punch coming off 145 Attack hits like a truck to everything neutral, and Facade 2HKOes any non ghosts that Drain doesn't hit neutrally ( a la Latias, Sylveon, Gliscor), and I seldom believe outside of like weird TR, Stall, or BO that anyone uses one of the three relevant ghosts (Cof, Jelli,Doublade respectively.) and even if they did, Knock Off kills outright or 2HKOes all three.

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 289-341 (96 - 113.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 219-258 (62.2 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 249-294 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 172-204 (53.9 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cofagrigus: 180-212 (56.2 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Jellicent: 348-410 (86.1 - 101.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


And before you say "but the low speed!" It gets Mach Punch, and it can pick off a number of speedy threats such as Mega Aero, Coballion, and Infernape without much effort.

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Infernape: 151-178 (51.5 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 130-154 (43.1 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 186-218 (57.5 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Bulk Up sets have a great matchup vs Stall and slower teams, as it can break through their most preeminent physical walls like Quag/Msteel without a sweat once the ghost type or Mandibuzz dies, and behind veil in my experience, it gets a kill, especially with hazards up. Lastly, it can run shit like ice and thunder punch to break through other shit also.

In conclusion, Conkeldurr is a mon with both above average bulk and attacking stats. It can both take and dish out hits like no other, even if it has a terrible Spdef stat. Conk can boost its attack stat to innumerable levels, it has enough coverage to cover most of the tier and it pressures every playstyle with those moves. Does any of this sound familiar? Does this sound like me describing the god of flex that was recently banned? Yes Conk is less threatening than buzzwole. But this is like comparing a 5-ton weight to a 2.5 ton weight. They still are enormously pressuring to anything. My larger point is that we banned buzzwole for some of the same reasons Conk is so good in this meta, and honestly, this mon shouldn't stay around as part of the uu tier if we ever want to call it healthy.
 
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Can you imagine a team made of 6 Conks? It would be stupid as heck lmao
As you can see above, I'm gonna talk about Conkeldurr. Is it a post showing showcasing it's amazing xD™? No it isn't. I'm gonna talk about how stupid as fuck this mon is.

Everything started back in ORAS, when Zapdos left the tier and we gained three new Pokemon, named Celebi, Conkeldurr, and Sylveon. Celebi immediately became a top tier threat. Its Nasty Plot set could run many coverage options, such as Dazzling Gleam, Hidden Power Fire, Shadow Ball, and even Signal Beam. It could also use Leech Seed or Thunder Wave to have a great matchup against bulky or offensive playstyles, respectively. Sylveon got really hyped too, but its Choice Specs set was the first it used to wreck havoc, forcing any team to have a good Poison- or Steel-type to deal with it. Conk was, however, the worst of them all, at least on mid-ORAS. Its most used set was Assault Vest, which wasn't exactly bad, but not good as well. People also used Life Orb + Sheer Force, which was really, really terrible because it was slow as shit and Life Orb was a terrible item on Conk. During late-ORAS, however, people realized AV wasn't good and Life Orb was dogshit, so they finally started using the good sets; Choice Band and Bulk Up. Choice Band was a really scary wallbreaker, as it could legitimately 2HKO any Pokemon in the tier but Cresselia. Bulk Up was, though, way more focused on Conkeldurr's bulk. This set was especially scary because it could set up Bulk Up on passive Pokemon such as Empoleon, Tentacruel, and even Choice locked Hydreigon. Sylveon also changed trough the times, and its most used set became Wish, which was excellent on both balance and offense, mostly because it could check Conkeldurr. Celebi ended up being S Rank, and Conkeldurr and Sylveon A1 (a kind of A+ subrank, for those who are wondering).

Oh, Sun and Moon. The new generation of games came out, and we had new toys to play with. Primarina, Decidueye, and Tsareena were some of the new Pokemon. UU also got some Pokemon that were OU last generation, such as Latias, Scizor, Raikou, Starmie, Gliscor, and Slowbro. With all of these new toys, we couldn't even remember Conkeldurr existed. The first Viability Rankings came, and Conkeldurr was ranked B-, and we couldn't even complain, because this was more than enough for it. During UUPL, Conkeldurr was used 29 times, this means 12.50% of the teams had Conkeldurr. Isn't this a lot for a Pokemon that was B-? Yes it was. I'll leave the usage stats of UUPL below, but only with Conkeldurr's stats.

