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np: UU Stage 3 - We Are The Champions

Discussion in 'BW UU' started by JabbaTheGriffin, Oct 5, 2011.

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  1. kd24

    kd24 lemme just whip my dick out and slam it on the table
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    im just going to post my paras fuck it - you can argue points but they are already sent so please dont tell me to edit something - these are for you to look at get a sense of where im coming from concerning hippowdon (jabba and ln already have these):

    ---

    WHY HIPPOWDON IS BL

    there are multiple things we need to consider when making this decision - the most important of which is "why hippowdon specifically" - as others will claim and state when we arent discussing hippopotas.

    what makes hippowdon broken is not solely him the pokemon or solely sandstorm - it is hippowdon summoning the sandstorm. i think this is point that needs to be addressed - it is hippowdons synergy and what he means as a teammate for sandstorm teams that make him broken.

    so before i start talking about hippowdon and hippopotas, let me just explain why hippo summoning sand is broken in the first place - hippowdon creates a completely unhealthy metagame where he combos with pokemon that receive ridiculous boosts with him as a partner - boosts that directly overpower multiple pokemon.

    i can start with the most obvious one - stoutland. there couldnt have been a better match made in UU than these two and its obvious why - stoutland (who can deal with ghosts so we can ignore that) spams choice banded frustrations only resisted and hence forth walled by the scarce amount of rock-types and steel-types. hippowdon in turn wall most of these pokemon, or force them into terrible positions (this is because one of the only "safe" methods to defeating this combo relies on giving these walls choice band or high impact items like life orb, which in turn only makes it harder for them to wall stoutland or for them to defend against any other part of the team, generally geared perfectly towards defeating these threats). many of the same arguments taken from excadrill's arguments apply perfectly to stoutland - he destroys speed tiers and completely forces the meta around himself. imagine in ou, if exca was weaker and forced to use a cb to do damage, but to make up for it, he had a sand partner which completely walled all of his counters - this is why hippowdon is like for stoutland. so why you may wish to argue "stoutland is broken" and there isn't anything wrong with doing that - the offender of non competitiveness is hippowdon who as i said before, creates all sorts of combos that are almost impossible to break through - made even tougher by stoutland (and alakazam).

    i suppose ill get to alakazam next - this is yet another sweeper who absolutely benefits from hippowdon. hippo has the ability to wall what you were using to stop alakazam such as escavalier and non wisp spiritomb - a zam with a substitute provides another form of attack that hippowdon entirely supports and like i have mentioned before - zam requires almost no prediction with a sub and the right teammates. the time for zam to be banned has passed but it doesnt mean we cant eliminate the bigger offender, the pokemon who once again like stoutland, provides yet another pokemon perfect support.

    so "hippo cant wall cb attacks 'that well' and still has trouble with super effective attacks" - my retort is so what? hippowdon doesnt care about that, hes walling the things he is supposed to wall while hitting back hard enough, supporting all the general teammates around him. i can go one step further and mention roserade and a bulky water-type - one again, beautiful type synergy with hippowdon, being able to take the water, ice, grass attacks directed at him, being able to counter more of those threats that would wall your attackers, and setting up spikes / phazing around in the process. this is a combination that beautifully plays itself out for you. the last slot barely matters but you may see a ghost or a scarf flygon or w/e - it doesn't matter much here, this is usually just meant to plug up the holes left. the problem, like i said, is the issue of hippo + the perfect attacking partners + perfect defensive partners - the only way to truly dominate this meta besides using sand yourself is to completely go anti-meta with anti-sand - thats how over centralizing sand is.

    now why hippowdon and not hippopotas? well that should be clear from my paragraphs but i will reiterate it clearly here: hippopotas does not provide the walling or attacking support that hippowdon does. it is not eliminating the counters of zam or stoutland (escavalier and bisharp, things hippowdon could wall can now threaten not only hipppopotas but the whole team structure by default) because it doesnt have the same defensive prowess of hippowdon - the lack of recovery, the decrease of bulk, the MUCH weaker attacking power - they turn hippopotas into a LIABILITY, not a threat like hippowdon. its my belief that stoutland and sand in general becomes very manageable with the liability that is hippopotas providing the sand - and this is why im in favor of banning hippowdon, its his summoning of sand with his unique qualities that creates broken threats and a broken metagame.
  2. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    So I see a common theme in the majority of the paragraphs.

