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np: UU Stage 12 - A Beautiful Lie

Discussion in 'BW UU' started by kokoloko, Apr 2, 2013.

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  1. kokoloko

    kokoloko &McMeghan: chef koko seasoning his games with some salt
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    After a whole month of anticipating the drops of Haxorus and Reuniclus from OU, we got... nothing. However, most of us (the sane ones, anyway) are breathing a sigh of relief at this fact because its very likely these two would have ruined the state of perfect balance our metagame is in at the moment. So yeah, I'd call that A Beautiful Lie.

    Discuss.

    That is all.
  2. Vileman

    Vileman

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    The metagame at the moment it's very awesome, im very glad to see that both of the mentioned pokemons didn't dropped, they would be a pain to handle. It's actually really cool that atm nothing its over centralizing the tier, so there is a lot of variety and a lot of cool pokes to use, not like in OU where weather its like, everything.(Only mention is that most teams NEED a snorlax due to chandy/raikou/etc but whatever)
  3. PTJon7

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    I am positive Haxorus would not work in UU, its just too powerful. Reuniclus however, I find interesting. To be honest I can't imagine it would be too terribly overpowered in UU, but I could be wrong. There's a pretty low number of bulky special attackers in the tier, and Reuniclus would also be an amazing aid to Trick Room in the tier.
  4. Mazz

    Mazz Retired
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    Life Orb Reuniclus is stupidly powerful. Here's some relevant calcs:

    252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 259-305 (49.42 - 58.2%) -- 64.45% chance to 2HKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 99-118 (26.47 - 31.55%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 121-142 (29.95 - 35.14%) -- guaranteed 4HKO


    Looking at those alone, Reuniclus just blasts through the tier. Its immunity to status, weather, and its ability to switch-in on the plethora of Fighting-types in the tier make it nigh unbeatable. Reuniclus is no defensive slouch either. Here's more calcs:

    252+ Atk Krookodile Crunch vs. 192 HP / 64 Def Reuniclus: 312-368 (76.28 - 89.97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Scrafty Crunch vs. 192 HP / 64 Def Reuniclus: 236-282 (57.7 - 68.94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 192 HP / 64 Def Reuniclus: 286-337 (69.92 - 82.39%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


    I dunno about you, but the power and bulk that Reuniclus brings to the tier is utter poison. Slap some Trick Room on this fucker, and it doesn't have a solid check throughout the whole tier.
  5. PTJon7

    PTJon7

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    Fair enough, you've got me convinced. Magic Guard would only further increase its usefulness in UU.
  6. kokoloko

    kokoloko &McMeghan: chef koko seasoning his games with some salt
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    yeah it's not like we have mew, meloetta, escavalier, sableye, slowking, and a shitton of pokemon who hit REALLY fucking hard in uu or anything.

    i honestly don't think reuniclus would have been as much of a problem as you're making it out to be. would it have been a great pokemon? definitely. would it have been broken? maybe. definitely nowhere near as devastating as some people seem to think though.
  7. Nas

    Nas real
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    Am I the only one who is disappointed that we didn't get either drops? ._.

    Not that it matters now, but I think that Reuniclus was over-hyped and I highly doubt it would have been broken. It's really strong and has an amazing ability, but it suffers from the same shitty typing as Mew, which offers it few free turns to set up. (unlike Cofagrigus) There are also plenty of checks to TR + 3 attacks Reunic, so it's hardly "unbeatable." In fact I bet that Calm Mind would have ended up being one of the better sets, but I guess we won't get to find out. :(
  8. Upstart

    Upstart Copy Cat

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    I honestly couldn't agree more. Reuniclus would be good but just as Mienshao before it, Reuniclus would fit in the heavy hitting metagame.

    Haxorus on the other hand, I find it hard to believe he would be fit into UU. However, I would enjoy giving him a fair test, well at least until I get haxorecked enough times.
  9. Godsend

    Godsend

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    I can't think of anything in the tier that can switch into Haxorus. The few steel types in UU and below are either grounded or have Levitate, making them vulnerable to EQ. That said, I'm always down for the test of a seemingly broken pokemon. Maybe next time...
  10. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    We definitely dodged a bullet, thanks Arceus.

