np: UU Stage 13 - Ghosts N Stuff

[KM]

Did I join a game of yours last night? I recall seeing a team with both of these on it. I hadn't really given special Sharpedo much thought until recently, when I found out that Hydro Pump actually out-damages Waterfall:



I've used Durant before with decent success, opting for a Lum Berry over Life Orb. I feel like Durant needs both STABs to be effective, and I think I ended up using Rock Slide over Superpower to be able to hit Fire and Flying types. It has a really nice speed stat and very few things can take a hit from it once it HCs. In my opinion however it really suffers from 4MSS.

I think there's a lot of untapped potential in using lower tier things in UU, I wonder if there would be any interest in starting a thread about discussing that.

I would be extremely interested/be ready to contribute a lot to that thread. I know other tiers have it, and UU really does sport a lot of variety in that people plunge into RU and NU quite a lot. There's the obvious ones, of course, like Lilligant, Qwilfish, and Druddigon, but there's also some hidden gems that people don't usually think about it, so that thread could be awesome. If you need any help setting it up or anything I'd be happy to, i'm really excited about this ^^

 

[Explorer]

Did I join a game of yours last night? I recall seeing a team with both of these on it. I hadn't really given special Sharpedo much thought until recently, when I found out that Hydro Pump actually out-damages Waterfall:



I've used Durant before with decent success, opting for a Lum Berry over Life Orb. I feel like Durant needs both STABs to be effective, and I think I ended up using Rock Slide over Superpower to be able to hit Fire and Flying types. It has a really nice speed stat and very few things can take a hit from it once it HCs. In my opinion however it really suffers from 4MSS.

I think there's a lot of untapped potential in using lower tier things in UU, I wonder if there would be any interest in starting a thread about discussing that.

I like using Steel Gem on Durant in case it comes in and can't set up for some reason. It turns random 2HKOs into 1HKOs. The BP including STAB and Hustle is 270 I think?

On the suspect ladder, what Pokemon have people been using to capitalize on the absence of Froslass. I've been playing with a very unusual FWG core of Torterra, Houndoom, and Blastoise (that RMT I linked earlier). What other FWG cores benefit from Froslass out of the picture?

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

Since I accidentally double-posted, let me add that I would generally use Stone Edge as my coverage move on this set, with all the other moves as usual.

On the suspect ladder, what Pokemon have people been using to capitalize on the absence of Froslass. I've been playing with a very unusual FWG core of Torterra, Houndoom, and Blastoise (that RMT I linked earlier). What other FWG cores benefit from Froslass out of the picture?

It's kinda hard to really give a specific answer to that question as it's hard to really relate Froslass to the difficulty of success most FWG cores could have. I mean I guess ones that have grounded Pokemon (Basically almost all relevant FWG cores not carrying Rotom-H or the super rare Rotom-C) are able to get switches going more effectively due to the lack of a fast Spikes user's hazards messing with their switches. However, Roserade and Qwilfish are still pretty relevant, but at the same time, both of them would actually fit onto an FWG core themselves. So I guess maybe the way to answer that would be FWG cores featuring Qwilfish or Roserade would most likely be more powerful due to the natural synergy on top of maintaining a niche as the only remaining bulky Spikes users? I dunno, the question is pretty theory-based in itself. That's the best I got.

 

[rainbowumbreon]

what i did in a froslass free meta

i have been using gligar a lot more and dropped my rapid spinner

i found i didnt have to worry as much about hazards with out them fast spikes running around all over the place.I also (on another of my uu team ) have been using offensive lo roserade,lo special rain dance kingdra,and cb victini.This offensive core i find very effective as giving any of these pokes a free turn is a big liability.

in all honesty i dont think froslass should be banned to be fair i think its a positive influence it the meta game.it is a very frail pokemon and my favorite pokemon umbreon shuts it down pretty well :)

 

[Explorer]

rainbowumbreon, was your entire team based around rain, or did you just give Kingdra Rain Dance to make it an independent sweeper? This core definitely has much more potential without Froslass as Spikes decrease in usage.

