Would you use something like Impish and force more speed to be run to outspeed Crobat or keep Jolly and invest more in Attack/bulk? Which is the more efficient spread?
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np: UU Stage 2 - Uptown Funk You Up
- Thread starter Calloflochie
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Jolly is more efficient than Impish. Say you want to hit 381 Speed to pass 200 EV Crobats. With a spread of Jolly, 248 HP/216 Def/44 Speed you hit 260 Def. Impish requires 180 EVs to hit the same Speed, so you only end up with 248 Def despite the boosting nature.
Really it depends on what benchmarks you want to hit, how much bulk you need, etc. I have two teams with bulky Aero right now; one is mostly optimized for Speed while the other is a very bulky set meant to do things like switch in to choice-locked Sacred Fires and Flate Blitzes and stall them out with Roost.
Neither aromatisse nor granbull cope with the SD orb sets, sure granbull isn't 1hko'd by a +1 facade but considering its shaky recovery and rocks it certainly doesn't stand much of a chance. You basically have to run some kind of fast flying type to deal with it- and a mispredict on what kind of set it can be using can shit all over what you think might check it. Like you could switch bat in thinking it's SD orb, but then it smacks you with a band stone edge. You might think it's band and switch into granbull only to be surprised by it swords dancing in your face. Having to dedicate a minimum of 2 team slots to deal with one mon and it still having a good chance to take something down with it isn't healthy for the tier imo.
Hera still loses to offensive pressure. While yes the SD orb set is very strong, it is overkill many times and doesn't end up do what it seem it could especially against certain types of offense. Stall and more passive types of balance hate this thing the most, and as such have to prepare the most for it. Hera is not the first mon that punishes opposing teams for not giving enough offensive pressure, ex Nido's Hydra Entei, and none of those are broken. I personally think that this meta is going to be the Hera meta just like the ones before Feb were Rachi's (not the best example bc Rachi was def not healthy for meta), Hera encourages more proactive play which just makes for a different meta, not a unhealthy one.
I've been handling mence the same way I've been handling haxorus. Bulky pokemon like vapreon, suicune, chesnaught, forretress, gligar, cresselia, M aggron, hippowdown or a fairy. Without 2 boost (or the moxie set) I've hardly had any issues with it. It really needs that boost to function. Sure an amazing late game cleaner, probably the best, but I find its situation to be the same as a late game haxorus sweep. A threat for sure, but hardly limiting team building or overcentralizing. In fact I've been underwhelmed by its performance. I thought it would be scarier than this but heracross is more of a threat than this
EDIT: although I'll give Salamemce this over haxorus and other set up sweepers. It finds much more opportunity to do so with better bulk and a flying typing
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I don't see how chesnaught or gligar are checks to it at all, it sets up on both and commonly runs Ice Beam. Florges loses to DD iron tail, but Granbull can beat it and Aromatisse can beat it assuming they're healthy. For the other examples, forry loses to FB, and Vaporeon has to run ice beam (Remember Zygarde?) Hippo can lose to Hydro Pump or Draco Meteor on special sets, same with Maggron to fire blast on special sets. Cress is a great answer (but also was a great answer to Zygarde and Lop/Gallade, but that didn't make them any less broken.) To me, what makes Mence ridiculous is the versatility of sets it can run; including DD which you mentioned, Scarf which you mentioned, as well as MixMence, Specs, Bulky Defog and even CB. The fact that you never know what's coming and you have a chance to just get 2HKO'd by a specs Draco Meteor when you switch in your Suicune is really crazy. It also hits a really good speed tier. The two best things about it for me are:
- The fact that it can beat almost all of its counters with great coverage moves or different sets
- how well the DD set works, esp. against offense without "bulky" mons because of its speed
despite what it may sound like, I don't think it's broken, but I do think it should get a suspect test in the future. Every set has its stops, and things like granbull, Aromatisse and Cresselia are great surefire counters. If you think of mence as only a cleaner, however, you think of it incorrectly.
I didn't know salamence got ice beam.
When you look how each set is played it shouldn't come as a surprise as to which it is throughout the match. If I see a salamence come in early-mid game, I can easily assume it's the specs or mixed set meaning I have very small chance of fear of iron tail on it. If I see it late game then it's safe to assume DD set. Yes very versitile to get passed its counters. Lol hell you might run into a weird set like. Draco meteor, fire blast, iron tail, outrage. Which will definitely allow you to get passed certain walls but probably won't get you very far either. The other problem I have with DD too is that you have to run Jolly to avoid being revenged by scarf hydra, scarf krook and the rare but still usable darmanitan, meaning you aren't hitting as hard. Lose out on intimidate because you are going to need the extra fire power from Moxie. Also against offensive teams you do have set up opportunities but compared to our previously banned Mons, salamence doesn't compare. I agree it might be suspected, but as of now UU has plenty enough to handle Mence and any set it happens to run.
On another note has anyone noticed how balance this metagame is? I've been running a lot of stall with success.
