np: USUM UU Stage 5 - Obsessions (Kommonium Z and Scolipede banned from UU)

#51
Firstable geeezer, you should make the difference between Kommo-O and Kommonium Z cuz' it's the second which make 50/50.
And like a lot of Wallbreaker in Underused (Primarina, Crawdaunt or even Heracross), you need to make 50/50 when you facing them. I clearly think that people overestimate Kommo-O with Kommonium Z. It's a threat for sure but it's not as threatening as other things that we banned and the metagame can play around it.
 
#52
Firstable geeezer, you should make the difference between Kommo-O and Kommonium Z cuz' it's the second which make 50/50.
And like a lot of Wallbreaker in Underused (Primarina, Crawdaunt or even Heracross), you need to make 50/50 when you facing them. I clearly think that people overestimate Kommo-O with Kommonium Z. It's a threat for sure but it's not as threatening as other things that we banned and the metagame can play around it.
I think you understood I meant kommonium-z. Its pretty obvious thats the set being discussed as potentially broken at this point. I agree that wallbreakers also create these 50/50 scenarios most of the time. Except tentacruel always counters azumarill, empoleon always counters primarina, defensive altaria mega counters crawdaunt, and I guess you could use colbur berry slowbro or something to counter SD heracross (admittedly moonblast sylveon and return max def Maltaria counter kommo-o). But the real difference here is the mons you mention are wallbreakers. They dont have any sweeping potential unlike Kommo-o. Kommo-o creates these 50/50 s like the wallbreakers you mention but if you predict wrong you might lose the game instead of losing a pokemon. Its a big difference
 
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#53
the more i think about it the more i realize that each of kommo's sets are pretty underwhelming on their own, but its the vast range of different sets it can run that make it so threatening.

idk if that sentiment has already been expressed but i feel like thats a pretty decent summary of kommo.
Additionally the fact that it has a super strong special z move that then runs a mostly physical set is also tough to deal with bc not many mons have good bulk in both and usually would take a lot from the other.
traditionally mons like quagsire, a full phys or special amoonguss, doublade, shit like that would be able to handle attacks from one spectrum but can crumble to the combo of both. not even accounting for like physical vs special sweeping kommo sets, as well as like shit like life orb mixed or like belly drum or whatever

Perhaps its versatility is what pushes it from decent sweeper to broken threat??

-rambles from grumpy college student stressed about finals
 
#54
Hi Guys!
I think that Kommo o is a great mon and def hard to counter but it's not broken and we don't need to ban it. There enough counters to it that it doesn't make one pokemon with a very high usage rate.
About Azu, Serp, and Scolipede: Honestly I think they should stay. None of them are broken, just really good, and Azu might not even be that good tbh.

Lol low quality post
 
#56
How long does it take to start a suspect? Kommonium-z and to some dregree scolipede are ruining the tier
At least for scolipede, as stated in OP and the 9th post its like a council resuspect thing so if they deem it ban worthy it'll be sent back to BL

for Kommo I'm pretty sure theyre still going to decide its fate through a council vote
 

Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
UU Leader
#57
How long does it take to start a suspect? Kommonium-z and to some dregree scolipede are ruining the tier
Glad you asked!

After discussing, testing and reviewing this thread, the council is going to hold a vote on KOMMONIUM-Z and SCOLIPEDE to determine whether they should remain UU.

These are the only two Pokemon where there appears to be a clear consensus that they require a closer look. While some people have expressed concerns with other elements such as recent drops Serperior and Azumarill, we felt that focusing on these two threats would allow us to properly look at these other drops in a more settled meta.

Expect vote results by this weekend.
 

Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
UU Leader
#58


With each receiving 10/11 council votes to ban, Kommonium Z and Scolipede are both banned from UU! Individual council votes and reasoning are to be found in the hide tags below. Eyan and The Immortal, please ban Kommonium Z and Scolipede from the UU ladder.

Thanks to all for participating in the discussion.

VOTES:
  • BAN: 10
  • DO NOT BAN: 1

Do Not Ban

While Kommo-o is certainly a top-tier threat, the tier possesses enough counterplay to keep it from being broken. Fairy-types can block Clanging Scales, Kommo-o suffers from its inability to run a physical Dragon-type STAB in addition to Clanging Scales without running into coverage problems, and Kommo-o is forced to choose between reducing its own survivability with Close Combat or low damage output with Drain Punch. Pokemon like Hippowdon can check it defensively, and it only gets one chance to use its Z-Move. Between the ubiquity of Toxic to deal with Pokemon like Rotom-W and Latias, access to powerful priority moves, Fairy-types that prevent it from freely clicking Clanging Scales, defensive checks like Hippowdon and Mega Altaria, and revenge killers like Choice Scarf Latias and Hydreigon, the tier has the tools it needs to handle Kommo-o.