    Hippowdon is broken and Hippopotas isn't because:

    a) Hippopotas is less bulky.
    b) Hippopotas is weak.

    a) Let's look at the damage difference between the two on a couple big Choice Banders: (Adamant) Rhyperior Earthquake, (Jolly) Aggron Aqua Tail, (Jolly) Heracross Megahorn / Close Combat.

    NOTE: Leftovers are calculated into 3HKOes and 2HKOEs

    Vs Hippowdon:
    Rhyperior - 43.57 - 51.42%
    Aggron - 40.47 - 47.61%
    Heracross - 43.81% - 51.67%

    All 3 are 3HKOes with no hazards. All 3 2HKO with 1 layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock.

    Vs Hippopotas

    Rhyperior - 47.05 - 55.58%
    Aggron - 43.52 - 51.76%
    Heracross - 47.06% - 55.88%

    All 3 are 2HKOes with Stealth Rock. All 3 are still 2HKOes with 1 layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock.

    This shows that what's being considered here is one layer of Spikes being difference between broken and unbroken defensively.

    b) Attacking: obviously there is a huge difference here. But does it really matter? Here are a couple common switch-ins for Hippopotas -> can they still switch into Hippowdon?

    Donphan - 19.79 - 23.43%
    Blastoise - 23.48 - 28.17%
    Froslass - 41.39 - 48.97%
    Roserade (Spikes) - 73.28 - 86.25%

    You're better off using Toxic against Donphan and Blastoise - not super common on Hippowdon because you pick between Roar and Toxic. Froslass still switches in, gets a layer of Spikes, uses Pain Split, and beats you down with Ice Beam. Your attack helps against Roserade, but you still need to rely on prediction. My point is that while Hippowdon has higher numbers, do they matter that much? Hippo's role on sandstorm teams is primarily checking threats, setting up Stealth Rock, and spreading Toxic / Roar.

    So the difference between the two is essentially a layer of Spikes and preventing Roserade from freely switching in. Otherwise, with a layer of Spikes and against Pokemon besides Roserade (maybe a few more I didn't see), we are dealing with is effectively the same Pokemon.

    Are we OK with this? I'm clearly not, but maybe you guys can see it from my point of view.

    EDIT:

    Hippow:
    Bisharp - 86.76 - 103.67% - OHKO with hazards
    +2 Iron Head - 55.23 - 65.23% (2HKO)
    Cobalion - 59.25 - 70.37% - 2HKO
    +2 Close Combat - 60.71 - 71.42% (2HKO)


    Hippo (if it were to use Earthquake):
    Bisharp - 61.76 - 72.79% - 2HKO
    +2 Iron Head - 60 - 70.88% (2HKO)
    Cobalion - 41.35 - 48.76% - 2HKO with hazards
    +2 Close Combat - 65.29 - 77.05% (2HKO)

    Still not a huge difference, especially defensively where there is actually no difference. I'm still more concerned about things like Rhyperior. Aggron is there because he's a great Stoutland counter, so it's pretty applicable as well. I didn't avoid these calculations just because I thought they worked against me, I just chose 3 that jumped out with similar damage ranges. I mean, they are just further supporting my point.

    The 2HKOes and 3HKOes are hugely different, but my point was after a layer of Spikes, they are both 2HKOed by those 3 Pokemon.

