1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

np: UU Stage 11 - Apocalypse Please

Discussion in 'BW UU' started by kokoloko, Jan 2, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Past SPL Winner
    UU Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    3,507
    Ah!

    It seems everyone's favorite nigh-unbreakable special wall has come back down for another round in UU, and to make things even better, so has papa tree!

    Will they be suspected quickly like most people have theorized? And if so, will they be banned? Nobody knows, but I sure am disappointed the world didn't end when it was supposed to so that we could avert this disaster!

    Oh well, let's try to make the best of it... but really, apocalypse pls!

    That is all.
  2. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Past SPL Winner
    UU Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    3,507
    A couple notes:
    • I'm open to a quick-suspect of both of the new drops, but not a quick-ban, we'll work out the logistics of it if/when enough people seem to want them suspected.
    • I'm extending the deadline to apply for the council by 24 hours, so the new deadline is tonight at 11:59 PM EST. We're adding at least two people for sure, but it could be up to four. Seriously, if you want to get in, this is probably as good a shot as you're going to get.
  3. JabbaTheGriffin

    JabbaTheGriffin Stormblessed
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2007
    Messages:
    3,030
    Kill me now. I'd support a quick suspecting of at least Chansey, considering that most people who play the tier have already had extensive experience with the pain in the ass blob.

    This is going to rehash some arguments I was never really fond of taking part in. I don't think Chansey is as easy to set up on as some people will have you think (taunt/sd cobalion and subcm ghost mons are pretty much the only Pokemon that can do it for free) while I think anything that tanks all but STAB close combats is absolutely terrible for the tier.
  4. superbadd

    superbadd

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2012
    Messages:
    351
    I think chansey much actually be fine. Between hail and the new slew of fighting types entering the tier, it's not going to be as easy for the pink blob to do whatever it wants. Between the stall breakers, (mew, crobat, sableye) the new fighting types like scrafty who can set up on the blob due to shed skin, and Nasty plot mew and togekiss, I think uu might actually be fine. Things have changed A LOT since the last time chansey was here. This is a good time to make full stall viable in uu, it has been riddled with offense for so long. A good comparison might be cresselia for ru. Although there are key differences.

    Chansey

    -No offensive presence
    -Vulnerability to all entry hazards
    -Taunt bait
    -predictable
    -weak to common fighting attacks
    -dependent on eviolite
    -better movepool
    -nice ability to heal off status upon switching
    -great recovery in either soft boil or wish
    -aids teamates very well
    -walls 90% of special attackers and even some physical attackers

    Cresselia

    -Great ability in levitate allowing it to dodge spikes(toxic)
    -Can be offensive with Calm mind and decent movepool
    -Has magic coat to avoid taunt
    -shit recovery and difficulty with status
    -walls almost the entire tier it was in
    -awful defensive typing with little resistances
    -4mss

    Idk, it'll be interesting to see how this turns out.
  5. Ernesto

    Ernesto is a motionless pedophile
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2012
    Messages:
    555
    OK I'd already said it in the last usage stats and in Antar's newest thread, but I don't care at all for a Gligar/Chansey core. It's SkarmBliss from ADV OU with less offensive presence and much more annoyance, having like 3 counters in the entire tier. I'm all for quick suspecting, especially since I wasn't here last time the pink blob was UU so I can't really share the popular hatred more than from theorymonning.

    Abomasnow, on the other hand, I don't think calls for a quick suspect, since it's not that great outside of setting up Hail (and I could see it being of good use as an offensive check to many threats with its E Belt set), but since most reasons given for Hail unbanning were that using Snover was a big liability, that might not be the general consensus now.
    Anyway, if we're going to suspect Chansey we'll be able to see how other things fare in the metagame, and then decide if it's the only thing that will be voted on.

