This has turned from Spikes to a discussion about Roserade, which is fine, but nobody is mentioning the fact that if you want Rose to be your spiker (some of you say her spiking abilitys are broken) then she cant carry the dreaded Sleep Powerder that makes her so hard to counter. If Rose is in the "big three" of spikers, then why are you trying to ban her for her non - spiking set ?
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np: UU Stage 5 - Every Rose Has Its Thorns
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Because until she uses Spikes / Sleep Powder / Leaf Storm we don't really know which set is which?
Xatu is the only thing that really stops her from spiking/sleeping, but he's not going to like STAB Sludge Bomb.
Xatu is the only thing that really stops her from spiking/sleeping, but he's not going to like STAB Sludge Bomb.
Zapdos
move 1: Thunderbolt
move 2: Heat Wave
move 3: Hidden Power Grass
move 4: Roost
item: Life Orb
ability: Pressure
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
That, (in my humble opinion) is the strongest single Pokemon in all of UU. It has very few counters (almost none when Spikes are on the field) and outside of putting Snorlax on your teams, you'll have a ton of trouble trying to handle this monster. Almost everyone relies on ground types like Rhyperior / Krookodile / Swampert to check this thing, and they all go down. Krookodile can't even OHKO Zapdos with Stone Edge (made irrelevant when paired with something that resists ground too) and Snorlax is literally the only reliable counter to this thing now that Chansey's gone. Grass types? They go down, in fact Roserade is flat out OHKOed by Heat Wave (something I find astonishing given its high SpD) Don't get me wrong, I don't think its banworthy, but if you want the single best Pokemon in all of UU you're looking at him.
#1, numero Uno, the big kahuna, the one without equal. I'm hoping to see him claim his rightful throne as King of UU before (if ever) it rises to OU.
move 1: Thunderbolt
move 2: Heat Wave
move 3: Hidden Power Grass
move 4: Roost
item: Life Orb
ability: Pressure
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
That, (in my humble opinion) is the strongest single Pokemon in all of UU. It has very few counters (almost none when Spikes are on the field) and outside of putting Snorlax on your teams, you'll have a ton of trouble trying to handle this monster. Almost everyone relies on ground types like Rhyperior / Krookodile / Swampert to check this thing, and they all go down. Krookodile can't even OHKO Zapdos with Stone Edge (made irrelevant when paired with something that resists ground too) and Snorlax is literally the only reliable counter to this thing now that Chansey's gone. Grass types? They go down, in fact Roserade is flat out OHKOed by Heat Wave (something I find astonishing given its high SpD) Don't get me wrong, I don't think its banworthy, but if you want the single best Pokemon in all of UU you're looking at him.
#1, numero Uno, the big kahuna, the one without equal. I'm hoping to see him claim his rightful throne as King of UU before (if ever) it rises to OU.
I'm sorry, this has probably been discussed before in this thread, and I apologize if for some reason this is irrelevant. But last generation Roserade was banned from the UU tier, I believe due to the sheer amount of support it offers a team. What has changed for it in this generation that would allow it to stay?
This hasn't been discussed because it's not true. Roserade was banned from UU last generation because it was used in OU enough to be bumped up to OU accordingly.
Sorry my bad, I thought that it had been banned to BL and then used in OU enough
I have to agree with PK gaming here, Zapdos is a freak to switch into, what's worse is the fact that it can just as easily run defensive, or that infuriating sub-roost set. I love Zapdos, and I've found Swampert to be a great partner, because Dangerous pokes like SubCM Raikou set up all over offensive Zappy.
@ PK: I think Raikou is better. He sets up on Zapdos, Roserade, and a vast majority of the tiers special attackers pretty hard. Only thing he doesn't have is that handy Ground immune that helps Zapdos escape the clutches of Krook and Flygon, but he pays for that with a Stealth Rock weakness.
Top-tier special attacker for sure, tough to switch into as well with Chansey gone, but it's not fast enough to really sweep nor strong enough to break walls. Its defensive sets aren't really good either. On top of that, it still has a healthier list of checks than something like, say, Kingdra.
We have quite a few contenders for 'best UU Pokemon' actually. I'm surprised you chose Zapdos of all things. Then again, I've heard such claims even at the start of UU, so I've always felt its praise was a bit overblown.
Top-tier special attacker for sure, tough to switch into as well with Chansey gone, but it's not fast enough to really sweep nor strong enough to break walls. Its defensive sets aren't really good either. On top of that, it still has a healthier list of checks than something like, say, Kingdra.
We have quite a few contenders for 'best UU Pokemon' actually. I'm surprised you chose Zapdos of all things. Then again, I've heard such claims even at the start of UU, so I've always felt its praise was a bit overblown.
even then roserade was going to be suspected anyway last gen iirc
what made it different last gen to now? team preview? xatu?
what made it different last gen to now? team preview? xatu?
Xatu is definitely a thorn on Roserade's side. Specially defensive Xatu only fears Sludge Bomb out of everything that Roserade can do be it offensive or defensive, assuming Xatu also managed to keep SR off the field (which is not so easy to do when monsters like Rhyperior set it up but whatever).