    I'm not arguing that Hippopotas is anywhere as good as an overall Pokemon. I'm trying to argue that contextual differences between the two are not enough to make one broken and one not broken. A layer of Spikes goes on the field, and they are both similarly 2HKOed by the same things. I think there is more of a valid argument on the Attack side, but it still really doesn't have that many advantages.
  3. JabbaTheGriffin

    JabbaTheGriffin Stormblessed
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    I'd say you're definitely calcing the wrong things there. i.e. you want to look at the comparison between damage taken and damage dealt to threats like Bisharp and Cobalion. And on top of that, I'd say the difference between a 3hko and a 2hko is a huge deal. Not to mention putting those calcs together without mentioning lefties recovery kind of gives the impression that Hippopotas seriously almost takes hits as well as Hippowdon when the lefties recovery is going to be huge over the course of the match.

    I didn't think I'd see anyone try to argue that mini-hippo falls just a tad short of being as good of a Pokemon as Hippowdon.
  4. TheBaron

    TheBaron

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    Oh, Contraire. Hippowdon is like someone who is kind of awkward, but when he is around his friends (Clefable, to name one), he is pretty cool, and invites everyone out for pizza after him and his Magic Guard girlfriend have just walled the entire sans-Focus Blast metagame and allowed for a Rhyperior or Stoutland sweep. He'll invite Alakazam to dinner too, because none of those Focus Blast bullies care to mess with him. Since Psyshock is seldom seen in Hippowdon's neighbourhUUd, his wallage is seldom inhibited. His little bro, Hippopotas, is competent, but will always be hurt by the fact that his family and teachers have to shove Eviolite up his butt every morning to get him to function, and Hippowdon eats all the Leftovers so he can't have any. Hippopotas is too puny (only one pore) to actually attack anything, so he has to resort to Toxic to actually hurt anything. Everything about him screams "STEEL TYPE SWITCH IN NOW!" Hippopotas is not very bulky, and can't revenge kill really, really, really slow Pokémon the way his brother can. To put it simply, Hippowdon is not broken. Roserade tears his sand gushing ass apart. Frequently. Like every day. And we are talking about the most used Pokémon in UU. Being pwnd by #1 makes you NEVER broken. Hippopotas should be moved down to BLII because he is so weak.
  5. Snunch

    Snunch
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    In regards to megathread activity: there was little because most of us think that a hippo ban is trivial. I won't repeat the same mistake again.

    why i think hippo is bl (open)
    Hippowdon is a tricky pokemon to evaluate. It plays two major roles: countering nearly every physical attacker that can’t hit it with a super effective attack and providing sand stream support as a direct way of supporting Stoutland. With phazing, recovery, and a high attack stat, Hippowdon is difficult to set up on. Hippowdon is broken in UU because both roles have significant detrimental effects on the metagame, and a ban on Hippowdon is the best way to fix both.

    Make no mistake; Hippowdon walls nearly every physical attacker in UU, the only exceptions being super effective hits and outrageously strong CB attacks from pokemon like Heracross. Even adamant Darmanitan can’t break Hippowdon. The difference between Hippowdon and other walls such as Cresselia is that Hippowdon is not easily exploitable. With a high attack stat, a solid movepool, reliable recovery, and phazing, Hippowdon is both difficult to switch into and difficult to set up on. A high number of powerful special attackers in UU can’t comfortably come in on Earthquake, and Hippowdon can run a very viable specially defensive spread that allows it to take on pokemon like Alakazam and Chandelure in exchange for losing the ability to counter unboosted Darmanitan. Hippowdon reminds me of Chansey, except that Hippowdon can both phaze and actually attack. Judging solely on its ability to wall such a significant portion of the metagame alone, Hippowdon is an elite UU wall.

