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np: UU Stage 5 - Every Rose Has Its Thorns

Discussion in 'BW UU' started by JabbaTheGriffin, Jan 10, 2012.

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  1. JabbaTheGriffin

    JabbaTheGriffin Stormblessed
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    To start off, here are the paragraphs on hail. I only have 5/7 of these, but oh well.

    SJCrew - BL (open)


    Moo - BL (open)


    Heysup - BL (open)


    DetroitLolcat - BL (open)


    ToF - BL (open)


    Snunch still hasn't gotten me his paragraphs, so if he'd like to post those ASAP, that'd be nice. kd24 "quit" smogon and therefore will no longer take part in the UU Senate. He will be replaced by reachzero. So join me in welcoming him aboard. His experience and insight into the tiering process is much welcome.

    The big hot button issue right now is obviously Spikes. So continue that discussion from the other thread. The questions to go to the Senate at this point in time is which of the big three spikers is worthy of being voted on: one or two of Froslass, Roserade, Deoxys-D or all three of them?
  2. Ace Emerald

    Ace Emerald Horsing around
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    Congratz on the Senate seat Reach!
    To celebrate this brand new megathread, I'd like to start discussion about something thats been bugging me for a while. I've seen many people discussing spinning and spinners, and almost always Kabutops is left of the list. The thing about support Kabutops is that even with little attack investment, its attack still hits 284, which isn't that far away from a fully invested base 100 or 90 attack. So it has the marvelous ability to inflict serious damage upon many enemy spin blockers. Mismagius without heavy defense investment is KO'd by Stone Edge, then Aqua Jet. Even with investment, Stealth Rocks (another great support option Kabutops has) allows Kabutops to still make the 2HKO. Chandlelure can't switch in at all, due to being both Water and Rock weak, and Kabutops can actually switch into a Scarf Chandy locked into Fire Blast. Golurk is a bit of a problem if you don't run Waterfall, though I haven't seen as many this round. Sableye is a little painful to deal with, but Stone Edge 2HKOs standard most of the time without hazards, and with some smart switching during turns with predictable W-O-Ws and Recovers, it can be managed. Unfortunately though, Dusclops is a full stop to Kabutops.

    Outside of Rapid Spin, support Kabutops still has many uses, which has been one of the traits most desired after Donphans promotion. No one wants to start a match 5-6. As I've already stated, its no pushover in attack. It can set up Stealth Rocks as mentioned before, and it is a pretty solid physical wall. It can switch into Darm pretty easily, though a Superpower or EQ will cripple him. It also has amazing basic synergy with Roserade; they resist very many of each others weaknesses, Kabutops is physical while Roserade is special, Roserade can set up Spikes to go with Stealth Rocks, and Roserade can support Kabutops with Leech Seed, or Aromatherapy. Of course, in actual battles the opponent can switch moves or predict, but they can still come in on some of each others counters (Kabutops in on Snorelax, Roserade on bulky waters).
  3. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Maize And Blue Badge Set :)
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    Yay 4 reach!

    Spikes don't seem broken atm!

    This metagame is pretty cool right now!

    Let's post opinions :D:D:D
  4. GTS

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    Congrats to reachzero on making the senate!
    I def agree with the Snow Warning ban, as well, if only for Froslass.
    However, it seems perhaps Hail was not the only benefactor in Lass' success.

    Her great typing, ice for offense, and ghost for both offense and being immune to fighting/normal and spinning, as well as her wide array of support moves such as Taunt, TWave, and Destiny Bond make her a true menace, as well as Spikes, naturally allowing her to support the entire team while preventing spins or even destiny bonding their Blastoise etc.

    I can't say as to whether any of the big 3 are broken, but I am interested in hearing how the rest of you weigh in, and continue from the previous discussions.
  5. Mishra

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    And how do you figure that exactly?

    I don't disagree that spikes is not the problem, but there is a clear overbearing advantage to getting hazards up vs spinning them away. My team currently is dealing with spikes decently, but then, I have a rapid spinner and 3 levitators...=/
  6. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Maize And Blue Badge Set :)
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    Of course there's an advantage to getting Spikes up versus Spinning them away. In one situation you're acting and in the other you're reacting to the opponent. However, I don't think this advantage is great enough to warrant a ban. When I decide if something is broken I consider two things:
    1. This Suspect unbalances the metagame (Y/N)
    2. This Suspect is far too powerful to exist in the metagame (Y/N)

    I don't think Spikes unbalance the metagame; plenty of offensive and defensive teams do well in UU. I've seen plenty of offense, Sand offense, Sand balance, stall (but not full stall), Baton Pass, and many other playstyles. I believe that bulky offense is probably the best strategy right now, but I don't think that the existence of Spikes makes Offense far too powerful at the moment. They're obviously good, but the abundance of Levitators, Flying-types, and Spinners in UU plus the amount of Pokemon with access to recovery make Spikes fall short of brokenness.