    @ superbadd: I may be wrong, but stallbreakers already existed last time Chansey was UU, and it was still bashed from all sides. Hell, Mew was also there at the time, if I'm not mistaken... And I don't know if Scrafty and Mienshao can really change that—even if they're the few Fighting-types that have ways of beating Gligar one on one.
  6. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,153
    Dang

    Stick a fork in me and call me done. Chansey ruins the hell out of UU, it basically cripples the competitive effectiveness of practically every special sweeper in the tier(which is a good chunk of them! UU is home to a lot of special attackers) and even good chunk of the physical ones. The physical attackers that CAN counter it are all wrecked by Thunder Wave; really, I hate it when people suggest that Chansey is easily counterable or that its setup fodder because it makes anything that switches into it utterly useless. On the upside, stall becomes 300% more viable, but I don't think that's worth having to endure with Chansey. You'd better get your spikers & fighters ready, because you're going to need them for Chansey. I'm definitely going to be pushing for a ban since its a cancer in our tier that arbitrarily makes the game worse.

    EDIT:

    Oh yeah, Abomasnow. Completely forgot about you. I don't know about the rest of you, but Abomasnow is a great Pokemon on its own. It's not a tool for hail like Snover, its an actual threat that needs to be considered. I guess i'll just wait and see...
  7. TPO3

    TPO3 Never practice; Always perform.

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2009
    Messages:
    419
    Quick suspecting the pink blob would be great. Scrafty and Mienshao may not have existed back then, but Heracross still did. The fact that Chansey can tank a Heracross's Close Combat is ridiculous.

    Comparing Chansey to Cresselia isn't really a fair comparison, Chansey is just so much better as a special wall, while Cresselia is more of a mixed wall with a potential to sweep. They do different things. Chansey has 2 great recovery moves in Softboiled and Wish, and it can pass 350+ HP Wishes to all of its teammates. Chansey can set up Stealth Rock, be a cleric, or use Thunder Wave/Toxic, and has a reliable damaging move in Seismic Toss (which is very reliable in UU. There's only 3 Pokemon with anything higher than base 100 HP, and there's MAYBE 3 Pokemon with base 100 that actually use Substitute.) It's a special wall that's all about the team. Cresselia has great mixed defenses, much better mixed defensive typing and mixed defensive stats (as well as Levitate.), and a potential to sweep with Substitute + Calm Mind. The two mons to two really different things.

    I would like to see how Abomasnow pans out. I definitely think hail teams got much much better, but I don't think Aboma is worthy of a quick suspsect. It might turn out to be broken, but I think it should be proved first.
  8. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,160
    Wow, Hail stall sure got a nice boost from the drops to UU. It will be interesting to see how this pans out.

    Also, I'm not sure Chansey is as much of a threat as you guys are making it out to be. Pretty much anything with Magic Guard + CM + Recover or Substitute + Boosting move + 101 HP Subs (Meloetta, everyone!) or Boosting move + Resttalk beats it. It's also set up fodder for many spikestackers, offensive physical Pokemon, or anything with Taunt (especially Gligar).
  9. Diatom

    Diatom An enigma
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2012
    Messages:
    159
    Goodbye for now UU. Until Chansey gets out of the tier, I will not play.

