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np: UU Stage 3 - We Are The Champions

Discussion in 'BW UU' started by JabbaTheGriffin, Oct 5, 2011.

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  1. TheBaron

    TheBaron

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    Oh, Contraire. Hippowdon is like someone who is kind of awkward, but when he is around his friends (Clefable, to name one), he is pretty cool, and invites everyone out for pizza after him and his Magic Guard girlfriend have just walled the entire sans-Focus Blast metagame and allowed for a Rhyperior or Stoutland sweep. He'll invite Alakazam to dinner too, because none of those Focus Blast bullies care to mess with him. Since Psyshock is seldom seen in Hippowdon's neighbourhUUd, his wallage is seldom inhibited. His little bro, Hippopotas, is competent, but will always be hurt by the fact that his family and teachers have to shove Eviolite up his butt every morning to get him to function, and Hippowdon eats all the Leftovers so he can't have any. Hippopotas is too puny (only one pore) to actually attack anything, so he has to resort to Toxic to actually hurt anything. Everything about him screams "STEEL TYPE SWITCH IN NOW!" Hippopotas is not very bulky, and can't revenge kill really, really, really slow Pokémon the way his brother can. To put it simply, Hippowdon is not broken. Roserade tears his sand gushing ass apart. Frequently. Like every day. And we are talking about the most used Pokémon in UU. Being pwnd by #1 makes you NEVER broken. Hippopotas should be moved down to BLII because he is so weak.
  2. Snunch

    Snunch
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    In regards to megathread activity: there was little because most of us think that a hippo ban is trivial. I won't repeat the same mistake again.

    why i think hippo is bl (open)
    Hippowdon is a tricky pokemon to evaluate. It plays two major roles: countering nearly every physical attacker that can’t hit it with a super effective attack and providing sand stream support as a direct way of supporting Stoutland. With phazing, recovery, and a high attack stat, Hippowdon is difficult to set up on. Hippowdon is broken in UU because both roles have significant detrimental effects on the metagame, and a ban on Hippowdon is the best way to fix both.

    Make no mistake; Hippowdon walls nearly every physical attacker in UU, the only exceptions being super effective hits and outrageously strong CB attacks from pokemon like Heracross. Even adamant Darmanitan can’t break Hippowdon. The difference between Hippowdon and other walls such as Cresselia is that Hippowdon is not easily exploitable. With a high attack stat, a solid movepool, reliable recovery, and phazing, Hippowdon is both difficult to switch into and difficult to set up on. A high number of powerful special attackers in UU can’t comfortably come in on Earthquake, and Hippowdon can run a very viable specially defensive spread that allows it to take on pokemon like Alakazam and Chandelure in exchange for losing the ability to counter unboosted Darmanitan. Hippowdon reminds me of Chansey, except that Hippowdon can both phaze and actually attack. Judging solely on its ability to wall such a significant portion of the metagame alone, Hippowdon is an elite UU wall.

    Although it is certainly not broken itself, sandstorm as a passive effect should not be ignored when discussing Hippowdon. By virtue of being a great pokemon, Hippowdon has made sandstorm a common field condition. This was not true with Hippopotas because it was a bad pokemon and therefore very rare. Sandstorm as a common field condition in UU, however, restricts the number of viable strategies in UU and decreases diversity. Life Orb sweepers without recovery are virtually dead, as the benefits of using LO are in every case outweighed by the fact that the pokemon in question is suicidal. For example, LO Raikou can break through the bulky ground types that normally haunt it, but losing the extra 6.25% health per turn makes it a clearly inferior set in practice. A larger concern, and one that should receive more attention, is sand making rendering many recovery moves moot. This heavily detracts from the metagame, as many pokemon that would otherwise range from viable to key staples in the metagame. Pokemon like Arcanine could be centerpieces of this metagame, and pokemon like Tangrowth could be viable physical walls, but sand renders them completely unviable. Again, I’m not arguing that these factors solely warrant a ban on sand, just that they contribute to the big picture.

