np: USUM UU Stage 5 - Obsessions (Kommonium Z and Scolipede banned from UU)

Hilomilo

High-low My-low
is a Contributor to Smogon
#76

It's rude of me to ask, given that unbans have literally just happened, but could breloom be unbanned and retested in the near future? It's one of the only BL mons I can't see as being broken because honestly if people dont see serperior as broken, neither is this thing. Just something to think about once we've deemed the tier as balanced and stable.
I don't mean to derail discussion in responding to this post, but I think that it's silly to suggest that because Serperior is legal in this metagame, Breloom should be too. Breloom is a really hot topic in the UU chat room on showdown right now, and I have fairly strong feelings about why I don't think its presence would be healthy down here at all. A lot of people are bringing it up for an unban from UU and using a similar argument, so here are my thoughts on the comparison of Serperior and Breloom, and why it isn't valid in determining the presences of both in our metagame.

Serperior was banned in UU Beta on the basis of its prowess as a lethal SubSeed user and sweeper. It had limited counterplay due to its ability to easily garner a +2 Special Attack boost through merely clicking on a 130-base power STAB attack. Its coverage options allowed it to adequately take on the vast majority of the metagame on its own while still making room for tools that could be used to cripple what few Pokemon could beat it, like Glare and Taunt. The sheer success it had through its SubSeed and sweeping sets alone caused it to warp the metagame around it due to the lack of means of reliable offensive or defensive pressure. However, as the SM UU metagame moved forward, it brought trends that favored the possibility of Serperior being healthy. Amoonguss was quickly established as a premier defensive threat, capable of stomaching even a +2 Hidden Power Fire quite easily. Alolan Muk and Mega Aggron were also introduced to the metagame and are now established as reliable means of defensively handling Serperior. Pokemon faster than Serperior that weren't previously legal, like Mega Beedrill, Mega Sceptile, and Mega Manectric, were newly introduced and are now proven to be good revenge killers to it. Pokemon that previously suffered from too many metagame trends working against them to justify using on teams without significant opportunity cost, like Moltres, Choice Scarf Chandelure, and Crobat, began benefiting from changes occurring within the tier, meaning that they had more worth than as Pokemon that merely stopped an overcentralizing force. Serperior became easier to stop due to a gradual accumulation of things working against its dominance, those things including the establishment and introduction of reliable defensive Pokemon to hold their own against it, the release of fast and reliable revenge killers to the metagame, and the drastic metagame changes that allowed already existing stops to Serperior to become worth using for more than just functioning as a semi-sturdy Serperior check. Multiple team archetypes now have some ways of dealing with it (an example being Sap Sipper Azumarill seeing increased usage on stall), and that isn't something that could have been deemed true at the time of Serperior's ban. Serperior previously required minimal team support to do its job, more or less getting the job done on its own, and now it's considerably easier building in preparation for it and you have to make a more strenuous effort to support it.