Ban

This z move gives kommo-o too easy of a way to sweep late game. Since special and physical sets are both viable and share different counters, it is too difficult to prepare for


Ban

kommonium doesn't appear to be broken from a teambuilding standpoint because of how good fairies are and how easily they fit on and contribute to a team. but during actual play it definitely feels overbearing with several instances coming down to just guesssing games (whether or not it's going to use its z move, or is it going to dd, or is it going to chip away at my checks with coverage) and its set (special z-mo, dd zmo -this also raises questions of coverage). in addition to this revenge killing is a lot harder due to the ridiculous bulk after the boosts and access to drain punch. kommonium should be banned


Ban

kommo is too tough to take down after the z move without one of two scarfers and sets up way too easily.


Ban

Clangorous Soulblaze makes use of a move that's actually good on Kommo-o, so after setting up, it's still not a wasted moveslot when it just gives Kommo-o good mixed results attacking capabilities. Its mediocre power and Speed even after boosting is easily offset by its great bulk and access to Dragon Dance and recovery in Drain Punch. Soundproof and options like Close Combat and Iron Tail are just icing on the cake.


Ban

Despite what some people like to imply, there are more ways of playing around Kommo-o than "being forced to run a Fairy-type" and even if it was the only way, that alone wouldn't be enough to make Kommo-o "too much"; I'm not voting ban based on that. Once Kommo-o gets the ball rolling, it's incredibly difficult to stop, which makes it a massive threat in the mid to late game. The overall bulk and typing gives Kommo plenty set up chances without any significant amount of risk, as it does tend to carry two setup moves. Dragon Dance helps Kommo heavily punish weakened Fairy-types, which then gives it the opportunity to throw it's Z-move to become an even bigger threat. Once Kommo setups with Clangorous Soulblaze, it becomes virtually impossible to revenge kill, makes getting additional boosts easier vs certain teams, and hits fairly hard from both side of spectrum. Kommo isn't a particularly good wallbreaker and does struggle hard vs certain Pokemon and playstyles (stall mainly), but it's one of the hardest Pokemon to check / counter offensively and easily walks through relatively frail or weakened teams.


Ban

It's really kind of insane how much work Kommo-o puts in with the Z-move, even against teams where it really seems like it shouldn't. Fairies don't stop this thing barring more or less perfect prediction; more often than not they just end up getting worn down until they're in the range of a +1 PJab and then Kommo-o sweeps. Priority doesn't kill it because of its great bulk. Only two Scarf users can hope to threaten it at all. This thing is just deadly in the mid-game in a way I find really bad for the current meta.


Ban

the ability it gives koommo to sweep entire teams w/o much effort plus the difficulty of making it rk, makes this item unhealthy for the tier


Ban

Kommo-Z should definitely be banned. Having a strong one-time 185BP STAB that simultaneously boosts all stats by a stage is a bit too much. Kommo becomes too threatening too fast thanks to its z-move and it could be especially difficult to have sufficient counterplay against thanks to the defense boosts.




Ban

I voted ban on Kommonium Z because of how hard it is to stop Kommo-o after its stats are boosted by its signature Z-Move. While it isn't hugely powerful after a (single) boost, it does become very bulky alongside its boost in speed. Kommonium Z by itself has pretty much invalidated previously dominant Choice Scarf-users like Infernape, because they can't do any real damage to Kommo-o after its defense is boosted, which restricts team building massively. Kommo-o's combination of bulk, power, speed and movepool push it over the edge (insert Pearl artwork here) for me.


VOTES:
  • BAN: 10
  • DO NOT BAN: 1
Ban

The combination of Speed Boost and Swords Dance in conjunction with just enough coverage to get past its usual checks if it needs to makes it hard to scout and check. Priority is the closest thing to a surefire way to deal with it (it outspeeds any revenge killer after a boost, can bypass checks with the right coverage, and doesn't care about Thunder Wave because it can just keep boosting its Speed), but it has just enough bulk to survive most priority attacks and remove the user with the appropriate Z-Move. Speaking of which, Z-Moves are what really make this Pokemon broken. Base 100 Attack isn't normally that impressive, but Z-Moves give it just enough power to muscle past Pokemon that could ordinarily check it defensively.


