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np: UU Stage 13 - Ghosts N Stuff

Discussion in 'BW UU' started by kokoloko, Jul 7, 2013.

  1. PTJon7

    PTJon7

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    Yea it is very true that you can get the Struggle KO on Froslass, but then you're stuck using a 50 BP move with 25% recoil while the other person can bring in whatever they want and you're forced to switch.
  2. CoolStoryBrobat

    CoolStoryBrobat The hero Smogon needs, but not the one it deserves
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    Well from my experience I'm pretty shifted toward agreeing with ya on that. The physical sets never gave me TOO much trouble (Band V-Create is annoying to switch into however...) but the special set is the one that rocks everybody's socks off. However it definitely has its limitations, just a different brand from the ones of the physical one. Like you can't beat Umbreon and Snorlax unless you're lucky enough to nail them with a Focus Blast on the switch-in, and possibly with Rocks up, even at that. Otherwise...be grateful Umbreon at least doesn't carry Pursuit, lol.
  3. TLK

    TLK

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    Cursed body is a great, underrated ability. Even using your Froslass as death fodder can sometimes lead to situations that make your opponent in a shitty position. I pair it with a Pokemon that actually shares similar weaknesses (Chandelure is great as it is also a spinblocker and shares 3 weaknesses that Froslass has). So when Mienshao uses Stone Edge on Froslass and gets disabled, I know I can go into Chandelure and get a free sub up. And something like Chandelure with a sub kills something almost every time, usually two things (unless your opponent has a P2 or a Snorlax).

    I'm not sure it's totally broken, but it is the most effective Pokemon in the metagame. Guaranteed spikes, an awesome crippling ability, can taunt and then take another Pokemon down.

    I don't think people appreciate the different types of Froslass that can be used too. The standard Sash set is really effective right now, but the Max HP one is awesome as it gives it more opportunities to set up on weaker, slower Pokemon.
    Shiruba, Lovelace and PK Gaming like this.
  4. Oddish is the best

    Oddish is the best

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    Froslass is good but I really don't think it should be banned. It has only one style of play and if it continues to rise in popularity people will just use its counters more...


    On a side note, Roserade is a much more versatile spiker with access to toxic spikes and a way better special attack stat allowing it to potentially sweep and set up spikes which is something Froslass can not do. Froslass is good at what it does but if Froslass is getting suspected it's kinda silly that Roserade wouldn't be as well and if Froslass was banned then people would just use Roserade ALL THE TIME.
  5. CoolStoryBrobat

    CoolStoryBrobat The hero Smogon needs, but not the one it deserves
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    Well the issue with Roserade is it's MUCH easier to check than Froslass...And if you're running an offensive Roserade that sets up hazards, you have to forgo Spikes for Toxic Spikes (If you run Leaf Storm/Sleep Powder) due to incompatibility issues. And if you're using a defensive Spikes Roserade, you have to worry about the lack of Speed and offensive presence, which can often invite the foe's sweepers to come in on you. And then there's the issue of Roserade being slower than Froslass, having abysmal physical defense, lacking a suicidal move that forces mindgames, etc. etc. etc. blahblah

    Not saying Roserade is bad even by comparison, but more or less it's got much less of an impact compared to Froslass. Also, Qwilfish can set Spikes y'know : P
  6. Kitten Milk

    Kitten Milk [22:59:31] <KittenUU> 241 of which are fellacious
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    I did a comparison on the three main spikers of the tier (Froslass, Roserade, and Qwilfish) in the stage 12 thread, so I'm not going to go through that again. As some of you may know already, I really don't think Froslass should be suspected, and furthermore I don't know what the suspect will really accomplish. In the tier without froslass, people will use alternate spikers, and their teams will be as good if not better. In the tier with froslass, people will use froslass a significant amount more than they did before (it really doesn't have that high of usage for a suspect, even), and people will go crazy finding ways to counter froslass and finding ways to counter counters to froslass and then countering that etc etc etc. (See, Chandelure ban suspect).