Now let's move onto Breloom, and specifically why I think it should not be let back into the metagame, especially if it's wanted back on the basis of Serperior being allowed. Breloom's ban was on the basis of the fact that both offensive and defensive checks to it were limited. Teams that didn't have a Spore switch-in were automatically disadvantaged in that Breloom could easily cripple one of their Pokemon and limit switch-ins with its offensive presence from there on out. Its STAB combo and access to moves like Bullet Seed and Mach Punch in tandem with Technician allowed for massive damage to be done to a ton of Pokemon commonly seen on offensive builds. What's more is that the few Pokemon that resisted its stab combination, like Chandelure and Latias, couldn't come in for fear of getting nailed by Technician Rock Tomb, which assuming it hits, cleanly 2HKOes Latias on the switch given that the speed drops will then allow Breloom to outrun it. Another Breloom strategy that has been more explored following its ban that would've furthered a ban argument is that it can viably run Natural Gift with a Ganlon berry to break past any of its traditional checks. Natural Gift Ice would break past all of the Pokemon that you could reasonably argue kept it from sweeping entirely, those Pokemon being Amoonguss, Celebi, Latias, and Togekiss. This was overall enough to give it the ban hammer, since it was just too much for the metagame and only really required Pursuit support to function to its full potential, that kind of support being quite easy to come by. As the SM metagame has progressed, nothing has happened that would help Breloom's unban case unless it was counteracted. Buzzwole, a Pokemon quite capable of checking Breloom, was introduced only to have been banned a few weeks later. The new defensive Pokemon that came down, such as Mega Aggron and Mega Steelix, did nothing to strengthen defensive teams' matchup against Breloom, instead worsening it. Pursuit became an even more accessible tool with Alolan Muk's entry into the tier. Newly introduced Pokemon that could reasonably stop Breloom, such as Mega Altaria, would fall victim to either Rock Tomb or the Natural Gift Ice innovation. Breloom was banned on the basis that it lacked offensive and defensive counterplay sufficient enough to prevent it from substantially contributing to a team before dying, and that fact hasn't changed.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that despite their similarity in typing, Serperior and Breloom had completely different responses to the metagame trends that occurred throughout SM, with Serperior coming out as the healthier option to release to the metagame. None of the defensive Pokemon that were introduced to the tier since these Pokemons' bans benefit their team archetype's matchup against Breloom, while doing so with Serperior instead. Many of the risen Pokemon that can now deal with Serperior, like Crobat and Moltres, can be exploited by Breloom more easily in one way or another. Supporting Serperior became more strenuous of an effort, while supporting Breloom became almost easier. Breloom's presence in the tier would, in my eyes, be as unhealthy as when it was first banned. Breloom is a Pokemon that I've heard a lot of people saying they'd like to see given a shot down here, though I don't think that any metagame trend it exploited in beta has drastically changed enough for it to do less damage than it did before. Breloom's way around pretty much any means of checking it alongside the fact that it already exerts an extreme offensive presence would not bode well for UU if it was to see an unban. I think that to ask for its reintroduction on the basis of Serperior's reintroduction is quite frankly silly when in reality, they are drastically different Pokemon with different countermeasures and effects on the metagame.

I didn't mean for this post to act as a direct response to you Machiavelli, rather one that combats the common sentiment that I see that suggests Serperior's healthiness in the metagame only means Breloom could be manageable here as well. I hope this post didn't derail discussion, because I feel as though Breloom is enough of a hot topic for so many people that something like this could be worth discussing more thoroughly. Thank you to those that took time to read this.
 
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#77
It's hard af to build stall without losing to something. Even one of the best stalls in the sample teams thread straight up loses to the most common stallbreakers turn 1, being lucario CM chandelure and heracross. I'm not saying the guy above is wrong in their assessment, a better physically defensive backbone is necessary, but I just don't think it's even fair to judge stall at this point for losing to one thing when you are guaranteed to lose to something. I also understand that stall is about countering as much as possible, but idk when this became the RMT thread so yeah.


Serperior is something I think people aren't taking as seriously as they should. Sub seed sets are really hard to tackle and can break down all playstyles, and this set is probably one of the best at the moment for not specifically being countered by one thing aside from azumarill. Speaking of, azumarill is getting more credit than it should. The sipper set is really nice but if anything it makes serperior better because it gets rid of most of the walls that check it. I don't want to use the argument that having to run sipper azu on every team is bad, because other checks do exist, but there's really not a lot of checks that can afford to be worn down by seed + leaf storm (like most checks muk has no recovery, altaria is pressured slightly by leaf storm, etc)


It's rude of me to ask, given that unbans have literally just happened, but could breloom be unbanned and retested in the near future? It's one of the only BL mons I can't see as being broken because honestly if people dont see serperior as broken, neither is this thing. Just something to think about once we've deemed the tier as balanced and stable.


I think I disagree. Both the poison heal and the technician sets can dismantle different forms of stall, and access to priority mach punch can allow it to deal with offense pretty well. Even though it's slow, the variety of sets it can have means that predicting this thing is hard without seeing a move first. Let me just remind you it gets access to spore, leech seed, substitute, mach punch, force palm, rock tomb (which can allow it to outspeed some threats. While it does have common weaknesses (in fire, 4x flying, poison, psychic, ice, fairy), if it gets a free switch in, it can really threaten.