    Haxorus is probably (definitely) broken in UU, but I also think Reuniclus will end up being broken too. Remember, we're talking about a Pokemon that was almost banned in BW OU(I know I can't use this evidence... but shit, it was so strong back in the day). It took an absurdly powerful metagame shift AND Jirachi's existence to stop Reuniclus from running all over BW OU metagame.

    CM Reuniclus is probably unbeatable in BW UU with the right support.
  11. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    I'm not as well versed in UU as I am in NU, but given Musharna, a pokemon with similiar bulk which suffers from status without Heal Bell and Dark-types without a coverage move, still does fantastically well in NU, I can only imagine what it would take to stop a Reuniclus effectively. (Sableye fares poorly against boosted hits)
  12. Squidsauce

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    This is a radical proposition, but could it be possible to suspect snorlax? In the same way chandelure could have been (I still argue it's broken) restrictive on team building, so too could snorlax. It's perhaps more corollary to the meta 1 year ago where roserade had too much leverage, and was too good in UU.

    Without snorlax, ALL other specially defensive walls will become more useful. Umbreon, swampert, roserade, p2, slowking, etc. Right now, it's pretty damn hard to justify using any of them over snorlax, and using snorlax + another is lost opportunity cost. The curse set is also very hard to deal with, if we want to make an argument that it's broken offensively as well.

    And if you make the argument that certain pokemon become broken with the leaving of snorlax, then I think it's somewhat safe to say that said pokemon is broken in the first place if the exit of one wall causes it to be broken. That's my 2 cents anyways
  13. kokoloko

    kokoloko &McMeghan: chef koko seasoning his games with some salt
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    Snorlax is barely even thought of as a special wall nowadays, as most good players use it in a primarily offensive role.

    For the record, Umbreon is not only viable, but really good atm. It's crazy how much of a difference Foul Play makes.
  14. Godsend

    Godsend

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    Foul Play is amazing. Even fighters that resist it take a huge chunk due to their incredible attack stats. Due to Foul Play, I lower the attack IV on all special attackers to 0, just to take as little damage as possible. It amazes me when I see people using Pay Back on Umby lol
  15. Metal Sonic

    Metal Sonic Turn it up!
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    Haxorus is definitely not allowed in UU... it is bad. IT is devastating. It can Destroy all steel types in UU with Earthquake(Mold Breaker neutralises Bronzong), with Outrage loving neutral coverage on everything else. DDance set is Game-winning sweeper and Choice Band set is a strong hard-hitter


    Reuniclus would have been devastating for the Tier thanks to its supreme bulk, coupled with one of the most OP abilities in the game with magic guard. In fact I think Alakazam went from UU to OU thanks to that ability. Offensive abilities have been proven by the above calcs; an extremely powerful Psyshock STAB + Focus Blast is arguably more utile than Raikou, yet having moreamounts of power( Tbolt vs Psyshock; not forgetting Life Orb) Reuniclus can tear through Snorlax which Raikou cannot even think of doing.

    CM Reuniclus would not be so scary, until we realise Magic Guard prevents Toxics and Burns and even Hazard damage.

    If Raikou is S rank, Reuniclus would definitely be SS+ Rank, thansk to its superior typing and most definitely ability, and Psyshock


    EDIT: Pardon, I realised some flaws in my argument. Reuniclus is considerably slower than Raikou, however it has the boon of abusing Life Orb's negated recoil, not unlike Darmanitan or Nidoking. As a result, nothing can switch in safely(barring predicted type immunities) into Reuniclus with a Life Orb, and thus Reuniclus if in UU would be bad for UU
  16. exotic

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    electric is by far the better typing, mew would also be broken if it had another typing. Psychic is one of the worst typing in uu imo. Also, Alakazam wasn't considered broken in uu, if I remember this correctly. It was just that a lot of people started to use it in ou.

    When does metagross drop? I want it in uu. DO NOT USE METAGROSS IN OU!!!
  17. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    I'm really liking UU right now, nothing's too broken and it's really fun. Thank goodness Haxorus is stuck in his rightful place in OU, but anyways. Here are some stuff I really like using in UU right now.

