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Discussion in 'UnderUsed' started by kokoloko, Jul 7, 2013.
If you previously posted reqs in this thread, please repost them here. Thank you.
Does anybody consider Hitmonlee a good RapidSpinner for UU as well, or is it just me? I find Hitmonlee's Stone Edge and otherwise Reckless-boosted moves to provide solid coverage to not only take down Froslass, but other Pokemon as well. I'm mostly curious as to why Hitmonlee and Kabutops aren't reputed more, what with other UU Spinners (except Blastoise) being failures by comparison
This is a really good post, but I have one qualm with it. Just because Kabutops and Cryogonal are not used enough to be considered "UU" doesn't mean that they are not viable. Kabutops in particular is a great spinner, especially with rain support. In rain, Kabutops just destroys Bulky Froslass and can spin immediately after getting rid of it. I actually consider Kabutops to be at least as good as the more common spinners found in the tier, but maybe that's just me. As for Froslass itself, it has severe issues with Azelf carrying Taunt and Fire Blast. Azelf can Taunt Froslass before it can set up Spikes or use Destiny Bond, and Bulky Lass cannot 2HKO with Ice Beam. Froslass can opt to use Shadow Ball to better deal with Azelf but has a bad case of the 4 moveslot syndrome as it is. Lead Azelf can beat lead Lass by simply attacking it twice. Froslass also has trouble with Rhyperior and Crobat, two very common pokemon. While Froslass is really good, there are enough pokemon that can hold it to one layer of spikes for me to consider it unbroken (and Destiny Bond can be played around). All good UU teams must have an appropriate answer to it though.
On the Suspect ladder, I experimented with Porygon-Z quite a bit, and I found it to be extremely underrated. I used:
Porygon-Z @ Lum Berry
EVs: 156 Spd / 252 SAtk / 100 HP
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tri Attack
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot
P-Z can survive or even avoid being 2HKOed by a lot of STAB attacks from weak attackers so long as they are not supereffective; even one boost can mean death for a lot of teams. The nice part is that after an Agility, you outspeed Scarf Mienshao; that makes Porygon-Z extremely difficult to revenge kill. It doesn't give a team anything offensively (except a Ghost immunity, which can be situationally useful against Cofagrigus), but even without Spikes it can totally destroy stuff. With Spikes up, it can sweep teams pretty much singlehandedly.
Double boosting PZ is extremely powerful with screens up. Pair is up with something like Dual Screens Azelf on a hyper offensive teams and you can burn through teams.
Changing topics real quick, does anyone think Victini should get banned? Am I the only one that thinks once the set is exposed, it is rather easy to play around?
Well that's the problem. I do agree that once the set is exposed, you can definitely play around Victini. However, it's that 1-2 turns where it's not exposed that it's the most dangerous. You can switch Rhyperior in expecting V-Create or U-turn, and then eat a Grass Knot. Or, you could switch Snorlax or Slowking in expecting a Blue Flare, and instead eat a CB V-Create or Bolt Strike. It doesn't help that most special and/or mixed sets also run U-turn or V-Create to bluff for the first few turns anyways. (U-turn because it's good, and V-create because it's just that obscenely powerful.) It's kind of similar to Salamence in DPP OU, where once you figure out its set, you could beat it. That turn it initially hits the field, however, you didn't know whether to expect Dragon Dance or Draco Meteor, and you could pay pretty dearly for it.
I recently saw someone using a fast Focus Sash Qwilfish. I suppose they were trying to find a possible replacement for Frosslass and Qwilfish does learn all the relevant support moves with the added bonus of Intimidate. I think that that kind of lead Qwilfish is definitely viable but without the speed and the really well positioned STAB it was much easier to play around.
Yeah Qwilfish can run the Sash+Spikes+Dbond, which makes it an alright replacement for Froslass, and the decent defensive typing and Imtimidate are cool. I haven't used it, but looking at it it definitely looks like a viable replacement. Obviously, nothing is ever going to be as good in UU as Froslass when it comes to Spike stacking in UU, which is why that despite the fact that I see Froslass as broken in a way, I would miss it. Speaking of potential Froslass replacements if it gets banned, here's a really good one.