    My point throughout the whole thing has not been that froslass is bad, not viable, or even not possibly one of the best spikers of the tier. My point is merely that having a good spiker does nothing more than promote diversity in the tier, and that Froslass just isn't toxic whatsoever to the tier. There are things that deserve to be suspected and banned. These are things that you make sure to have at least two counters in your team, things that you build teams around, things that you curse and remember with a mixture of fondness and hatred, things like Chansey. Froslass isn't one of these pokemon. Yes, it's good. Yes, it's an incredibly diverse support poke. Yes, it theoretically has viability in other sets, but those sets aren't used enough to be considered. That said, I have never considered and I've never heard any good player say that in the current UU metagame, Froslass is broken.

    Now that I've gotten my little philosophical nonsense out of the way, I'd just like to focus on something said by Metal Sonic.


    Hey, you know what else has Taunt, Spikes, Destiny Bond, Pretty High speed, and great defensive typing? Qwilfish.

    Oh yeah, it also gets (and uses) Pain Split, Thunder Wave, Haze, Dualstab, Explosion, Toxic Spikes. Not to mention it doesn't lose to multihit moves, lives longer than three turns, and is used effectively as a lead and a wall. I'd call for a Qwilfish suspect, but it's sort of in RU. (hmm...)

    One final thing. I see a lot of people saying that rapid spinners aren't something that make Froslass less effective because they're bad in UU.

    Yes. That's true. Rapid spinners in UU are generally not very good. That doesn't mean they don't exist, though. Just like you can't argue that Froslass should be suspected for its underused bulky PainSplit set, you can't argue that rapid spinners in UU aren't a problem merely because they aren't good. Ambipom is a pile of shit as well, but it counters Froslass to hell and back with Beat Up.
  7. TPO3

    TPO3 Never practice; Always perform.

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    Qwilfish however, cannot spinblock for itself, nor does it make for a great pokemon to use on Offensive teams, since it slows them down to much, and in all reality, just begs for Blastoise to switch into it. Froslass can lay down spikes, die, and you can proceed to nuke everything on your opponents team with the 5 offensive pokemon you are running behind your suicide lead Froslass, the pressure making it very difficult for spinners to switch in and actually get a turn to spin. If you aren't running offensive lass then this is irrelevant because you can just spinblock for yourself.


    First of all, there's a difference between not being used and being extremely terrible. Froslass's bulky set should absolutely be included in this argument it's really really good. If tyranitar for some miraculous reason dropped to the bottom of UU, we wouldn't not suspect it just because nobody uses it. IIRC, Gothitelle was not even in top 25 usage when we suspected it.

    Second of all, we are not saying that spinners are irrelevant because they suck. We're saying spinners are irrelevant because they don't stop Froslass. Bulkylass can spinblock for itself, and offensivelass either has 5 pokemon that keep pressure on spinners, thus not allowing them to spin, or sometimes it runs stuff like OTR Cofagrigus to make extra sure that its spikes stay down. That's why they're irrelevant. Not because they suck, but because Froslass ends up accomplishing what it was supposed to accomplish anyways.[/quote]
  8. TLK

    TLK

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    This is a great point. Yes there are other spikers like Roserade and Qwilfish, but both of them aren't as useful on your standard offensive team as Froslass. Spikes Roserade is usually a bulky spread, while Qwilfish's niche is as a defensive Pokemon which doesn't complement a hyper offense team like Froslass does.

    Roserade is an absolute top Pokemon in UU, one of the best in the whole tier because it's versatile and is generally an annoying prick to face as you're always wondering "am I going to be smacked with a leaf storm or a sleep powder from fast Roserade, or is it going to set up on my face with a bulky Roserade". Nobody is disputing that Roserade is great. But Froslass works as a spiker so well because it complements these high offense teams perfectly with great typing, ability and ideal movepool.
  9. Oddish is the best

