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np: UU Stage 10 - Suspect Test Round 1 - Let it Snow

Discussion in 'BW UU' started by kokoloko, Nov 3, 2012.

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  1. Bent1ey

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    Pretty interesting, I'm wondering if the results would've been the same if Abomasnow was actually around, specially considering that it may be dropping from OU one of these months...

    I agree that the baning of Snow Cloak and the reliable fighting types in the tier played a huge type in weakening the archtype, so this vote seems like a nice consensus to see. Will we see more toxic spikes and Walrein in the near future or will hailstall vanish into oblivion? I'm eager to see how it goes...
  2. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    This is an interesting point - if Abomasnow ever comes down to UU and end up causing problems, we can simply ban it rather than weather to keep status quo / preserve a playstyle.
  3. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    Tbh I don't believe Abomasnow alone would break hail if / when it drops.
  4. Turtle Soup

    Turtle Soup

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    I think Abomasnow would be fine in UU, cause with Snover I don't think we will be seeing many hail teams while with Abomasnow it could be much more prevalent however it probably wouldn't cause a problem. Actually there are currently a couple of OU mons that imo could fit quite nicely in to UU without causing an upset.
  5. JirachiCelebiMew

    JirachiCelebiMew

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    With Hail unbanned, is it unbanned in the lower tiers (RU and NU) too?
  6. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    I'm not sure, but I'm convinced that it is, because Snover is currently PU, so it is most likely allowed there as well.

    EDIT: It is allowed in RU and NU as well.
  7. JirachiCelebiMew

    JirachiCelebiMew

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    Actually, it's not in NU. :P I checked.
  8. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    It is now. We decided in Policy Review (which everyone should be able to see).
  9. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    Oh my god

    I am so sorry, RU / NU.
  10. Kayo

    Kayo

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    Hey guys, first time "Post-er" long time player. You guys might have seen me in PS with this name. If you see me on I am usually playing NU 9/10 times.


    Now I completely understand the unbanning of Snover in the UU tier with the loss of Aboma and Snowcloak. In UU with his pathetic stats he basically sets up Snow and then dies out.


    In NU's case however things are much different. With the unbanning of permasnow in the lower tiers I have seen the rise of "Level 1 Sand Aron" type gameplay, but now it's focus around snow. Today battling in NU I have encountered 4 straight battles where people have abused Magic Coat and Endeavor to their liking. People using Level 1 Cleffa Clefairy & Solosis all on the same team spamming MG & Endeavor.

    To my point, as Flare said NU and RU might not be ready for permanent weather. Vulpix is not allowed in NU and we all know where Politoed is. The fact that people can spam Magic Guard with ease will cause a huge usage turn in Snover's Favor. I predict a huge increase in popularity and a possible rebanning of Snover in at least the NU tier.

    And hey, the considered worst Rotom now might also get a huge upgrade with usage with 100% Blizzard. But hey what can I say. He seems likes a, wait for it, (Puts on Sunglasses) Cool Addition to any team.
  11. hilarious

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    As much as I am disappointed by the decision to unban hail I am even more surprised by the reasoning. Not only did the vast majority of the paragraphs gloss over the fact stallrein alone can hammer hyper offensive teams, an entire play style, I don't think even once was there a mention of how easy it is to make a cookie cutter hail stall team (Snover/Walrein/Nidoqueen/Blastoise/Froslass/Filler) which cuts down on skill level on the ladder at least and encourages less diversity. Seriously I've seen at least 3 variations of that stall team not including my own...

    But its not like anything is going to be done about that.

    What do you all think of CM Aura Sphere Raikou? It can basically bypass Umbreon as a counter and defensive Snorlax (you'll have to hit offensive lax on the switch to not die instantly). It pretty badly messes with hail stall if you use hp ice and if you manage to weaken their Nidoqueen/Snover a little.