Scolipede (M) @ Focus Sash / Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Rock Slide
Despite his relegation to the lower tiers, Scolipede is an awesome choice for a fast Spiker in UU. Here we have Froslass 2.0, despite being less effective, he gets Spikes up really quickly; and he also poses a real offensive threat as well. He has an awesome Speed tier, which means he outpaces a lot of the metagame, and his two quad resistances also give him opportunities to come in and do the Spiking job against threats such as Mienshao and Roserade. Megahorn is really powerful and does a lot of damage; while Swarm is cool if you reach the Sash, so once you're done, you don't get D-Bond, but you get the cool trait of firing mega powered Megahorns as a final gambit. EQ+Rock Slide form the QuakeSlide combo for Scolipede to deal some real damage to shit, and between the three moves Scolipede has unresisted coverage. The cool thing about Scolipede is that his awesome Speed is so good that he outpaces Scrafty even after a DD boost, so he can double Megahorn him while Scrafty can't beat him one-on-one. Oh and Megahorn+Sash is also cool to beat Azelf one-on-one, which is excellent. Overall this is a really solid choice in UU, and should be used more especially as a Froslass substitute.
^ I'd like to add that if it sticks around, Scolipede can also absorb Toxic Spikes [and set up your own, if you wish], which increases its versatility, I'd think. Still doesn't get Taunt/spinblocking capabilities, which is a shame, but Scolipede's got more offensive presence than Froslass to at least kind of make up for it.
I've been on the regular ladder under the alt 'swampervert', it's at 1947 +- 74 with 30 wins and 3 loses. I've never laddered for a suspect test, so I'm worried my deviation is too low and I won't make it. Should I begin again, or keep going? I won't want to start over if this alt falls short after another 35 games.
While I agree that Victini has some surprise value, you have to take into consideration that Mew and Kingdra also have massive surprise value. Mew can run just about any set-- and rather effectively. I've seen Magic Coat leads to Mono-attacking boosting sets--WITH BATON PASS (This is too good actually), but I don't see it broken. Kingdra, it can be special or physical also! If I switch in Slowbro expecting a DD or Outrage and have to eat up a Draco Meteor, Slowbro will be decimated after some hazards. Likewise, if I see no item and assume Specs (Could be Lum or Chesto), and I switch my Umbreon only to have to fight up against a DD set, it could mean certain death.
Victini takes out Rhyperior, yes, with a GRASS TYPE MOVE. Expert Belt Raikou does pretty much the same thing, and that has surprise value. A good player WILL be able to play around Victini. If it's the special set, it lacks the speed and raw power to do major damage to anything OTHER than PHYSICAL counters. It's pretty ridiculous that people are complaining about how Grass Knot does work on Rhyperior. The reason thaty Rhyperior is even used is mostly due to the fact that it has Solid Rock, SRs, phazing, and checks Zapdos and Raikou without HP Grass, something that is important. The 2 hardest hitting electric types are pretty much stopped cold without HP Grass. Rhyperior was NOT meant to check Special Victini. Snorlax takes hits for days and can poo on it with Body Slam.
Hi guys, just deleted a lot of posts. This isn't the place to talk about the ladder. If you want to include a line or two about it in passing conversation, that's one thing. But a short posts with nothing else are going to be deleted, and infracted if they are repeated.
Ace, your thoughts on Victini?
I think Victini is impossible to switch into. Its not necessarily that its versatile, like Mew or Kingdra, but its just got two, really powerful sets. Its average attacking stats are more than compensated by its high powered moves (even access Blue Flare and Focus Blast is a bitch, to say nothing of V-Create). To compare it to other top threats, Kingdra can at least be stalled and phazed and has a few Pokemon that can switch into the majority of sets. Mew lacks a 120 Base STAB, Victini rocks a 130 and 180. To comment on your comparison to Raikou, the difference between Mixed Tini and Expert Belt Raikou: Expert Belt Raikou isn't a nuke. You're dealing with an unboosted Thunderbolt as the best spamming move. Mixed Tini dishes out massive damage with V-create, while being an excellent lure for Rhyperior and Swampert. And Special Tini is a force to be reckoned with, base 100 Speed is far from slow, and a LO boosted 130 base STAB move is far from weak. Besides, Special Tini gets its power from a wide Special movepool which makes it pretty hard to wall on its own. Nothing can counter both Special and Physical Tini, both sets are very powerful, and I think that's a pretty strong case for banning it.