However, I'm not sure it's that much more of a stallbreaker than azumarill, and it can be revenge killed by some pretty common mons in Altaria, Serp Z-move, heck even amoongus. I'm not even sure it's that much more powerful of a priority mon than scizor, and fighting is not the best typing right now.

The place where Breloom really shines, imo, is in dealing with bulky waters and dealing massive damage where it gets a switch-in. No bulky water wants to switch in on this. For many teams, that's the only defensive mon they have, whether it be quagsire, suicune, alom, rotom-W, etc.

There are mons that can switch-in on this thing and revenge kill it. Amoongus is the one that jumps out the most, but also mega Aggron, chandelure, togekiss, moltres.

I just don't think that's enough checks for breloom not to be broken.
 
#78
On a side note, can we get a council vote for Serperior? I feel like it's gone under the radar because of bigger threats such as Scolipede and Kommonium-Z, but it is still arguably one of the strongest threats in the current metagame and I'm not entirely convinced that it's suited for this tier.

The Z-Hyper Beam set is noteworthy as it invalidates many of Serperior's common switch-ins such as Latias and even Muk-A after some chip damage.
 
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#79
Here is a thought thats probably going to get shut down by everyone, but Ill say it anyway. I think it would be amazing if we suspected and hopefully banned unaware. Stall cant really survive without it, which is imo a very good thing. Stall is a playstyle that in many ways is similar to baton pass. By that I mean it is really easy to beat as long as you bring very specific answers to it. With baton pass all you had to do was to bring something with haze, but not alot of mons could learn it, and haze is generally a suboptimal move. Which means baton pass constrained teambuilding alot if you wanted to beat it.

In the case of stall its not as bad, but its still very annoying. Viable mons in UU that beat stall and are somewhat useful against other playstyles aswell is limited to SD heracross, NP Salazzle, Work up refresh Pidgeot, NP heal bell togekiss and if you really want a guaranteed win you could use SD Pangoro (although it sucks otherwise). Ive seen people suggesting hoopa, and I guess sub sd decidueye would be good too but honestly they are really bad. Taunt toxic gliscor, subseed serperior, cm latias and banded azumarill do well vs stall, but they will generally not win on their own unless you have a very offensive team that gives the stall user no breathing room. You can definetively make good teams while including these options, but in the long run it really puts a damper on creativity.

The reason stall players always seem to get insane amounts of points on the ladder is because people choose not to give a fuck about stall when they build, which I understand. But srsly if I just bring a team with lets say scizor with safeguard and SD darkinium Z pangoro I will ALWAYS win vs pretty much 99% of all stall variations. The team is not going to be very good ofc, but ill beat stall. My point is that stall matches are largely decided at team preview and that is uncompetitive to me. There is a reason stall does so well on the ladder, but usually fails in tournament play unless you manage to snipe someone not excpecting you to bring stall and then as a consequence maybe you are lucky with the matchup. So in conclusion im not saying stall as a playstyle is too good. It is definetively not. But it is a huge constraint on teambuilding if you want to be able to beat it.
 
#80
The reason stall players always seem to get insane amounts of points on the ladder is because people choose not to give a fuck about stall when they build, which I understand. But srsly if I just bring a team with lets say scizor with safeguard and SD darkinium Z pangoro I will ALWAYS win vs pretty much 99% of all stall variations. The team is not going to be very good ofc, but ill beat stall. My point is that stall matches are largely decided at team preview and that is uncompetitive to me. There is a reason stall does so well on the ladder, but usually fails in tournament play unless you manage to snipe someone not excpecting you to bring stall and then as a consequence maybe you are lucky with the matchup. So in conclusion im not saying stall as a playstyle is too good. It is definetively not. But it is a huge constraint on teambuilding if you want to be able to beat it.

Stall is doing great in tournaments too so actually it really is a good style, not just match up dependent. For example, it won I think 4/5 games in Snake.

Also I got an "insane" ladder ranking, over 50 points above the number 2 with VoltTurn initially, not stall, over the past week.

