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np: UU Stage 13 - Ghosts N Stuff

Discussion in 'BW UU' started by kokoloko, Jul 7, 2013.

  1. PTJon7

    PTJon7

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    That was actually a pretty interesting match to watch Kitten, I enjoyed it. By the way though your Houndoom is Timid, probably want to be changing that one... Are the Black Glasses just for bluffing purposes? In that replay it seemed like a little bit more damage output from a Life Orb would definitely help Houndoom out.
  2. Moose V

    Moose V

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    I've actually used a trapping set pretty similar to this, but I went with 248 hp, 252 attack, 8 Spe, adamant, Crunch over dark pulse and taunt over fire blast. Immunity to fire and psychic is pretty huge in uu and I mainly used this guy to get rid of chandy for my specially defensive mew but it actually stopped a lot of things like sigilyph and victini as well. I ended up replacing this guy with banded lax but it was definitely worth using.
  3. Kitten Milk

    Kitten Milk [22:59:31] <KittenUU> 241 of which are fellacious
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    Yeah, it's threatening to more things than you'd think. It practically forces all Victini's to go for U-turn no matter what, as well as hard walling a lot of things. Xatu, Sigilyph, Monoattacking Mew/Azelfs and Chandelure all have a hard time doing much to it, and they get punished for staying in as well.

    It's not even that helpless against bulky waters - it's special defense isn't awful, and Dark Pulse does 40-50%, which means that you can usually stay in on them and just 2HKO, as there are a number of factors that can go positively. First of all, they probably won't scald when you stay in, predicting the switch. Even if they do go for scald, it'll do 60-70% and has no chance of burning, whereas you have a 20% chance to flinch.
  4. Warb

    Warb

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    I've been using Houndoom for an awfully long time now (like ... every second or third team I build includes a Houndoom), and I'd usually advise for the more standard spread of 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 SpAtk, Hasty Nature, Life Orb and Fireblast, Crunch, Pursuit, Sucker Punch.
    The reason I'm advocating max Atk + LO is because Houndoom can actually do stuff outside of dealing with choice locked Victinis and Chandelures (also stuff like Expert Belt Victini with Focus Blast or Sub + 3 Atks Chandelure with HP Fighting etc. all can play around Houndoom fairly easily).
    BlackGlasses without Atk investment doesn't even net you the Pursuit Kill on stuff like Victini when they switch out at 75% (which btw max Atk + LO just barely does), which is rather meh.
    LO boosted Sucker Punch from 252 Atk Houndoom can also handily kill a lot of fast but frail stuff like Mienshao (about 40%), non-bulky Kingdra (about 53%) or Darmanitan (OHKO after SR). Also worth mentioning is the fact that apparently 4 SpAtk LO Fire Blast has more damage output than 252 SpAtk without LO.
    IMO, the only notable advantages of the Kitten Milk Set is BlackGlasses Dark Pulse, which hits slightly harder than 252 Atk LO Crunch. This has the distinct advantage of OHKOing offensive Cofagrigus after SR instead of "just" doing 70% (which may allow Cofagrigus to either set up TR for the rest of its team or to just HP fighting Houndoom to death if it is low HP) and hitting Rhyperior nearly twice as hard as LO Crunch does. And maybe the fact that BlackGlasses Houndoom can actually wall mono attacking Sigilyph and safely fish for crits instead of getting LO stalled to death.

    tl;dr = IMO 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 SpAtk, Life Orb, Hasty (or Lonely) with Crunch instead of Dark Pulse is the better overall set.
  5. noknuckles

    noknuckles

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    I worded it poorly. I meant that Darm is 10% better than Sharpedo. Sharpedo was the subject of the sentence, and hence 10% worse speed is referring to Sharpedo. Sharpedo tend to be Adamant and Darm tend to be Jolly.