The difference between Victini and Kingdra is that Victini's mixed set nukes absolutely anything that would switch into the CB set, and the CB set nukes anything that could switch into the Mixed set. Kingdra has quite a few pokemon that can switch into both sets effectively. (Not bad pokemon either, but actual useful and common ones, like Umbreon, Empoleon, Shaymin, Porygon2, Slowking, etc.) You don't have this luxury with Victini, which is what makes it so dangerous. Mew is a better comparison, but as Ace Emerald pointed out, it can't just spam attacks and hit for massive amounts of damage. It needs a turn of setup, and even then its most powerful STAB attack is only half as powerful as Victini's V-Create.
I think the only thing stopping Victini from banning is that it isn't too hard to check as some dangerous Pokemon outspeed it and it can even be trapped by the increasingly useful Weavile. In the discussion between Victini and Kingdra, I think that Victini is much more dangerous in that first turn it gets into the battle, Kingdra is more devastating and harder to check after it DDs or rain is up.
Ace and TPO3 bring up excellent points. Yes, it is hard to initially switch into Victini; however, that being said, once the set is revealed, it is rather easy to play around with.
Most experienced players will scout for the Mixed Sets. For instance, I used to run RestChesto Rotom-C with Victini. Rotom-C takes care of most of the physical checks of Raikou and Victini, so when I volt-switched to lure in a Swampert, the player then switched into a grass-resist to scout if I was even choice-locked. It was an excellent play on his part, and obviously he pooped on my life. The point being is that Victini just takes a bit of an extensive playing ground to figure out if it is special, physical, or mixed.
Victini that is not scarfed WILL be outspeed by the common scarfers, Flygon, Mienshao, etc. Flygon can OHK with EQ, and Mienshao can OHK most of the time if Victini is below 70% HP (Something not hard with Recoil and Hazards). There are some other Pokes that naturally outspeed and hit it hard, such as Weavile and Crobat.
It really saddens me to see Victini go. I already know that Victini has NO place in the upper tiers. When is the last time someone saw Staraptor used in OU? When Mew went up to OU for 3 months, NOTHING happened with Mew. Mew was really good in UU (At the time when Darm was the most common scarfer, and the SD Mew set was god-like...this was before Scrafty and Mienshao dropped), but it didn't do anything in OU. Just because something is banned from the lower tiers does not mean it will have a place in the higher tiers. For example, in OU, Genesect was used by practically EVERY serious OU team--the reason being that everyone knew Genesect was good for OU, in fact, TOO good, so it went to Ubers. People still use it FAIRLY regularly in Ubers. On the contrary, Tornadus-T (The one with Regen I believe) left OU, and basically no one uses it in Ubers. It was extremely useful in OU, but it has no place.
Victini is very, very good in UU, that is not to be questioned; however, it can only run offensive sets. It is very unlike Snorlax. Snorlax, in theory, is better than Victini. It can run a Banded Set, a Specially Defensive set, a Physically Defensive Set, Curse-Set and so on and so forth. Snorlax also has a great ability, arguably better than Victini. Snorlax isn't in question of being banned, and honestly, Snorlax is harder to deal with than Victini IMO. Chandelure still beats most Victini sets 1v1, losing to the very rare glaciate + psychic sets or the Bolt Strike Crits/Para's.
All in all, I know Victini is leaving UU, but I really think everyone should reconsider. Victini has been in UU for SO long and NO one has had problems. It has immense coverage, but it's pretty much a lesser Infernape (Offensively speaking). Victini is a fire-type equivalent to Kingdra--except with WAYYYY worse typing.
I'm probably not going to make Pre-reqs because ANYONE "good" that I ask is against Victini staying, so there is no point in doing all the work for being the only one who wants it to stay. All in all, I hope my reasonings convince anyone to vote otherwise :]
Your comparisons are very wrong honestly. Victini has nothing to do with snorlax. Victini is a nuke mixed or physical attacker while snorlax is a bulk attacker or a wall. Snorlax can fill more roles but he is in no way "better" than victini. Victini is actually really good in ou and even has an uber analysis, so i really dont know why you say it has no place in high tiers. Please dont say that no one had troubles with victini. I had been wanting it banned for a long time and im sure you will find other people that do so too. Also you do realize victini completely outclass infernape right?