    [​IMG]

    Scrafty (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Shed Skin
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Drain Punch
    - Crunch
    - Taunt

    I found this set while lurking the PO forums. Anyways, aside from the fact that Scrafty is one of my favorite Pokemon (it kinda conflicts with Mesprit for my fave Poke overall, but back to my topic), I gave this set a shot and it's pretty damn good. This set serves as a pretty solid stallbreaker that has great sweeping potential thanks to coverage and DD. Scrafty can Taunt a lot of Stall teams, while this and Shed Skin make Scrafty less vulnerable to status. From there, Scrafty can set up DD multiple times and smash a lot of things with its awesome coverage in Drain Punch and Crunch. A lot of defensive Pokemon despise this thing, including the rare defensive variants of Snorlax and Cofagrigus, Umbreon, Spiker Roserade, Dusclops (lol), Claydol, Registeel, and to a lesser extent Qwilfish. Scrafty can also stop Bisharp from grabbing SD boosts. Scrafty, after some boosts, can threaten teams pretty easily and is hard to switch into except for Heracross, who is getting less relevant, and Hitmontop and Gligar, who aren't very good Pokemon to begin with. SubCM Cress works well with this too, but eh. Anyways, pretty solid thing in this meta that I really like using.

    Here's a pretty legit core that I've been using lately as well.

    [​IMG]

    Magneton @ Eviolite
    Trait: Magnet Pull
    EVs: 212 HP / 120 SpA / 136 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Substitute
    - Magnet Rise
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    [​IMG]

    Druddigon @ Choice Band
    Trait: Mold Breaker
    EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 100 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake
    - Sucker Punch
    - Dragon Claw

    From the RU tier, these two make a pretty legit core in UU (MagneDrudd is good in RU too, but back to the topic). Magneton can trap Bronzong, the most common Steel-type in the tier, with a SubRise set that cannot be touched by Bronzong while wearing it down with repeated Thunderbolts. This thing also wears down Bisharp, Empoleon, and Escavalier pretty easily. Registeel and Cobalion handle this thing well but Thunderbolt does enough to make them ineffective. That said, once those are out of the way thanks to Magneton, Druddigon can be just plain absurd with a CB set; especially with Spikes, almost nothing in UU will enjoy an Outrage from this monster of a Pokemon. Druddigon has a nice defensive typing as well, shitting on Darmanitan+Roserade cores and the likes. EQ is just coverage while Sucker Punch nails Victini and Azelf and picks off weakened opponents. Druddigon also has nice resistances making it a nice Zapdos check while taking on Darmanitan+Roserade cores. Overall I really like using these two and they make for a legit core.

    Just some thoughts on cool stuff in this meta.
  18. PTJon7

    PTJon7

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    I agree with ScraftyIsTheBest, UU has reached a really good balance. One thing I find extremely interesting is the large amount of high ranked stall teams in UU. 3 (or 2 I'm not positive) of the players currently in the top 5 run stall, and even more stall players are residing in the top 15. I personally find this to be awesome, its proof of the balanced nature of the tier and that any play style can achieve results if you're good enough.

    In regards to your MagneDrudd (awesome name btw) core why not just run a CB Flygon instead? While Druddigon has the superior bulk and power it is quite slow, I would think Flygon's far superior speed would make up for the loss in damage.
  19. kokoloko

    kokoloko &McMeghan: chef koko seasoning his games with some salt
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    Stall has always been an extremely easy way to climb the ladder, due to the fact that a large majority of inexperienced players have trouble playing against it. It's really easy to make a team that gets wrecked by stall if you're not careful, and even when you're not necessarily "weak" to it, a single misplay can wreck you (not doing a double switch when you need to or mistiming one are the biggest culprits).

    The issue with stall isn't that it can't climb ladders--it actually excels at that--it's that it can't hope to perform consistently in a tier where shit like SD Heracross, NP/SD Mew, Togekiss, Crobat, Sableye, LO Darmanitan, Victini, Chandelure, etc, etc... all reside. If it gets a nice matchup, then it will win, but there are too many matchups that it just won't win against for my liking.

    It's never been "unviable", just suckish.