Ban

Swords Dance, Speed Boost, good coverage, and the option for a z move make this pokemon too difficult to check


Ban

scolipede should also be banned because outside of a few select mons (mega aggron) and strong priority (scizor and cb azu) it's damn hard to deal with this pokemon should it get a chance to swords dance. between its different coverage options and different potential z moves it's extremely hard to deal with and revenge killing outside of priority is an impossibility.


Ban

scolipede sd's and sweeps 95% of the metagame at a moments notice.


Ban

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...banned-see-post-9.3621032/page-2#post-7594740 I outlined my main thoughts on Scolipede here without leaning towards either side. Voting ban now because I found that I overestimated how hard it was to set up. Compounding that with how giving it any leeway and scouting just makes it more dangerous every single turn, the moveslots issue isn't as big anymore.


Do Not Ban

Scolipede can be pretty scary at +2 Attack with Speed Boost, but I feel like that's just not enough for me. Scolipede lacks initial power, specially because most people are running Z-move, which means you are usually forced into setting up to be able to threaten teams with it, that can be a major problem with a Pokemon that is SR weak, has an awful typing and mediocre bulk. Scolipede does have the potential to setup on Fairy-types, which in theory is nice but in practice you get 1v1d by them if you aren't running Poison Jab, and Poison Jab despite being STAB is uncommon on Scolipede because it really needs the super effective coverage Aqua Tail and Earthquake provide. Lastly, just like Kommo-o, Scolipede struggles heavily vs certain Pokemon and is practically dead weight vs stall teams, which really doesn't help. I don't think being impossible to revenge kill / check with faster Pokemon is enough to make it broken.


Ban

Speed Boost + Swords Dance + decent offensive typing/movepool and non-shit attack is just a really stupid combination. Yeah it sucks versus stall, but it straight up sweeps a surprising number of matches without actually requiring any real support, and can often come in multiple times a game even if it gets forced out by something like CB Scizor. The unpredictability of Z moves is the nail in the coffin for this thing.




Ban

Scolipede, though very difficult from Kommo-Z, is similar in the sense that it becomes too threatening too fast, being able to raise its attack and speed simultaneously. Between its coverage, power after an SD, various Z-Move options, and being able to outspeed the whole meta after one turn, it too is certainly too overwhelming for the tier.




Ban

I voted ban on Scolipede because of the tools it has to support its Swords Dance set, which turns it from very good to overpowered, in my opinion. First and foremost there's Speed Boost. You can't outspeed Scolipede in order to check it and its typing and naturally high defense makes priority attacks (bar like Accelerock) an unreliably countermeasure as well. It has the coverage moves the complement its STAB moves and can utilize Z-Moves to blow past otherwise defense answers, too.
 
#62
What are your opinions about Serperior? Is it getting out of hand? What is its best set?
I also want to know what changes when scolipede and kommonium z are banned. Kommonium z being banned really hurts Kommo-o, which probably drops to C/C- on the strength of its Dragon Dance Close Combat set. Or perhaps to UR if fairies remain this common. Scolipede's ban will help offense because Scolipede rocked vs offense (swords dance + speed boost). I think some other z-move users will get better now that scolipede and especially kommo-o no longer monopolize the z-slot.

What do you guys think?
 
#64
What are your opinions about Serperior? Is it getting out of hand? What is its best set?
I also want to know what changes when scolipede and kommonium z are banned. Kommonium z being banned really hurts Kommo-o, which probably drops to C/C- on the strength of its Dragon Dance Close Combat set. Or perhaps to UR if fairies remain this common. Scolipede's ban will help offense because Scolipede rocked vs offense (swords dance + speed boost). I think some other z-move users will get better now that scolipede and especially kommo-o no longer monopolize the z-slot.

What do you guys think?
I personally don't like Serperior in the tier. Sure, it's weak; but a 130BP Nasty Plot, 113 Speed stat, decent 75/95/95 bulk , and an okay defensive typing (by "okay" I mean not weak to the viable priorities in UU barring Mamoswine, which can't switch in on it directly) is too much for UU, in my opinion.

People use Grass resists, such as Muk-Alola, Amoonguss, Altaria-Mega, Celebi, Crobat and et cetera to counter Serperior. While they seem like fair counterplay on paper, this is not the case in practice. Muk-Alola gets stalled out by SubSeed (if you Leech Seed it on the switch in), Amoonguss dies to Leaf Storm -> Z-Hyper Beam -> Hidden Power Fire, Altaria-Mega dies to Leaf Storm -> Z-Hyper Beam, Celebi dies to Leaf Storm -> Z-Hyper Beam if offensive and to Leaf Storm -> Z-Hyper Beam -> Hidden Power Fire and Crobat doesn't appreciate a Z-Hyper Beam on the switch-in, at all.