Code:
UUPL V Week 1 Usage Stats
| 22  | Conkeldurr        |  2 |  6.25% |  0.00% |

UUPL V Week 2 Usage Stats
| 24  | Conkeldurr        |    2 |  6.25% | 100.00% |

UUPL V Week 3 Usage Stats
| 14  | Conkeldurr        |    4 |  12.50% |  75.00% |

UUPL V Week 4 Usage Stats
| 35  | Conkeldurr        |    1 |  3.12% | 100.00% |

UUPL V Week 5 Usage Stats
| 11  | Conkeldurr        |    4 |  12.50% |  25.00% |

UUPL V Week 6 Usage Stats
| 7    | Conkeldurr        |    6 |  20.00% |  83.33% |

UUPL V Week 7 Usage Stats
| 7    | Conkeldurr        |    5 |  19.23% |  20.00% |

UUPL V Semifinals Usage Stats
| 4    | Conkeldurr        |    5 |  31.25% |  60.00% |

UUPL V Finals Usage Stats
| 2    | Conkeldurr        |    3 |  37.50% |  33.33% |

UUPL V Cumulative Usage Stats
| 12  | Conkeldurr        |  29 |  12.50% |  55.17% |


Y'all can see how Conkeldurr's usage grew trough UUPL. During the first week, only meeps and Lord Esche used it, and Lord Esche used its Bulk Up set, while meeps didn't show his set against TDK. I'm sorry if I'm too lazy to search for all the Week 2 replays to see Conk's set, but I can affirm people only used its best set recently.

Fortunately for us, unfortunately for Conkeldurr, a tier shift happened, and Pokemon that were previously UU rose to OU, and some OU Pokemon dropped to UU. Clefable, Keldeo, Gengar, and Mew were all good answers to Conkeldurr, and they left the tier, but UU gained a lot of interesting new toys, such as Alolan Muk, Buzzwole, Xurkitree, Mega Sceptile, Mega Swampert, Mega Beedrill, Mega Pidgeot, and Mega Steelix. Buzzwole was, for sure, the best of them all. Specially defensive Bulk Up was really good at breaking balance teams that lacked Mega Aerodactyl or Latias, and its offensive sets were extremely good as well. Buzzwole quickly established itself as a top tier threat, and it avoided the first round of bans UU did. Right after the Weavile suspect, the council decided to vote on Buzzwole, Xurkitree, and Latias, but this time Buzzwole got banned from the UnderUsed tier. The simple fact Buzzwole dominated the tier made Conkeldurr really underwhelming, but after its ban, Conkeldurr had the opportunity to shine again.

If you don't know what Conkeldurr set I'm going to talk about below, it's this one:


Conkeldurr @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off / Bulk Up
- Mach Punch
- Facade

This set is simply the most stupid thing ever, and I don't even know how this Pokemon is still allowed. This EV spread allows Conkeldurr to outspeed uninvested 70's, such as Mantine, while still allowing Conkeldurr to take lotta hits and hit like a truck.