    I find that WoW is a non-issue for Mienshao. You just need to know who uses WoW, and never switch into a WoW user (not like you wanna switch Mienshao into Cofag anyway). You can U-Turn out of WoW, and just switch out of Sableye. I like to think of Darm's ability to switch into WoW a plus for Darm, and not a minus against others.
  6. Kitten Milk

    Kitten Milk [22:59:31] <KittenUU> 241 of which are fellacious
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    I think Dark Pulse is more useful than you might think.

    252 Atk Life Orb Houndoom Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 97-114 (26.79 - 31.49%) -- possible 4HKO
    252 SpA BlackGlasses Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blastoise: 135-159 (37.29 - 43.92%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO

    The point of the set isn't really as a pursuit trapper, it's more of just a check to dangerous fire and psychic types as well as a good mon with a lot of surprise factor. When people see Dark Pulse or Fire Blast, they immediately assume that I don't have Sucker Punch or Pursuit, let alone both. Furthermore, when they see no Life Orb Recoil/Lefties Recovery, they automatically assume that I'm scarfed, or even specs (if it doesn't hit/kills them). Also, the fact that there is no LO recoil is a plus :3

    I find Dark Pulse's flinch chance to be a lot more useful than Crunch's defense drop as well. If a Blastoise comes in at 55% (A point where both max attack LO crunch and max SpA dark pulse 2HKO), I'd much rather have a 20% chance to flinch than a useless 20% defense drop.

    All that said, I'm not detracting anything from the standard physical/mixed set as a good revenge killer and a Pursuit trapper, that's just not the main goal of this Houndoom.

    and @PTJon7 I run Naive, not Timid (if you were worried about attack drop). If you were just saying +SpA is more useful than +Spe, I think I'd rather have the jump on neutral base 100s as well as other base 95s and 90s (Modest LO Victini, Adamant Band Victini, Roserade, etc..) than get that extra boost of power.
  7. Warb

    Warb

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    I guess you're right. Your set is probably supposed to hit other Pokes than the regular Houndoom does. Although I just find the uninvested base 90 Atk to be really lacking :p
  8. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    Voting has ended, Froslass is now BL. Stay tuned for updates regarding Victini's suspect test.
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  9. Mazz

    Mazz UU's Workhorse
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    With Froslass now BL, I can see Accelgor usage becoming even more popular. People are used to having a fast spiker to fall back on, and Accelgor fits that bill to a "t". It also has access to a much higher Speed stat, meaning it can taunt literally everything bar Tornadus and Sableye. Much like Froslass, Accelgor is nearly guaranteed two layers, and if it runs Final Gambit, can actually beat out opposing Spinners. I imagine that Qwilfish and Roserade will see spikes in their usage (see what I did there?), as the community as a whole is more used to seeing them, but Accelgor will definitely become a Pokemon to watch out for. This also harms the usage of Pokemon like Cinccino and Beat Up Weavile in a way, albeit more Beat Up Weavile than Ciniccino, as they were used primarily to shut down Froslass.

    Personally, I loathe hazards. They're a pain in the ass, and with the lack of decent Spinners, they're an even bigger pain. I won't miss Froslass, but I'm not elated that it's gone. Personally, I never used it, but from what I've heard, it was a rather favourable Pokemon. Moving forward, how does the rest of the UU community feel about Froslass leaving?
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  10. Warb

    Warb

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    Hmm, it certainly opens a bit of space for teambuilding, which is something I always like.
  11. Moose V

    Moose V

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    Accelgor doesn't get taunt.


    I think that with froslass gone, the trend towards life orb offensive roserade will reverse and we'll see much more of the standard defensive spikes set. Qwilfish will definitely rise in popularity while spinners (especially foresight spinners) are likely going to drop in usage.
  12. RotomPoison

    RotomPoison

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    Smogon just bans everything dont't they...

    Mind if I ask, why not only did this suspect test randomly start but Froslass was banned almost 2-1. I've never seen anyone complain about it before the test, Victini I have but it's still not broken. As far as i've seen UU was fine before the Froslass test so why mess up a balanced tier?
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  13. /B/utterfree

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    UU is not balanced. Don't lie to yourself and then criticize the Suspect team for doing a good job of finding out what makes UU imbalanced. We're not all ban-happy and the generalization that we are needs to get kicked in the balls and called a bitch.