So anyone that has problems with Spikes should definitely try S.Defensive Xatu. It is a 100% counter to the Spiking Roserade, and can even take on the offensive one if you avoid Sludge Bomb, which means that no Roserade is going to setup Spikes against you. If you manage to keep it alive from the oppsoing Pursuiters, of 'course, that is.
It also gives to Deoxys-D a run for its money so. And to Qwilfish too... So the only Spikes user that you will have to worry about is Froslass. I am only talking about Spikes of 'course since Xatu has troubles keeping SR off the field in UU. I am surprised about how low it is in usage especially in the 1337 stats...
So anyone that has problems with Spikes should definitely try S.Defensive Xatu. It is a 100% counter to the Spiking Roserade, and can even take on the offensive one if you avoid Sludge Bomb, which means that no Roserade is going to setup Spikes against you. If you manage to keep it alive from the oppsoing Pursuiters, of 'course, that is.
It also gives to Deoxys-D a run for its money so. And to Qwilfish too... So the only Spikes user that you will have to worry about is Froslass. I am only talking about Spikes of 'course since Xatu has troubles keeping SR off the field in UU. I am surprised about how low it is in usage especially in the 1337 stats...
It might just be the fact that UU is completely different this gen than it was last gen. Snorlax, Zapdos, Suicune, Mew, D-D, Kingdra, and Flygon are several good mons that were OU or Uber last gen that are UU this gen. The two metagames aren't comparable at all really (except for their insane lack of viable steels and rapid spinners)
I'd take zapdos over raikou just for that intitial power. Raikou is more conserved as in you have to wait for the right moment to strike, but zapdos can just switch in and just start screwing stuff up(fucking shit up) Right now electric types are the dominant offensive type in the metagame right now, with snorlax being the only safe stop to some of them. Even the rotom formes are scary switch ins. Is there even a downside to using a full on triple electric team? ground types dont ever want to switch in, and we only have 4 grass types that are commonly seen in UU(roserade,shaymin, Rotom-C,ferroseed) Thanks to dugtrio, mamoswine, and chansey being gone electric types are looking so good and sexy to me right now.
Their usable offensive movepool is virtually identical save for Heat Wave, which isn't big enough to say it's better than Raikou. It does have some neat resistances and reliable recovery, which is cool, but being a better sweeper than a Pokemon whose trademark sets are offensive is a pretty big tip off that he's probably the better choice most of the time.
Coincidentally, all three of those Pokemon are Zapdos checks. When you really think about it, the number of safe switch-ins for Kingdra is pretty close to zero. His STABs alone can 2HKO the entire tier, and countering his Dragon Dance set is virtually impossible. Almost all of his checks are circumstantial (Cobalion/Escavalier when locked into Outrage, bulky Water-types when switching into Specs Surf, Empoleon when it's not DD, etc.) You either have to play really smart or just get lucky.
Zapdos checks are pretty much guaranteed to beat him without supreme hax. Clefable, Deoxys-D, Snorlax, Umbreon, and Porygon-2 all own him for free, and of those three, only Snorlax can reliably beat Raikou as well.
My picks for top UU Pokemon are Heracross, Deoxys-D, Kingdra, Raikou, and Roserade. Zapdos is somewhere up there too, but I wouldn't argue for #1. It's actually pretty telling that you can make a team of this bullshit and win.
For most of those bar snorlax, they have to be in healthy condition and without hazards on the field to be reliable against zapdos. Clefable of course being exempt from the hazard rule.
lol maybe its just me but I have never had a problem with Deoxys. Maybe I always accidently build teams that make the opponents DeoxysD a liability. and even watching battles I have never seen a deoxysD be that significant, heh but again maybe its just my luck.
I'd like to consider the top pokemon of UU influence the metagame in terms of team building, making certain sets of pokemon the more viable, or change the entire playstyle of a metagame.
If i were to say what the top 5 UU pokes would be it would mirror yours but probably krookodile over Deoxys-D lol couldnt agree more that making a team like that would= win.
lol SJ because you're top picks look like a lot of teams I saw in the last week with either Rhyperior or Chandy for the last slot. I would also say Flygon is worthy of top ten at least, I've used it as a late game cleaner on spikes teams with Sub-Magnet Rise Magneton to rid myself of Zong.
Heat Wave is actually a big deal. It lets you get by Roserade and Shaymin, pokemon who check Raikou that lack HP ice. I've already acknowledge that Raikou is a better sweeper, but as an attacker (and a pokemon in general) Zapdos is better. On top of obliterating everything, it can actually switch into the most potent physical attacker in the tier (Heracross) and it has recovery.
Aside from Raikou, (who doesn't like taking stray Tbolts / Heatwaves before its boosts) they're pretty weak checks :/ Yes Kingdra can 2HKO the entire tier, while that may be impressive to some its been done before. Zapdos can 2HKO just about the entire AND its fast. Though I will admit that trying to counter a Kingdra who hasn't revealed its set are mad bullshit.