There's something bugging me about what people are saying about Vicinti here...
While, yes, it is true that Victini is at its maximum damage potential during those first few turns when your opponent doesn't know what set it is, it isn't at all like Kingdra/Mew in the sense that the danger factor reduces by a metric fuckton once the set is revealed. Each individual set already has a very limited amount of safe switch-ins, and this part does not go away once the surprise factor is gone. Think about it, what exactly do you switch into Blue Flare / Grass Knot / Focus Blast / Psyshock Vicini? Snorlax needs to be in tip-top shape to take this on, because Psyshock + Focus Blast does a lot of damage (Psyshock: 31.58 - 37.62%; Focus Blast: 41.24 - 48.69% vs standard Classic CurseLax). The more used set (by good players, anyway), CB, doesn't even stand a chance (Psyshock + Focus Blast is nearly a guaranteed 2HKO after SR. Umbreon is a good answer, and so is Slowking, but that's about it really. The CB set is so absurdly powerful that even its best switchins have to be at high HP to tank 2 hits (CB V-Create does 34% minimum to 248/0 Rhyperior and if Slowbro switches into a Bolt Strike once, then it gets 2HKO'd by V-Create the next time, despite Regenerator).
And this doesn't even begin to cover the other potential sets, like Trick Room / Mixed...
100% agreement here. I'd like to add that with all of these sets, there's also the immediate and common "threat" of U-turn - even if you do have a counter to Victini at a high enough health to live two hits, the Victini user can easily predict that and just get out of there and maintain momentum.
Another point I'd like to touch on is that these sets being argued are standard, but they can practically be mixed and matched however you please. I've seen mixed Charcoal victini with Blue Flare and V-Create, I personally use banded victini with grass knot for the surprise factor, and there a slew of other good options that make counters to sets even after you "reveal" them die. For example, Koko said that Umbreon and Slowking are good answers to special victini. If it turns out to be mixed running U-turn, you could be screwed. If it turns out to run Thunder (which a lot of sets do), then Slowking is hardly a counter.
The problem with Victini isn't that any one of its moves/abilities/sets is broken. It just has such a vast array of options that it is impossible to cover all of the bases and it is impossible to ever be safe from it. Just in my own experience, I've successfully used and seen:
Items: Charcoal, Life Orb, Choice Scarf, Choice Band, Leftovers(eh)
Moves: V-Create, U-turn, Bolt Strike, Zen Headbutt, Thunder, Thunderbolt, Focus Blast, Blue Flare, Psyshock, Psychic, Trick Room, Grass Knot, Stored Power, Quick Attack, Glaciate
Not only are all of these options viable, you could practically mix and match any number of them to get new and usable sets. Mixed Trick Room Victini with Psychic and Grass Knot? Sounds pretty good.
Finally, I'd like to flesh out my earlier statement of how good of a recipient of baton pass Victini is. It can make tremendous use of both Quiver Dances and Shell Smashes, which allow it to not only outspeed every scarfer in the tier at +2, but also just demolish everything in its sight.
@ Life Orb
EVs: 180 Atk/252 SpA/76 Speed (Outspeeds Jolly Scarf Mienshao after +2)
Trait: Victory Star
- Stored Power
- Bolt Strike
At this stage, there are 3 pokemon in the entire tier who have a chance of living an attack after Stealth Rocks. Defensive Cress, who has a 12.6% chance to survive, RestTalk Snorlax, who has a 67.5% chance to survive, and Quagsire, who takes like 40-45%.
Obviously, these pokemon are extremely rare in UU, and Cress, which is probably the most common among all of them, can't even do anything in return. If you really wanted to deal with Quagsire you could run Grass Knot, but I prefer Substitute for blocking Sucker Punches from Bisharp/Honchkrow.
When a pokemon can not only effectively run sets from both offensive spectrums with any choice item but can also run very successful gimmick sets with Trick Room and Stored Power, you know that that pokemon is something that deserves to be suspected.
Yes, this is an excellent Baton Pass recipient. Keep the set the way it is. Stored Power has tremendous power after receiving STAB, LO boost, and +2 SpA/SpD/Spe from Venomoth.
