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NP: UU - Silent Night
- Thread starter reachzero
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I was just thinking about a bulkier spread as well, actually. I would probably use a spread of 108 HP / 252 SpA / 148 Spe, which hits 233 Speed (1 more than Jolly Torterra).
basically the main Pokemon you guaranteed miss out on are Absol and Feraligatr. unfortunately, Venusaur is a decent check to SD variants of both, so that might be something to watch out for before you just blindly switch the spread. obviously there's the base 80 issue as well but it was never a sure thing in the first place so it's not TOO big a deal in terms of team building.
it's not like putting bulk on Venusaur is anything new; I remember jamashawalker posting a bulky Special LO Venusaur set way back when Roserade was still UU. I haven't tested it either but the theory is sound... extra bulk sounds like it would come in useful against random Close Combat / Surf / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt / Shadow Ball pretty often. if the 232 HP Scoopapa posted does something specific like surviving LO Milotic's attacks... well I guess you'll still have to look out for LO Milotic if you use 108 HP. but in terms of "general all-purpose bulk" I think the lowered HP does the job just fine.
the lowest I would go on Venusaur is 92 Speed which hits 219, which beats Jolly Aggron.
basically the main Pokemon you guaranteed miss out on are Absol and Feraligatr. unfortunately, Venusaur is a decent check to SD variants of both, so that might be something to watch out for before you just blindly switch the spread. obviously there's the base 80 issue as well but it was never a sure thing in the first place so it's not TOO big a deal in terms of team building.
it's not like putting bulk on Venusaur is anything new; I remember jamashawalker posting a bulky Special LO Venusaur set way back when Roserade was still UU. I haven't tested it either but the theory is sound... extra bulk sounds like it would come in useful against random Close Combat / Surf / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt / Shadow Ball pretty often. if the 232 HP Scoopapa posted does something specific like surviving LO Milotic's attacks... well I guess you'll still have to look out for LO Milotic if you use 108 HP. but in terms of "general all-purpose bulk" I think the lowered HP does the job just fine.
the lowest I would go on Venusaur is 92 Speed which hits 219, which beats Jolly Aggron.
How come nobody has mentioned Azumarill (during this Milotic discussion that's popped up!)? The SubPunch set can just set up unbreakable subs in Milotic's face, unless Milotic carries HP Grass (and then it just flat out loses to Venusaur...). Azu can then Focus Punch Milotic, or Encore Recover! It's not useless outside of that either, making a good revenge killer for Fires and weakened pokes.
I'll add that if you're bringing in a sweeper after a KO, there are far deadlier choices than offensive Milotic, e.g. Thund's Modest LO Alakazam.
I'm not convinced Milotic is BL. Sure, it can run vastly different sets, but the sets are distinguishable (checking for Leftovers recovery is easiest) and even with Life Orb Milotic isn't a very strong sweeper. After the surprise wears off - and there are Pokemon that can wall both offensive and defensive Milotic, such as Clefable - offensive Milotic is vulnerable to getting swept by more powerful sweepers, such as Mismagius.
Nonetheless Milotic is one of the most reliable walls in the tier, capable of checking a vast number of Pokemon. It certainly deserves its popularity, although it doesn't deserve to be BL.
Azumarill CAN learn Encore actually, although as far as I know very few Azumarill actually use it.
The reason Encore isn't seen on Azumarill is because it's illegal with Aqua Jet, and for such a slow Pokemon the priority is far more helpful than a base 50 speed Encore.
Azumarill is hardly a good check for Milotic. It's not going to 2HKO the standard set unless it runs Choice Band, in which case it shouldn't try to switch in a fire off an extremely obvious Return/Double-Edge. And also as bad ass mentioned in the last page the best Milotic is Surf/HP Grass/Haze/Recover so all Azumarill is going to do against Milotic is sit there and jerk off and then die. A moveset of Sub/Focus Punch/Encore/Aqua Jet with max speed could theoretically work against Milo but that's just retarded.
Edit: well I guess you can't even run that moveset.
Edit: well I guess you can't even run that moveset.
That's exactly what I meant =P
0_o woah I didn't think Azu could learn it... Very surprising lol
I figured that since I have never seen anyone use it it could not learn it. But since it is illegal with AJ that makes perfect sense =P
Ok so you know how everyone is complaining about Milotic, yes I'm sure you do. Well, most teams who run Milotic as a wall mainly have it as a glue to check threats, mainly powerful Fire Types. I'd like to point out that Magmortar this metagame is devistatingly good against Milotic. You can scout its switch by using Substitute, and then after SR, Thunderbolt 2HKOs the standard 252 HP variant as long as you have an expert belt or higher boosting item. It is also good to use an Expert Belt because Magmortar bluffs choice sets so easily.