    That isn't an actual problem, though. UU has reached its ideal state imo, so unless there's some really fucked up drops in the last tier shift, this is the metagame we're staying with. There could be an issue with Dream World abilities being released after XY's release that could fuck with the tier; I'm thinking mostly of Chandelure and Feraligatr, but the former is an obvious insta-ban and the latter probably won't change much, so I'm not too worried.
  20. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    Mienshao

    Having arrived in the tier in the transition from BW1 to BW2, Mienshao has become one of, if not the best Pokemon in UU imo, and I doubt anything will take its place in that name for a long time. Mienshao is an extremely potent offensive threat with its high Attack and absurd STAB Hi Jump Kick, and its access to U-turn makes it relatively hard to play around, allowing it to scout switch-ins such as Nidoqueen and Cofagrigus and hence resort to a proper teammate (Krookodile and Weavile come to mind). Anyone who's played UU probably knows what makes Mienshao so good in this metagame. My favorite Mienshao set so far is the Scarf one; it's the absolute best revenge killer because it outpaces everything in the metagame, hits absurdly hard, and scouts very well. I see some other effective sets though, such as SubPass (I'm intrigued to try this some day, anyone ever used it?), All-Out Attacker, and SD.

    Here's the set I'm using right now:

    Show Hide
    Mienshao @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    Hasty Nature
    - Hi Jump Kick
    - Stone Edge
    - U-turn
    - Hidden Power [Ice]


    So in a nutshell, what Mienshao set do you use? What impact do you think Mienshao's presence in the tier have on the metagame? What are Mienshao's best teammates, and most of all, what do you use to deal with Mienshao? (it's an absolute top threat in UU for sure!)

    Spikes and Stealth Rock

    Much like in RU, entry hazards are stupidly good in the UU metagame imo. Spikes is an awesome hazard, especially with the increasing popularity of Froslass and Qwilfish. The "Big Three" of Spiking is probably Froslass, Roserade, and Qwilfish, and all of them are very good Pokemon; Froslass makes an awesome lead that can spike, prevent setup, and take down an opponent or two. Roserade is a nice offensive threat that also makes for a defensive backbone to come in on Scald and Sableye, while Qwilfish checks all the physical Fighting and Fire-types running rampant, such as Mienshao, Victini, Darmanitan, Heracross, and a bunch of others. Spikes are just so ridiculously good right now, since they wear down teams and are the cornerstone of both stall and offense. The other thing worth noting is that UU is pretty dry on good spinners outside of Blastoise, and he himself is mediocre outside of spinning while Claydol and Hitmontop suck. Stealth Rock is also pretty good imo, particularly with the large number of viable users of it in the tier such as the ever manly and mighty Azelf, as well as Bronzong, Rhyperior, and Cobalion, which are all pretty good and Stealth Rock is one of the best moves in the game in general. Entry hazards are just so good right now imo, especially with the many viable users and the lack of viable spinners.
  21. PTJon7

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    Mienshao sure is a dominating force in UU currently, by far the best Fighting type in UU.
    For a long time I didn't understand why anyone would use Reckless over Regenerator, but Reckless turns a whole lotta 2HKOs into OHKOs, which is extremely important. Aerial Ace is literally only for Heracross, and I guess Virizion. Mienshao is just such a good revenge killer and cleaner its astounding. Is there any real chance of it getting suspect tested? Just wondering really, but I certainly don't see any reason for it to be.

    Entry hazards sure are a big part of UU right now, especially with the general shift away from rapid spinners on a lot of teams. My favorite spiker at the moment is this Roserade set:
    The speed EVs enable Roserade to outspeed uninvested base 100s, but I honestly don't know if they're that necessary. This thing can switch into bulky water types and walls all day thanks to it's pretty decent bulk and access to Synthesis and Giga Drain.

    What is everyone else's favorite entry hazard user currently?
  22. Explorer

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    A few pieces of feedback:

    ScraftIsTheBeast: Your core sounds really interesting on paper, but I don't see Magneton being too useful outside of trapping on Bronzong since most threats that it beats 1 on 1 such as Blastoise will just switch out. Also Magnezone has no recovery, and with the prominence of Spikes and presence of Substitute, that could be a problem. Druddigon also has no recovery and so I would suggest a Pokemon with Wish, and the only viable option I can think of is Specially Defensive Gallade (the on-site set), since Clefable has poor synergy.