    Alright, now for the big issue: Stoutland. Anybody who plays UU for a day can tell that Hippowdon + Stoutland is a broken combination. Stoutland has good natural bulk and spams a type with good neutral coverage, and can even switch in safely and pursuit the ghosts who would stop it. This makes a team of offensive pokemon unviable without using one of the precious few rocks / steels that actually check Stoutland. The top of the ladder reflects this, with every team either being a sand clone or carrying one of the precious few Stoutland checks. The silver lining is that for the most part, bulky rocks and steels stop Stoutland cold. This would make it risky to use a sand team in UU; much like rain dance teams, you would be removing skill from the match in order to play a match that was almost entirely decided by team matchup. This is why rain dance teams do not work well on the ladder, and it is the risk that balances out the power of Stoutland. However, with Hippowdon, this silver lining disappears. Every bulky rock / steel that makes a good check to Stoutland is dealt with quite easily by Hippowdon. Cobalion, Bisharp, most Rhyperior, Registeel, etc. are all hard countered by Hippowdon. This removes the inherient risk that should be associated with using a sandstorm team and is not a balanced strategy. By contrast, Hippopotas actually loses to pokemon like SD Cobalion and is easily exploited. Therefore, banning Hippowdon but allowing Hippopotas to stay would balance out sand.
  3. sax king

    sax king

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    wait i'm a little confused. Is hippowdon BL, or are people arguing that it should be?
  4. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    Another important thing about those calcs, Heysup, is that you decided to factor in a Pokemon that doesn't actually check Stoutland, like Heracross. Cobalion also can't 2HKO Hippowdon with Close Combat, as the defense drop ensures it will die to the first Earthquake. Two Swords Dances won't make up for that damage either, leaving Hippowdon to easily 2HKO with Earthquake.

    The reason I usually don't bring Spikes into arguments is because while it is a popular strategy in this metagame, every decent player will be carrying either a Xatu or Rapid Spinner to prevent it. There's no telling who will win out in the end. And assuming Sand teams can use Spikes as well makes it a lot more dangerous than a non-weather balanced offensive team could ever be. This only further reinforces the idea that Sand teams are just better than your average team and Hippowdon is mostly to blame for that. Nothing else gives us a stupidly fast effective sweeper and punishes its counters as hard as he does.
  5. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    it is almost likely to be BL - this is looks likely with a majority of BL votes. what we are doing is posting our reasons why for the uu community (and we will be sure to try and work more in the megathread throughout the next one)
  6. DoABarrelRoll

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    No, it should be BL, but it's not yet.

    Back to the topic... Weavile, azelf and dusclops should be BL.
    Weavile: unless you a priority move(especially Mach Punch), if he grabbed a Swords Dance, you're pretty much doomed. He's also extremely fast.
    Azelf: I hate azelf with a passion everytime I use uu teams. He's ridiculously powerful with nasty plot, and he has good defenses for a sweeper.
    Dusclops: With eviolite, dusclops becomes an evil annoying pokemon that can only be stopped by chansey and some fire-types(most dusclops carry will-o-wisp). also, due to Dusclops's low HP, Pain split screws you over.
  7. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    Yeah guys our next suspect discussion should be over Dusclops.

    Regarding big hippo v. baby hippo, I don't think calculations really convey the level of difference here - you could have said something similar for Abomasnow v. Snover in Gen IV, but hail was obviously much more manageable once we moved Abomasnow to BL. Yeah Evolite didn't exist back then, but it's still a very pertinent point.

    The simple fact is that, in standard battle conditions, big hippo does much, much more to help the team. It doesn't roll over and die to a special attack, it can handle physical threats who don't use boosting items much easier, it's actually a threatening offensive presence...cherry picking three or four calcs doesn't change all that.

    That said, I'm not convinced that a BL decision is as clear-cut as many people are making it. We know that big Hippo is a much better Pokemon than little hippo, but I'm still not convinced that this pushes sand over the edge into "overcentralizing" territory. Hell, I was really successful using a team that had no normal resists for a while (although that I retired that team for unrelated reasons).
  8. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    I decided to factor in a powerful common Choice Band user that jumped out at me because of its damage range. The other 2 are both very effective checks to Stoutland.

    As for your theory about Cobalion vs Hippowdon: it can just use Iron Head + Close Combat to beat Hippowdon. However, even if this Cobalion doesn't carry Iron Head, 2 Swords Dances make Close Combat deal 90.95% - 107.14%. With hazards on the field, I'd take that bet.