On another note has anyone noticed how balance this metagame is? I've been running a lot of stall with success.
I agree; with Terrakion and Serp gone, stall, balance and offense all have some really nice toys. Stall is still very strong but not overwhelming - SD Hera is a major threat to stall, but its status orb puts it on a timer, and smart playing can beat it without requiring super-niche counters, so it threatens it without making it unviable. Balance no longer has to shoehorn awkward Serp and CB Terrakion counters onto their team, and Mence and Hera both fit in well on bulky offense. HO still has fun toys like Entei to play with, and while it misses Serp, Moxie sweepers fill some of that same niche.
This is one of my favorite metas in a while, definitely my favorite since the Mega-Zam ban (no argument as to the unhealthiness of Alakazite, by the way - I just thought that meta was fun, healthy or no). I'll be interested to see how it continues to shake down as things settle more. While I can see arguments for BLing Mence, I hope it sticks around for a little while longer so that we have a few solid weeks to see how it plays.
This is one of my favorite metas in a while, definitely my favorite since the Mega-Zam ban (no argument as to the unhealthiness of Alakazite, by the way - I just thought that meta was fun, healthy or no). I'll be interested to see how it continues to shake down as things settle more. While I can see arguments for BLing Mence, I hope it sticks around for a little while longer so that we have a few solid weeks to see how it plays.
What's the rationale behind wing attack on maero?
It has the same power as Aerial Ace, but the only merit it has is much higher PP.
eh 32 pp vs. 56 pp. is akin to asking yourself "Do I want a 100 ct. Q-tip or 300 count Q-tip?" Besides, having the extra effect of never missing is still kind of good.
ya it toally comes into effect vs all those bright powder users and sand veil mons...oh wait it literally doesnt matter which one you use.
wing attack's animation is hella rad and aerial ace's is lame af
When Serperior was still around I used AA, because there was always the chance of needing to take out a Serp that switched in on a Defog. Now that Serp's gone there is literally no difference except the 24 PP, which might potentially matter in a stall versus stall matchup (especially as MAero doubles as a stallbreaker).
It hasn't come up yet, but since there is no downside, why not?
It hasn't come up yet, but since there is no downside, why not?
So unless I'm horribly mistaken, Rock Head Tyrantrum was just released. How soon can we expect it to be active on the ladder?
GlassGlaceon
My heart has now been set on love
um this is sorta a re-intro sorta a compliment its a kind of post i guess
- UU is def one of the most balanced and fun metas ive ever played and brings me back to BW2 which was my fave meta so despite how much crap kokoloko gets about "stop banning things kokoloko LOLOL my original joke-o-loko xDDD" gj
- im not sure about how i feel in regards to heracross rejoining the metagame i mean it does do major work to offense with the scarf set and every other set snaps bulky offense down to stall pretty much in half from prior experience, and aromatisse is very easy to wear down with heracross so i wouldn't call that a completely 100% reliable stop for stall.
- hi im glass i play stall
- I have really liked stall in this meta regardless, all of the teams look very aesthetically pleasing which is something that draws me to a meta, and there are some solid defensive cores and cool underrated mons you can use to spice standard.stall up a bit. Such things include but are not limited to
SubRoost DTail Kyurem+Spikestacking
Roar Reflect or just resttalk roar cune are real cool
Curse MegaPert, who serves as a nice darm switchin and a great wincon
Counter Forretress to stop Stray SD Toxicroaks and Heracrosses from 6-0'ing ur teams
I would like to ask though, being new to this meta, how do the standard stall teams handle haxorus and heracross outside of granbull or aromatisse, as they're both very easy to wear down? So far I've been relying on a speedier Cress set from RU to handle things like panda and heracross and haxorus along with other shaky checks, but is there anything solid that just always takes them on ?_?
- UU is def one of the most balanced and fun metas ive ever played and brings me back to BW2 which was my fave meta so despite how much crap kokoloko gets about "stop banning things kokoloko LOLOL my original joke-o-loko xDDD" gj
- im not sure about how i feel in regards to heracross rejoining the metagame i mean it does do major work to offense with the scarf set and every other set snaps bulky offense down to stall pretty much in half from prior experience, and aromatisse is very easy to wear down with heracross so i wouldn't call that a completely 100% reliable stop for stall.
- hi im glass i play stall
- I have really liked stall in this meta regardless, all of the teams look very aesthetically pleasing which is something that draws me to a meta, and there are some solid defensive cores and cool underrated mons you can use to spice standard.stall up a bit. Such things include but are not limited to
SubRoost DTail Kyurem+Spikestacking
Roar Reflect or just resttalk roar cune are real cool
Curse MegaPert, who serves as a nice darm switchin and a great wincon
Counter Forretress to stop Stray SD Toxicroaks and Heracrosses from 6-0'ing ur teams
I would like to ask though, being new to this meta, how do the standard stall teams handle haxorus and heracross outside of granbull or aromatisse, as they're both very easy to wear down? So far I've been relying on a speedier Cress set from RU to handle things like panda and heracross and haxorus along with other shaky checks, but is there anything solid that just always takes them on ?_?