    Not everything that gets banned to BL is absolutely broken. However, everything that is in BL so far has put a major strain in teambuilding if nothing else. I'm not surprised that Sand Stream has yet to be freed, because there's still going to be debate as to whether or not Stoutland should be BL to compensate (as it is honestly the only thing that'd be broken with Sand Stream freed for a number of different reasons such as decent Normal typing to not have a constant redundancy be present, and an awesome Speed tier to make Sand Rush useful in contrast to Sandslash). The tier has quite a few roadblocks it needs to clear before I am ever going to consider UU "balanced."

    The Suspect Test also wasn't random; the timing had been placed and there was a thread to schedule the time for which Suspect Voting would take place. Pretty sure Froslass was complained about before the Suspect Test, as was Victini. People elected them to be considered Suspect over Raikou and Heracross (which, good on them - Victini is still more broken than either Raikou or Heracross at the end of the day) and actually talked about which 'mons would be Suspected before October comes and Gen VI makes a whole new world. I'm sitting on my magic carpet waiting for Gen VI, but I am at least lurking to see how the tiers are coming along now.

    And right now I am happy that Froslass is out of the tier. I've been waiting for this moment since the era where Deoxys-D was suspected, due to it, Deo-D, and Roserade all being awesome Spikers who were too good for the tier at the time.
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2013
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  14. RotomPoison

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    I didn't mean literally bans everything, I never said anything like that. I'm just saying that I didn't think Froslass (or in the future Victini) were that broken and that UU was a lot more balanced than some other tiers. People have different opinions. The reason I called UU balanced was that when you compare it to OU it's a joke, even though I play Ubers more. You can say you don't think UU is balanced, and you probably play it more then me, but usually i'm not on the ban side
  15. Moose V

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    I'm inclined to agree with you and I too have actually disagreed with some of the bans and unbans smogon has enacted prior to this. I agree that UU is a fairly balanced tier, but I actually voted to ban froslass for a couple reasons:
    1) UU rapid spinners are quite shitty compared to the spinners in other respective tiers. Thus, a pokemon that's designed to get up as many spikes as possible from turn 1 seems a little too powerful by nature.
    2) Froslass's presence in UU forced every team to run one of the following to prevent it from getting up spikes: beat up ambipom, beat up weavile, taunt azelf, sableye or taunt tornadus. Now a lot of these options really don't fit well into a team's synergy while others are downright shitty.
    3) Even scarf pokes can't really handle Froslass well as mienshao has to rely on hitting 2 stone edges in a row, as does heracross. Victini, if it V-creates, means froslass can outspeed on the next turn and get up another layer or destiny bond. Flygon, if it stays in, risks getting ohkod in return. The only common scarfed poke that's guaranteed to keep Lass at 1 layer is scarfed Darmanitan. It's also worth mentioning that, with scarfed pokes, there's 51% chance that they will end up being locked into struggle after froslass is gone (cursed body), meaning that something can easily come in and set up after froslass's death.
    4) Froslass performs amazingly regardless of team synergy (though hopefully something else will have stealth rocks). This means it can perform well on both hyper offense and hyper stall.
    5) Doesn't get stopped by xatu because of its stab.
    6) One of the only reasons against the ban was that it was predictable but lately I've been seeing more varied sets so it was even losing that.
    7) It can spin block its own hazards and can even shut down the rare foresight user w/ taunt. Thus, one has to kill it before one can get rid of the spikes and because of destiny bond, this can be very hard to accomplish w/o losing a pokemon in the process.
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  16. RotomPoison

    RotomPoison

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    1) I play Ubers, try spinning there especially in sun

    2) Not exactly, once you kill Froslass you can spin the spikes away since most teams won't run 2 ghosts, Froslass HO though can make that hard, so i'll give you this

    3) This too

    4) This too

    5) This too...