    I don't know why I'm wasting time on this, because Cobalion can just CC and switch out because of how non threatening Hippowdon is even with his improved attack from Hippopotas.

    I don't think Abomsnow and Snover are really analogous to Hippowdon and Hippopotas simply because of the nature of Eviolite and each of the Pokemon. I'm sure we can both agree that Abomasnow is significantly more offensive than Hippowdon. Eviolite makes the Defensiveness/Special Defensiveness gap a lot smaller than the offensive one.

    Abomasnow has absurdly powerful Blizzards and Wood Hammer, as well as powerful Ice Shard to cause shit for faster Pokemon. Snover can't do that. Hippowdon sets up Stealth Rock and switches into physical attackers that it can wall. Hippopotas can do a lot of that. Hippowdon's Attack is important, but the improvement to Abomsnow's Attack / Special Attack makes a significantly larger difference than Hippowdon's.
  9. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    Weavile and Azelf should stay, they aren't even that broken.

    Dusclops on the other hand, idk. But still, I'd probably consider banning Porygon2 or Sableye first over Dusclops. Dusclops pretty much screams Taunt bait (hi sableye/whimsicott) and he's pretty much forced to use night shade for an offensive attack. Not only does he scream Taunt Bait, he screams toxic bait, etc. P2 has some actual offensive presence and Sableye should go on the chopping block in the very least before Dusclops, especially when it packs the 3rd fastest Taunt in the metagame (and Tornadus/Whimsicott don't always run Taunt).
  10. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    I think you are overexaggerating a lot in the bolded sentence.
    For some reason you assume that the only things that can wall Stoutland are Rocks and Steels which is just not true.
    From the top of my head i can think of Porygon2,Gligar and Sableye that wall Stoutland AND can also beat Hippo.Mind you 2 of those 3 can also beat Alakazam with the right set.
    And 2 of them are absolutely perfect pokemon on their own and not niche pokes(Gligar is a useful poke,but its biggest asset is dealing with sand teams in UU).

    I know that Hippo is a worthy suspect but the last thing i want to see is senate members misguiding the whole community and its opinion for Hippo via false and exaggerating claims.
    I know that this post may come as insulting to you but it is not.I don't imply you are misguiding anyone on purpose.You just wrote your personal opinion and in the meantime you exaggerated without noticing.Everyone does that.
    But you,of all people,should think very carefully of what you post about the suspects,because your opinions are going to heavily influence a lot of the UU community.
  11. truevillany

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    To further your point, Calm Tangela w/ Eviolite can eat stoutland's Fire fangs and stab moves, and put it to sleep, knock off its orb/set up leech seed, and giga drain it to death.

    It also completely counters Hippo (come to think if it that thing is kinda underrated).

    Neither of them need to be banned if u have a good team set up
  12. Amire

    Amire

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    The thing that makes sandstorm broken in UU is not necessarily Hippo + Stoutland + Alakazam, but Hippo + Stoutland + Alakazam + Roserade. Roserade is definately broken in the current metagame and it's what in my opinion breaks sand. Roserade is broken because it's so unpredictable and will next to always give you 2 or more hazards up. When you face Roserade, you have no idea if it's LO offensive, specially defensive, scarf or specs and with such a wide and usefull movepool you never know if it has sleep powder or if it's just the defensive set. The specially defensive set laughs at porygon and sets up a few hazards and leaves with nearly full HP (after a rest). Sableye would've destroyed sand if it wasn't for roserade. Roserade really needs to go, it's just too good for the current metagame and it's what makes sand broken.