I would be for nerfing stall right now, but there are easier ways to do that than banning Unaware which would get many people angry. For example, unbans Xurkitree. Or use more stallbreakers like the ones you mentioned or didn't mention like Chandelure and Haxorus.


Also, consider banning Regenrator because it's it also badly benefits stall while also makes arguably unhealthy draws.

Lastly, I've made stalls without Unaware and Regenrator and destroyed the ladder with them too, so we may as well go the traditional route of just preparing more for styles you happen to be weak to.
 
#81
Stall is doing great in tournaments too so actually it really is a good style, not just match up dependent. For example, it won I think 4/5 games in Snake.

Also I got an "insane" ladder ranking, over 50 points above the number 2 with VoltTurn initially, not stall, over the past week.

I would be for nerfing stall right now, but there are easier ways to do that than banning Unaware which would get many people angry. For example, unbans Xurkitree. Or use more stallbreakers like the ones you mentioned or didn't mention like Chandelure and Haxorus.


Also, consider banning Regenrator because it's it also badly benefits stall while also makes arguably unhealthy draws.

Lastly, I've made stalls without Unaware and Regenrator and destroyed the ladder with them too, so we may as well go the traditional route of just preparing more for styles you happen to be weak to.
I have been able to make 4 good teams so far, that work well and that rarely lose to stall. So im not at all weak to stall. If anything stall match-ups are usually free wins. But now im at a loss on how to make more teams without just ending up using the same shit over and over again. Like I said, stall can be dealt with. But it invalidates alot of builds. Why excactly would banning unaware make many people angry? What kind of non stall teams do you use with quagsire or pyukumuku?? I fail to see how an unaware ban would provoke anyone but stall players.

Suggesting that banning regenerator is the same as banning unaware is just silly. Regen has alot of utility outside of stall builds
 
#82
I have been able to make 4 good teams so far, that work well and that rarely lose to stall. But now im at a loss on how to make more without just ending up using the same shit over and over again. Like I said, stall can be dealt with. But it invalidates alot of builds. Why excactly would banning unaware make many people angry? What kind of non stall teams do you use with quagsire or pyukumuku?? I fail to see how an unaware ban would provoke anyone but stall players.

Try running Nasty Plot Lucario. I lost to Giovb literally 6-7 times in a row on the ladder. I too was upset.

So I adapted and used Nasty Plot Lucario, a viable but rare Pokémon. And while I lost 2 more games because poor play, I've beaten him like 4-5 times in a row after that with my adaptation.

Nothing was invalidated. I still managed to peak number 1. It was pretty much standard VoltTurn.

It would make people angry because Smogon hates banning abilities and complex bans. To be honest I don't agree with it, which is why I said I would be fine with a regenerator ban. But there is no reason to discount the opinion of stall players.
 
#83
I have been able to make 4 good teams so far, that work well and that rarely lose to stall. So im not at all weak to stall. If anything stall match-ups are usually free wins. But now im at a loss on how to make more teams without just ending up using the same shit over and over again. Like I said, stall can be dealt with. But it invalidates alot of builds. Why excactly would banning unaware make many people angry? What kind of non stall teams do you use with quagsire or pyukumuku?? I fail to see how an unaware ban would provoke anyone but stall players.
Banning Unaware in UU would ban it in all the lower tiers as well and personally for me it's definitely not the ability that is broken in addition to the fact that on stall the only Unaware mon you'll see is Quag (at least to my knowledge). So as such I can very much see the backlash that would have. I myself have started using more lures for stuff and a few different sets that I feel are better at the minute that help with more than just the stall match-up like Z superpower Hydreigon (and life orb too but you can't bluff scarf with that) and mix-ape.

As pif mentioned above me as I was typing this, there are other mons that aren't as common that can shit like nasty plot z lucario and possibly other mons that may not have been looked at as much as they should that could work, I'm looking into trying reuniclus again (though I feel like stuff like serp, azu, hydreigon and the somewhat omnipresence of pursuit + volt turn overwhelm this too much for it have a good match up in a lot of games but maybe I'm looking on paper too much).
 