After their Milotic is eliminated or at 50% if they decided to switch, it will be much easier to dispose of Milotic's main partners, Venusaur, Registeel, and Weezing because the Fire resist is long gone or severely injured. This leaves things like NP Houndoom or Sub SD/DD Gatr cause lots of havoc, especially with Spikes support.
Seriously, though, think about it... All the hype was about Moltres not too long ago, and Magmortar has the same SpA stat, enough speed to do what it needs to do (83) and Thunderbolt, not to mention it is only 2* weak to SR.
Encore and Aqua jet aren't illegal on Azumarill because I am able to use it on Shoddy (maybe it isnt programmed).
You can still use some illegal movesets. I've been abusing Scrappy + Wish Kangaskhan at the moment. <___<
Except I couldn't abuse Reckless + Double Edge Hitmonlee. Fail. >_>
That is true, and I agree that those qualities are very great on any Pokemon, but that doesn't make Magmortar useless. Being able to 2HKO and fire type's main switch in is awesome. Plus, its ability is arguably better. It can also go mixed to bait it Chansey and 2HKO with cross chop
If we don't consider any Grass-type a to be perfect counters for Milotic, we shouldn't consider just that set when talking about Azumarill, either. Besides, the July stats show Ice Beam as more popular, by a 22.9% margin. Running Venusaur / Toxicroak alongside that Azumarill will allow you to cover most Milotic pretty easily, and it's not exactly hard or costly to scout Milotic for it's moveset. Offensive Water + Grass combos are good at dealing with Milotic's various movesets in general. Really what Azumarill does is back up your team's Grass-type. Obviously you still need something to deal with HP Grass, but if you don't think putting a Grass-type on your on your team is enough to write off defensive Milotic, Azumarill is a decent consideration for a parter. It's not like it isn't a good pokemon otherwise; it's actually very useful.
You bring up a good point here, and it's that people are arguing that Milotic can beat her grass-type switchins with Ice Beam. If your team's primary way of beating grass-types is with something like LO Milotic, then you're probably not going to be very successful. Milotic's best use right now is obviously as a wall and 'glue' that not many pokes can break through. Is anybody going to use a Power Herb Moltres with max Attack and Sky Attack so it can break through Chansey? Obviously not. While offensive Milotic isn't as extreme as that example, it's the same concept. You can argue that grass-types can't switch into Milotic, or you can argue that Milotic walls half the metagame. You can't have it both ways when trying to prove Milotic is BL since the two sets are extremely different.
Also, Ice Beam being more popular doesn't make it better than the aforementioned set. What is a defensive Milotic going to do with Ice Beam? It catches Venu on the switch for ~40%, then has to switch out in fear of Sleep Powder or Leaf Storm. Venu can even just Synthesis on the switch, and you have done basically nothing at all. Ice Beam is obviously going to be very useful on the offensive sets, but it has no business on the defensive set since Milotic has no business trying to muscle past grass-types when it's basically trying to wall and beat everything except them.
I agree with your other points. Azumarill is a good pokemon. My earlier post was in response to someone saying that Azumarill would be a good switchin/check to Milo, which is obviously fallacious.
Houndoom just got in and is about to Fire Blast your ass.
This is where theory falls down - theoretically yes you could just Synthesis, but the situation could present 'better' alternatives, or even force you down one route.
Houndoom just got in and ate a Sleep Powder, then Venusaur used Synthesis as Houndoom fled in fear of taking 60% from Sludge Bomb. Yeah I can play this game too. Finally, try (and I mean just try, it's not like Pokémon is a game of prediction you know) not to switch into the very move that hurts Venusaur, and instead try to bait a Surf. Not that hard to do!
So it's later in the game when something's been slept and the situation arises again.
My point is not "don't be stupid", it's that the ideal situation is unlikely to occur due to other factors in the game (teammates, hazards, hax even).
I never said it was useless, just that the other Fire-type Pokemon are better than it. If you really hate Milotic go ahead and run a Magmortar (which doesn't even beat Calm versions), but other than that all the other Fire-types in the tier perform better than it.
The most used sets are the most used for a reason. Even though you're probably going to want Haze for the odd CM/Curse user, Toxic is an all-purpose weapon for other walls, most of which you'd otherwise have to PP/critical hit stall. Either way Haze being the best move on the fourth moveslot is subject to debate and depends entirely on your team.
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