    Also I have been using Scolipede like in 5 battles and its really cool when paired up with Heracross...its SD set is like insanely fast although I think Weavile might pair better with Heracross. But still OHKOing Mew before a boost? yes plz! so use more scolipede C:
  12. Ace Emerald

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    I won't speak for all voters, but because I think an implied question deserves an answer, I'll post why I disagree with the specifics of this post. That cookie cutter stall team has a major flaw: the passive damage that makes it a possibility simultaneously cripples it. Take for example, the increasingly common duo of Scarf Mienshao and SD Heracross. Nidoqueen and maybe Froslass are the only Pokemon between that team and serious SD Cross trouble. Those are also they only Pokemon between this team and a Scarf Mienshao sweep. Froslass is OHKOed by Stone Edge if it's the offensive variant, and the defensive variant can't even 2HKO Heracross with Blizzard. Nidoqueen will never restore HP. Taking 25%-30% from HJK is nice, but that means Nidoqueens switch-in's are limited. Severally, as after just two switch-in's, Nidoqueen is KO'd by +2 Heracross. And this isn't even counting Chandelure, which can tear this team a new one pretty easily. Or offensive Snorlax, which can take pretty much anything from this team, and dish out nice damage. Or Mew, which can be really dangerous if Froslass is defensive (but Sucker Punch makes that moot for an SD set). I'm not arguing that this team can't beat the Pokemon I've outlined. It could if it was played smart. But that's exactly it, it requires good playing, not the mindless clicking you insinuate it takes. Furthermore, in my opinion anyways, spamming cookie cutter Hail Stall is no more annoying that spamming the cookie cutter balance teams that have cropped up. I know the situations aren't exactly parallel (Hail Stall revolves around one Pokemon, where the balance teams revolved around ~10), but honestly they are pretty similar. Just as those ~10 Pokemon that always show up on balance teams can do a lot more, Hail is by no means restricted to just Hail Stall. I haven't experienced/seen anything that convinces me Hail requires an excessive strain on teambuilding or stagnates the metagame any more than any other playstyle that is good.
  13. hilarious

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    That's strange I thought I was subtle enough to get a free verbal strike against the unban decision without being called out on it.

    Ok Ace Emerald all your points are 100% true but you missed the point I was trying to make because I wasn't clear. it doesn't matter to me if hail stall is broken in the sense that its way too good it matters to me in the sense i see a bunch of hail stall teams polluting the ladder even if they do suck and its because snow warning is allowed in UU.

    Also i am still annoyed Walrein can easily destroy 5/6 or 6/6 of a standard ho team by itself, since when should one pokemon be able to beat a playstyle -.-
  14. Bent1ey

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    Well, since Prankster arrived Sableye is one nasty thorn in Baton Pass Chains/Stall teams in general, so there is a precedent of sorts.
  15. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    This just in:

    Wonder Skin, in addition to blocking status inducing moves such as Will-O-Wisp and Thunder Wave 50% of the time, also blocks moves such as Roar and Taunt 50% of the time.

    What this means for UU: Venomoth is even better now.

    Discuss.
  16. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    What the hell, are you serious?

    Well shit, there goes one of the best methods of checking BP Venmoth. Venomoth is broken in UU, people just aren't abusing it for some reason, which is fine i'm not mocking you anyone who doesn't use it, it's just happened to slip under the radar for some reason. The loss of Tinted Lens is barely even that big of a deal since you aren't using Venomoth to sweep anyway.

    :<
  17. silenced

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    It is better, certainly, with wonder skin, but there still lies a problem in the timing of the pass. Whirlwind and roar still get rid of the BP recipient unless you feel inclined to pass to Xatu for some reason. Being able to have a decent chance of blocking taunt/sleep/paralysis is nice.

    Its certainly an improvement, but i'm not sure it is that game breaking, especially if you are sacrficing the (pseudo) coverage tinted lens gives you.
  18. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    I guess you missed the part where I said:

    This means Whirlwind is blocked too. That's kinda the whole point of the post.
  19. hilarious

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    blastoise comes in venemoth already slept something decides to go and pass oh shit blastoise just used roar on the recipient gg
  20. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    why would you baton pass out of an awake blastoise switching into a venomoth

    thats like the dumbest thing ive heard this week, what else is blastoise going to do to a +1 or +2 venomoth...scald it? just bug buzz the blastoise and you have a pretty decent shot of them not being able to phaze you out
  21. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    Not to mention why are you even setting up if Blastoise is out of Bug Buzz KO range and/or you can't Sleep it? I mean the whole thing with Wonder Skin is that is essentially gives you a much higher chance of shitting on phazers even if Sleep Powder misses.