    Heck, Chansey walls literally every special attacker, including ones with focus blast such as Zoroark. It also walls any physical attacker without a STAB fighting-type move, and all of those except for Mienshao can be hard walled by Gligar, although Chansey can just paralyze Mienshao on the switch, making it useless. The fact that it can, along with Gligar, literally wall 99% of the tier and paralyze the other 1% makes it so overpowered that I don't have any words to describe it. Bye.
  10. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,153
    The only non-OU magic guarders are Clefable, Siglyph and Solosis. Of those 3, Clefable & Siglyph are just barely usable (Solosis just isn't usable period) and somewhat team dependant. OTOH, I can see myself actually using them to take on Chansey but you have to admit these Pokemon are niche options at best. I disagree with you on your 101 Sub comment; how many 101 Sub boosters exist in UU? And how many of them want to switch into a Toxic or a Thunder Wave? The only think that comes to mind is SubSeed Shaymin (who was pretty much one of the only viable Special Attackers in the Chansey meta). Most of the sub users in UU have less than 100 Base HP, or aren't willing to invest in that much HP(they might with Chansey :/). As for running restalk to beat Chansey, idk, it's never been a reliable strategy for me to use in UU (outside of Suicune), and even Chansey won't change that. You're correct in saying that Chansey being fodder for Spike stackers, but is that really such a bad thing? Most UU teams have Pokemon that are fodder for spikestackers; it's no big deal if Chansey invites spikers to set up on it since it happens to be the best fucking special wall in the tier. Physical Attackers aren't a hard check to Chansey; as i've mentioned before, the only physical attackers that can switch in and force Chansey out are Fighting-types and they're all crippled by Thunder Wave. Taunt will probably end up being a popular move option on anything that can get their hands on it.

    The way I see it, with Chansey UU you can say goodbye to pretty much every Special Attacker in the tier, save the lucky few that can bypass it or happen to Zapdos, because even if something like Giratina came down to UU Zapdos would STILL be good. It probably won't reflect on the ladder (since people STILL don't use Mew on the ladder) but you can bet your ass it'll be relevant in tournament play.
  11. superbadd

    superbadd

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2012
    Messages:
    351
    Shouldn't we play this meta before we jump to conclusions? How long has it been seen chansey was uu, like a year? In all honesty I don't care if chansey fucks over raikou, chandelure, or venomoth, those guys are borderline broken to begin with. Anyway, we should just wait and play before jumping the gun. But I do agree, a quick suspect may be needed for chansey. Not too sure about abomasnow, though. He's weak to a lot of the common attacking types in uu, has medicore offenses with no way of boosting them, and it has that pititful speed stat.
  12. Mazz

    Mazz UU's Workhorse
    is a Contributor Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    987
    I ran a bunch of calculations just to show how much of a defensive nightmare Chansey can be. These calculations are assuming Chansey is running 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD with a Bold Nature (as it should be).

    [​IMG]
    Heracross (open)
    Heracross (Scarf) vs. Chansey:
    252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 72.02% - 84.8% [2 hits to KO]
    252 +1 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 107.81% - 126.99% [Guaranteed OHKO]

    Heracross (Band) vs. Chansey:
    252 Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 107.81% - 126.99% [Guaranteed OHKO]
    Heracross (Guts w/ no status) vs. Chansey:
    252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 72.02% - 84.8% [2 hits to KO]
    Heracross (Guts w/ status) vs. Chansey:
    252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 107.81% - 126.99% [Guaranteed OHKO]

    [​IMG]
    Mienshao (open)
    Mienshao (LO) vs Chansey:
    252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Hi Jump Kick vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 101.42% - 119.32% [Guaranteed OHKO]
    Mienshao (Scarf) vs Chansey:
    252 Atk Mienshao Hi Jump Kick vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 77.98% - 92.05% [2 hits to KO]

    [​IMG]
    Scrafty (open)
    DD Scrafty vs Chansey:
    252 Atk Scrafty Drain Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 36.22% - 42.61% [3 hits to KO]
    252 +1 Atk Scrafty Drain Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 53.69% - 63.49% [2 hits to KO]
    252 +2 Atk Scrafty Drain Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 72.02% - 84.8% [2 hits to KO]
    252 +3 Atk Scrafty Drain Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 89.49% - 105.68% [37.5% chance to OHKO]
    252 Atk Scrafty Hi Jump Kick vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 62.64% - 73.72% [2 hits to KO]
    252 +1 Atk Scrafty Hi Jump Kick vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 93.32% - 109.94% [56.25% chance to OHKO]