    Hail + Snow cloak is broken, but not hail in itself. I do not see how Abomasnow alone breaks hail. He has below averedge stats and every other hail abuser is NU, so how does he break hail?
  13. DoABarrelRoll

    DoABarrelRoll

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    Hail + snow cloak broken? Are you crazy? why is glaceon NU?
  14. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    Amire is obviously referring to Froslass. Glaceon is NU for completely different reasons...
  15. Moo

    Moo Professor
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    Here's my hippo Paragraph:

    Show Hide

    Hippo makes Sandstorm a bit overwhelming in UU. The reason it does this is because it's miles better than Hippopotas, and usually means that a sandstorm user can keep its weather in play with ease. Hippowdon is much bulkier than Hippopotas, and can even take certain special attacks from the likes of Empoleon and Roserade (around 60% from Scald / Giga Drain) and do a considerable amount of damage back. Pair it with Roserade, which can switch into most things that give Hippowdon trouble, and you can take advantage of bulky waters by setting up on them. Hippowdon's ability to set up Stealth Rock with ease also puts a great hindrance on Hail teams.

    Also, it pretty much dominates most things that give Stoutland (best sand sweeper) trouble, which also increases sandstorms effectiveness. Things like Aggron, Rhyperior and Registeel are good examples of these. Hippowdon can easily switch in to these, and attack them or set up Stealth Rock. That's a bit of a strange point, but when you compare sand usage to pre-Hippowdon times, you will see that it's true. The reason for this is because its Attack stat is considerably higher, and it is bulkier too, and has Leftovers. So basically, Hippowdon makes Sandstorm a bit too good, and I think it needs to go.


    Basically I just feel that it's too easy to keep Sandstorm up with Hippo because it's so bulky. It also makes it very easy to sweep with Stoutland. It wasn't this easy when sand had to use Hippopotas, which means that Hippo is the problem, not Stoutland
  16. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    I respect the opinion of the senate but i think most of you are exaggerating.
    Moo wrote in his paragraph that Aggron and Rhyperior,2 pokes that wall Stoutland,cannot get past Hippo while they both 2hko with SR and 1 layer of Spikes.

    kd24 said that the only things that can wall Stoutland are rocks and steels.

    Everyone keeps saying that the things that beat Stoutland cannot beat Hippo.

    Everyone keeps saying that ghosts are not checks to Stoutland.

    And i ask why??
    Why all this hyperbole?
    Here are some pokes that wall Stoutland AND are not rock or steel types AND can beat Hippo:

    -Tangrowth/Tangela
    -Porygon2
    -Sableye
    -Dusclops
    -Gligar
    -Hippowdon(with Toxic to deal with Stoutland and other Hippos)
    -Slowbro

    And this is the list of non rock/steel type counters.
    So if we include rock/steel type counters(that can also beat Hippo) the list grows bigger:

    -Rhyperior
    -Aggron

    There are also checks that can beat Stootland AND Hippo:

    -Froslass
    -Chandelure
    -Mismagius
    -Cobalion
    -Empoleon
    -Omastar
    -Escavalier

    Finally if we include the checks/counters to Stoutland that cannot beat Hippo the list grows even bigger:

    -Aerodactyl
    -Registeel
    -Golurk
    -Bisharp

    I don't think that the tier doesn't have enough options to deal with Hippo and Stoutland.
    I just thing that everyone needs a little time to get used to the way the things are and find the apropriate solutions.
  17. JabbaTheGriffin

    JabbaTheGriffin Stormblessed
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    A few of the senate members already posted their paragraphs but here's the full set anyway. Final vote was 6-1 for BL, so I'll post a new stage topic for the new metagame.


    Moo/BL (open)



    SJCrew/BL (open)


    Heysup/UU (open)


    kinglerdude24/BL (open)


    Twist of Fate/BL (open)


    Snunch/BL (open)


    DetroitLaughoutloudCat/BL (open)


    I'll post the next np thread once I talk to someone to get the tier on the server updated.
  18. Kaos

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    Hippowdon banned? Here comes the Hail hate again...

    I don't agree with this ban at all. In order for Sand teams to provide the support Stoutland needed to thrive, they had to expose themselves to a ton of very exploitable weaknesses. Porygon2, Mamoswine, CB Rhyperior, and Torterra are just a few of the pokemon that you could plop on to beat Sand outright.
  19. CrazyBacon

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    after hippos gone the next order of banning will most likely be snow warning + Snow cloak. It only stopped because hippo got brought down.
  20. DetroitLolcat

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    Porygon2 does welll against Sand, I'll give you that.
    Mamoswine cannot break any main bulky Waters like Slowbro or Milotic, which are around on Sand teams.
    CB Rhyperior needs 2 hazards just to have a chance at beating Hippowdon.
    Torterra? Do people use that? Well it can't set up on any Sand Pokemon, and is revenged by Stoutland.
  21. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Rhyperior needs SR and spikes, which are common battle conditions,to 2hko Hippo after lefties 98.62% of the time not ''just to have a chance at beating Hippowdon''.

