np: USUM UU Stage 6 - Chanel (Ninetales-Alola banned, see post 19)

#26
I realize Hippo doesn’t like switching in but it can at least cancel veil going up and you have Scizor (BP+Defog) I just don’t see a huge difference. Thank you for explaining though.
OU doesn't have nearly as many viable abusers of veil as UU does - BL constitutes a huge power creep and metagame threats like defensive Lando-T (especially with its 51% usage in OU) punish setup. Veil is also a 1-trick pony, and is extremely predictable from team preview. Things like Tapu Lele doing 90% to alotails and Spdef Celesteela just walling a lot of setup really hurts it too.

UU still doesn't have the level of viable defoggers as OU, and lots of these defoggers are stopped directly by Alolan-Ninetales (Gliscor, Serperior, Latias, Mantine, etc) and Scizor with Defog isn't really favoring the metagame right now, especially since Magneton can just trap and kill it if it predicts its going to defog on it.

Another big part of it is that its been tested that Aurorus + Alolan Sandslash veil was at minimum borderline broken and allowing another abuser and another turn of hail just made Veil teams even better, which is why I believe the council rightly banned it.
 
#27
I realize Hippo doesn’t like switching in but it can at least cancel veil going up and you have Scizor (BP+Defog) I just don’t see a huge difference. Thank you for explaining though.
Yes, but A-Tails can just run Hail to circumvent that and throw up Veil the next turn. Not only that, but you need an extremely favorable roll to 2hko with EQ, and that's assuming that they choked and chose to attack you instead of going for Veil after using Hail. Hippo easily checks the gimped Aurorus/A-Slash version of Veil, but A-Tails provides far too much role compression for such a threatening playstyle.
 
#28
As much as I love Ninetales in general and especially abusing it at UU with Veil but I think it is too much providing really too much for one slot unlike other Veil teams. The offensive and also supportive slot capabtability is crazy on Tales and no other Veilsetter can do those things all around. So I agree with the ban to BL even tho I love it soo much. But anyway movin onto another Archetype.

Stakataka - I think it is able to be a bit centrelazing for UU. Since TR gets a hype now since that monster dropped also comin' with it is Alolawak and these two members were in UsUm Ou already present at TR teams. Stakataka, Alolawak, Cresselia, Uxie, Crawdaunt, only missin' piece would here be Magearna, but you can splash another mon of your choice as a TR abuser.
I think Stakataka could be a bit too much for the metagame for the first sight with so many incredible and good TR setters.

Gengar - not much to say about this, could be good with specs. Has a decent coverage to check some mons and forces Mega Alataria out with a specs Sludge Wave, when Mega Altaria isnt already at +1. Can also threaten Primarina and Togekiss.

Serperior - oh maaaaa boi oh maaa boi. with Voltturn def. veeery threatening and can also kill scizor with hp fire. I hope this thing is on the radar.
 
#29
People are talking about Specs Gengar, and rightly so it's a great set, but my personal favourite set is:

Gengar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- Focus Blast

Taunt shuts down weak walls, while Will-O-Wisp cripples physical attackers. Hex has a whopping 130 BP when the foe is statused, so Gliscor can't come in - even max SpD variants are cleanly 2HKOed. Focus Blast has perfect neutral coverage with Hex, hitting the Dark and Normal-types that resist it hard. Thanks to Wisp, Alolan Muk doesn't want to come in as you can survive a Pursuit once it's burnt. This set is deadly against stall teams, so for teammates you want to bring stuff that checks HO.

252+ Atk burned Muk-Alola Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 187-222 (71.6 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
#30
People are talking about Specs Gengar, and rightly so it's a great set, but my personal favourite set is:

Gengar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- Focus Blast

Taunt shuts down weak walls, while Will-O-Wisp cripples physical attackers. Hex has a whopping 130 BP when the foe is statused, so Gliscor can't come in - even max SpD variants are cleanly 2HKOed. Focus Blast has perfect neutral coverage with Hex, hitting the Dark and Normal-types that resist it hard. Thanks to Wisp, Alolan Muk doesn't want to come in as you can survive a Pursuit once it's burnt. This set is deadly against stall teams, so for teammates you want to bring stuff that checks HO.