Now that I think about it, a Froslass ban could be exactly what Qwilfish needs to come to UU. Froslass was the preferred Spiker in UU, but if it goes, Qwilfish's usage will likely rise as people will be looking for a Spike-setting replacement. Qwilfish's good physical bulk, relatively high speed, and Taunt make it an excellent Spiker in UU. Since its usage is so close to the 3.40% threshold in the June stats, it could come to UU if Froslass goes to BL- provided we have another tier shift.

 

[TPO3]

rainbowumbreon, was your entire team based around rain, or did you just give Kingdra Rain Dance to make it an independent sweeper? This core definitely has much more potential without Froslass as Spikes decrease in usage.

Now that I think about it, a Froslass ban could be exactly what Qwilfish needs to come to UU. Froslass was the preferred Spiker in UU, but if it goes, Qwilfish's usage will likely rise as people will be looking for a Spike-setting replacement. Qwilfish's good physical bulk, relatively high speed, and Taunt make it an excellent Spiker in UU. Since its usage is so close to the 3.40% threshold in the June stats, it could come to UU if Froslass goes to BL- provided we have another tier shift.

Seeing as he ran a Fire-type on his team, he probably just used Rain Dance specifically on Kingdra.

If Froslass goes to BL, I could definitely see Qwilfish's use rising, although we unfortunately (at least as far as I am aware) won't have any more usage-based tier shifts, which means it's doomed to be labeled "RU" for eternity. However just because we slap the RU label on it shouldn't stop it from getting usage. Qwilfish is a great pokemon in this tier, as it can switch into Fighting-types like Heracross and Mienshao relentlessly, set up spikes, heal itself with pain split, cripple switch-ins with Thunder Wave (ie: Zapdos, Raikou, etc.) and more. Qwilfish is great in this tier, and I'm pretty excited to see where it ends up landing for the UU Suspect stats, with Froslass removed from that ladder.

 

[kokoloko]

Okay I'm extending the suspect ladder only period until the 5th. The regular ladder should come back on the 6th, and identification stage will end on the 13th.

Voting will begin on the 14th. Sorry for the delay guys; I've been really busy and Showdown being compomised recently didn't help.

 

[Explorer]

While we are eagerly awaiting the results of the Froslass test, let's talk about something else in UU that would likely benefit from Froslass going to BL (if it does)...

Above here I have what are probably the 6 most common Ground-types in UU right now. So, I'll ask a few questions to bring up the discussion:

• What are your favorite sets to use on these Pokemon?
• How do you work around the more common sets?
• How would these Pokemon enjoy Froslass's ban?
• What other Ground-types to you find effective and in what roles?

 

[Aecor]

Claydol because it resist EdgeQuake. Also this: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-40342696

Turn one

 

[PTJon7]

Nidoqueen @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 96 HP / 252 SAtk / 160 Spd
Modest Nature
- Earthpower
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Stealth Rock/Fire Blast

To me personally Forslass getting banned would greatly benefit Nidoqueen, as it was impossible for Nidoqueen to beat Froslass 1 v 1 and I have a tendency to lead with Nidoqueen.

Claydol is still bad in my opinion, many more things than just Froslass shut it down. Magic Coat should be a staple on Claydol though, but I guess if it was then Magic Coat would lose it's surprise factor which is mainly why it works.

 

[Explorer]

Rhyperior is probably my favorite Ground-type in UU, because it has excellent physical bulk, is a reliable source of Stealth Rock, and gets excellent coverage in its moves.

There are two sets I'm particularly fond of:

Rhyperior (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP/4 Atk/252 Def
Nature: Impish
-Stealth Rock
-Earthquake
-Dragon Tail
-Rock Blast/Stone Edge/Toxic

This set plays to Rhyperior's strengths. It can almost always get SR up turn 1 bar a Taunt or Xatu/Magic Coat. Earthquake is the main STAB since it has perfect accuracy and hits 3 of UU's top threats for super-effective damage (Chandelure, Victini, Raikou). Dragon Tail lets me phase out stat boosts and rack up hazard damage, which is useful if I'm using Rhyperior on stall teams. Depending on the nature of the team, I can either use a second STAB (Rock Blast if Froslass stays in UU, Stone Edge if it gets banned), or, if my team is fond of spreading poison, Toxic can be a helpful alternative, since Rhyperior has the bulk and surprise factor to spread it to bulky Waters switching in and the like.