    EDIT:I meant 2hko fixed!
  22. Kaos

    Kaos

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    Hell yeah he does. He's none too shabby against non-Sand either.

    Mamoswine rapes Milotic. Suicune has no good recovery and is easily worn down after a few switch-ins. Resting makes him deadweight. Blastoise was becoming an increasingly common bulky water choice due to Spikes dominance, and he didn't take an EQ well either. Only Slowbro really gets him, but recently I haven't seen much of him because everyone wants their bulky water to be able to check Chandelure.

    2 hazards? Just use Roserade; she has no problem getting them up against basically any special attacker or bulky water. So fucking broken...

    Torterra is uncommon, but very effective as not only a Rock Polisher, but also an all-out attacker or Leech Seeding tank. With Wood Hammer he smashes through Hippowdon and the likely bulky water, and with EQ he rapes just about everything else Sand has. Stoutland doesn't even come close to OHKOing even with no defensive investment, and can be OHKOed in return.

    The point is, there were a lot of options available that could, if not single-handedly beat, at least cause serious problems for the standard sand team build that was all over the ladder. Even the best sand teams were often very weak to all of these threats. I could go on to name more if it suits you...

    2HKO, but other than that: yes, exactly. Plus Hippowdon doesn't OHKO with his own EQ iirc, meaning that even without hazards, Hippowdon has to pray for no crithax as he continually Slacks Off to get back to the full health he needs to beat Rhyperior...
  23. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    I don't know either because you know I have Roar and just switched into Stoutland's Return to be put in range of an EQ KO. When was the last time you've seriously beaten Hippwodon with SD Cobalion? You're not gonna win that one, trust me.

    However, if you're not carrying a real spinblocker or it gets Pursuited by Stoutland, it suddenly becomes very easy to get rid of those hazards. The problem with Spikes is that it requires additional turns of setup unlike Stealth Rock. That gives your opponent opportunities to spin. Spikes is a battle in and of itself. And again, assuming Spikes against Stoutland checks makes it much, much harder to win (something else people had to deal with when facing Sand). I'm really doing anti-Sand supporters a favor by not emphasizing it as much as you are.

    Those three are just awful checks. Offensive P2 can't take two Returns and defensive can barely take them after SR and Sand, not even mentioning Spikes (which frankly make literally everything easier to kill and make for easymode arguments). Slowbro is murdered by two Crunches/Wild Charges after SR.

    Gligar and Sableye have gotten popular lately, but Tangrowth, Tangela, and Dusclops are just not being used. If you're going to scrutinize our arguments, which are much more a product of play experience than theory, at least consider the fact that we're simply not fighting any of these obscure Pokemon you're pulling out to 'beat Sand' (and somehow still not affecting their utter tier dominance). That's like me saying "Stoutland learns Ice Fang, not a counter." Most people would use Roserade as their Grass-type of choice in this tier because it's not murdered by Ice Beam, can work as an offensive threat, and sets up Spikes. If you want to use Tangrowth, you have to use something else to check bulky Water-types because he's just not gonna do it. All for the sake of "beating Sand".

    Dusclops is just so easy to wear down and set up on in this weather because of his lack of Leftovers. Switch to a Fire-type or Mew and WoW him. Toxic/Taunt. I have seriously not seen anyone good use this thing, even on stall (ToF is primarily a stall player now IIRC, and I've not seen him use this). No reliable recovery either. If you use this guy on a serious team, I suspect you'll be losing to a lot more than just Sand.

    Look Alexwolf, if you use these things and win regularly, I applaud you. But reaching for straws is not the best way to disprove the sheer results Sand has gotten, despite there being a few obscure Pokemon that can potentially ruin its synergy. Remember, it's not just 'Hippowdon + Stoutland' vs. UU, that's the main attraction. There are also Rock-types that can handle P2 (which I can believe Kd24 covered) and Sand Veil abuse (I've lost to a Cacturne before -___-). You can find room for all of these things with a self-sufficient Sand setter like Hippowdon. Good luck doing that with Hippopotas.