    BU Scrafty vs. Chansey:
    4 Atk Scrafty Drain Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 28.12% - 33.24% [4 hits to KO]
    4 +1 Atk Scrafty Drain Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 42.19% - 49.86% [3 hits to KO]
    4 +2 Atk Scrafty Drain Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 55.82% - 66.05% [2 hits to KO]
    4 +3 Atk Scrafty Drain Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 69.89% - 82.24% [2 hits to KO]
    4 +4 Atk Scrafty Drain Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 83.95% - 98.86% [2 hits to KO]
    4 +5 Atk Scrafty Drain Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 97.59% - 115.06% [81.25% chance to OHKO]

    [​IMG]
    Cobalion (open)
    Cobalion vs. Chansey:
    252 Atk Life Orb Cobalion Close Combat vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 74.57% - 87.78% [2 hits to KO]
    252 +2 Atk Life Orb Cobalion Close Combat vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 149.15% - 175.57% [Guaranteed OHKO]

    [​IMG]
    Virizion (open)
    Virizion vs. Chansey:
    252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Close Combat vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 74.57% - 87.78% [2 hits to KO]
    252 +2 Atk Life Orb Virizion Close Combat vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 149.15% - 175.57% [Guaranteed OHKO]

    [​IMG]
    Hitmontop (open)
    Hitmontop vs. Chansey:
    0 Atk Hitmontop Close Combat vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 46.45% - 54.97% [2-3 hits to KO]

    [​IMG]
    Machamp (open)
    Machamp vs Chansey:
    252 Atk Machamp (+Atk) DynamicPunch vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 67.33% - 79.69% [2 hits to KO]


    This first group of calculations highlights the "effectiveness" of the plethora of Fighting-type Pokemon found in the arsenal of Underused. Many common sets, such as Scarf Heracross, Scarf Mienshao, and DD Scrafty fail to OHKO Chansey without any boosts. For something with such a shallow defence stat, it holds up surprisingly well against what should in fact knock it off the face of the Earth. Albeit many of it's survived hits leave it with only about 25%HP, it still leaves Chansey room to abuse Thunder Wave, crippling the likes of Heraross and Mienshao. It's a rather scary thought when even the Fighting-types can't cleanly remove Chansey without Stealth Rock and a layer or two of Spikes.

    [​IMG]
    Darmanitan (open)
    Darmanitan (Life Orb) vs. Chansey
    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 66.05% - 77.7% [2 hits to KO]
    Darmanitan (Choice Scarf) vs. Chansey
    252 Atk Darmanitan (+Atk) Superpower vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 57.1% - 67.33% [2 hits to KO]

    [​IMG]
    Rhyperior (open)
    Rhyperior vs. Chansey
    252 Atk Choice Band Rhyperior (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 53.41% - 63.07% [2 hits to KO]


    I also decided to run a few calculations using the two nukes in the tier, Darmanitan and Rhyperior. One would figure that a base 140 Attack stat would be more than enough to swiftly break through Chansey, but big surprise, they don't. What scares the hell out of me is that LO Darmanitan can only 2HKO Chansey with Flare Blitz, which is a feat that few of the bulky Water-types can claim.

    If Chansey is capable of bringing that much bulk to the table, I'd say that it's more than fair to quick-suspect the blob. It effectively neuters all Special Attackers and is capable of crippling a plethora of Pokemon due to its survivability. Despite the rebirth of Hail in UU, I'm almost certain the 6.25% residual damage won't change the fact that Chansey is one bulky-as-fuck motherfucker and will force the tier to become overly offensive. It'll lead to more centralization of the metagame, with 2 or 3 Fighting-types per team becoming a common sight (which is just terrible). God damn, this thing is bulky.

    And regarding Abomasnow, I believe it'll fit in nicely here in UUnow that Kyurem's gone. Its got really bad typing and is just too slow to pose as much of a threat. Anything to bring Rotom-F to UU :D
  13. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2007
    Messages:
    5,412
    When were council applications open before now? I didn't see anywhere.