    Of course, that doesn't mean I'm sold to a No Ban vote for anything permanently, I'm just saying that from my experience in the current metagame Spikes are not too powerful to exist in UU.

    "The Big Three" are feared for their ability to Spike, and I think all three of them have their weaknesses that prevent them from becoming broken in UU. Deoxys-D is weak to Toxic, Toxic Spikes, cannot be both fast and really bulky, and can be set up on. Froslass is frail, has poor attacking prowess, and has trouble blocking Rapid Spin. Roserade, arguably the best of the Spikers, cannot run both Sleep Powder and Spikes, is usually better off running an offensive set, and is still pretty frail.

    I think the big 3 are nothing more than really good Pokemon that happen to have access to a nice supporting option. That makes them generally useful Pokemon, but they don't need a ban to BL.
  7. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    Congrats, reach!

    Anyway, does anyone feel Rain Dance is way too easy to play these days? With Hail gone and Sandstorm not really being worth it, Rain Dance is so easy to set up and abuse these days, especially with bullshit like Prankster Sableye virtually guaranteeing it.
  8. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark formerly LucaroarkZ

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    I don't think it's spikes that's the problem; rather, I think the problem is Dusclops.

    I'm not kidding. The only UU spinners thanks to Donphan moving up to OU are Blastoise and Hitmontop. Out of the two, neither one can beat it and only Hitmontop can spin past it. None of the RU spinners can beat it either, and don't bring up NU spinners because they're all NU because they're all SR weak.

    Basically, Dusclops, combined with the presence of the Spikers in Froslass, Roserade, and Deoxys-D, forces you to run a spinner and potentially some way of beating Dusclops in some form of special attacker that can hit it super effectively with its STAB, such as Mismagius, Zoroark, and..... That's pretty much it.

    Now, let's compare to OU. Spikes are nowhere near as dominating there because the top Rapid Spinner in OU, Starmie, doesn't get completely cockblocked by Jellicent, the #1 spinblocker in OU. Unfortunately, here, our best spinner is Hitmontop, who cannot outright kill Dusclops, so the opponent only has to wait for the opponent's Hitmontop to go down, and with Hitmontop having no reliable recovery and getting worn down by Toxic.... Good luck keeping it alive.
  9. Mishra

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    The problem I have with spikes of the moment is basically the fundamental of how easy it is to set-up.

    Essentially, the matches I have been winning (and losing) have been nothing more than a giant masturbating contest to see who can get off first. Especially since stall really can't hold its ground, the offensive game is simply a race to see who can get spikes off. If you want to do well in this meta, your team has to be:

    Roserade/Froslass/Deo-D l Rapid Spinner l Ghost type l Offensive scarf user l 2x Filler.

    The two most common I've seen for Offensive scarf users are Krockodile and Heracross, but there are several teams that run a couple. Hell, I even saw a scarfed Zapdos that tagged Krockodile and rotom for more tricks. Who cares if you are locked into a resisted move when yourt opponent takes ~25% just to take said resisted move. Even my own team, I can just spam megahorn and watch as spikes/SR just wreck those supposed checks to my counters. I am trying to adapt by using more levitators, but frankly, its not enough.

    If this is the kind of metagame you enjoy, more power to you. I don't play enough to really fight to the death for it, but I find it incredibly unfun. This is the type of singularity in battles that made me sick of chess.
  10. WinstonShnozwick