    6) It can't really vary that much, but I have used Spikes + 3 attacks with LO to get past spinners, and Froslass does get BoltBeam without resorting to Hidden Power

    7) This is the thing that seperates it from other suicide leads like Deoxys-S. Even with Taunt, it couldn't spinblock and didn't have any way to stop a spinner like Excadrill in sand (if it wasn't leading for some reason) and Tyranitar can beat it because samd breaks sash, however Froslass doesn't have rocks. Destiny Bond is another advantage Froslass has and what you said is true, so while I can see Froslass as good, I still don't completely agree it's broken for the same reason Deo-D wasn't, it can be limited to 1 layer and has ways to be forced into situations where it has to choose which is more important, setting hazards or disabling the opponent. Multi-hit moves, sand, and other things that kill and break its sash in 1 turn. Otherwise it does its job well, and many other people play UU more then me, so they have their own opinions.
  17. Mazz

    Mazz UU's Workhorse
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    The biggest issue with Froslass, was as I080I pointed out, but the Rapid Spin users in UnderUsed are terrible beyond belief. Neither Claydol, Blastoise, Hitmontop, or Cryogonal capable of beating the common spinblockers in UU, Froslass actually being one of them. At such a Speed tier, there's only about five Pokemon that could Taunt it, and two that could just flat out kill it, those being Beat Up Weavile and Cinccino. This alone made preventing Froslass from setting any number layer of Spikes rather difficult, as you basically had to restrict a teamslot for Froslass specifically.

    According to DougJustDoug's Characteristics to a Desirable Metagame, it could be argued that Froslass' ability to successfully lay two or more layers of Spikes so efficiently took an aspect of skill away from the UU metagame. If you could get said layers of hazards up and keep them from being spun, which in this tier isn't that hard, then you don't need to worry about having to predict your opponent's play to such an extent, as even the weaker attacks on your team will suffice in wearing the opponent down enough to a point where switching in becomes impossible. This also made phazing strategies, as seen in the Deoxys-D metagame, not popular, but they existed. It's not exactly a stall team, but it takes the hazard-stacking identity from it and spams phazing moves, preventing any real damage done to the one team and quickly wearing out the other. This somewhat leads into the next argument that Froslass hampered Variety, as you could really only build a team consisting of five members and a check to Froslass. Some teams were lucky enough to incorporate that check into their team, but many were unable to do so, specifically with niche Pokemon like Beat Up Weavile and Ciniccino.

    In order to prevent the centralization seen during the Deoxys-D metagame (even though it would never happen to such an extent), Kokoloko, RT., and the other leaders of the UU tier made a decision to put Froslass up for suspect. Was it a broken threat? No, but it affected aspects of the metagame in a negative light, and was inevitably a piece that needed to be removed. Despite being found "not broken", I do believe that the banning of Froslass is a positive note to end the generation on, as it effectively moves BW UU in a direction towards a balanced metagame much like DPPt UU.

    It could be argued that during suspect tests, that those who do make the voting requirements can sometimes take that power and become "ban-happy" and remove an element of the metagame just for the sake of saying they were behind the process of banning something from said metagame. However, it wouldn't have been enough to sway this vote, as many players did express valid reasons for as to why they felt Froslass need to be shown the door.


    Hopefully we can get over this "argument", as Froslass will not be returning. Let's move forward, consider how the metagame will evolve from this point onward, and discuss the implications of Victini's soon-to-be ban.
    silenced likes this.
  18. RotomPoison

    RotomPoison

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    "Let's get over the idea of banning everything"

    "Victini will definitely be banned"

    ...
  19. Double Electric

    Double Electric

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    One way to handle opposing Froslass was to use another Froslass with either Icy Wind + Shadow Ball or Shadow Ball + Ice Shard, (the other moves would be Spikes and Taunt). This didn't restrict the team quite as much as using obscure things like Beat Up users and minimized the stupid luck factor when going for a Taunt speed tie at the beginning. Although, saying that Froslass could be used to handle Froslass isn't really saying much in favor of keeping it around.