#84
Youre both right. I should make a team with np luke. I forgot about him. Thought i listed him too. After that however I feel i have exhausted all my options. Maybe I could make another team with np lucario, or another one with sd heracross? Or maybe not and just click x whenever i face stall. Because that is honestly what it is like. Use one of these 5 decent mons or lose to stall. Youre right that reuniclus is ass Draceius. I have tried it. Alo muk is its biggest downfall. It destroys stall though. Atleast on paper. I do realize an unaware ban is probably never gonna happen because it also gets banned in lower tiers, but it would be amazing if it did:)
 
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#85
There are way way way way more than just 5 stallbreakers. You listed some already and I added NP Lucario.

What about Nasty Plot Ninetales? Especially paired with Growth Venusaur? Both are insanely hard to wall.

Serperior is a top threat independent of stallbreaking ability and it too can put the bind on nearly all stall teams given some support. Either Normalium Z crushes answers like Altaria and Moltres and Togekiss while Leech Seed means Blissey is not an answer.

I've fucking lost to Grass Knot Barbaracle and Life Orb Honchkrow on the ladder with my main stall team.

You've created in your mind an image of a playstyle similar to Baton Pass - either you have an answer or you lose. While this is true to some extent, you're forgetting that there are a huge number of ways to beat stall, much more so than Baton Pass.

All this said, I still think stall is too strong right now - unlike you, where you said stall is merely uncompetitive and not too strong - and would be 100% fine with a nerf. But don't expect our tier leaders to hold our hands and baby sit us and hand us new strategies, if you are losing to stall, there plenty of options for you to use.

What I'm saying is tier changes can be organic and I'm hoping the playerbase will start using more antistall strategies.
 
#86
Good points buddy. I do want you to hold my hand a little though. Pass me that np lucario team for starters. And if you managed to make a good team with ninetales ill gladly accept that too:)
 
#87
There are way way way way more than just 5 stallbreakers. You listed some already and I added NP Lucario.

What about Nasty Plot Ninetales? Especially paired with Growth Venusaur? Both are insanely hard to wall.

Serperior is a top threat independent of stallbreaking ability and it too can put the bind on nearly all stall teams given some support. Either Normalium Z crushes answers like Altaria and Moltres and Togekiss while Leech Seed means Blissey is not an answer.

I've fucking lost to Grass Knot Barbaracle and Life Orb Honchkrow on the ladder with my main stall team.

You've created in your mind an image of a playstyle similar to Baton Pass - either you have an answer or you lose. While this is true to some extent, you're forgetting that there are a huge number of ways to beat stall, much more so than Baton Pass.

All this said, I still think stall is too strong right now - unlike you, where you said stall is merely uncompetitive and not too strong - and would be 100% fine with a nerf. But don't expect our tier leaders to hold our hands and baby sit us and hand us new strategies, if you are losing to stall, there plenty of options for you to use.

What I'm saying is tier changes can be organic and I'm hoping the playerbase will start using more antistall strategies.
not sure how i feel about trying to force a nerf to stall, however annoying it may be to face, but geezer's point of having to use ass mons/strategies is fairly valid. at least in terms of nasty plot ninetales + growth venusaur??? sun is already a niche enough play style, and using ninetales which offers 0 sun support vs using torkoal with rocks and rapid spin just????

grass knot barbaracle and honchkrow are also just like not very viable mons???? like sure u can be creative and stuff but in terms of like consistent wins thats a hard no. or at least grass knot barnacle is, i admit honchkrow can break balance too and strong sucker punches

I do think some new mons and moves (defog gliscor/klefki for ex and whirlpool azu) have made stall a lot better so maybe something needs to be done? but also not as invested as id like to be in pokemon so idk if my analysis is accurate. (also mega aggron is basically impossible to kill???? like wtf
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Aggron-Mega: 121-144 (35.2 - 41.9%)
this is sad

its also annoying bc in terms of breaking stall you'd normally try to setup and break thru, but physical setup is boned by quag, and special setup is usually handled pretty well by blissey (except for serp and i guess sub cm chandelure and nasty plot luke). UU's power level is just low enough that quag can wall most physical attackers without any boosts
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 144-169 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- 97.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