    Oddish is the best

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    While I think spin blocking is an overrated Froslass quality mainly because it is a suicide lead and people don't send out spinners first, I do think that Froslass is quite good when the user is competent enough to use it. Good players can play mind games with the opponent with destiny bond/taunt/ice beam or shadow ball/spikes set. Froslass can usually either get at least 1 layer of spikes down then kill with DB or set up spikes all over a support lead and taunt them as well. I think that Froslass is a great pokemon but I really don't think its strategy always results in wins or is to dominating in the current meta.
  10. iliekmudkipz123456789

    iliekmudkipz123456789

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    I think that Frosslass should stay in uu. Blastoise is a really common pokemon along with Hitmontop so Frosslass won't be able to keep her hazards throughout the match since they can both run Foresight. There is no need to suspect this thing. If anything they should suspect test mienshao because of its wide movepool it can tear apart entire teams. But Frosslass???? Who else is gonna set up spikes in uu?? Omastar?? Crustle?? Smeargle?? They're all too uncommon and pretty bad. Frosslass isn't even that good either as it gets wrecked by fire types and is too weak to stay alive while at the same time keep her hazards up. I know that I'm probably in the minority, but there is no need suspect Frosslass. On a side note, since they're suspecting Frosslass, I might as well test it out in ou and see what advantages it has over other spikers.
  11. MCBarrett

    MCBarrett i love it when you call me big hoppa

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    I was thinking about this and I thought that a good thing to compare it to was the Deoxys-D suspect voting in OU. They have similar roles as excellent Hazard setters but both bring other good things to the table. Deoxys also had amazing defenses and Magic Coat to ensure that Hazards were always set while Froslass has great speed, Taunt and Destiny Bond while also being a Spinblocker. I think we should all be considering the impact of how these extra things that Froslass can bring to the table have on the UU metagame. The reason for this being that and excellent Hazard setter will likely emerge from the Suspect Testing just as Custap Skarm and Forre became common during the OU Suspect Test. Now these things will never be banned because they do not possess the excellent defenses and support move pool that Deoxys-D did. So the question becomes, does the fact that Froslass is a Hazard setter that has excellent speed, Destiny Bond, Taunt and can Spinblock make it broken in UU?

    My personal opinion would be yes. Being able to set Hazards in addition to having a very good chance at taking out an opposing Pokemon, and keeping Hazards off of your side while keeping them on the opposing side is very powerful. And although there are definitely ways to play around it there is really no great matchup against Froslass in UU that I can think of.
  12. SmashBrosBrawl

    SmashBrosBrawl

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    ''Being able to set Hazards in addition to having a very good chance at taking out an opposing Pokemon, and keeping Hazards off of your side while keeping them on the opposing side''
    Arguably. Froslass is a suicide lead which means once it has done its job it will die by either destiny bond or being revenge killed. Even the utility set isnt really going to last through the match. Froslass frailness makes it a really terrible spinblocker, it cant be relied on to keep its hazards on the opponent field. Taunt will really only carry you so far. Taunting the likes of bronzong or rhyperior is risky and once the opponent sees froslass on team preview they are likely to not lead with a slower hazard user and setup later. Again froslass cant be relied on to prevent hazards from being setup. Its true that froslass can pretty much guarantee one or two spikes and destiny bond mind games will probably allow it to set a third one or ko something at the cost of its life but really, spinners are everywhere. Keeping offensive presence isnt enough. Spinners only need one turn in order to undo all your hardwork and even if they cant do this in froslass presence, her inevitable demise means that its only a matter of time. There are also several pokemon that ensure that froslass wont be doing much (scarfers and naturally faster pokemon ensure it will only get one layer, faster taunt users ensure it will get none, pokemon with multihit moves destroy it too). Overall froslass inst really on the level of something like deoxys-s in ou. It only has one hazard, is horrible frail meaning that a single misprediction is the end of it, can be outsped and killed/taunted, MUST be used on the lead position to ensure that it will be getting a spikes up etc. It inst really breaking the game or anything. Just a great support pokemon that happens to be the best at what it does.
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  13. Oddish is the best

    Oddish is the best

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    Ambipom hehehehehehehehehe (Assuming that they are carrying beat up which they should)


    Anyways...
    Froslass's ability to spinblock is really overrated because most teams don't send out a spinner first lol! Also, since Frossy is a suicide lead and won't be in the battle when a team sends out a spinner. The thing that Froslass is best at though is getting the spikes out and having 5 sweepers to sweep whole teams. That's really the part of Froslass that's so good IMO spin blocking is just kind of a bonus (But seriously who would send a rapid spinner out as a lead!?)
  14. Kitten Milk

    Kitten Milk [22:59:31] <KittenUU> 241 of which are fellacious
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    [/quote]



    As I've stated previously, only the suicide lead set should be considered. For starters, we're not talking about "not top 25 usage", we're talking about basically never used. Froslass is a pokemon with middling popularity anyway, and its bulky Pain Split set has less than 4% usage out of all the Froslass used - it is only listed in "Other Moves" under the June Moveset statistics, under Trick, which has 4.6% usage.