    Although it is certainly not broken itself, sandstorm as a passive effect should not be ignored when discussing Hippowdon. By virtue of being a great pokemon, Hippowdon has made sandstorm a common field condition. This was not true with Hippopotas because it was a bad pokemon and therefore very rare. Sandstorm as a common field condition in UU, however, restricts the number of viable strategies in UU and decreases diversity. Life Orb sweepers without recovery are virtually dead, as the benefits of using LO are in every case outweighed by the fact that the pokemon in question is suicidal. For example, LO Raikou can break through the bulky ground types that normally haunt it, but losing the extra 6.25% health per turn makes it a clearly inferior set in practice. A larger concern, and one that should receive more attention, is sand making rendering many recovery moves moot. This heavily detracts from the metagame, as many pokemon that would otherwise range from viable to key staples in the metagame. Pokemon like Arcanine could be centerpieces of this metagame, and pokemon like Tangrowth could be viable physical walls, but sand renders them completely unviable. Again, I’m not arguing that these factors solely warrant a ban on sand, just that they contribute to the big picture.

    Alright, now for the big issue: Stoutland. Anybody who plays UU for a day can tell that Hippowdon + Stoutland is a broken combination. Stoutland has good natural bulk and spams a type with good neutral coverage, and can even switch in safely and pursuit the ghosts who would stop it. This makes a team of offensive pokemon unviable without using one of the precious few rocks / steels that actually check Stoutland. The top of the ladder reflects this, with every team either being a sand clone or carrying one of the precious few Stoutland checks. The silver lining is that for the most part, bulky rocks and steels stop Stoutland cold. This would make it risky to use a sand team in UU; much like rain dance teams, you would be removing skill from the match in order to play a match that was almost entirely decided by team matchup. This is why rain dance teams do not work well on the ladder, and it is the risk that balances out the power of Stoutland. However, with Hippowdon, this silver lining disappears. Every bulky rock / steel that makes a good check to Stoutland is dealt with quite easily by Hippowdon. Cobalion, Bisharp, most Rhyperior, Registeel, etc. are all hard countered by Hippowdon. This removes the inherient risk that should be associated with using a sandstorm team and is not a balanced strategy. By contrast, Hippopotas actually loses to pokemon like SD Cobalion and is easily exploited. Therefore, banning Hippowdon but allowing Hippopotas to stay would balance out sand.
  6. sax king

    sax king

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    wait i'm a little confused. Is hippowdon BL, or are people arguing that it should be?
  7. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    Another important thing about those calcs, Heysup, is that you decided to factor in a Pokemon that doesn't actually check Stoutland, like Heracross. Cobalion also can't 2HKO Hippowdon with Close Combat, as the defense drop ensures it will die to the first Earthquake. Two Swords Dances won't make up for that damage either, leaving Hippowdon to easily 2HKO with Earthquake.

    The reason I usually don't bring Spikes into arguments is because while it is a popular strategy in this metagame, every decent player will be carrying either a Xatu or Rapid Spinner to prevent it. There's no telling who will win out in the end. And assuming Sand teams can use Spikes as well makes it a lot more dangerous than a non-weather balanced offensive team could ever be. This only further reinforces the idea that Sand teams are just better than your average team and Hippowdon is mostly to blame for that. Nothing else gives us a stupidly fast effective sweeper and punishes its counters as hard as he does.
  8. kd24

    kd24 lemme just whip my dick out and slam it on the table
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    it is almost likely to be BL - this is looks likely with a majority of BL votes. what we are doing is posting our reasons why for the uu community (and we will be sure to try and work more in the megathread throughout the next one)
  9. DoABarrelRoll

    DoABarrelRoll

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    No, it should be BL, but it's not yet.

    Back to the topic... Weavile, azelf and dusclops should be BL.
    Weavile: unless you a priority move(especially Mach Punch), if he grabbed a Swords Dance, you're pretty much doomed. He's also extremely fast.
    Azelf: I hate azelf with a passion everytime I use uu teams. He's ridiculously powerful with nasty plot, and he has good defenses for a sweeper.
    Dusclops: With eviolite, dusclops becomes an evil annoying pokemon that can only be stopped by chansey and some fire-types(most dusclops carry will-o-wisp). also, due to Dusclops's low HP, Pain split screws you over.
  10. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    Yeah guys our next suspect discussion should be over Dusclops.