Rhyperior (M) @ Choice Band
Trait: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP/78 Atk/168 SpD
Nature: Careful
-Earthquake
-Stone Edge
-Megahorn
-Avalanche

The Choice Band set is ridiculously powerful with some of the best one-Pokemon coverage I've found. The two STABs are obvious for maximum power. Megahorn hits Shaymin and Umbreon very hard, among other things. Avalanche is used over Ice Punch since Rhyperior is ridiculously slow and will usually be moving last. It is mostly for Flygon and also hits Flying-types very hard when I can't risk a Stone Edge miss.

The EVs are designed so Rhyperior lives a Modest LO Giga Drain from 252 SpA Yanmega. It can then proceed to destroy Yanmega with Stone Edge or Avalanche.

 

[Magical Magmortar]

This is probably my favorite Ground type in UU right now. Awesome bulk, great coverage, and access to stealth rock just make it even better if Froslass leaves. Fire Blast can be used for bronzong, thunderbolt for bulky waters, focus blast hits snorlax and other normals, and sludge wave and earth power are great stabs. I honestly think this is one of the best sr setters in the tier.

might edit later about other ground types lol

 

[chimpact]

Nidoqueen will probably get the most out of a frosslass ban. But that's assuming it will even get banned in the first place. It just seems like frosslass was meant to disrupt Nidoqueen. Being able to potentially ohko with ice beam and prevent rocks from being set up with taunt is pretty big.

Nidoqueen has a pretty good niche because it has pretty decent typing and bulk to take super effective hits from bulky mons (swampert, rhyperior, bronzong, blastoise) and 2hko them back because of its great coverage and access to sheer force. It's average speed is actually not bad, just because it outspeeds what it needs to and can live hits from what it can't outspeed.

I don't think swampert or rhyperior would get any more love just because of how vulnerable they both are to grass knot. Even if they get less usage, I would still use grass knot just because they're so difficult to take out with neutral unboosted moves. [Obvious bias]

I also think Claydol will stay garbage because it has too many roles to fulfill and it can't do all of them effectively. It has awful offensive presence, which makes it set up on by a lot of pokemon. It can't rapid spin on any ghost type used to spin block, so why try to use rapid spin on it? It has a multitude of weaknesses and isn't that fast so its an average stealth rock user. It's just such an overated pokemon because it has some useful resistances and a unique movepool. Instead of burdening a pokemon with multiple roles you can use different pokemon to perform those roles better.

 

[Explorer]

Nidoqueen will probably get the most out of a frosslass ban. But that's assuming it will even get banned in the first place. It just seems like frosslass was meant to disrupt Nidoqueen. Being able to potentially ohko with ice beam and prevent rocks from being set up with taunt is pretty big.

Nidoqueen has a pretty good niche because it has pretty decent typing and bulk to take super effective hits from bulky mons (swampert, rhyperior, bronzong, blastoise) and 2hko them back because of its great coverage and access to sheer force. It's average speed is actually not bad, just because it outspeeds what it needs to and can live hits from what it can't outspeed.

I don't think swampert or rhyperior would get any more love just because of how vulnerable they both are to grass knot. Even if they get less usage, I would still use grass knot just because they're so difficult to take out with neutral unboosted moves. [Obvious bias]

I also think Claydol will stay garbage because it has too many roles to fulfill and it can't do all of them effectively. It has awful offensive presence, which makes it set up on by a lot of pokemon. It can't rapid spin on any ghost type used to spin block, so why try to use rapid spin on it? It has a multitude of weaknesses and isn't that fast so its an average stealth rock user. It's just such an overated pokemon because it has some useful resistances and a unique movepool. Instead of burdening a pokemon with multiple roles you can use different pokemon to perform those roles better.

Exactly! Claydol really isn't very good for setting up rocks and spinning. You want rocks? Swampert's your guy. You need a spinner? Blastoise can lend you a hand. You want Ground + Ice coverage? Nidoqueen can do that and more. The point is that Claydol is by far the worst spinner in UU--it's really hard to believe that it came out of RU at all, as that's where it belongs.

Claydol because it resist EdgeQuake.

So does Flygon (and Torterra). Plus Gligar can force Rock-types out and poison the switch-ins.