    I'd argue that your hypothetical Tyranitar point is false - if something is basically never used (We're talking about .09 x .04 = bulky froslass is being used in 36 games out of every 10,000), it is completely irrelevant to the metagame and should completely ignored. It's the same thing as people arguing that Chandelure had no counters because it could resort to running Will-o-Wisp to counter Snorlax, even though no one ever ran it.

    Other than that, I'd actually say that Qwifish is an amazing pivot on offensive teams, but no one's going to agree with me on that so I'll let it slide ^^, That said, I don't really understand your point about suicide lead Froslass having such offensive pressure that spinners can't spin. Suicide Froslass survives for a maximum of 3-5 turns in the game. There are plenty of turns after that for a Spinner to come in, and unless you're running dual ghosts, they can spin with ease. Yes, with proper team support you can keep spikes on the field if you really, really want to. You'd have to run like, three ghosts, an Azelf, and a Raikou, though, because Blastoise and HTop use Foresight.

    I guess what I'm trying to get at with all of this is that we should merely be examining Froslass for the roles that it does fill, not the roles that it can fill.
  15. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    Okay let me stop this nonsensical bullshit right now. There is no way in any of the seven hells that we're only considering the suicide lead when we talk about Froslass in a suspect capacity; that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in a suspect discussion (and that is saying a hell of a lot).

    I'd like to take this opportunity to remind you all--especially Kitten Milk-- that Gothitelle was NU and seeing about 2% usage at the time we decided to unanimously ban it. A set's usage has relevance to its suspect status, but it no way does the fact that the ladder playerbase is filled with terrible players who haven't caught on to what's actually good dictate what gets banned and what doesn't.

    For the record, both me and reachzero have teams that successfully employ bulky Froslass. The fact that the spinners in UU suck does not help the pro-UU side; quite the opposite, really, since that set actually beats all the spinners--bar Kabutops, I guess--and can therefore spinblock for itself, which is fucking huge.

    Oh and just so I get this out of the way, suspect ladder is up; reqs will be roughly 2050/2100 +-55 on Standard AND 2050/2100 +-65 or so on Suspect.
  16. Jatul

    Jatul

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    I really dont think frosslass is suspect worthy as it has plenty of checks and can easily be set up on. but that's just my opinion

    Do i think it's broken nope. Do I think it's good enough to warrant teams build around it sure. But teams should not be building entirely around one poke and I don't think people are doing that.

    But let's take a look at what this ban would do. Stall teams/hail would become alot less prevalent sure there are other spikes namely Qwillfish but it would be limited on a hail team and Qwillfish isn't exactly a bulky special poke. Spinning would be easier as Frosslass is an amazing spinner. We would see more Hitmontops and Blastoises. This would also discourage the use of entry hazzards and we would see more tank teams (Different from stall).

    Frosslass does encourage a specific play style. It forces your oponnent to adapt a more offensive playstyle with the hazzards I don't think fross lass is the issue it's hazzards (But that's another can of worms). I can't really pinpoint a single problem specifically with frosslass that warrents the big ol ban hammer.
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  17. Magcargo

    Magcargo Okay
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    I might be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure that deoxys-d was broken because of its dual screen set, not the suicide lead set.

    Anyways, froslass is a tough one. Thanks to is amazing speed and ability to spinblock, froslass is by far the best spiker and arguably the best spinblocker in the tier. Thanks to taunt, hitmontop and blastoise cannot use foresight and spin against froslass like they can on other ghost. In fact, the only viable spinner who can beat froslass is the rare kabutops, who can use the combination of stone edge and aqua jet to keep frosslass in check. Unlike other ghost types, froslass has access to thunder wave, which cripples pokemon like mienshoa and raikou and further increases froslass's utility.