SD Haxorus is one of those things that I sorta feel you can't use super hard stall to deal with. Some people, Koko included, have posited that true stall is dead. There's been too much power creep over the last few generations. You HAVE to have some offensive presence. But beyond that, SD Haxorus is just not very good against some more offensive archetypes which tend to rule UU, so it's extremely uncommon. If nothing else, you won't find it higher on the ladder. Heracross is actually dealt with very easily in stall. Mega Aerodactyl and Crobat are the tier's two best switch-ins (maybe outside of PDef Cofagrigus, but Maero and Crobat are way better in general), and they both OHKO with their Flying STAB. Meanwhile, they act as general offensive checks to a lot of dangerous Pokemon in the tier and generally are very good Pokemon on stall.
I'm a little curious as to why you think Aromatisse is easy to wear down, though. It gets Wish, and unless you keep running into people who spam Roar/Whirlwind when you try to Wish/Protect, it shouldn't have that much trouble staying healthy.
On the subject of your last sentence, there are no defensive answers like that in UU. Frankly, that's a mark of a more balanced metagame, you can't just throw a Pokemon like Heatran or Rotom-W on every team and call it good, UU requires a lot more thoughtful teambuilding. For example, Guts SD Heracross is something making tracks in UU right now. Neither Aromatisse nor Granbull can comfortably take a Guts Facade after a Swords Dance, so while either of them work fantastically for slowing down dangerous Dragons like Salamence, you'll need another answer for Heracross like Crobat that can scare it out and make it waste the turns it spent boosting.
I'm a little curious as to why you think Aromatisse is easy to wear down, though. It gets Wish, and unless you keep running into people who spam Roar/Whirlwind when you try to Wish/Protect, it shouldn't have that much trouble staying healthy.
On the subject of your last sentence, there are no defensive answers like that in UU. Frankly, that's a mark of a more balanced metagame, you can't just throw a Pokemon like Heatran or Rotom-W on every team and call it good, UU requires a lot more thoughtful teambuilding. For example, Guts SD Heracross is something making tracks in UU right now. Neither Aromatisse nor Granbull can comfortably take a Guts Facade after a Swords Dance, so while either of them work fantastically for slowing down dangerous Dragons like Salamence, you'll need another answer for Heracross like Crobat that can scare it out and make it waste the turns it spent boosting.
I don't think there is a form of stall known as 'true stall' which has died; I think stall has just evolved to meet the requirements of the metagame. It is true now you need some offensive presence in the form of bat at least, but that is mostly due to hera and before that serperior. Before that, Zygarde reigned, and stall was the best play style in UU. There will always be imbalances which favour one play style over another, and when it favours HO, stall has to adapt. When I'm using Crobat I don't feel like I'm compromising some ideal of what true stall should be, I feel like I'm using a solid, decently bulky mon with good resistances that just happens to be very fast.
That said, Hera is dominating the meta right now and this isn't very fun for stall at the moment. Most sets are handled by fairies but the Flame Orb SD set is the truly dangerous one. Granbull, Lord of the Fairies, is probably your best answer, but even then:
+1 252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 288-339 (75 - 88.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
As for SD Hax, it is countered by Bronzong (lol), but something like Forry usually has options to bring it down. He also won't like locking into Outrage with fairies or steels on your team so you can use that to your advantage.
That said, Hera is dominating the meta right now and this isn't very fun for stall at the moment. Most sets are handled by fairies but the Flame Orb SD set is the truly dangerous one. Granbull, Lord of the Fairies, is probably your best answer, but even then:
+1 252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 288-339 (75 - 88.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
As for SD Hax, it is countered by Bronzong (lol), but something like Forry usually has options to bring it down. He also won't like locking into Outrage with fairies or steels on your team so you can use that to your advantage.
Sorry, I meant full stall, which has in generations past been teams with little-to-no dedicated attackers. CroCune is about as aggressive as full stall got. Nowadays full stall is dead or dying.
Haxorus gets Mold Breaker. Bronzong is not a counter.
Haxorus gets Mold Breaker. Bronzong is not a counter.
What about the based lord counter forretress?
I mean, sure it may be a bit tough to keep it at full hp but despite hearing some interesting things about it I haven't seen it in practice so can't justify the use; but on paper it seems like a great idea as a catch-all (kinda) stop to setup sweepers and physical attackers.
I mean, sure it may be a bit tough to keep it at full hp but despite hearing some interesting things about it I haven't seen it in practice so can't justify the use; but on paper it seems like a great idea as a catch-all (kinda) stop to setup sweepers and physical attackers.
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NP Pory-Z can 2 or 3hko it at +2, I think. Not sure, though.
yeah, it can beat random set up sweepers like haxorus, aboma, toxicroak, slurpuff, some mence sets, etc; but you have to make sure to keep it healthy, and you usually have to run gyro ball and toxic which means you have to give up volt switch.
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