    -__-

    Anyway, Mew vote is done, read about it here.

    Discuss.
  22. silenced

    silenced

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    I realised that, but the point was the recipient of the boosts is phazed out, not venomoth itself, which I would rather think is the point of non-tinted lens venomoth baton passing.
  23. kokoloko

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    Your post was very unclear, js. Anyway, the idea behind Wonder Skin is essentially what kd24 said--you can now just stay in and have a good shot and not losing your boosts while you just kill Blastoise or do enough damage to it so that it can't stop you next time.

    It also gives you a better chance to get away with a Sleep Powder miss and things of that sort.
  24. PK Gaming

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    Glad to see that every council member voted dnb on Mew. I'm pretty sure it wasn't going to get banned anyway, but its refreshing to see that every council voter was on the same page :d

    Anyway, the issue with WS Venomoth is that common phazers now have a chance of failing when attempting to remove Venomoth, which translates to a free hit per miss for Venomoth. If you get unlucky and miss multiple times, you risk losing the match straight up! That's bullshit. Now I realize that phazers aren't exactly common (all the more reason why I think Venomoth shits on BW UU), the fact they can now get screwed over by Venomoth is aggravating. Wonder Skin also trolls taunt users, but I can't think of many outside of support Mew.

    koko edit: you can set up on froslass now lol

    PK edit: I knew I was forgetting something.
  25. DetroitLolcat

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    Mew staying UU wasn't much of a surprise. It's definitely a great, unpredictable Pokemon, but it can be revenged easily regardless of the set it's running and has some Speed issues.

    Nasty Plot Mew is one of the best Special attackers in the tier because of its insane movepool, but 100 Special Attack scares no one when you're spamming 90-95 power moves. Plus, almost every revenge killer in the game can stop this Mew since UU's revenge killers often use Sucker Punch or Megahorn as attacks. Nasty Plot Mew is nice in that with a little damage it can destroy defensive teams, but it struggles against offense, gets revenged easily, etc.

    Swords Dance Mew is arguably the best set in my opinion. SD Mew gets priority, bulk, a way to boost its stats, and decent Speed for a Physical sweeper. Unlike NP Mew, which commonly carries Leftovers to offset the lack of reliable recovery, SD Mew can step it up a notch with Life Orb. Unfortunately, that power boost is pretty negligible when your two reliable attacks are Zen Headbutt and a non-STAB Drain Punch. Sucker Punch is what makes SD Mew the best set in my opinion. If you can wear opponents down, SD Mew becomes an obnoxiously good cleaner. Heracross, Honchkrow, and Hitmontop may be able to defeat a Mew normally, but if you can wear them down to 30, 40% or so, then Mew isn't afraid of them anymore. Drain Punch's recovery is also great because if an opponent's Pokemon is at 40% or so, chances are that a Drain Punch will KO them at +2. If that's true, then you can forego the shaky Zen Headbutt and reclaim 20% of you health with a Drain Punch.

    Baton Pass Mew is exactly what it says on the tin: a more versatile, less threatening Venomoth. Venomoth is by far the best Baton Passer in the tier because it can pass Quiver Dances. Meanwhile, Baton Pass Mew needs multiple turns to pass (Special) Attack boosts and Speed Boosts, giving the opponent two turns to react to the Mew user's strategy. On the other hand, Venomoth just QD's up for a turn, passes to Togekiss, and watches as Togekiss cleans up even the most prepared teams. Baton Pass Mew is nice because it can use two attack moves while Venomoth can only use one, but Venomoth can put people to sleep and choose one of two gruesome abilities to facilitate its passing.

    If Mew was packing 110 or 120 Attack/SpA stats with that movepool, it'd be in the BL tier right now. However, Mew just isn't tough enough to bring UU to its knees.


    Speaking of Venomoth, by God is it a good Pokemon. Venomoth+Togekiss is the most lethal BP chain in the game right now (eat your heart out, Nidoking). Togekiss' great coverage with Aura Sphere+Air Slash makes it an utter beast at +1/+1. Add in the Special Defense boost and it's practically invulnerable to Special attacks. Venomoth's Wonder Skin makes even teams prepared to counter it fail half the time, while Tinted Lens lets Venomoth flex its muscles at those who want to kill it before it can pass.

    how is it still bl2 smh...
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