blegh ef finals
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
#88
I'm not really sure what the hate for Grass Knot Barbaracle is about when its (imo) the best last moveslot for it's Shell Smash set. Stone Edge and Liquidation already give you really good coverage and being able to get past the Water/Ground types that could wall it's STABs is really nice. Like Seismitoad has been rising steadily in usage, Swampert is still somewhat common on ladder, and so is Quagsire on stall. I'm not saying that Barbaracle is this amazing mon or anything because it isn't, but it is viable in this tier as a Shell Smash sweeper (Fits well on Veil!) that can also apparently break some stall teams now, giving it more of a niche. I don't really have an opinion on whether stall is too strong right now but I just wanted to give my two cents as a Barbaracle user on why the mon shouldn't be regarded as a meme.
 

Cynde

winter ♥
is an official Team Rateris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
#89
not sure how i feel about trying to force a nerf to stall, however annoying it may be to face, but geezer's point of having to use ass mons/strategies is fairly valid. at least in terms of nasty plot ninetales + growth venusaur??? sun is already a niche enough play style, and using ninetales which offers 0 sun support vs using torkoal with rocks and rapid spin just????

grass knot barbaracle and honchkrow are also just like not very viable mons???? like sure u can be creative and stuff but in terms of like consistent wins thats a hard no. or at least grass knot barnacle is, i admit honchkrow can break balance too and strong sucker punches

I do think some new mons and moves (defog gliscor/klefki for ex and whirlpool azu) have made stall a lot better so maybe something needs to be done? but also not as invested as id like to be in pokemon so idk if my analysis is accurate. (also mega aggron is basically impossible to kill???? like wtf
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Aggron-Mega: 121-144 (35.2 - 41.9%)
this is sad

its also annoying bc in terms of breaking stall you'd normally try to setup and break thru, but physical setup is boned by quag, and special setup is usually handled pretty well by blissey (except for serp and i guess sub cm chandelure and nasty plot luke). UU's power level is just low enough that quag can wall most physical attackers without any boosts
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 144-169 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- 97.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

blegh ef finals
i have to disagree with this because you seem to be under the assumption that pif was alluding to dedicated sun teams which he wasn't. ninetails can be used as a standalone breaker (which is ninetails' best role not sun support) with fire blast solar beam hypnosis and nasty plot with firinium z (stole the set from pearl) and has a great match up against stall as inferno overdrive does a huge amount to blissey and nothing else really wants to take boosted attacks in the sun. i stole pearl's team and replaced his muk with a venusaur just because i wanted something supplementary to sun, it's not a great mon but it has good enough bulk and typing for an offensive mon and under sun and growth enough speed and power to not be completely unusable. it's still pretty bad but i digress. don't look as sun as an archetype but rather as ninetails as a breaker (doesn't even have to be used with venusaur, it's just supplementary).

in regards to barbaracle, i think you're really under appreciating how effective it can be, i know kreme's been using barbaracle for research week and he reached like top 10 two times. it's hard to set up but not exactly impossible considering it can take advantage of choice locked pokemon and others like muk. and not hard to revenge ko since it's not the strongest but i wouldn't dismiss it. it's got grass knot to fuck with seismitoad / swampert and quagsire and good at utilising liquidation and stone edge w/ rockzium z effectively to break past some of its other would-be checks like celebi and rotom wash. while you do really have to structure an entire team around it it's not bad. i cant speak to how effective honchkrow is since i've neither seen it nor have i used it.

  • "its also annoying bc in terms of breaking stall you'd normally try to setup and break thru, but physical setup is boned by quag, and special setup is usually handled pretty well by blissey (except for serp and i guess sub cm chandelure and nasty plot luke). UU's power level is just low enough that quag can wall most physical attackers without any boosts 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 144-169 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- 97.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery"
in addition to the ones you mentioned there are pokemon like salazzle, togekiss, hoopa, mixed hydreigon, nasty plot infernape that all give stall a decent amount of grief

and i don't rly see the point in bringing up the fact that quag can wall boosting pokemon since that's literally it's job, and even then it has to watch out for z moves in the case of crawdaunt / terrakion etc.

stall is really good and, you just have to actually prepare for it properly now.
 
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