    WinstonShnozwick

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    I think that the mindset of setting entry hazards in UU (spikes most) has become quite disgusting to be honest. I have played battles now where I will have my attacking pokemon hammering at my opponent, and he will ignore me for 3-6 turns and lay down every goddamn hazard before actually battling me. Then the game really starts at 6-4 maybe, with full hazards on my field. The mindset here is way too centralized on hazards. I blame it on the fact that weather is scarce here, so people are looking for something else to copypaste because they have no originality or just don't want to try making their own teams. This is before I even start to realize how very annoying the hazard layers are. Froslass is now nerfed with snow warning ban, and her past counters are now much more solid without miss hax. Froslass is frail, and she frankly doesnt hit very hard. I believe that she has been balanced (for the forseeable now). Roserade however, is a menace. Before I even think about stopping her, I have to identify her set. The spike laying roserade is annoying as hell, and very hard to stop without something like chandelure or sceptile (acro). The offensive set is the reason why I can't safely use my milotic anymore, and I rarely switch her in now when I see a roserade on the enemy team. I can't guess the set, because if I'm wrong, I have hazards on my field or one of my pokemon is asleep and useless. Deoxys D on the other hand, is less annoying. There are ample steels in UU and some odd others that care nothing for status, besides that, toxic is annoying. Deoxys D has little other offensive prescense. Hard hitters like Weavile, Sceptile and Escavalier can all 2HKO Deoxys D.

    I think that of the "big 3", Froslass is easily the least worrying now. Yes, she has dat movepool, but if you think being destiny bonded is unfair, you really need to be better at battling and know what moves some pokemon have access to. Froslass is very weak now with hail gone. Roserade is the closest to a warning sign I can think of, and DeoD is only moderately worse than froslass.
  11. TheBaron

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    I think we need to give Wobbuffet and Hippowdon another look. I didn't play UU when Wobbuffet was in it, but I don't think it would be that hard to kill. And no, Rain Dance still takes skill.
  12. CrazyBacon

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    Lmao wobbuffet.

    It's pretty hard to kill yes, because you have no control over what it comes in on and its entirely your opponents choice, but thats not the point of wobbuffet, the point of wobbuffet is to a) eliminate choice users/walls for other pokemon too sweep and b) too provide 1 turn of garunteed setup for 1 pokemon, which aides them to sweep. Amswer me this, do you want pokemon like sub calm mind raikou, nasty plot azelf etc running around with a free turn of set up, especially with the prevalance of spikes which already makes it easier for them to sweep? In my opinion, wobbuffet is the best support pokemon. And it is to good for UU, getting a 92?% ban when it was voted on.
  13. DetroitLolcat

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    To be fair, Brightpowder got an 87% vote and it wasn't even close to being almost qualified to be possibly up for debate, never mind actually broken.

    I'm not sure if the old Suspect system can even be used as legitimate data, since most of it entailed playing for a few days and then parking at (insert rating here) and then bandwagoning on the path of least resistance.
  14. SJCrew

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    Dusclops is a joke. Complete setup fodder for all three Spikes users, a lot of setup sweepers (Kingdra, anything with Nasty Plot, Quiver Dance, or Calm Mind), and no instant recovery to keep up with passive damage from hazards and status. Dusclops is not only not over powered, but he's straight up bad in this metagame. If you want a spinblocker, use Sableye, Mismagius, or Froslass. All three of these Pokemon can not only Taunt a spinner's attempts to Foresight, but have way more utility overall.
  15. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark formerly LucaroarkZ

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    Experience shows that Hitmontop will attempt to use Foresight as the opponent's Ghost-type comes in (team preview makes this easier), so it's not like Taunt on any of those Pokemon really matters if it's intended to prevent Hitmontop from using Foresight. Sableye and Froslass will also be hit for super effective damage by Close Combat, should they switch in on a Foresight.

    Dusclops is not complete set-up bait for DD Kingdra, I must say. It can burn it with Will-O-Wisp, should it attempt to set up on Dusclops. Setting up with a physical attacker on Dusclops in general is a pretty terrible idea, unless your name is Heracross and SD Heracross is very rare.

    Sableye isn't bulky, and while it is more useful for spreading burn thanks to Prankster, it will get hit very hard by Special hits that won't even 2HKO Dusclops.

    I've actually been toying around with Dusclops on a team I'm working on, and it's actually not bad in this metagame. Unlike Sableye's lol typing, which makes it only resist Poison, not counting its immunities to Normal, Fighting, and Psychic, Dusclops gets an actually useful resistance to Bug. Sableye also has loads more trouble with Heracross than Dusclops; Choice Scarf Jolly Heracross will always OHKO 252/120 Careful Sableye with Megahorn when burned (assuming Guts ability) while that same burned Heracross will only manage 33.1% - 39.44% against 252/180 Bold Dusclops with Night Slash and only doing 38.03% - 45.07% with Pursuit, assuming Dusclops actually attempts to switch. Can also switch in on Megahorn, taking 25% (literally 25%) maximum from that same burned Choice Scarf Heracross. I don't know what everyone else is using Dusclops for, but attempting to use it to wall Special powerhouses like Mismagius is a pretty bad idea. If you really need to take on special attackers, use Registeel or something.