As I mentioned earlier, it is not easy to revenge kill with a slower priority user (barring Mamoswine, whose Ice Shard isn't close to kill from full) so you are forced to run Pokémon that outspeed it, such as Scarf Latias, Scarf Hydreigon, Crobat, Aerodactyl-Mega and et cetera for it. None of them appreciate switching in on Serperior (they might potentially get hit by Glare, even).

As for Kommo-o, I don't really know if it will get unranked... it did get buffed with a good Fighting-type STAB, though I don't think it will go higher than C rank in viability.
 
#66
These deserved bans. They both had diverse movepools that could just obliterate teams that weren't prepared for them, and sweep some teams that were prepared for them, but were worn down, etc. This was especially the case for Kommo-o, as the ability to take down or do heavy damage to a staying in mon and get a boost in every stat in the same turn is definitely on the broken side. Drain Punch also made it harder to kill in some situations.
 
#67
What's going on with the tier? Has anyone else noticed the huge surge of stall?

I'm talking about a pressure stall team Killintime used and another I think Hikari used that includes Moltres, a Hjkhj stall that had Articuno too, the bugzinator stall in the sample thread that has Xatu and Scizor. I also, occasionally, bring out a stall team usually with Gliscor Blissey and Amoonguss.

So many stall teams recently...

Also there is still a ton of VoltTurn teams, many of which use Scizor, Serperior, Azumarill, and either Rotom Wash or Mega Manectric?

Anyone notice a dearth of diversity or is it just my ladder run like this?
 
#68
What's going on with the tier? Has anyone else noticed the huge surge of stall?

I'm talking about a pressure stall team Killintime used and another I think Hikari used that includes Moltres, a Hjkhj stall that had Articuno too, the bugzinator stall in the sample thread that has Xatu and Scizor. I also, occasionally, bring out a stall team usually with Gliscor Blissey and Amoonguss.

So many stall teams recently...

Also there is still a ton of VoltTurn teams, many of which use Scizor, Serperior, Azumarill, and either Rotom Wash or Mega Manectric?

Anyone notice a dearth of diversity or is it just my ladder run like this?
I've noticed a few of the stall teams you mentioned, but I haven't noticed a massive surge of them. However, I have faced an absolutely massive amount of Volt Turn recently, often with the mons you stated. From what I've seen, the meta has gotten noticeably less diverse, but it's still a fun meta to play imo.
 
#69
I agree. I face stall atleast 1/3 of the time. Which is strange because stall hasnt gotten better at all. Both azu and serp do well vs stall. I havent noticed those 4 mons you mention together but azu and serp are very often paired.
 
#70
I personally don't like Serperior in the tier. Sure, it's weak; but a 130BP Nasty Plot, 113 Speed stat, decent 75/95/95 bulk , and an okay defensive typing (by "okay" I mean not weak to the viable priorities in UU barring Mamoswine, which can't switch in on it directly) is too much for UU, in my opinion.

People use Grass resists, such as Muk-Alola, Amoonguss, Altaria-Mega, Celebi, Crobat and et cetera to counter Serperior. While they seem like fair counterplay on paper, this is not the case in practice. Muk-Alola gets stalled out by SubSeed (if you Leech Seed it on the switch in), Amoonguss dies to Leaf Storm -> Z-Hyper Beam -> Hidden Power Fire, Altaria-Mega dies to Leaf Storm -> Z-Hyper Beam, Celebi dies to Leaf Storm -> Z-Hyper Beam if offensive and to Leaf Storm -> Z-Hyper Beam -> Hidden Power Fire and Crobat doesn't appreciate a Z-Hyper Beam on the switch-in, at all.

As I mentioned earlier, it is not easy to revenge kill with a slower priority user (barring Mamoswine, whose Ice Shard isn't close to kill from full) so you are forced to run Pokémon that outspeed it, such as Scarf Latias, Scarf Hydreigon, Crobat, Aerodactyl-Mega and et cetera for it. None of them appreciate switching in on Serperior (they might potentially get hit by Glare, even).