    Regarding big hippo v. baby hippo, I don't think calculations really convey the level of difference here - you could have said something similar for Abomasnow v. Snover in Gen IV, but hail was obviously much more manageable once we moved Abomasnow to BL. Yeah Evolite didn't exist back then, but it's still a very pertinent point.

    The simple fact is that, in standard battle conditions, big hippo does much, much more to help the team. It doesn't roll over and die to a special attack, it can handle physical threats who don't use boosting items much easier, it's actually a threatening offensive presence...cherry picking three or four calcs doesn't change all that.

    That said, I'm not convinced that a BL decision is as clear-cut as many people are making it. We know that big Hippo is a much better Pokemon than little hippo, but I'm still not convinced that this pushes sand over the edge into "overcentralizing" territory. Hell, I was really successful using a team that had no normal resists for a while (although that I retired that team for unrelated reasons).
  11. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    I decided to factor in a powerful common Choice Band user that jumped out at me because of its damage range. The other 2 are both very effective checks to Stoutland.

    As for your theory about Cobalion vs Hippowdon: it can just use Iron Head + Close Combat to beat Hippowdon. However, even if this Cobalion doesn't carry Iron Head, 2 Swords Dances make Close Combat deal 90.95% - 107.14%. With hazards on the field, I'd take that bet.

    I don't know why I'm wasting time on this, because Cobalion can just CC and switch out because of how non threatening Hippowdon is even with his improved attack from Hippopotas.

    I don't think Abomsnow and Snover are really analogous to Hippowdon and Hippopotas simply because of the nature of Eviolite and each of the Pokemon. I'm sure we can both agree that Abomasnow is significantly more offensive than Hippowdon. Eviolite makes the Defensiveness/Special Defensiveness gap a lot smaller than the offensive one.

    Abomasnow has absurdly powerful Blizzards and Wood Hammer, as well as powerful Ice Shard to cause shit for faster Pokemon. Snover can't do that. Hippowdon sets up Stealth Rock and switches into physical attackers that it can wall. Hippopotas can do a lot of that. Hippowdon's Attack is important, but the improvement to Abomsnow's Attack / Special Attack makes a significantly larger difference than Hippowdon's.
  12. TM13IceBeam

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    Weavile and Azelf should stay, they aren't even that broken.

    Dusclops on the other hand, idk. But still, I'd probably consider banning Porygon2 or Sableye first over Dusclops. Dusclops pretty much screams Taunt bait (hi sableye/whimsicott) and he's pretty much forced to use night shade for an offensive attack. Not only does he scream Taunt Bait, he screams toxic bait, etc. P2 has some actual offensive presence and Sableye should go on the chopping block in the very least before Dusclops, especially when it packs the 3rd fastest Taunt in the metagame (and Tornadus/Whimsicott don't always run Taunt).
  13. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    I think you are overexaggerating a lot in the bolded sentence.
    For some reason you assume that the only things that can wall Stoutland are Rocks and Steels which is just not true.
    From the top of my head i can think of Porygon2,Gligar and Sableye that wall Stoutland AND can also beat Hippo.Mind you 2 of those 3 can also beat Alakazam with the right set.
    And 2 of them are absolutely perfect pokemon on their own and not niche pokes(Gligar is a useful poke,but its biggest asset is dealing with sand teams in UU).

    I know that Hippo is a worthy suspect but the last thing i want to see is senate members misguiding the whole community and its opinion for Hippo via false and exaggerating claims.
    I know that this post may come as insulting to you but it is not.I don't imply you are misguiding anyone on purpose.You just wrote your personal opinion and in the meantime you exaggerated without noticing.Everyone does that.
    But you,of all people,should think very carefully of what you post about the suspects,because your opinions are going to heavily influence a lot of the UU community.
  14. truevillany

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    To further your point, Calm Tangela w/ Eviolite can eat stoutland's Fire fangs and stab moves, and put it to sleep, knock off its orb/set up leech seed, and giga drain it to death.