    Anyway, it seems that we both have completely different ideas on the matter so I just won't bother arguing anymore. Have a nice day.
  16. jamashawalker

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    THIS!!!
    It has become so farfetchd that ppl make dumb decision by setting up spikes. Ive seen so many stupid battles where ppl are setting up spikes on a team full of flyers and levitators with only 2 grounded pokes. I wish I could say that was one battle where the person was just being idiotic or not paying attention, but ive seen it happen multiple times. This metagame has been so focused on spiking that they forgot about just winning and taking pokes out


    EDIT: To the post above you also forgot to mention that dusclops has NO form of recovery outside pain split or rest, no leftovers and it is complete set up bait to many of those pokes listed. And plus how do you know hitmontop or blastoise would have foresight? sometimes they might just carry toxic and now your dusclops is ruined. and if its the rest talk set you are asking for complete set up bait from nearly ANY poke lol
    The only poke you listed that dusclops walls better than sabeleye is heracross..And while heracross is a big deal since it is high in usage it doesnt merit the fact that dusclops is better than sabeleye

    To say dusclops is the problem is a big LOL because if you wanna call something a "problem" that means the metagame will completely change or undergo some sort of change, but if dusclops was even gone not a single thing would change in this game. Teams would still be the same and the spikestacking would still continue aka Dusclops wont be missed
  17. bygbyrd

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    If people are so worried about spikes that they aren't playing the game right then simply take advantage of it. People becoming so concerned with setting up spikes that they play stupidly doesn't warrant a spikes/spiker(s) ban, it warrants battlers using their brain. Besides, any team can take advantage of the free turns you get while the opponent racks up their hazards (I know this has been brought up, but its a valid point).
  18. SJCrew

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    Where do you get this impression that turns spent setting up Spikes are free and give you an opening to win the game? To begin with, none of the Spikers are really setup bait. Froslass is too fast to Taunt, Roserade abuses Water-tyes, and Deoxys-D can wall/Taunt the setup sweepers who fail to kill him. There's nothing dangerous enough in the UU metagame that can destroy an entire team with just one turn of setup and without having worn down the opposing team severely beforehand. Chances are, no matter what you bring in, I'm packing a check to it, and you can't snag much initiative from a free turn unless your hazards are up.

    What the game really comes down to in a Spikes match is whose offense can overrun the other's. Needless to say, it's going to be much, much easier for the guy who actually has his hazards. People do this not because they're silly, but because it wins games.
  19. Banedon

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    Congratulations reachzero.

    The paragraphs were disappointing. Lolcat was the only person to mention Snover, and even he did not discuss it. I would've expected lines saying Snover forces out bulky waters the same way Abomasnow does, and calculations to prove it, therefore Snover too deserves to be banned, but whatever.
  20. casey90

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    so I've just been doing calcs for timid offensive roserade against the entire UU tier, I am BAFFLED by how ridiculous it is, I'll be posting here in the thread my findings as well as my now BL opinion of it, but it's like 2am here so I'll post it later.
  21. Heysup

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    How did you so quickly forget the discussion we had about this last time you complained. You were refuted then as you will be now via the same reasoning.

    We as senate members are supposed to discuss the suspect not "other ways of banning the suspect". We openly discussed that for pages before, if you forgot (which I doubt).

    If you want to be continually disappointed for something that you have utterly no reason to expect, then that's your call. But please stop being ignorant for your sake and that of the senates.
  22. Banedon

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    You doubt wrong. I didn't read it. You also accuse wrong. I did not press an argument that Snover isn't BL. I expected to see an argument in those paragraphs for why Snover is BL, or why Snow Warning is the suspect not Snow Cloak / Abomasnow. I can see no reason not to expect such arguments. Since I don't see the arguments, I am disappointed.
  23. alexwolf