Nobody uses Clefable (and for good reason, its not that good) and its taken any prior attacks, it will be 2HKOed. Deoxys-D isn't beating Zapdos without special defense and toxic... but why would you want to do that? Umbreon is not impressive in the slightest. though i'll admit Porygon-2 and Snorlax are fine checks. So really, Zapdos has 2 relevant checks, 1 of which can easily be worn down by Spikes. Nevermind the fact that Raikou is checked by Scarf Krookodile and Flygon. Neither of those Pokemon can OHKO Zapdos, so Zapdos has no problem roost spamming (though you risk getting crit) and Stone Edge is a shitty move to lock yourself into. Even Rhyperior can check Raikou since its less likely to run HP grass.
No you misunderstand, I wanted you to tell your choice for #1. (my fault for shitty wording!!!) I disagree with your opinion btw, I think Zapdos is far ahead of those threats (Raikou and Roserade are at least) debatable.
Let's assume the Gen 4 OU Sub CM set for a moment. Using that, Raikou can set up at least two Calm Minds on LO Shaymin, as Earth Power deals less than half on the first CM. Roserade switching in on Raikou just allows it to boost more. At +3, LO Sludge Bomb stops breaking its subs and Tbolt gets an easy 2HKO. Leftovers variants of these Pokemon are complete setup fodder and Raikou can actually CM right in front of them on the revenge.
For exaggeration's sake, Raikou can 'obliterate everything' too with a simple CM Life Orb set, but it's usually less popular than Sub CM due to its gratifying lategame sweeps and ability to bypass even faster checks under the right conditions.
Also, if I were you, I would avoid switching non-defensive Zapdos in on Heracross as much as possible. Adamant Scarf can 2HKO you with just its STABs after rocks and CB puts you in SR range where you're forced to attack and can't bring him back unless you get off a spin. He can revenge Heracross or force out Scarf it it already got a kill, but that's about as far as it goes.
You're placing too much weight on usage and relevance in a relatively balanced tier with so many options. One of the reasons it's hard to keep a consistently high score while laddering in this tier is that there are just so many dang surprises. Every other match is a new set/hidden gem that you didn't take into account when building the team. For example, do you realize how many teams are Galvantula weak these days? Preparing for the top dogs doesn't cut it anymore, you really do need to be ready for anything. I'm still on the lookout for that million-dollar combination myself.
As to why you're wrong about Clefable, it's much better now that Chansey is gone and fits perfectly in a hazard-obsessed metagame. A simple Encore set can beat most CM users, and wearing it down is simply not an option due to Magic Guard. As far as I'm concerned, it's as legitimate a counter to Zapdos as any other decent special tank.
Specially Defensive Deoxys-D is a huge roadblock to a lot of special attackers, including Zapdos, and a much better team player than his faster sets. All it needs is Taunt to prevent the Roost while its Tbolts fail to even 3HKO Deoxys. No Toxic necessary; Deoxys wins no matter what unless it's SubToxic, which is beaten by a lot more than Deoxys.
I probably should have said this earlier, but at this stage of UU, I don't think there is a legitimate king. The closest we have is Roserade, who is by and far the hardest to switch into of the above, and can influence an entire match with both of its most popular sets, regardless of checks on the opposing team. The saving grace, I think, is that its defense is crap enough to leave it vulnerable to Pursuit without even being Pursuit-weak and it doesn't quite hit the 100 club, so it has a few decent checks if you predict correctly. But still, with the hazards, immense power, coverage, and reliable Sleep move, most people will struggle in beating him more than they ever will Zapdos.
Am I the only one that doesn't use Roserade's Speed at all? I mean I invest in it, but nowhere near max. I just outpace various common Pokemon (it used to be Abomasnow, not sure about now), but otherwise I give it bulk to take Ice Beams - it's nice not having to worry about predicting when you switch into Suicune, Milotic, Empoleon, etc.
Sleep Powder is just too good of a move in this generation, but I'm not sure Roserade should be crowned "king" just for that.
Sleep Powder is just too good of a move in this generation, but I'm not sure Roserade should be crowned "king" just for that.
That's what I'm saying though. If Roserade isn't the best Pokemon in UU, I can't imagine anything else taking its place. I'm just going to say it's a five-way tie between my top picks. I was tempted to put Nidoking in there, but I think he'd want to at least tie with Roserade before we start talking about him being one of the greats.
I take it the lack of other responses in a while implies that the meta is pretty balanced, save for the issue of spikes/roserade. I also forgot who posted it, but Kabutops is a really nice spinner. His attack is threatening enough were certain ghosts will not like switching in, and even roserade might be a little hesitant to walk into a stone edge. However, as great as he is, I still hate that he pretty much loses to roserade.
The only spinner I might like to run to beat him is torkoal, but being SR and spike weak is a huge annoyance, and claydol has too many weaknesses.
The only spinner I might like to run to beat him is torkoal, but being SR and spike weak is a huge annoyance, and claydol has too many weaknesses.
Claydol is more of setup fodder than too many weaknesses, really.
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