    In the current metagame, the bulky utility set is the best set. This set can not only function as a good lead, but is also decent mid game since it can set up spikes on pokemon like choice locked snorlax and mienshao, as well as offer taunt and destiny support.

    However, froslass lacks one major move: Stealth rock. Unlike other leads like omastar and crustle, froslass is only limited to setting up spikes. While this is by no means bad, common pokemon such as zapdos, togekiss and crobat are immune to spikes. Furthermore, you still have to waste a slot for a SR user, a factor that does not apply to any other lead.

    Another flaws is froslass's mediocre base stats. 70/70/70 defenses are absolutely atrocious in the metagame and froslass will struggle to take powerful neutral hits from pokemon such as raikou and crobat. Unlike other frail pokemon, froslass also has mediocre attacking stats, meaning that it will fail to deal significant damage to the opponent.

    Like people have stated before, pokemon with multi hit moves, like cinccino, can shut froslass down before it does anything. A fast taunt user like weavile also shuts froslass down due to froslass's lackluster special attack.

    Overall, while froslass is a tough nut to crack, I think that it should not be banned due to its lackluster stats, relatively poor typing and most importantly, its lack of stealth rock.
  18. Oddish is the best

    Oddish is the best

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    Agree for the most part here but it is is not the best spinblocker in the tier because it is mainly uses as a suicide lead. Spin blocking is always nice but Froslass usaully isn't spinblocking in any situations and its hazards can get spun away later after Frossy has died 2-5 turns in. It's a great lead but I just think that the spinblocking part is overrated and is used a lot in people who want frossy banned :(. That's all.
    iliekmudkipz123456789 likes this.
  19. reachzero

    reachzero the pastor of disaster
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    Not only is kokoloko correct about BulkyLass being awesome (when I started laddering on the Suspect ladder, I realized I needed a new team from scratch because EVERY ONE of my good teams used BulkyLass) in terms of having plenty of opportunities to set up and being able to Spinblock for itself (you can wear Blastoise and Top down with Pain Split and your attacks pretty easily, until it dies whether it stays in on whatever comes in next, or whether it takes hazard damage the next time is tries to come in), but BulkyLass is no where near as rare as Kitten Milk would have you believe. In the most recent set of usage stats, Froslass used Leftovers 25.842% of the time; fully 1/4 of the Froslass on the ladder were BulkyLass. Bulky Froslass is just as worthy of consideration in Froslass' tiering as Suicide Lass is. In fact, I find that having one Pokemon to both Spike and Spinblock does a ton to change the metagame: since Lass is incredibly hard to keep from getting Spikes up, there is almost no downside to using Pokemon that are fairly Spikes dependent, like CB Flygon. It helps stall teams to not need two team slots for Spikes and Spinblocking, but BulkyLass in particular also really hurts stall in that it makes it almost impossible for a stall team to keep Spikes off the field, which really hurts a stall team's ability to handle Victini, CB Flygon, etc. Especially noteworthy is the fact that Froslass almost single-handedly makes Xatu useless; Froslass is the only remotely common Spiker that Xatu cannot block. In other words, one of the big differences between Froslass and, say, Victini or Mienshao is that while Victini or Mienshao fit into one of the common categories that every good UU team has to handle (strong physical Fire type, strong Fighting type, strong Electric type, etc.), Froslass has a totally unique impact. Remove Victini, and people will still carry Rhyperior, Swampert, Qwilfish, etc. because Darmanitan and Arcanine are still very, very threatening. Remove Froslass, and nothing else is nearly as good at doing all of the unique things that it does. Whether you think Froslass' impact on the metagame is too much or not is debatable; that it's impact is very, very large is indisputable.
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  20. Kitten Milk

    Kitten Milk [22:59:31] <KittenUU> 241 of which are fellacious
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    Reach, I've seen a lot of people using suilead froslass with lefties. (I'm not saying that's a good idea, but it is a thing apparently).

    I guess you guys are right about usage not mattering, it just sort of bugs me a little bit. I assumed that bans and suspect tests were for broken things that were being abused, but compared to you guys I'm relatively new here, so I'll acknowledge that.