 

[Aecor]

Why does everyone try to piss all over me for using Claydol? I don't openly go to teams and say "brah, you're using a Dusclops, get it together." I like Claydol because it has been on my team since the beginning (That and Suicine), and I like the utility it gets. I find it hard to run a team without a Spinner since I play conservatively. I need a SR user, so I like how Claydol gets both! Also, the meta game is full of heavy hitters, so I feel like recovery on a water is important. My favorite water is Suicine who happens to be bulky, as it can take hits from both side. But, to each his own.

 

[Warb]

I'll start up an entirely different discussion now:

Lately, I've been finding myself using less and less scarfers on my teams. Is it just me or are scarfed Pokes just too easily prepared for and punished? Instead of a scarfer, I'd often use two or more priority users to deal with faster threats. What is everyone's opinion on that matter?

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I usually use one scarfer on my more offensive teams, since I feel Speed is pretty nice to handle the fast threats. The two Pokemon that I use for Scarf are pretty much Mienshao and Krookodile, simply because they have the potential to sweep a team late game, and they still have merits that make them good Scarfers. Mienshao imo is still a pretty good Scarf user simply because it outpaces everything in UU, hits insanely hard, and the biggest draw imo is U-turn, which means Mienshao can attract common Fighting-type answers such as Cofagrigus and use them to grab momentum, which is awesome. Krookodile, on the other hand, is pretty cool with Moxie and its good coverage, so in the late game it can sweep with an attack to provide me a neat win condition late game. Basically, I usually use only one Scarf mon and I usually look for something that can revenge kill but has sweeping potential (and has enough Speed to be effective at it).

Though there are other ways aside from Scarf to handle faster threats, although my main problem with priority users is that Aqua Jet is kinda weak and Sucker Punch is rather shaky to use at best; although Azumarill and Bisharp/Honchkrow don't do terribly at picking off faster opponents. (the latter two are nice as sweepers which is nice). I'd say the reason priority moves are probably getting better for faster threats is mostly because of plenty of faster mons running around such as Scarf Mienshao, but also the amazing Speed boost Sharpedo and stop its sweep short (although too bad Sucker Punch and Aqua Jet are the only viable priority moves in the tier).

Just my thoughts.

 

[Aecor]

I feel like every team I build, I have to have a scarfer. Having a choiced scarf is like having an answer to almost anything that is fast. There are plenty of hard hitters, such as Darmanitan, Mienshao, and Victini, that just do work as a scarfer. I just feel like Physical Scarfers are better than Special Scarfers--I almost never use a special scarfer.

 

[PTJon7]

I'm more inclined towards bulky offense in UU, but on regular offensive teams I usually use a Scarfer. I definitely think special Scarf users aren't very good, mostly because they lack U-Turn which I think is a must have on any Scarf user. That move alone makes Scarferers worth it in my opinion.

 

[Aecor]

I guess special scarfers get Volt Switch, like Zapdos and Raikou, but that's a bit too predictable. I feel like expert belt special Pokes are generally better, since there are so many "counters" to special threats that you can catch Mons off guard. But yeah, on stall or bulky teams, I would recommend a hard hitter. For faster or balanced teams, definitely go with a scarfer. It basically gives you an answer to like LO Darm and the works.

 

[noknuckles]

Chandelure is a pretty decent special scarfer, as overused as it is. It's at a weird speed tier where it outspeeds pretty much anything that isn't scarfed and is outsped by just about every thing that IS scarfed.

It does its job of chasing out any threatening non-scarfers without priority. IIRC it outspeeds stuff like Raikou and Azelf, though it definitely doesn't want to be switching into a Raikou TBolt (or sub for that matter). It also has Trick for some added utility

It has its limitations but it does its job.

Not to say I disagree about physical scarfers being better. Darmanitan for life!

Actually, Azelf can be a good special scarfer with U-Turn.

 

[Patrick1088]

Darm is imo one of the best scarfers. Its speed tier lets it reliably check heracross, krookodile, chand and riserade whicu give my teamz a headache. An immunity to wow helps with sableye something that shao and non-guts hera cannot boast. That 140 attack plus sheer force allows it to just pummel through pokes that shao and hera struggle against like the nidos.