Conkeldurr finds switch-in opportunities against passive shit, such as Tentacruel, Swampert, Alomomola, Suicune, Empoleon, Mega Steelix, defensive Scizor, and etc.. Once Flame Orb is activated, pick a Pokemon to die, unless you have one of the few viable Ghost-types in the tier and the opposing Conkeldurr is using Bulk Up instead of Knock Off, and even doing this is extremely risky, because you don't know if Conkeldurr is lacking Knock Off or not until it reveals Bulk Up. Facade is pretty much what makes this set broken, since the common Fighting-resists, such as Togekiss, Sylveon, and Slowbro, are easily 2HKOed by Facade. Oh, but revenge killing Conkeldurr must be easy, right? No, it is extremely hard, because some revenge killers, such as Hydreigon, Mienshao, Mega Aerodactyl, and Krookodile, can't either OHKO it, or are simply KOed by Match Punch after a bit of chip damage. The few Pokemon that can revenge kill Conkeldurr "safely" are Latias and Celebi, but they are unreliable because they are easy to Pursuit trap, so Metagross, Krookodile, Mega Aerodactyl and Weavile make really good teammates for Conkeldurr. Conkeldurr doesn't have ANY counter, and this is just stupid as hell. The argument "Oh, but hey, pif's stall has max HP max Defense Togekiss, it's a counter, as it takes less than 50% and can KO Conk with Air Slash!" is invalid because 1) Togekiss doesn't counter Conkeldurr, it's 2HKOed after Stealth Rock and relies on a 60% chance to beat Conkeldurr 1v1, and 2) Conkeldurr can easily switch out to a Togekiss hard check, such as Raikou, Xurkitree, and Mega Aerodactyl, and force it to switch out, thus KOing it after it switches into Facade again.

I'd also like to state that Conkeldurr limits teambuilding a lot. This Pokemon can really 6-0 you if you don't bring at least a hard check to it, such as Primarina and Latias. Balance teams rarely find any way to beat Conkeldurr, unless they use really niche Pokemon, such as Counter + Colbur Berry Slowbro, Counter Swampert, or Acrobatics Crobat (isn't even a Facade switch-in but at least switches into Knock Off well). Stall teams are easily beaten by Conkeldurr as well, and unless they use max Defense Togekiss (I didn't say it's bad I just said it can't be considered a counter because it can't switch into Facade after Stealth Rocks without being forced to switch out by one of Conkeldurr's teammates) or Counter Quagsire, they don't have counterplay for Conkeldurr at all. Other playstyles, such as offense and hyper offense can deal with Conkeldurr, but they must sacrifice a Pokemon every time Conkeldurr comes in.

Many can say Conkeldurr isn't broken because of its bad special bulk, just like when they said Buzzwole wasn't broken, but this doesn't matter at all. Conkeldurr's physical bulk is extremely good, and it easily avoids the OHKO from Mega Aerodactyl's Wing Attack, Mega Swampert's rain boosted Waterfall, and Choice Banded Weavile's Icicle Crash, unleashing a Guts boosted Drain Punch to recover its health and OHKO the opposing Pokemon (with Mach Punch if necessary). It also avoids the OHKO from Life Orb boosted Bullet Punch from Scizor. Its special bulk might be bad, but it's still not terrible because Conkeldurr can take, for example, one Sludge Wave from Nidoking, one Thunderbolt from Raikou, and even one Draco Meteor from Choice Scarf Hydreigon.

I'd like to finish this post by saying I'm not the only one who finds Conkeldurr at least low-key broken. There are many UUers that hate playing against and even with Conk as much as me, and this post must be taken seriously. There's basically no cost to fit Conkeldurr on one of your teams, and the fact it has really limited counterplay makes it extremely broken imo. I'll finish this post by leaving some UU Open replays below. These replays showcase how stupid Conkeldurr is, as you just need to click buttons to win against basically any archetype. Some of them show Conkeldurr breaking shit, or just revenge killing a Pokemon with Mach Punch.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-302002
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-302091
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-302521
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-602495240
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-602190540
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-301768
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-302023

Tl;dr: Ban Conk or at least Suspect Test it
I agree with everything this guy said about Conkeldurr. Without Buzzwole, it's even more impossivle for stall teams to handle than Xurkitree. At least with Xurkitree, you can have some "countermeasures" like running a Sp.Def Kyurem or a terrible set like Assault Vest Amoongus. Against a burned Conkeldurr with Facade, stall teams are virtually fucked at preview. Max HP/Def Togekiss and Sylveon alone can't take it on. Even with both a Liquid Ozze Tentacruel and one of those two fairies above on your team, it's still not a reliable counter. Stall has absolutely no answer to Conkeldurr unless you play your Togekiss/Sylveon and Tentacruel combo impeccably.

Buzzwole has hard counters; Conkeldurr has none (because of Knock Off). Suspect or Ban it pls.
 
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