    In all honesty, this suspect discussion will probably make the usage of bulky froslass rise quite a bit, making it very valid in the argument. I'll be the first to admit that I actually haven't ever used bulky Lass, so I can't really argue for or against it. In light of this conversation, I'm definitely going to try it on a laddering account, and maybe then I'll be able to concede that it's good enough to be suspected and banned :P

    Oh, by the way - Kokoloko, do the 2050-2100 ratings for UU suspect and UU normal have to be on the same account, or do we just have to own both accounts?

    One final thing about the suspect test, the ladder seems to be really, really sluggish =(
  21. LonelyNess

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    There's kind of a reason that both defensive teams AND offensive teams are using Froslass right now.

    And I'll give you a hint, it rhymes with "Snosgrass is token".

    Give up?

    Froslass is broken.
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  22. Kenny

    Kenny don't expect me

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    I'm curious of your reason, since you didn't list one?
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  23. LonelyNess

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    I did give a reason, it is so good that all team archtypes are using it. If you are not using Froslass you are gimping yourself, because it's "too good to not use". It is completely nonpunishable and provides overwhelming support to the rest of your team. Spiking + Spinblocking + Ability to stop opponents set-up is "too good".
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  24. Gary2346

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    To say that this is an over exaggeration is an understatement. Just because a Pokemon is useful on many different kind of team archetypes, does NOT make it broken. I hate to use a Pokemon from another tier as an example, but look at Skarmory in OU, who's useful on pretty much every kind of team that you slap it on, because of its ability to almost always setup two layers of Spikes. Custap Skarm is good on Hyper Offense, Standard Skarm is good on balanced teams and stall teams. Of course, Skarmory is easy to punish, but when used right, Custap Skarmory will guarantee you 2-3 hazards. Froslass is very similar in a sense, because it pretty much guarantees two free layers. Problem is, Froslass just can't be slapped on any team like you say. Any Pokemon with Spikes is automatically considered useful because of the immense pressure it puts on teams, and no matter what kind of team your using, it's going to benefit from Spikes. Froslass is useful because of its high speed, Ghost-typing, and Spikes. Honestly though, this does not make it broken. Froslass is one of, if not, the most predictable Pokemon in the entire UU metagame. If you send out a supporting Pokemon into Froslass, more likely then not it's going to use Taunt to prevent you from setting up on it. Predicting that, you hit it hard with a coveraging move. Next, it's going to immediately setup Spikes, and then once you bring it down to its Focus Sash, it will Destiny Bond. If you're an experienced player, this shouldn't be a problem at all to play around. Almost all of the spinners with the exception of Claydol can beat Froslass in some way. Sure Froslass can spinblock, but it's too frail to rely on that ability. It's even worse when you have your own hazards on the field, because now Froslass has to take a massive amount of damage when it comes in just to spinblock, and even then, a smart player can predict that and just use an attacking move. Saying that Froslass is nonpunishable is just silly, because it can't take hits well at all, weak to all forms of hazards, and status really hurts its effectiveness. I'm beginning to see a pattern here. Everything that's fast and has access to Spikes, is considered broken. Why? Because no one wants to use a Rapid Spinner. Getting rid of Froslass wont really change the metagame as drastically as everyone is saying it would. It's ability to use Spikes extremely effectively is almost unmatched in UU, but unlike Deoxys-D was in OU, it's not immortal, it can't fuck over every rapid spinner in the tier, it's extremely predictable, weak to all forms of hazards, frail as fuck, and it IS punishable. It's a great boon to teams that depend on Spikes, but you really can't just slap Froslass on any kind of team to make your team better. It still requires team support, just like every other Spiker in the tier.
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  25. Kitten Milk

    Kitten Milk [22:59:31] <KittenUU> 241 of which are fellacious
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    100% agreement on all of this except for the bit about Crobat. One of the things that does make Froslass good is that anything with Taunt that possibly could be faster than it (Azelf, Aerodactyl, Accelgor, Crobat) are all either weak to ice or incredibly frail, so they can't comfortably take 1 or 2.

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