    It also completely counters Hippo (come to think if it that thing is kinda underrated).

    Neither of them need to be banned if u have a good team set up
  15. Amire

    Amire

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    The thing that makes sandstorm broken in UU is not necessarily Hippo + Stoutland + Alakazam, but Hippo + Stoutland + Alakazam + Roserade. Roserade is definately broken in the current metagame and it's what in my opinion breaks sand. Roserade is broken because it's so unpredictable and will next to always give you 2 or more hazards up. When you face Roserade, you have no idea if it's LO offensive, specially defensive, scarf or specs and with such a wide and usefull movepool you never know if it has sleep powder or if it's just the defensive set. The specially defensive set laughs at porygon and sets up a few hazards and leaves with nearly full HP (after a rest). Sableye would've destroyed sand if it wasn't for roserade. Roserade really needs to go, it's just too good for the current metagame and it's what makes sand broken.

    Hail + Snow cloak is broken, but not hail in itself. I do not see how Abomasnow alone breaks hail. He has below averedge stats and every other hail abuser is NU, so how does he break hail?
  16. DoABarrelRoll

    DoABarrelRoll

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    Hail + snow cloak broken? Are you crazy? why is glaceon NU?
  17. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    Amire is obviously referring to Froslass. Glaceon is NU for completely different reasons...
  18. Moo

    Moo Professor
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    Here's my hippo Paragraph:

    Show Hide

    Hippo makes Sandstorm a bit overwhelming in UU. The reason it does this is because it's miles better than Hippopotas, and usually means that a sandstorm user can keep its weather in play with ease. Hippowdon is much bulkier than Hippopotas, and can even take certain special attacks from the likes of Empoleon and Roserade (around 60% from Scald / Giga Drain) and do a considerable amount of damage back. Pair it with Roserade, which can switch into most things that give Hippowdon trouble, and you can take advantage of bulky waters by setting up on them. Hippowdon's ability to set up Stealth Rock with ease also puts a great hindrance on Hail teams.

    Also, it pretty much dominates most things that give Stoutland (best sand sweeper) trouble, which also increases sandstorms effectiveness. Things like Aggron, Rhyperior and Registeel are good examples of these. Hippowdon can easily switch in to these, and attack them or set up Stealth Rock. That's a bit of a strange point, but when you compare sand usage to pre-Hippowdon times, you will see that it's true. The reason for this is because its Attack stat is considerably higher, and it is bulkier too, and has Leftovers. So basically, Hippowdon makes Sandstorm a bit too good, and I think it needs to go.


    Basically I just feel that it's too easy to keep Sandstorm up with Hippo because it's so bulky. It also makes it very easy to sweep with Stoutland. It wasn't this easy when sand had to use Hippopotas, which means that Hippo is the problem, not Stoutland
  19. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    I respect the opinion of the senate but i think most of you are exaggerating.
    Moo wrote in his paragraph that Aggron and Rhyperior,2 pokes that wall Stoutland,cannot get past Hippo while they both 2hko with SR and 1 layer of Spikes.

    kd24 said that the only things that can wall Stoutland are rocks and steels.

    Everyone keeps saying that the things that beat Stoutland cannot beat Hippo.

    Everyone keeps saying that ghosts are not checks to Stoutland.