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    Yeah i agree with Banedon. All these paragraphs have one things in common: they all agree about how annoying and broken Snow Cloak was in Hail teams. Almost in every single of these paragraphs, the fact that Snow Cloak is easily the most problematic factor about Hail teams is mentioned.
    But i don't care anymore. Even if i cannot understand why weren't Snow Cloak or Snow Cloak + Snow Warning banned but the whole Hail playstyles were banned i guess i cannot do something about it, but at least now anyone know that the most broken aspect of Hail was Snow Cloak and not Blizz(lol)spam...
  24. DetroitLolcat

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    I felt a specific insight into Snover wasn't important in the paragraphs because Snover and Abomasnow have very little utility on a Hail team outside of summoning Hail. Calculations for Snover are pretty unnecessary as it's generally used for 1. Snow Warning and 2. SubSeeding. Snover can't hit very hard even with neutral Blizzards or Wood Hammers, and it can achieve so much more in a match with SubProtect+Leech Seed+ Blizzard. Blizzard grasses and SubSeed the rest.

    Snow Cloak wasn't the Suspect because it wasn't broken and "uncompetitiveness=ban" is a lol argument, and Abomasnow wasn't the Suspect because the Senate decided that it was the mere presence of Hail that broke UU, not the combination of the Hail abusers and Abomasnow. Personally, I thought a ban on Abomasnow and an immediate test of Snover afterward would have been a better solution (just to be sure), but I definitely think a Snow Warning ban was a good solution.

    I mean, what's the difference between Abomasnow and Snover? Abomasnow has better attacking stats. Big whoop. Both have adequate but not good bulk, both have pretty much an identical movepool with the exception of Hidden Power and Focus Punch (no big difference), and, most importantly, neither would have much usage in UU without Snow Warning.

    Both Abomasnow and Snover bring unlimited hail. This means both Abomasnow and Snover give all of the Hail abusers 100% accurate Blizzards, Snow Cloak boosts (if applicable), and passive damage to non-Ice types.

    Really, that means the only difference between an Abomasnow hail team and a Snover hail team is one Pokemon becoming a little weaker. As far as I'm concerned, the fact that Snover does about 95% of what Abomasnow does was reason enough to group the two together.

    If you have reasoning as to why Snover should not have been banned, they please post it in the megathread and especially in IRC. If you convince enough people that Snover can fit in UU, it will most likely get a re-test. The Senate does not operate on a set timetable nor is there a current Suspect, so if it becomes apparent in the megathread/IRC discussions that Snover should be the next Suspect, actions will be taken.

    That's not at all true. There is not a current Suspect to be voted on at the moment, so there is no reason for Snover not being the next Suspect. I would disagree with you about Snow Cloak being the broken aspect of Hail (Personally I think it was Blizzard spamming combined with passive damage), but that's debatable. I guarantee you I did not think that Snow Cloak is the most problematic factor in UU Round 4. If enough people want a Snover re-test, then it will probably happen. I believe the rule with the UU Suspect system is that the community discusses the Suspects through the megathread and IRC, Jabba picks the Suspect based on community opinion, and the Senate votes on the Suspect after an open discussion on IRC.

    I cannot stress enough that the community is, as far as I know, the most important part of the UU Suspect process. The past three Suspects (Alakazam, Hippowdon, and Snow Warning) were pretty unanimous in that most people thought those three things needed to be voted on, but if enough people want to revisit the Hail issue there's no reason not to give it another look. We might even discover that Snover could fit in UU!


    Note: I don't think Snover will be voted UU, but if people want a retest then I will argue for a retest on IRC and in the megathread. That does not mean I will vote it UU; that remains to be seen.



    ------------------------

    Oh, I think I misinterpreted Banedon's point about the paragraphs. The paragraphs aren't meant to decide what the suspect is, but whether or not it needs to be banned. There is a lot of discussion in Megathread 4 about what should have been nominated, and originally it was Abomasnow. It was later decided after further discussion that Snow Warning should be the Suspect instead. Therefore, there is no reason to mention Snover in the posts except as an aside. The Suspect was Snow Warning; the paragraphs should be Snow Warning.
  25. TheBaron

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    OK, people. I think we all agree that Spikes are pretty annoying. So what exactly do you think we should do about it? Run Whimsicott? Use lots of Flying types, Levitators, and Clefable? Ban Roserade? Azelf would be a good choice to kill Spikes. He is very fast with offensive prowess, has Taunt and Levitate, and has Psyshock and Shadow Ball to hit all of the "Big 3" spikers Super-Effectively.
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