    Not when Hippowdon checks one of your physical sweepers and can simply Roar to hack up entry hazards damage on your team, weakening your Stoutland checks. I do agree that we should deliberate further on what to do about Spikes; it's not okay to have walls in the tier simply fail to do their jobs because of free, easy damage. But we do have a couple good spinners that can get rid of them, so I'd rather not crutch it as an argument if I can avoid it. The chances of a Stealth Rock user outlasting a spinner, with there being more Pokemon to set it up and requiring only one turn, are much higher, and it's a lot safer to just assume that instead of your opponent always having Froslass/Spikes Roserade/Deo-D. People are still shocked to see me use Froslass outside of Hail, for goodness' sake lol.

    Hippowdon is a team player. If you are not evaluating it by the sum of its parts as a wall and supporter, you're cutting short its capabilities as a Pokemon. Sand is what makes Stoutland what it is and Hippowdon supplies it. Stoutland would also have a lot more trouble dealing with its most popular checks without Hippowdon to bail it out. Stoutland also cannot check a large number of the tier's physical attackers and wear down special attackers simply through phazing, attacking, and hazards abuse.

    I'd much rather go into battle seeing the little hippo, because it means a lot more viable Stoutland checks crop up without utilizing any ulterior strategies. Spiking might not be a given, but Hippopotas being an easier to beat Pokemon than Hippowdon certainly is.
  24. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Physically defensive Porygon2 avoids the 2hko from LO Stoutland with SR and 1 layer of spikes factored in and at worst will die from SS damage at the end of the second turn.That means that Porygon2 will switch in take the first hit,then take the second hit paralyze Stoutland and then die at worst from SS damage or live with 1-10% hp.So as far as countering goes i would say that a paralyzed Stoutland is as good as dead so Porygon2 has done its job.Some times it dies in the procees but this doesn't mean that he didn't counter Stoutland.
    Also you are right Slowbro dies from 2 WC or Crunches with entry hazards depeding on the item that Stoutland holds so he is not a counter.He is a check though and a good pivot for choiced sets.

    I get what you mean but all i am doing now is looking for solutions.I am not sold on anything.If you ask me my opinion about Hippo i will say that i don't know because i don't think that he has gotten the time he deserves so we can understand if he is truly broken or not.
    So i am not mentioning Tangrwoth and Dusclops as established good pokes in this meta i am just mentioning them as ways to deal with some problematic threats that are popular in UU.Like Gadtrodon in OU,which everyone though that was garbage in the tier in the begining until they got used to it.
    The same can happen with Tangrwoth or Dusclops.Of 'course they are not the best out there,but both pokes have valuable assets for any team.
    Tangrowth is an amazing physical wall with reliable recovery(Regenerator + Giga Drain) and more than decent attacking presence in both sides of the spectrum.Of 'course it comes with some drawbacks but the fact that he deals with one of the best combos in UU,as of now,can possibly be enough of a reason for him to rise in usage.As i said again it's not like Tangrwoth is useless outside of countering Hippo and Stoutland.
    Dusclops is an excellent mixed wall and a spinblocker that can spread status quite easily and spinblock through the entire match.It also pairs wonderfully with any wishpasser which immediately heals him back to full life.
    Anwyay i think you get my point.These pokes have their selling points and now that there are Stoutland and Hippo,there is another reason to use them.Another reason not the only one!

    I don't have a lot of experience with Dusclops so i cannot really tell.After all i am just trying to find some ways to beat Stoutland and Hippo.So the first thing i am going to do is share my thoughts with everyone so we can test how these pokes actually fare against the sand core.First comes the theory and then the practise(not by importance but by logical order).

    As i said again i am trying to find some ways to deal with the annoying core.
    Some of the things i mentioned i have experience with and with some others i don't.My ideas and everyone's ideas might work or might not but we can't tell yet.We haven't spend enough time with Hippo in UU to make a verdict.
  25. fairytale

    fairytale

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2011
    Messages:
    258
    SO happy to see sand go.
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