    To be honest, the metagame could probably easily adapt to Victini being banned because Darmanitan fills Victini's primary niche (a choice scarf user) very snugly. Granted, the only substantial reason to use Darmanitan over Victini right now is that Darmanitan is less vulnerable to being revenged by Pursuit Snorlax which often isn't that hard to wear down anyway. Victini on the other hand, has more effective coverage, is initially faster and most notably can buttsecks unsuspecting players with its special/mix set. But even so, Darmanitan fills in the gap almost as well.
  20. Mazz

    Mazz UU's Workhorse
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    You're putting words in my mouth and arguing a moot point. I'm asking you to get over the idea that Froslass being banned was "unnecessary" by your terms, and asking the community to move forward. Victini, unlike Froslass is going to be banned because it is a broken suspect.
  21. Moose V

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    I'd actually like to here the community's thoughts about just Victini now that Froslass is gone. As of right now, I'm inclined to say that it's not worth banning at the moment for a few reasons:

    1) Victini is stealth rocks weak, spikes weak, pursuit weak, sucker punch weak, aqua jet weak, easily revenge killed after firing off a v-create and has to live in a tier where 2 pokes are not only immune to its main stab, but get boosts from it.

    2) Choice Banded Snorlax is now very popular and beats any victini set 1 on 1 plus pursuit trapping.

    3) At the end of the day, Victini has only base 100 attack/special attack. While this may seem irrelevant because its main stab move is very powerful, a Darmanitan's flare blitz does more damage than Vic's V-create (if both have same item and nature).

    4) UU is absolutely filled with bulky waters. This means that V-create at least is not broken in UU
  22. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest I Love Goomy
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    Hmm, now to explain my thoughts on Victini. I can easily see why Victini was chosen to be a suspect. This thing has obscenely powerful STAB moves in V-Create and Blue Flare, both of which hit very hard despite Victini having only 100 base offensive stats. Victini also has a fabulous offensive movepool. It has Grass Knot, Bolt Strike, U-turn Zen headbutt, Focus Blast, Psyshock, etc. which makes it insanely hard to wall. The fact that Victini can run physical, special, AND mixed only sweetens the deal; so Victini is very unpredictable, a lot pf Victini are physical, so you can surprise 'em with a special set and now their Swampert or Rhyperior is probably dead. Victini also grabs momentum with U-turn, and it also can wear down Snorlax pretty badly with Psyshock+Focus Blast, and Snorlax must be in top top shape if it plans on countering any Victini set. Those weaknesses are surely bad, and Victini does without a doubt have a pretty bad defensive typing. But, its unpredictability and power make it a powerful force; and unlike other mons like Kingdra, Victini does not lose its danger level even after the surprise is gone.

    At the end of the day, I'm not so sure about Victini. I can definitely see why it's being suspected, but I'm not pro or anti ban atm.

    As for what may happen following the removal of Froslass, I've also been trying out Scolipede as a fast spiker for my team, and honestly, it works wonders. Scolipede's excellent Speed means it gets Spikes up almost as well as Froslass, and it outspeeds Tornadus and +! Scrafty too, which is awesome. While Scolipede can't spinblock, it still does well with a spinblocker, and Scolipede can lay spikes but also have a strong offensive presence with its great STAB Megahorn and QuakeSlide coverage, so it can lay some real hurt. Swarm+Sash is cool, so when it's done, it can fire extremely powerful Megahorns as a final gambit to lay down some great hurt before going down. I feel Scolipede may also see more usage, as that thing has a lot of potential to do well in UU.
  23. RotomPoison

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    Fair enough, not everyone will agree on everything

    This. If Victini wasn't Psychic type then it would be a lot better, but at the same time Pursuit isn't that common
  24. TPO3

    TPO3 Never practice; Always perform.