As for Kommo-o, I don't really know if it will get unranked... it did get buffed with a good Fighting-type STAB, though I don't think it will go higher than C rank in viability.
I don't really think serperior puts that much pressure on team building, I mean if ur running any kind of offense you basically have to have a scarfer or fast mon that'll just naturally be faster than base 113 otherwise thats just on u as a builder. The fact that it can get by some checks with a Z move is just kind of how offensive mons work these days, idk if you can really blame serperior for that one. Additionally it cant even KO some of its checks with a combo of Leaf storm + Z hyper beam, requiring an additional HP fire is just sad.

sap sipper azumarill hard counters the fuck out of serperior, while still fulfilling other roles on a stall/balanced team, and can even function as a stall breaker due to whirlpool + perish song.

as of now i feel like serperior fits in the tier and doesn't require a ban, although maybe later on things will change
 

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
#72
I don't want to be rude, but building stall without a fairy resist (the first two teams) in Azumarill UU seems really sketch. I assume Alom is your response, but it's just going to get knocked the first time it comes in, and even assuming you're running max defense Alom you get opened up to CB P Rough. All of the good stalls I've seen running around deal with Azumarill by using Alom+Fat Fairy resist+Unaware, which gives you the flexibility to deal with both BD and CB, as you can use Alom as a pivot and then work from there. You could also use Amoonguss+Unaware that would work perfectly fine too.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 223-264 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 
#73
It's hard af to build stall without losing to something. Even one of the best stalls in the sample teams thread straight up loses to the most common stallbreakers turn 1, being lucario CM chandelure and heracross. I'm not saying the guy above is wrong in their assessment, a better physically defensive backbone is necessary, but I just don't think it's even fair to judge stall at this point for losing to one thing when you are guaranteed to lose to something. I also understand that stall is about countering as much as possible, but idk when this became the RMT thread so yeah.


Serperior is something I think people aren't taking as seriously as they should. Sub seed sets are really hard to tackle and can break down all playstyles, and this set is probably one of the best at the moment for not specifically being countered by one thing aside from azumarill. Speaking of, azumarill is getting more credit than it should. The sipper set is really nice but if anything it makes serperior better because it gets rid of most of the walls that check it. I don't want to use the argument that having to run sipper azu on every team is bad, because other checks do exist, but there's really not a lot of checks that can afford to be worn down by seed + leaf storm (like most checks muk has no recovery, altaria is pressured slightly by leaf storm, etc)


It's rude of me to ask, given that unbans have literally just happened, but could breloom be unbanned and retested in the near future? It's one of the only BL mons I can't see as being broken because honestly if people dont see serperior as broken, neither is this thing. Just something to think about once we've deemed the tier as balanced and stable.
 

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
#74
Heracross only has a very small chance to 2HKO Altaria with Facade, and can never OHKO with a +2 Facade. When the best two stalls I’ve seen so far run extremely dedicated hazard control in the form of Altaria+Moltres and Xatu+Scizor respectively, it’s very difficult to chip. Heracross is definitely a threat to these teams for sure but it’s hardly a case of slap a Heracross on my team and we auto win. I agree that while SubCM or CM Taunt Chandelure will 6-0 these teams with little effort and Lucario does the same but needs to be played a decent bit better, it doesn’t get away from the fact that these Pokémon are generally pretty subpar choices in pretty much every other matchup compared to other Pokémon you could use. It’s hardly objective but Chandelure is considered B Rank while Lucario sits down in C+ whereas Azumarill is definitely a common, top tier threat. Idk I don’t really want to overreact, particularly at this early stage of the metagame but I’ve had a lot of issues breaking these teams down so far without using very niche pokemon that I consider to be compromising my matchups against other play styles but maybe that’s a problem with my mentality and not the metagame.

252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria-Mega: 150-177 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria-Mega: 300-353 (84.7 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
#75
Heracross only has a very small chance to 2HKO Altaria with Facade, and can never OHKO with a +2 Facade. When the best two stalls I’ve seen so far run extremely dedicated hazard control in the form of Altaria+Moltres and Xatu+Scizor respectively, it’s very difficult to chip. Heracross is definitely a threat to these teams for sure but it’s hardly a case of slap a Heracross on my team and we auto win. I agree that while SubCM or CM Taunt Chandelure will 6-0 these teams with little effort and Lucario does the same but needs to be played a decent bit better, it doesn’t get away from the fact that these Pokémon are generally pretty subpar choices in pretty much every other matchup compared to other Pokémon you could use. It’s hardly objective but Chandelure is considered B Rank while Lucario sits down in C+ whereas Azumarill is definitely a common, top tier threat. Idk I don’t really want to overreact, particularly at this early stage of the metagame but I’ve had a lot of issues breaking these teams down so far without using very niche pokemon that I consider to be compromising my matchups against other play styles but maybe that’s a problem with my mentality and not the metagame.

252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria-Mega: 150-177 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria-Mega: 300-353 (84.7 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ive been running adamant heracross for this reason. It doesnt really need that extra speed. It loses out on speed ties with nidoking which is never seen and jolly altaria, and chandelure i guess. Maybe something else But its mainly used to punch holes and fuck with stall so I think adamant is better