I always runa scarfer to cleanup and recently darm has been on every team. As far as a special scarfer is concerned i think theyre better off with specs or expert belt. Volt switch is a terrible move to be locked into with swampeet rhyperior and the nidos everywhere. U turn allows you to grab momentum every time although volt switch is great on cobalion...

 

[noknuckles]

I love Darm JUST to eat up Sableye's WoW. The problem is that it is weak to Rocks, so it doesn't really like switching in and out very often, making it an awkward U-Turn Scarfer to use. This is where Mienshao's rock resistance is helpful. It can go in whenever its safe and U-Turn out with pretty much no cost. Granted Mienshao is so fragile that it's difficult to find it safe switch in opportunities, but it's not like Darm likes taking hits either.

I still like Darm just because its superpowerful nuke is much safer to just spam. Whenever I face Shao, I'm always scared of it, but as long as my ghost is alive, my opponent won't dare to fire off HJK. Flare Blitz has its fair share of risks (Flash Fire), but nowhere near as prohibiting as HJK.

Volt Switch sucks to get locked into against ground types (you forgot Flygon and Gligar) but a lot of electric types also run HP Grass, so it's not like Swampert/Rhyperior is a safe switchin to choiced electrics

On the topic of revenge killers, would anyone consider using Speed Boosters in that role, or is that just stupid? It's basically like running LO with Scarf speed for free. I know that Sharpedo and Yanmega are thought of as late-game cleaners, but in my head, Sharpedo's speed is essentially scarf Darm speed (well, 10% worse because they tend to run Adamant) and it has good coverage so it could act as a kinda pseudo scarfer. Yanmega's 4x rock weakness is, however, problematic if you expect it to do anything more than a 1 time switch-in.

 

[Patrick1088]

Stealth rock is annoying but not the end of the world. Its not going to deter strong fire types like victini and darm from attacking. Even if darm takes out a key poke on the opponents team like zong, registeel, etc it did its job. As far as shao vs. Darm as scarfer its tough to choose. I find wow and hjk accuracy deters me from using shao sometimes.

I thought the majority of darm are jolly in order to outpace opposing darm and positive natured krookodiles and hera?

As far as sharpedo and yanmega as revenge killers i suppose they can be used. The problem that i have is that they need protect in order to check speed boosting foes like dd scrafty. If they boost when you protect you are sure to be in trouble. That extra turn can cost you the match where a reliable scarfer can threaten and check immediately.

 

[KM]

Subsitute varients of speed-boosters are just as viable, I find. Primarily, because the protect set is so dominant, people don't expect it, and they will usually switch/boost on the turn that they think you'd protect, allowing you to get a free sub up. Also, it allows you to dodge status quite nicely. Normally, if you're say, a Sharpedo against a Blastoise, you have to either switch or try for the 3HKO with Crunch (if even that). However, with Sub you can Sub on the toxic that they usually go for and then go from there (iirc scald might not even break sub out of torrent).

The final advantage of Substitute is that it allows you to run a very effective Liechi (or Petaya I suppose) set. Instead of the damaging 1.3x boost from Life Orb, you get a static 1.5x attack boost that can really help you with sweeping. Definitely a set that more people should try out.

In other news, there's a set I've been working on a joke team (it features all of the underappreciated/bad pokes/sets in UU I could think of ;)) that's actually worked out really well.
I'm interested to see if you guys think it might be viable.

Houndoom @ BlackGlasses
EVs: 252 SpA/252 Spe/4 Atk
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Dark Pulse
- Pursuit
- Sucker Punch

It's sort of a mixed version of a popular Skuntank set in NU with triple-dark stab. Although you have minimal investment in attack, STAB, decent base, and BlackGlasses helps boost your Pursuit and Sucker Punch to a point where you can deal a lot of damage to top tier threats, as well as getting some useful priority. BG-boosted Dark Pulse and Fire Blast are for the great stab options.

The reason I like this set is that it distinguishes Houndoom from being more than a sub-par fire type in the shadow of all the monsters of UU by focusing on his dark stab. I'm curious to see what you guys think of it.

Some useful replays of the team for reference:
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-44179253 - Houndoom isn't the MVP in this, but he weakens the opponents team to a point where the monster that is Enduresalac hera can clean up.