252+ Atk burned Muk-Alola Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 187-222 (71.6 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
i see a flaw, Muks don't run crunch, they run knock off
252+ Atk burned Muk-Alola Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 228-268 (87 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

I did the calc and you still have a chance of fainting. this is a good utility but muk isnt handled as you think it does.

I will indeed try it tho but just know, Alolan Muk doesn't run Crunch
 
#31
i see a flaw, Muks don't run crunch, they run knock off
252+ Atk burned Muk-Alola Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 228-268 (87 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

I did the calc and you still have a chance of fainting. this is a good utility but muk isnt handled as you think it does.

I will indeed try it tho but just know, Alolan Muk doesn't run Crunch
He's aware of Muk-A not running Crunch, it's just the equivalent of a 80 base power Pursuit on the calculator.
 
#33
just fucken use brick break or defog that shit anit hard
what is this in response to, ninetales is already banned???

and I haven't had a chance to play the new tier that much yet but what does trick room look like in the meta rn? I'm afraid that it'll reach a point where theres like one main structure with perhaps one swappable mon and the tier as a whole becomes a little too matchup based. is there variation in TR teams that are still viable?
 
#34
what is this in response to, ninetales is already banned???

and I haven't had a chance to play the new tier that much yet but what does trick room look like in the meta rn? I'm afraid that it'll reach a point where theres like one main structure with perhaps one swappable mon and the tier as a whole becomes a little too matchup based. is there variation in TR teams that are still viable?
Honestly, it's like when Rotom-W dropped and VoltTurn was everywhere. It has die down it the past couple of days though
 
#35
With Rotom-W moving up, Flying-types are way better. I would like to discuss a few. More of a short quick post but whatever hehe.


The king. The shifts and Alolan Ninetales' ban were so beneficial for it. With Rotom-W gone, it can pretty much spam Life Orb-boosted Brave Birds all over the place and break through a lot of stuff. It even got Superpower for Stakataka, which literally drops to it!

True; it still struggles against fast Fighting-types, such as Cobalion and Infernape... but hey, getting better!



Although not as cool as Honchkrow, Rotom-W rising up is so good for this thing. It can set up on a lot of things, such as Cobalion and Infernape that don't have Stone Edge, and its Z-Brave Bird hits hard at +2. Use this thing! >v<



I can see the Agility set, with Flyinium Z, being way more relevant now. This thing just hits really hard. With Rotom-W gone, it has such an easier time just spamming its STAB moves, especially Hurricane and just grabbing kills. With that, I can see no good reason to run Z-Solar Beam, so do us a favor and just give it Flyinium Z and get some kills!
 
#36
Sorry to burst your bubble, but I don't see what's with the whole "rotom-wash is gone" hype. The thing is, it's probably not gonna be a permanent rise. It prolly only rose because of Defog hype being strong in the start of the new meta. Once that dies down (which it basically already has), it'll be back.
Sorry but how is that even relevant? The fact remains that Rotom-W is gone at the moment, which logically makes these Flying-types more viable in the UU metagame. It doesn't matter whether Rotom-W will be back or not.
 