    Also, I have another Scrafty set to share that has earned me more ragequits than any other Pokemon in competitive battling:

    Scrafty (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Shed Skin
    EVs: 252 HP/4 Def/252 SpD
    Nature: Careful
    -Bulk Up
    -Dragon Tail
    -Rest
    -Drain Punch

    Obviously this is best with hazards (on the particular team I used the Spikes Froslass as a lead). Bulk Up brings up the not-as-good physical defense, and also bulks up Scrafty's attack. Dragon Tail allows Scrafty to phaze pretty effectively (at +1 Def Scrafty is almost impossible to OHKO). Rest and Shed Skin let Scrafty do this over and over again until the opponent crits, phazes, or loses. Drain Punch is the most natural STAB since this set is designed to last as long as possible, and serves as a backup source of recovery in the event where using Rest is too risky. I suggest testing this as part of a defensive core with the standard Spikes Froslass (the synergization with Roserade is decent but slightly inferior).

    Here is a replay of where Scrafty gets me out of a sticky situation:

    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-19094544
  23. EonADS

    EonADS

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    Dear lord, we dodged a full-blown artillery barrage with Haxorus staying in OU, not just a bullet. Jolly SD Haxorus with Life Orb, using a set of Outrage/EQ/Aqua Tail/SD OHKO's every UU Pokemon without hazards at +2, save for Max/Max Impish Registeel (92.03 - 108.51%; 50/50 shot at an OHKO with EQ even without hazards, Superpower OHKOs outright, as does Adamant EQ), and Max/Max Impish Eviolite Porygon2 (76.47 - 90.64% with +2 LO Jolly Outrage; Superpower is a guaranteed OHKO). Bronzong too, if you're using Superpower (71.59 - 84.31% with +2 Jolly LO Superpower), though you could easily get away with a set of Outrage/EQ/Superpower/SD and still be just fine due to Haxorus' stupidly high Attack stat.

    The only viable UU Pokemon that isn't weak to anything Haxorus has is Escavalier. Well, Max/Max Impish Escavalier is 2HKO'd... by +2 Outrage (56.39 - 66.56%). So even with the only Steel-type not weak to Superpower or EQ, you still lose. The only . Pokemon that can avoid its boosts is Quagsire; and Max/Max Impish Quag is 2HKO'd by +0 Outrage (56.85 - 67.25%). So basically, nothing can switch into it, nothing can stop its boosts, and nothing can survive once it's set up.

    tl;dr, Haxorus would be so broken.

    But anyway, enough about that.

    In speaking of Scrafty, I tried a set that FlareBlitz suggested in the last discussion thread, CB Intimidate Scrafty. Frankly, I loved it. Great typing, powerful dual STABs, good coverage, and the ability to recover some health with Drain Punch doesn't hurt either. It works so well with Frosslass too, so that's another plus. Seriously guys, give it a try.
  24. silenced

    silenced

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    Just wanted to say thanks to you PTJon7 for that roserade spread. While I'm finding the loss of bulk on my old roserade a bit more difficult to deal with, I am loving the power and use of spikes again (though at times I have missed toxic spikes/sleep powder).

    One thing I'd like to promote is Physically Defensive Zapdos. While people have been using zapdos to blast holes left right and centre, I have been loving it's bulk and typing to tank quite a fair bit, especially heracross. Being SR weak is a pain, especially since I refuse to use a spinner with it, but I have been loving surviving even LO + SF Darmanitan rockslides. It just feels like the MVP of my team at present.

    Suppose I should post my set.
    Zapdos @ Lefties
    Bold 192 HP, 228 Def, 60 SpA, 28 Spe.
    IV's 2 Atk, 30 Def
    -Thunderbolt
    -HP Ice
    -Roost
    -Roar

    I'm still tinkering with EV's and moveset (I can't believe I've ignored discharge now that I think of it), but I've been finding this set so useful to phaze mons given it's bulk and ability to tank attacks while racking up hazard damage (which is especially helpful to set up a scarfgon sweep). 28 spe I believe outruns standard chandelure speed EV spreads according to the speed tier discussion, while most is jammed into defensive bulk. The 60 SpA EV's I'm not sure of anymore...I think I used them to have made sure to OHKO SR setting empoleon, but I haven't been able to check since Kalashnikov went down.
  25. SOMALIA

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