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    How exactly does CB Snorlax beat Victini 1 on 1? CB Victini 2-shots it with V-create (yes, even with Thick Fat), and Focus Blast from the special set will 2HKO it with hazard suport as well. Special Tini is also significantly less pursuit-weak with base 100/100 defenses that aren't dropped by V-create. Also, Darmanitan's Flare Blitz might be more powerful, but Victini doesn't hurt itself with Recoil via V-create, and Victini also has much superior coverage in Bolt Strike (nailing Bulky Waters) secondary STAB in Zen Headbutt as opposed to Rock Slide and Superpower.

    Can you elaborate on your last point a bit? I really don't understand why we shouldn't ban Victini because one of its moves "isn't broken". In fact, I'm pretty sure that's completely contradictory to the reason it's being suspected. It's because Victini has not only great power in V-Create, but amazing versatility with its special movepool as well.
  25. Aecor

    Aecor

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    Holy balls, I am glad Froslass got banned. That shit was unkosher. It basically enabled HO to happen, made Sharpedo a bigger threat, and made teams easier to build (when centered around Froslass).

    Now about Victini, I think it's a bit ridiculous that people are crying about it since it has "no true counter." That's like saying any Poke that is hard to go up against should be banned. Allow me to compare Victini to Chandelure. Specs Modest Chandelure has about one true counter, Snorlax. If Snorlax runs Pursuit, it is gg for Chandelure (assuming it runs flame body and flame body does not activate).

    Victini can run mixed, yes. Other than Virizion, Victini is probably the only viable mixed attacker. The thing is, people think "oh, Victini is broken because it can get passed usual counters." Well, to that I say no shit. That's like saying, "OH MAN, GUTS SD HERACROSS BEATS MY EQ TOXIC ROOST SR GLIGAR, DAMN GOTTA GIVE DAT BAN HAMMER." No.

    If Victini runs a Physical Scarf Set, bulky waters such as Suicine and Slowbro can wall Victini for days. What about Bolt Strike? For fick's sake, if you stay in on an unSTAB Bolt Strike twice in a row, there is something wrong with you. If you aren't carrying an electric resist/ground type you have other things to worry about. Zen headbutt is only good for hitting like Qwilfish and the likes, whereas U-Turn provides momentum. V-Create hits like a truck (granted it's a scarfer), but is anyone notice the god damned drawbacks? All of a sudden, you're susceptible to almost every fast attacker in the tier--and pursuit. The nice 100/100/100 bulk is suddenly stripped away from Victini.

    The Choiced Banded set works in the similar manner, except that you better be predicting carefully...then again, if anything is running a Specs/Band set, you better be predicting carefully.

    For the special set, it is hard walled by Umbreon and Snorlax. Sure, focus blast. You have to have LO and some prior damage...AND TO HIT TWICE. For those of you who says that isn't that much of a cost, you need to play more Pokemon. If you claim that you've never missed 2 Hi Jump Kicks in a row, you can have a slice of pizza....and a slice of my ass. Sure, Victory Star somewhat alleviates this issue, but come on, it's only 77% accurate. Grass knot kills Swampert and Rhyperior. You don't say. A fat ass 4x weak poke to Grass gets OHK'd by a life orb base 100 fully invested Grass type move? What is this. What, FERROSEED GETS OHKD BY HP FIRE FROM SHAYMIN. WHAT IS THIS I DON'T EVEN. The Special Set has to be scouted for...and you have to keep in mind, Victini is now only base 100 speed, easily revenged, and a sturdy special wall will have no problems with the proper support.

    For the mixed set, if you're losing more than your Swampert/Rhyperior, you need to play more. For god's sake, I only lose Claydol to a Special Victini...that should say something to all your haters.

    The issue with people thinking Victini is broken (And I'm pretty sure it's gonna get banned since everyone here apparently don't like things that need prediction to play around) is that they think all Victini sets have the revenging capabilities of the scarfed set, the power of the band set, and the versatility of the special set. You guys only get to choose one of the three options, pick your poison. That is all.
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2013
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