#37
Sorry to burst your bubble, but I don't see what's with the whole "rotom-wash is gone" hype. The thing is, it's probably not gonna be a permanent rise. It prolly only rose because of Defog hype being strong in the start of the new meta. Once that dies down (which it basically already has), it'll be back.
The NP (emphasis on **Now** Playing) thread is not supposed to be for your "theoretical metagame of the future". It's now. You can't just say that eventually when something drops it won't be good anymore because right now Rotom-W is gone, which makes Flying-types such as Honchkrow, Mega Pidgeot, and Moltres more viable in the current UU metagame. If Rotom-W drops again in the future, so be it. But thats mere speculation, and we're thinking about the current metagame so everything you said is completely irrelevant.

e: sniped
 
#38
As long as we're accepting one liners, Vincune is so underrated right now. Amoonguss which is super popular now is a horrible response without the rare Seed Bomb which can still get burned, Celebi is rare again, Serperior is super shaky without Giga Drain as a counter, plenty of Altaria are special now. Sceptile Mega has a tough or simply losing time vs you if it's a special set. And Protect stalling Trick Room is awesome. Highly recommend building with Vincune before the ladder catches on, which being the ladder, might well be never.

I know Rotom Wash obviously never beat you (and the lack of Seismitoad also helps now) but even Manectric can't win if it switches in on CM which is absolutely hilarious.

And because Vincune is amazing, if it gets popular, I bet Roar variants even with Sub will also be amazing. All in all, Suicune is top tier right now, I'd say on par with the S ranks.
 
#39
Hopefully this won’t be too short, I’m on my phone so I can’t gauge the size of this. I had feeling specs gar wouldn’t be the best set when it dropped but rather in the current meta scarf gar would be pretty splashable and from testing I’ve had a lot of success with a fairly obvious core to build around with scarf gengar, specs hydreigon and cobalion. I really recommend trying this core out and pair it with a bulky water (i chose vincune funnily enough, built it before i saw the post, nice to see i made a decent meta call) and watch it apply pressure. Even with azumarill and muk around every corner dark pulse spam from specs hydreigon is still hard for many offense teams to switch into making gengars late game cleaning job easy.
 
#40
I dont like where this vincune popularity is headed, so i suppose it's time to modify serperior:

Serperior @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Hidden Power [Fire]

This set gives serperior a chance of beating suicune, while still maintaining it's stallbreaking qualities. The more u can predict protect and use a waste move like leach seed against the protect, the better your chances are to outlast suicune. Even if u do run out of pp, suicune will be low in health due to a high number of substitutes. This enables the rest of the team to finish it off easily.
 

Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
UU Leader
#41

Hello, all.

Following the tier shifts, the council has decided to look at Azumarill and Serperior over the course of this week. These were both freed from BL alongside Scolipede following the release of USUM. While Scolipede required immediate reaction, neither Serperior nor Azumarill stood out as immediately broken, and so we determined that we would wait to see how the meta settled around them. We decided to wait until the first post-USUM tier shift before voting, as the tier shift had the potential to bring major changes to UU.

During the week, the council will be testing and discussing these two Pokemon in the post-shifts meta. On Friday we will vote to determine whether they should be banned or remain UU. Please use this thread to discuss your thoughts on these two Pokemon, as well as on the meta as a whole, in the meantime. The council is encouraged to stay active in this thread and review it regularly.

 
#42

Azumarill is a really good Pokemon in the Underused but I don't think it's unhealthy at all. It's good typing allows it to check some really good Pokemon like Hydreigon. All its sets are good (Choice Band, Sap Sipper Perish Trap or [Z-]Belly Drum) but regardless, none of them are too much for the Underused. Pokemon like Amoongus are now a staple in the tier and this kind of Pokemon can deals with Azumarill. Pokemon like Serperior or Latias can check it and threaten it back. Tbh stay it UU.


Serperior is a little bit more controversial than Azumarill but I do not think its unhealthy either. Like Azumarill, it has some really good set (Sub Seed which is its best set imo, Z-Hyperbeam, Offensive Defog or even Scarf) but does it make it broken..? Ehh I don't think so. Like I said before, Pokemon like Amoongus are staple and very common right now and really good vs Serperior. Also, the rise of Rotom-Wash in OU freed some Flying type like Moltres or Crobat which can threaten a lot Serperior (even under a sub for the last). Grass type isn't the best offensive typing and we have a lot of natural check which prevent Serperior to spam Leaf Storm (Infernape, Latias, Altaria-Mega, Scizor, Muk-Alola, Aggron-Mega etc..). Plus, Leaf Storm only has 8 PP which mean is not that much splashable (especially with the return of Pokemon like VinCune or Pressure Moltres). So, in that in mind I think Serperior can stay in UU.