    Abomasnow won't break Hail, in my opinion. It wasn't an otherwise unbeatable play style except for Snover. It'll be much better now, obviously, but I don't see how the Grass / Ice lead getting higher stats is what pushes it over the edge.

    Insta-suspect Chansey, though, in my opinion. Lets handle this shit one at a time.
  14. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,580
    shit is looking interesting in UU - hopefully we can seal Chansey's fate once and for all

    Also let's still keep our eyes on Wonder Skin Venomoth - not quite sure where I stand with Venomoth and its new buff, but it's certainly a lot more annoying now ;/
  15. Organization Member XIV

    Organization Member XIV

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2012
    Messages:
    669
    Well, I know who I'm gonna be abusing in UU. Bye P2, we'll see you later (maybe.) Seriously though, I did NOT think Chansey would be able to take a Scarf Heracross's CC. But yeah, I can see Gligar and Chansey basically becoming a staple on every team. One of the only things that can really stop Chansey is Trick Chandelure, which might see a rise in usage now. Waiting for obligatory Chansey discussion thread to be started.
  16. oSeasons

    oSeasons
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2012
    Messages:
    121
    People claiming that uu is filled with fighting types are forgetting that we always have the option to SWITCH OUT to another poke to sustain our chansey. Gligar is probably the perfect partner for Chansey as it walls nearly all physical threats other than Mienshao. (Assuming that it runs HP ice)
  17. Squidsauce

    Squidsauce

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2012
    Messages:
    48
    Fuck Chansey. Maybe now people will realize that every LO Mienshao without HP ice is a complete waste of time.
  18. Notty

    Notty

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2007
    Messages:
    135
    Hail teams are going to get more popular without Snover being a lodestone around their neck, and Chansey is going to be everywhere walling special attackers for eternity with her infinite fatness.

    Fantastic. [​IMG]
  19. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2012
    Messages:
    493
    I've heard some people saying that DD/BU Scrafty will find a new niche thanks to Chansey, as it can set up on Chansey's face thanks to Shed Skin, and can KO Gligar with Ice Punch. Scrafty has had a lot of trouble fitting into UU since it dropped, so anything to give it a niche is cool with me, I suppose.

    Chansey's fulky as buck, but I'm interested to see if she alone can slow done the extremely offensive nature of the UU tier.
  20. W_M

    W_M

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2011
    Messages:
    77
    I think we have to wait. The meta is not like the last time than Chansey was here. In three or four weeks you could consider a suspect with "Eviolite+Chansey" if it is necessary. I think Chansey is good for stall style and the diversity about play styles in UU.

    Abomasnow, there will be not problems with it.

    Excuse my english. ;D
  21. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2007
    Messages:
    5,412
    I don't think complex banning a single item on a single pokemon is really an option we should consider. Not only is it unprecedented, it's not fundamentally different from the "would mew be broken without nasty plot?" style argument.
  22. kniteowl

    kniteowl

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2010
    Messages:
    342
    ^ well the Baton Pass + Shelll Smash complex ban exist in RU and below which affects 2 pokemon, that the closest thing I can think of. But I'm happy with either ban.
  23. Salem1

    Salem1

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2008
    Messages:
    171
    I like Chansey coming down to UU if only because it might make people think about how to play beyond ''Heracross used Close Combat'' and I think people reacting so negatively offers a great view of how sterile the tier has become. As far as I can see, this is just a standard reaction to anything that can't be immediately dealt with by mons and sets that are already ''overused'' in the tier.

    I personally will just give HP ice/ice punch to my banded trick Metagross if this prophesied Gligar+Chansey core gives me any problems.
  24. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2012
    Messages:
    493
    Metagross is OU.

    Still, I welcome Chansey to UU. This is a good chance for some lesser used 'mons (Scrafty) to shine.
  25. Salem1

    Salem1

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2008
    Messages:
    171
    Oh yes. I've spent too long on PO's server.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)