I have also experimented with Bulk Up + Baton Pass Mienshao. While it is not exceptional, running Mienshao and Venomoth together let me get a lot of boosts on this beast:
Nidoking (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Atk/252 SpA/252 Spe
Most Nidoking are purely special because of the excellent options to abuse Sheer Force with (Sludge Wave, Earth Power, Focus Blast, Fire Blast, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Blizzard), but running a mixed set lets Nidoking be an excellent wallbreaker, especially with boosts. Earthquake is the STAB of choice, hitting many Pokemon harder than Earth Power, as well as still doing plenty of damage to Mienshao, Victini, Chandelure, and Raikou (Nidoknig outspeeds all of these w/out a Scarf at +1 Speed). In particular, Snorlax and Porygon2 are hit much harder on the switch-in than with Earth Power. Fire Blast hits Steel and Grass-types such as Shaymin and Abomasnow. Ice Beam does a lot against Rhyperior- I think some variants are OHKOd, as well as Flygon. However, Megahorn is the really nasty surprise here. Umbreon is a common switch in to Nidoking since it can take all of its common attacks except Focus Blast, but Megahorn makes quick work of it.
Since we're talking about Froslass's suspect test, I thought I'd bring up that I recently posted an RMT for the suspect ladder:
The purpose of the team is to demonstrate more examples of threats can thrive without Froslass, such as Registeel and Torterra.
For those of you wondering why the standard UU ladder is still up, its because PS had some technical difficulties. I talked to Joim today and he said the standard UU ladder should be hidden by the end of today. If this goes off without a hitch, this'll be the schedule for the remainder of the suspect test:
Suspect UU ladder only: July 22 - July 29
Both UU ladders up again: July 29 - August 4th
Voting Thread goes up: August 5th
Voting Deadline: August 10th
The Victini test will hopefully go more smoothly.
EDIT: Okay, the standard ladder is now hidden, making the suspect ladder the only playable UU. You have a week from now (the 24th) with that as the only ladder, so you can acquire more easily. All the dates posted above will shift forward by 2-3 days, to accommodate for the delay.
Not to interrupt any of the suspect talk going on right now, but I'd like to talk about two amazing and underrated sets that I've found to be outstanding while laddering on suspect.
Sharpedo @ Life Orb
Trait: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
As most of you guys know, Sharpedo is already an amazing late-game cleaner. However, step away from the standard physical set, and try out special Sharpedo. Simply put, Special Sharpedo is amazing; it has great coverage in Hydro Pump, Dark Pulse, and Ice Beam that all pack some pretty strong power because of a very good 95 Special Attack. Special Sharpedo also has the nice advantage of surprise factor. What I really love about this set is that it runs Ice Beam, so Sharpedo can deal much more damage to Shaymin and Flygon than the physical set, and Hydro Pump is also really powerful. Dark Pulse has the cool chance to flinch, so it if the flinch chance somehow happens, you're pretty much golden. When you pair this set up with something like Custap Crustle to lay hazards, this set can singlehandedly tear whole teams apart.
Durant @ Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Hone Claws
- Iron Head / Rock Slide
This is also an amazing late-game cleaner that can slice and dice whole teams to shreds. Durant has a ridiculous amount of power with Hone Claws and Hustle boosting its already high Attack to ridiculous levels, meaning it can hit so damn hard that it's not even funny. Between X-Scissor, Iron Head, and Superpower, Durant is a team killer that can destroy just about everything in UU. Durant also has a really nice Speed tier, so it can outspeed a lot of the UU metagame and hit them pretty hard in return. Durant can easily manhandle most team archetypes, and it can work very well with Discharge Porygon2 to paralyze most Azelf and Raikou so that Durant can outpace them as well and destroy them. This is a very underrated cleaner that should get a lot more credit.
PS: These two also work well together as a dual late-game cleaning combo.
Did I join a game of yours last night? I recall seeing a team with both of these on it. I hadn't really given special Sharpedo much thought until recently, when I found out that Hydro Pump actually out-damages Waterfall:
I've used Durant before with decent success, opting for a Lum Berry over Life Orb. I feel like Durant needs both STABs to be effective, and I think I ended up using Rock Slide over Superpower to be able to hit Fire and Flying types. It has a really nice speed stat and very few things can take a hit from it once it HCs. In my opinion however it really suffers from 4MSS.
I think there's a lot of untapped potential in using lower tier things in UU, I wonder if there would be any interest in starting a thread about discussing that.