Tbh, I find the actual metagame really fun. TR are really good but not broken. Even Stakataka which was feared isn't that big of a deal, people adapt to it with Swampert, Hippowdon, Aggron-Mega, Relaxed/Sassy Amoongus or event Bulletproof Kommo-O (which i really good in offensive Build vs Staka).
 

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
#43
Can I ask why stuff is still being decided by council votes? I got the system straight after USM was released, and to a degree with the recent large tier shift, as these are situations in which quick and clear decisions are required to remove obviously broken elements from the tier which is the main selling point of the system. However these two Pokemon have been in the tier for a while now, certainly longer than you would expect an obviously broken or ridiculous element to stay without being removed, so why aren’t they being tested publicly? Every other tier apart from maybe Ubers uses the council selection then public voting system, so I’m just really wondering why UU is the anomaly.
 

Jord-e

formerly ThiccTornadus
is a Pre-Contributor
#44

I think that Azumarill is completely fine, while it is very diverse between its sets, the tier deals fine with every single one of them, and adapted to them almost immediately (ie Poison Z Amoonguss). Azumarill is very effective despite there being numerous answers, but i dont think that any of its answers were shit before Azumarill arrived, aside from Vileplume maybe. It's also relatively easy to revenge kill it, due to the amount of faster pokemon and faster scarfers that are capable of taking its Aqua Jet, like Latias and Mega Sceptile, which don't take that much from a +6 Aqua Jet at all. While Azumarill may be a very threatening Pokemon i do not think it warrants a ban because of all the reasons above and thus should stay in UU.


Now, Serperior is quite a different case from Azumarill as not many Pokemon can revenge kill it, this is thanks to its amazing speed tier. It also has the coverage options that make it very hard to deal with, as almost nothing aside from a select few Pokemon can switch into a +2 Z-Hyper Beam. Z-Hyper Beam Serperior is very annoying for pretty much anything that isnt offense that has a scarfer that can deal with it, like Infernape, although it may be hard to switch in Infernape directly in fear of Glare. Its other set, SubSeed, is suited to deal with stall and playstyles alike, just like Z-Hyper Beam, but it provides a lot more utility, which allows it to bypass would be checks like Blissey(Which fails to check Z-Hyper Beam long-term however) and Non-Choice Scarf Moltres. And then there's its scarf set, which is, imo, very underrated as it's yet another way for Serperior to bypass things it'd struggle against with other sets, which is in this case offense. Seperior also has very few consistent checks, the few being Amoonguss, Sap Sipper Azumarill, and faster Pokemon(Which there are very few off, without a Choice Scarf).(SPDEF AV INFERNAPE!) Considering all these points I think that Serperior is too much and should be banned from UU.


Lycanroc-D is garbage so please just let it drop to RU.
 
Last edited:

Jord-e

formerly ThiccTornadus
is a Pre-Contributor
#46
Serp isn't that big of a threat......
but on the otherside with Rotom-W gone azu has become a prominent threat in tier.
Serperior is in fact a big threat and while the rise of Rotom-W has made Azumarill better, it hasn't made Azumarill broken, as it can still be dealt with, unlike Serperior, which has ways around a large majority of its "checks and counters". I do not deny that Azumarill is a prominent threat but it isnt broken.
 