    And i ask why??
    Why all this hyperbole?
    Here are some pokes that wall Stoutland AND are not rock or steel types AND can beat Hippo:

    -Tangrowth/Tangela
    -Porygon2
    -Sableye
    -Dusclops
    -Gligar
    -Hippowdon(with Toxic to deal with Stoutland and other Hippos)
    -Slowbro

    And this is the list of non rock/steel type counters.
    So if we include rock/steel type counters(that can also beat Hippo) the list grows bigger:

    -Rhyperior
    -Aggron

    There are also checks that can beat Stootland AND Hippo:

    -Froslass
    -Chandelure
    -Mismagius
    -Cobalion
    -Empoleon
    -Omastar
    -Escavalier

    Finally if we include the checks/counters to Stoutland that cannot beat Hippo the list grows even bigger:

    -Aerodactyl
    -Registeel
    -Golurk
    -Bisharp

    I don't think that the tier doesn't have enough options to deal with Hippo and Stoutland.
    I just thing that everyone needs a little time to get used to the way the things are and find the apropriate solutions.
  20. JabbaTheGriffin

    JabbaTheGriffin Stormblessed
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    A few of the senate members already posted their paragraphs but here's the full set anyway. Final vote was 6-1 for BL, so I'll post a new stage topic for the new metagame.


    Moo/BL (open)



    SJCrew/BL (open)


    Heysup/UU (open)


    kinglerdude24/BL (open)


    Twist of Fate/BL (open)


    Snunch/BL (open)


    DetroitLaughoutloudCat/BL (open)


    I'll post the next np thread once I talk to someone to get the tier on the server updated.
  21. Kaos

    Kaos

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    Hippowdon banned? Here comes the Hail hate again...

    I don't agree with this ban at all. In order for Sand teams to provide the support Stoutland needed to thrive, they had to expose themselves to a ton of very exploitable weaknesses. Porygon2, Mamoswine, CB Rhyperior, and Torterra are just a few of the pokemon that you could plop on to beat Sand outright.
  22. CrazyBacon

    CrazyBacon

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    after hippos gone the next order of banning will most likely be snow warning + Snow cloak. It only stopped because hippo got brought down.
  23. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Maize And Blue Badge Set :)
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    Porygon2 does welll against Sand, I'll give you that.
    Mamoswine cannot break any main bulky Waters like Slowbro or Milotic, which are around on Sand teams.
    CB Rhyperior needs 2 hazards just to have a chance at beating Hippowdon.
    Torterra? Do people use that? Well it can't set up on any Sand Pokemon, and is revenged by Stoutland.
  24. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Rhyperior needs SR and spikes, which are common battle conditions,to 2hko Hippo after lefties 98.62% of the time not ''just to have a chance at beating Hippowdon''.

    EDIT:I meant 2hko fixed!
  25. Kaos

    Kaos

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    Hell yeah he does. He's none too shabby against non-Sand either.

    Mamoswine rapes Milotic. Suicune has no good recovery and is easily worn down after a few switch-ins. Resting makes him deadweight. Blastoise was becoming an increasingly common bulky water choice due to Spikes dominance, and he didn't take an EQ well either. Only Slowbro really gets him, but recently I haven't seen much of him because everyone wants their bulky water to be able to check Chandelure.

    2 hazards? Just use Roserade; she has no problem getting them up against basically any special attacker or bulky water. So fucking broken...

    Torterra is uncommon, but very effective as not only a Rock Polisher, but also an all-out attacker or Leech Seeding tank. With Wood Hammer he smashes through Hippowdon and the likely bulky water, and with EQ he rapes just about everything else Sand has. Stoutland doesn't even come close to OHKOing even with no defensive investment, and can be OHKOed in return.

    The point is, there were a lot of options available that could, if not single-handedly beat, at least cause serious problems for the standard sand team build that was all over the ladder. Even the best sand teams were often very weak to all of these threats. I could go on to name more if it suits you...

    2HKO, but other than that: yes, exactly. Plus Hippowdon doesn't OHKO with his own EQ iirc, meaning that even without hazards, Hippowdon has to pray for no crithax as he continually Slacks Off to get back to the full health he needs to beat Rhyperior...
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