#47
Can I ask why stuff is still being decided by council votes? I got the system straight after USM was released, and to a degree with the recent large tier shift, as these are situations in which quick and clear decisions are required to remove obviously broken elements from the tier which is the main selling point of the system. However these two Pokemon have been in the tier for a while now, certainly longer than you would expect an obviously broken or ridiculous element to stay without being removed, so why aren’t they being tested publicly? Every other tier apart from maybe Ubers uses the council selection then public voting system, so I’m just really wondering why UU is the anomaly.
Because the public test system everyone's been using and UU has used in the past has some major flaws. The one thing that makes that system "good" is the main problem with it: everyone can vote, as long as they have free time and decent level of skills. The system isn't for the top, knowledgeable players, it's for the people who can grind on the ladder. The general opinion of the "top players" (ie: the ones actively playing the tier in the highest levels of competition available) regularly differs from the opinion of the general public and the biggest example of this was in the Mega Latias vote, in which it got banned by a huge 73% majority despite the fact most top players were against the ban.

Being pro-Latias ban doesn't mean "we" consider you bad, in fact Manipulative was pro-ban and he got council after the vote, but after reading the NP thread and other UU areas it was pretty damn evident that most pro-ban voters had no idea of what they were talking about. I mean shit, in the thread we had people saying "if you don't prepare for Latias, it's likely you lose it" as a pro ban argument. This tiering decision was the last drop; we decided to start focusing on the highest level of UU play and balance the tier around that.

We decided to stop using a system that neglects top players and rewards free time. We have discussed about making public reqs significantly harder, even if it means only having 7-10 voters qualifying that way, and let "top players" vote based on their merits, but finding a good balance and objective standards is important so this still is a WIP. Whenever we have a revamped system ready we'll start using it, but it's a complex subject that requires lots of discussion.

Council votes are also flawed, we know this, but they are much easier to closely monitor. This isn't PR friendly, nice or fair. We are doing what we think is the best for the tier.
 
Last edited:

Euphonos

stains every heart that he uses to heal the pain
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
#48
mfw you can use Mega Altaria to steal all the boosts accumulated by Serperior's Contrary-boosted Leaf Storms (and Azumarill's Belly Drum boosts, too!)

Anyway, allow me to mention my opinions on the matter - one Pokemon that I have made at least two teams with, and another that I have yet to unravel its potential.

Azumarill describes the former; it is one of the most splashable Pokemon in the tier. Its not-so-shabby 100/80/80 defenses allows Azumarill to run a Belly Drum set and Perish Trapping, among others, consistently. However, there are a lot of Pokemon that would take care of Azumarill fairly well and from the looks of the metagame trends nowadays, people have found a lot of creative yet effective answers against Azumarill (note: Volcanion is one of them that made it rise to B in the Viability Rankings lately); therefore Azumarill doesn't pose anything unhealthy to the metagame, hence I'd like Azumarill to stay.

While I didn't manage to build a team off Serperior yet, but from my experience in encountering Serperior in most ladder battles, it's when firing a Leaf Storm after Serperior comes in at a right time that makes this Pokemon worth looking for. Slapping in a consistent answer against Serperior could be a rather daunting task (Mega Altaria is considered one of the soft checks, but Power Swap makes it more of a counter than anything else!), since even the most consistent of answers should have to tread carefully against either of the following: Z-(Wring Out/Hyper Beam), Glare, Subtitute and Leech Seed, among others. Since I don't have a rather strong opinion whether to keep Serperior in UU or not, I'll leave it to the council, but I assure that Serperior is a threat worth preparing for.
 

eaglehawk

once known as smogon gay baby #4
#49
Because the public test system everyone's been using and UU has used in the past has some major flaws. The one thing that makes that system "good" is the main problem with it: everyone can vote, as long as they have free time and decent level of skills. The system isn't for the top, knowledgeable players, it's for the people who can grind on the ladder. The general opinion of the "top players" (ie: the ones actively playing the tier in the highest levels of competition available) regularly differs from the opinion of the general public and the biggest example of this was in the Mega Latias vote, in which it got banned by a huge 73% majority despite the fact most top players were against the ban.

Being pro-Latias ban doesn't mean "we" consider you bad, in fact Manipulative was pro-ban and he got council after the vote, but after reading the NP thread and other UU areas it was pretty damn evident that most pro-ban voters had no idea of what they were talking about. I mean shit, in the thread we had people saying "if you don't prepare for Latias, it's likely you lose it" as a pro ban argument. This tiering decision was the last drop; we decided to start focusing on the highest level of UU play and balance the tier around that.

We decided to stop using a system that neglects top players and rewards free time. We have discussed about making public reqs significantly harder, even if it means only having 7-10 voters qualifying that way, and let "top players" vote based on their merits, but finding a good balance and objective standards is important so this still is a WIP. Whenever we have a revamped system ready we'll start using it, but it's a complex subject that requires lots of discussion.

Council votes are also flawed, we know this, but they are much easier to closely monitor. This isn't PR friendly, nice or fair. We are doing what we think is the best for the tier.
Nothing but Kokoloko shills. I thought tournament players (i.e. top players) were already given a free vote if they were playing in UU tournaments (correct me if I'm wrong).

One thing you have to understand that Smogon and the whole tiering system is built around community contribution, and eschewing the community in such tiering decisions is antithetical. Although suspect testing does take a lot of time, many suspect tests enforce strict requirements that guarantee that the top players will be voting, not just some randoms.

Furthermore, the example of Mega Latias only highlights the tier leader's failings of leading the discussion. Active participation in discussion and providing counterarguments from you or other council members would've helped shift the narrative on Mega Latias. There's no need to punish the playerbase for doing something they're supposed to do. If you really wanted to counterargue that Mega Latias ban, why not reply to the dissenters directly in the NP thread?
 
Last edited:
#50
Because the public test system everyone's been using and UU has used in the past has some major flaws. The one thing that makes that system "good" is the main problem with it: everyone can vote, as long as they have free time and decent level of skills. The system isn't for the top, knowledgeable players, it's for the people who can grind on the ladder. The general opinion of the "top players" (ie: the ones actively playing the tier in the highest levels of competition available) regularly differs from the opinion of the general public and the biggest example of this was in the Mega Latias vote, in which it got banned by a huge 73% majority despite the fact most top players were against the ban.

Being pro-Latias ban doesn't mean "we" consider you bad, in fact Manipulative was pro-ban and he got council after the vote, but after reading the NP thread and other UU areas it was pretty damn evident that most pro-ban voters had no idea of what they were talking about. I mean shit, in the thread we had people saying "if you don't prepare for Latias, it's likely you lose it" as a pro ban argument. This tiering decision was the last drop; we decided to start focusing on the highest level of UU play and balance the tier around that.

We decided to stop using a system that neglects top players and rewards free time. We have discussed about making public reqs significantly harder, even if it means only having 7-10 voters qualifying that way, and let "top players" vote based on their merits, but finding a good balance and objective standards is important so this still is a WIP. Whenever we have a revamped system ready we'll start using it, but it's a complex subject that requires lots of discussion.

.

This is entirely subjective. In the vote for m-lati, several high-level SPL/snake players, trophy winners, and TCs voted do not ban. 6 of the current UU players in SPL voted, with the vote evenly split between ban and do not ban. You have to have a decent level of competence to obtain reqs, and if you're actually voting then you're both knowledgeable and care about the state of the metagame. 56 people voted on m-lati, a small fraction of the hundreds of people that play UU and are actively invested in the meta. Just because people you deem marginally worse than you have different opinions doesn't mean that those opinions are inherently wrong.

I'd be all for raising the gxe bar to 80 or 85 with tests, but discounting suspects entirely isn't conducive to to creating a metagame that represents what competent players want.

As a side note, some arguments in the discussion threads for suspects are legitimately asinine, but the people with uninformed opinions typically aren't the ones voting.
 
Last edited: