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np: UU Stage 8 - I Remember

Discussion in 'BW UU' started by kokoloko, Sep 3, 2012.

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  1. DestinyUnknown

    DestinyUnknown in other words...
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    I simply don't use trick, it's not really needed if you have spikes because you can defeat Snorlax / Porygon2 with Hidden Power Fighting anyway. I see the usefulness of Trick on a Choice Scarf set, but Choice Specs Chandelure doesn't really need to use Trick. I mean, if you can't afford supporting Chandelure with Spikes, Trick is better because you can beat Snorlax / Porygon2 with it or at least cripple them for the rest of the match.

    I'm not saying Choice Specs Chandelure is the best set though (it was much better on round 6 imo), and I agree Subtitute Chandelure is better now. As I said, Specs Chandelure niche is wallbreaking so that's the reason to use it over other sets.
  2. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    Took the words right out of my mouth, DestinyUnkown. Specs Chandelure was best a few rounds ago when there was Spikes everywhere. Back in the Deo-D meta, the old senate and I did some exhibition matches at the Grotto, and all of us happened to be using Specs Chandelure, which was a bit trippy. I did not expect it to be as good as they claimed, but it depends on the teammates you have to take advantage of what you can make crumble before you're inevitably trapped (Krook was everywhere at the time too). Take a look at what Lure attracts: Swampert, Snorlax, P2, bulky Water-types...if you play your cards right, this is an inevitable Raikou sweep.
  3. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    This is where you lose me: Life Orb Chandelure is almost a better lure than Specs since it does almost the same amount of damage (and can still use 4 attacks....) but lets you switch attacks if you mispredict (ie use Fire Blast on a water type, Shadow Ball on a normal or dark type, or the worst of it: using energy ball on anything besides swampert and HP Fighting on anything except P2 or Snorlax). If P2 comes in on your Fire Blast, you can just HP Fighting it while it uses Discharge on you and you still survive easily. If Swampert or some other water-type absorbs your Fire Blast you can just Energy Ball it to hell.

    For example, with Spikes and Stealth Rock even Life Orb Chandelure still has ~85% chance to 2HKO with HP Fighting and you get the immeasurable benefit of not having to, you know, be locked into an non STAB Hidden Power with many dangerous resists and immunities (from things like Chandelure, regardless of the build you don't want to have to switch into it). I think Energy Ball is overrated anyway since Shadow Ball 2HKOes Swampert, Suicune, Rhyperior, etc. but if you really care you can use Life Orb + 4 attacks and do the same thing as Specs but be able to not be set up / trap bait (specifically for things like Band Cross and Escavalier).

    In short, as a lure set for something like Raikou, Life Orb Chandelure is almost as good at doing the actual damage of Specs (the multiplier is only weaker by .2, remember) since both will get the job done with HP Fighting and the Life Orb set is better in every other situation and doesn't completely lose you momentum / get you trapped if mispredictions occur. The only advantage would be Trick.
  4. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    I'm going to go out on a limb and say Flash Fire is unnecessary for Specs. How valuable do you think it is to completely eliminate a counter and punish Pursuiters with a burn instead of risking Darmanitan changing moves on you and using Earthquake? I personally don't try to switch Chandelure into any Fire attacks anyway because of the ease with which they can kill you if they use anything else, but I can see why it's a necessity for Sub sets.
  5. Nas

    Nas Thinking of a master plan...
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    Exactly, SJCrew. Every Fire-type (except for Arcanine, maybe) is capable OHKOing Chandelure with some other move, making it risky switching into them even with Flash Fire. Then, eliminating Porygon2 as a counter is way more valuable than gaining a mostly unnecessary Fire Blast boost from random Will-O-Wisp users like Sableye.

    I would even use Flame Body on Substitute sets, especially Substitute + Pain Split since you have no way to hit Porygon2 otherwise. Only 40% of Snorlax ran RestTalk in August, so HP Fighting as a whole doesn't seem worth it to me.
  6. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Not quite sure what this has to do with what I was talking about if it was directed at me (Life Orb vs Specs) but I do also think this being framed in a very one-sided way because you don't mention the upsides of Flash Fire or the downsides of Flame Body which almost undeniably put Flash Fire as better general option.

    So about Flash Fire vs Flame Body:

    I don't think removing one of the only chances Chandelure has to switch in is worth beating a very nonthreatening set up bait counter who's less common than the immense amount of Fire-typed moves (eg Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Flare Blitz, Will-O-Wisp etc) specifically coming from an influx of Choiced STABbed heavy hitting Pokemon or other Pokemon that Chandelure can switch in and beat (which I'll get into in a sec). Semi-related, I guess this is also a great time to bring up the fact that Life Orb Chandelure doesn't factor into the set up mons for your own Chandelure because it can switch attacks.

    Let's talk about what you can no longer switch into.

    Darma 2HKOes you with Flare Blitz, opposing Chandelure 2HKO you with Fire Blast, Victini 2HKOes you with V-Create, Arcanine 2HKOes you with Flare Blitz + Crunch/Wild Charge, the list goes on for these infinitely non KOes to 2HKOes. You also now lose to Zapdos if you switch into Heat Wave. Additionally, you also can't take advantage of Cofagrigus, Dusclops, (Choice Scarf variants can take advantage of defensive Mismagius) and any other random Choiced fire-type attacks such as HP Fire Roserade, Fire Blast Modest / Choiced nidoking, Fire Blast/Fire Punch Azelf, Choice Fire Punch Flygon. I've been laddering quite a bit and it's really not hard to get a Flash Fire boost from those Pokemon or use it to make Chandelure a great check / wall breaker.

    The burns from flame body are basically a nonfactor especially with Specs (Sub can at least bait out a couple more hits). You're not going to take a hit from anything physical and because you're choiced you really only have on chance to mispredict before you get Pursuited out.

    I mean you just do a simple cost/benefit analysis and see that not only does Flash Fire give you so much power but taking it away just leaves you without very important versatility options. Flame Body doesn't give you enough benefit to weigh up against the cost of losing Flash Fire, considering the only two things it does are maybe burning Bugs/U-turners who can not use it and OHKO you anyway and beating a nonthreatening counter (P2). Not that those aren't useful things, it's just they don't quite compare.

    Either way, whether you really want to use Flame Body or Flash Fire, Life Orb simply outclasses Specs.

    Also not like it actually matters but this embodies everything I just said about Life Orb all in one fight:
    Show Hide

    High Hopes joined.
    rolen120 joined.
    Format: UU
    Rated battle
    Rule: Sleep Clause
    Rule: Species Clause
    Rule: OHKO Clause
    Rule: Evasion Clause
    High Hopes's team: LO CHANDY BABY
    rolen120's team: Lickilicky / Chandelure / Lapras / Umbreon / Serperior / Machamp
    Mergy joined.
    Battle between High Hopes and rolen120 started!
    High Hopes sent out Swampert!
    rolen120 sent out Chandelure!
    Turn 1

    High Hopes called Swampert back!
    High Hopes sent out Escavalier!
    The foe's Chandelure used Energy Ball!
    It's not very effective... Escavalier lost 8% of its health!
    Turn 2

    Escavalier used Pursuit!
    It's super effective! The foe's Chandelure lost 100% of its health!
    Escavalier lost some of its HP!
    The foe's Chandelure fainted!
    rolen120 sent out Machamp!
    Turn 3

    High Hopes called Escavalier back!
    High Hopes sent out Froslass!
    The foe's Machamp used Fire Punch!
    It's super effective! Froslass lost 68% of its health!
    Froslass restored HP using its Leftovers!
    Turn 4

    Froslass used Spikes!
    Spikes were scattered all around the feet of the foe's team!
    The foe's Machamp used Fire Punch!
    It's super effective! Froslass lost 38% of its health!
    Froslass fainted!
    High Hopes sent out Chandelure!
    Turn 5

    rolen120 called Machamp back!
    rolen120 sent out Umbreon!
    The foe's Umbreon is hurt by the spikes!
    Chandelure used Substitute!
    Chandelure put in a substitute!
    Chandelure lost 25% of its health!
    The foe's Umbreon restored HP using its Leftovers!
    Turn 6

    Chandelure used Fire Blast!
    The foe's Umbreon lost 57% of its health!
    Chandelure lost some of its HP!
    The foe's Umbreon used Curse!
    The foe's Umbreon's Attack rose!
    The foe's Umbreon's Defense rose!
    The foe's Umbreon's Speed fell!
    The foe's Umbreon restored HP using its Leftovers!
    Turn 7

    Chandelure used Fire Blast!
    The foe's Umbreon lost 43% of its health!
    Chandelure lost some of its HP!
    The foe's Umbreon fainted!
    rolen120 sent out Lickilicky!
    The foe's Lickilicky is hurt by the spikes!
    Turn 8

    The foe's Lickilicky used Protect!
    The foe's Lickilicky protected itself!
    Chandelure used Fire Blast!
    The foe's Lickilicky protected itself!
    The foe's Lickilicky restored HP using its Leftovers!
    Turn 9

    Chandelure used Fire Blast!
    The foe's Lickilicky lost 70% of its health!
    Chandelure lost some of its HP!
    The foe's Lickilicky used Earthquake!
    It's super effective! Chandelure's substitute faded!
    The foe's Lickilicky restored HP using its Leftovers!
    Turn 10

    The foe's Lickilicky used Protect!
    The foe's Lickilicky protected itself!
    Chandelure used Fire Blast!
    The foe's Lickilicky protected itself!
    The foe's Lickilicky restored HP using its Leftovers!
    Turn 11

    Chandelure used Fire Blast!
    The foe's Lickilicky lost 36% of its health!
    Chandelure lost some of its HP!
    The foe's Lickilicky fainted!
    rolen120 sent out Lapras!
    The foe's Lapras is hurt by the spikes!
    Turn 12

    Chandelure used Substitute!
    Chandelure put in a substitute!
    Chandelure lost 25% of its health!
    The foe's Lapras used Hidden Power!
    It's super effective! Chandelure's substitute faded!
    The foe's Lapras restored HP using its Leftovers!
    Turn 13

    Chandelure used Pain Split!
    The battlers shared their pain!
    The foe's Lapras used Hidden Power!
    It's super effective! Chandelure lost 44% of its health!
    The foe's Lapras restored HP using its Leftovers!
    Turn 14

    Chandelure used Fire Blast!
    The attack of Chandelure missed!
    The foe's Lapras used Hidden Power!
    It's super effective! Chandelure lost 41% of its health!
    The foe's Lapras restored HP using its Leftovers!
    Turn 15

    Chandelure used Pain Split!
    The battlers shared their pain!
    The foe's Lapras used Hidden Power!
    It's super effective! Chandelure lost 46% of its health!
    The foe's Lapras restored HP using its Leftovers!
    Turn 16

    Chandelure used Shadow Ball!
    The foe's Lapras lost 38% of its health!
    Chandelure lost some of its HP!
    The foe's Lapras fainted!
    rolen120 sent out Serperior!
    The foe's Serperior is hurt by the spikes!
    Turn 17

    Chandelure used Pain Split!
    The battlers shared their pain!
    The foe's Serperior used Dragon Pulse!
    Chandelure lost 31% of its health!
    Turn 18

    Chandelure used Shadow Ball!
    The foe's Serperior lost 44% of its health!
    Chandelure lost some of its HP!
    The foe's Serperior fainted!
    rolen120: pain split should not be giving you more health than me...
    rolen120 forfeited.
    High Hopes won the battle!
    Ladder updating...
  7. /B/utterfree

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    Flash Fire is hands-down Chandelure's best ability overall. Without it, a lot of matchups against specific Pokemon would be instantaneously lost as even with Fire-type attacks not being very effective, stuff like Darmanitan can 2HKO it with Flare Blitz among the many other examples of match-ups lost that Heysup already provided.
  8. fatty

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    the top fire types are chandy, darmanitan, victini, and arcanine. only opposing chandelure and darmanitan are capable of ohkoing your own chandy, where as arcanine and vict have no chance. even with that said, the coverage moves for darm (eq / rock slide) are so easily taken by other fire-type checks that if you play smart, it shouldn't be a problem. furthermore, again, if you play smart, flash fire is far and away the best ability for chandy, as long as your carry something like a bulky water that makes sure opposing players can't just predict the shit out of your chandelure switch-in.
  9. Espo

    Espo

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    Arcanine can KO chand with Crunch and victini can at the very least 2KO.
  10. Nas

    Nas Thinking of a master plan...
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    CB Victini can also KO Chandelure with Zen Headbutt after SR. Anyway, saying that the ability is better if "you play smart" isn't a solid argument. At least when I use Flame Body on Chandelure I KNOW I won't be walled by Porygon2, and that is a pretty big deal considering it's one of the few reliable "counters" to Chand. The chance to Burn U-Turners and Pursuiters is just an added benefit. Also, Chandelure's main purpose is to wallbreak and Flame Body helps it accomplish that. I would not advocate using Hidden Power Fighting at all when it is such a bad move to be locked in to, not to mention it lowers your Speed IV, ensuring you'll lose speed ties to enemy Chandelure and other base 80's if the situation arises.
  11. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    @ Heysup: I was just veering off into a different subject I'd been thinking about recently since we were talking about Specs.

    Having a Fire-immunity is dandy, but it's still too risky for Chandelure to switch directly in on Fire-types when the other player knows you're coming. Ok, so Victini can only OHKO with CB Zen Headbutt after rocks. Or U-turn into a counter/Pursuit user. Or 2HKO with Fusion Bolt. These all result in a KOed Chandelure. If rocks are up, you'll probably be smart and switch into nothing unless it's free. Regardless, you will be getting in feasibly via U-turn, Scarf Heracross, Roserade, Bronzong, defensive Arcanine, Hitmontop, and Dusclops. I barely scanned the UU list to get those. The Flame Body burn is not that important, it's just a bonus. Focus on P2. If you see a P2, you have the advantage against every opponent relying on it as a counter, since it's one of the few widely accepted counters Chandelure has.

    If you can screw over one of the few Pokemon that don't allow you to spam Specs Fire Blast just by changing to another viable ability then I wouldn't even think about it. Just get a better Fire-type check, or take advantage of the fact that if your opponent is locked into a Fire move, they'll never stay in and attack Chandelure.
  12. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    @ RT: I think you kind of misunderstood his point. The ability is by far superior for the reasons we've already stated, but in addition, I think he meant that it scales well with skill. If you feel like taking a quick risk and switch Chandelure into something risky and land a Flash Fire boost you'll be rewarded if you're right. Without this, though, Flash Fire is still better because it allows you to beat threats without even being forced to switch in or "play smart", in terms of prediction. Unless he just meant "playing smart" in terms of only switching into Choiced attacks and WoW's.

    @ SJcrew: P2 is dealt with quite easily by anything else......you should be more concerned with other Flash Fire users and Snorlax because they are actually hard to switch into. Again I'm not saying Flame Body doesn't have situational uses (like if you're aiming specifically to remove p2 because you made a team that only cares about p2) but the lack of ability to switch into anything is bad.

    To clarify, I'm not suggesting you use Chandelure as your one Fire-type counter. I'm suggesting that, in addition to something like Swampert, Chandelure with FF is basically no risk and all reward where as Flame Body doesn't have adequate payoff.
  13. fatty

    fatty
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    actually, "playing smart" with a mon actually is a solid argument when talking in terms of ability's imo. in fact, a lot of mon's effectiveness hinge on whether you can utilize the mon correctly in conjuction with their ability. a lot of flash fire / storm drain / lightningrod pokemon fall under this category, but probably a more easier mon to explain it with would be dragonite in ou (sorry for the ou reference, but i feel it's needed to make my point). the whole reason dragonite is ou this gen is solely because of its ability, multiscale. with that said, though, it doesn't have much utility if you don't "play smart". if you're running a cb set or another set without roost, you can't go switching into attacks willy nilly. if you truly want to do damage or check an opposing threat using multiscale, you need to keep dragonite at feel health, which means predicting well by maybe switching into an earthquake or a non-threatening support move. continually, you also need to play well with your corresponding teammates by keeping stealth rock off the field, be it either with offensive pressure or utilizing a spinner correctly. if neither of these things are done, dragonite's tremendous asset in multiscale, pretty much the only thing keeping it as good a mon as it is, will be used in vein. this whole concept can be reflected onto chandelure in the same way, and as such i feel the skill level of the player directly affects which ability, flash fire or flame body, will be better in the long run.

    anyways, in an attempt to get off chandy, i've been meaning to start a discussion on what you guys think the state of HO teams are in uu, not including weather as we all know rain can be dominating. now, i'm not an HO player, but looking at all the tremendously powerful threats in uu and how a lot of ou teams are constructed, i've been wondering if some of the same tactics can be employed in uu. i bring this up because if i'm like a lot of other uu players, i almost strictly use solid bo teams with 1 or 2 win conditions. i want to know what strategies can help make a dominant HO team in uu, be it a fast spiker in the same vein as deo-d in ou combined with 5 strong attackers that synergize well, or something along the lines of "triple fire" like in the team hilarious posted.
  14. hilarious

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    Using multiple Fire Pokemon is helpful because it puts immense pressure on the opponent and requires no set up unlike the other forms of HO because it has such insane power from the get go.

    ...which is not likely unless something big happens like GameFreak releasing Drought Victini for UU players to use or something and yet even in this piece of programmed speech by mere AI there has to be some inkling of truth.

    Please let me explain to you why I believe Fire is the best offensive type in UU and why you should use some of them on your team.

    Statistics tell us so much and I don't mean August statistics because one of the only things we are capable of is ranting about how Ambipom sucks apparently. I mean the statistics that make up a Pokemon - their typing, move pool, ability and base stats which as you know is what essentially composes a Pokemon. There are six fire types in our tier, Darmanitan, Victini, Arcanine, Chandelure, Houndoom and Rotom-H. I will not be talking about Rotom-H because it is so different from most of Fire types from its lack of Flare Blitz/Fire Blast which I consider essential to a Fire Pokemon's success. I will also leave out much about Chandelure individually as the posters before me have already given good accurate information on it and its already agreed upon to be top tiered and much about Houndoom individually because I am unfamiliar with it, both facing it rarely and using it even more rarely.

    Darmanitan

    I will speak chiefly about Darmanitan and Vicitni as I have had great amounts of experience with them on the ladder. Statistically Darmanitan has the greatest attack power out of any UU Pokemon while retaining enough speed to outpace the common base 85 speed tier and enough bulk to use FlareBlitz multiple times after Stealth Rock without instantly dying. This alone makes it one of UU's top Pokemon. Power wise with Life Orb Darmanitan is essentially unrivalved except by Choice Band Victini which I will speak to shortly, and if it so chooses to run a Choice Scarf no Pokemon will have its combination of speed and power before set up. Its move pool is not wide but contains everything it needs, including the essential Flare Blitz and U-turn and coverage moves to hit Rock and Fire Pokemon. Fire is resisted by Rock and Water and Fire. Water is perhaps the most problematic because it takes up much of the tier, but realize that most Water do not have reliable recovey and cannot stand up to repeated assaults; Darmanitan can bypass counters with U-Turn. Darmanitan has only two problems a Stealth Rock weakness and being slower than some key threats like Flygon, which it can incidentally OHKO with an Adamant Life Orb after Stealth Rocks. Sheer Force is is crazy with Flare Blitz and Darmanitan making it almost unwallable except by Suicune and Slowbro

    Victini

    This is not only the bulkiest of the Fire five but also the strongest (I discount Choice Band Darmanitan because I find Life Orb to be superior on Darmanitan) and the fastest so something must be right here. Indeed almost everything is, with a Choice Band equipped Victini's damage output can far out muscle say Choice Band Dragonite doing enough damage to 2HKO the likes of physically defensive Milotic and offensive Swampert with just Stealth Rock - with the resisted V-Create. Don't try not getting blasted in two/one hit unless you have good defenses and a resist. Amazingly Victini is not lacking in Speed either being able to outpace fairly fast walls like Gligar after a speed drop which is cool and being able to outpace the majority of the offensive Pokemon before a drop. Victini more than any of the other Fire Pokemon helps set up late game win conditions because V-Create is easy to spam with perfect accuracy (after Victory Star) and a drawback easily offset by Choice Scarf. Victory Star makes V-Create never miss and Zen headbutt only miss one percent of the time which is fairly insignificant. Victini's movepool includes Fusion Bolt and many special moves like Thunder and Grass Knot to break through certain counters so it is not lacking at all.

    Arcanine

    This is the only Fire Pokemon that can competently use a defensive set but I will not talk about that since I want to speak to offensive Fire now. His power is very good but low compared to the other more terrifying Fire Pokemon so he poses a threat to offensive Pokemon but not often very bulky Pokemon. Flygon for instance is KO's by Flare Blitz and Extremespeed all the time and Arcanine still poses good defenses with Intimidate. This is what allows Arcanine to have a huge amount of switch ins compared to his fellow Fire Pokemon, being able to switch into Victini or Scrafty is useful. Move pool wise Arcanine has always been fairly shallow until this generation where he has a good six choices on offensive sets - Close Combat, Extremespeed, Morning Sun, Wild Charge, Crunch and of course Flare Blitz. Howl is mediocre as its hard counters will still beat it. Nothing will be spared either neutral STAB or Super Effective coverage move except Swampert which loses to three Close Combats. Arcanine is the least versatile though as it will almost always use a Life Orb attacking set.

    Fire

    Out of the statistics making a Pokemon I have not yet touched upon the type itself, Fire, which is undoubtedly one of the most offensive in UU if not the most offensive. They get the best attacking STAB moves, Flare Blitz and Fire Blast (and V-Create) which are all the strongest power moves in UU backed up by STAB and the strongest attack stats in UU. Because the Pokemon that resist them are hit by super effective coverage moves they will always lose if they try to counter multiple Fire Pokemon without recovery. For instance if Rhyperior has to switch into Arcanine's Flare Blitz and then eat a Close Combat, it will KO Arcanine but lose to the next Fire opening a line of attack by say a Victini. Houndoom can irreparably maul Fire resists with its secondary STAB Dark Pulse after luring them in and smacking them after a Nasty Plot or it can outright beat them one on one with Passho Berry.This can only be partially alleviated by running multiple Fire counters because the user loading up on Fire Pokemon will certainly have an answer to them - say a Roserade which can Spike down to further increase pressure. Chandelure despite attacking specially shares many of their checks and counters because they use the same STAB - Fire of course - which means bulky waters and Snorlax can often counter one but certainly not two or three or even four Fire Pokemon on the same team. Fire has its weakness but it does not need to let your opponent capitalize on them if it can just run a single defender to absorb moves and something else to use Rapid Spin for them. In any case teams that use multiple Fire Pokemon, I have seen a few of them on the ladder, must employ a fast lead to prevent Stealth Rocks or there will usually be too much pressure on the attacking Fire team to kill. By this I mean Darmanitan can no longer throw around U-Turns for fun or Victini can no longer count on its good bulk to check threats without risking huge residual damage. Fire Pokemon need little support, but if you do not have Houndoom or Chandelure you need a way to deal with Slowbro as well as defensive Arcanine and regardless you need a way to deal with Suicune. Those three threats are the only ones capable of taking repeated beatings from Fire Pokemon. It is very important to play logically, never lock yourself in for example a V-Create while your opponent has a Kingdra waiting to Rain Dance sweep you. Do not let Extremespeed Arcanine die if your opponent has a Sharpedo. Keeping this in mind will help keep your chances of winning high.

    too long, didn't read? look at this for info which is about the same as what i said
    just read the whole thing or it might not make too much sense (open)
    Using multiple Fire Pokemon is helpful because it puts immense pressure on the opponent and requires no set up unlike the other forms of HO because it has such insane power from the get go.

    ...which is not likely unless something big happens like GameFreak releasing Drought Victini for UU players to use or something and yet even in this piece of programmed speech by mere AI there has to be some inkling of truth.

    Please let me explain to you why I believe Fire is the best offensive type in UU and why you should use some of them on your team.

    Statistics tell us so much and I don't mean August statistics because one of the only things we are capable of is ranting about how Ambipom sucks apparently. I mean the statistics that make up a Pokemon - their typing, move pool, ability and base stats which as you know is what essentially composes a Pokemon. There are six fire types in our tier, Darmanitan, Victini, Arcanine, Chandelure, Houndoom and Rotom-H. I will not be talking about Rotom-H because its so different from most of Fire types from its lack of Flare Blitz/Fire Blast which I consider essential to a Fire Pokemon's success. I will also leave out much about Chandelure individually as the posters before me have already given good accurate information on it and its already agreed upon to be top tiered and much about Houndoom individually because I am unfamiliar with it, both facing it rarely and using it even more rarely.

    Darmanitan

    I will speak chiefly about Darmanitan and Vicitni as I have had great amounts of experience with them on the ladder. Statistically Darmanitan has the greatest attack power out of any UU Pokemon while retaining enough speed to outpace the common base 85 speed tier and enough bulk to use FlareBlitz multiple times after Stealth Rock without instantly dying. This alone makes it one of UU's top Pokemon. Power wise with Life Orb Darmanitan is essentially unrivalved except by Choice Band Victini which I will speak to shortly, and if it so chooses to run a Choice Scarf no Pokemon will have its combination of speed and power before set up. Its move pool is not wide but contains everything it needs, including the essential Flare Blitz and U-turn and coverage moves to hit Rock and Fire Pokemon. Fire is resisted by Rock and Water and Fire. Water is perhaps the most problematic because it takes up much of the tier, but realize that most Water do not have reliable recovey and cannot stand up to repeated assaults; Darmanitan can bypass counters with U-Turn. Darmanitan has only two problems a Stealth Rock weakness and being slower than some key threats like Flygon, which it can incidentally OHKO with an Adamant Life Orb after Stealth Rocks. Sheer Force is is crazy with Flare Blitz and Darmanitan making it almost unwallable except by Suicune and Slowbro

    Victini

    This is not only the bulkiest of the Fire five but also the strongest (I discount Choice Band Darmanitan because I find Life Orb to be superior on Darmanitan) and the fastest so something must be right here. Indeed almost everything is, with a Choice Band equipped Victini's damage output can far out muscle say Choice Band Dragonite doing enough damage to 2HKO the likes of physically defensive Milotic and offensive Swampert with just Stealth Rock - with the resisted V-Create. Don't try not getting blasted in two/one hit unless you have good defenses and a resist. Amazingly Victini is not lacking in Speed either being able to outpace fairly fast walls like Gligar after a speed drop which is cool and being able to outpace the majority of the offensive Pokemon before a drop. Victini more than any of the other Fire Pokemon helps set up late game win conditions because V-Create is easy to spam with perfect accuracy (after Victory Star) and a drawback easily offset by Choice Scarf. Victory Star makes V-Create never miss and Zen headbutt only miss one percent of the time which is fairly insignificant. Victini's movepool includes Fusion Bolt and many special moves like Thunder and Grass Knot to break through certain counters so it is not lacking at all.

    Arcanine

    This is the only Fire Pokemon that can competently use a defensive set but I will not talk about that since I want to speak to offensive Fire now. His power is very good but low compared to the other more terrifying Fire Pokemon so he poses a threat to offensive Pokemon but not often very bulky Pokemon. Flygon for instance is KO's by Flare Blitz and Extremespeed all the time and Arcanine still poses good defenses with Intimidate. This is what allows Arcanine to have a huge amount of switch ins compared to his fellow Fire Pokemon, being able to switch into Victini or Scrafty is useful. Move pool wise Arcanine has always been fairly shallow until this generation where he has a good six choices on offensive sets - Close Combat, Extremespeed, Morning Sun, Wild Charge, Crunch and of course Flare Blitz. Howl is mediocre as its hard counters will still beat it. Nothing will be spared either neutral STAB or Super Effective coverage move except Swampert which loses to three Close Combats. Arcanine is the least versatile though as it will almost always use a Life Orb attacking set.

    Fire

    Out of the statistics making a Pokemon I have not yet touched upon the type itself, Fire, which is undoubtedly one of the most offensive in UU if not the most offensive. They get the best attacking STAB moves, Flare Blitz and Fire Blast (and V-Create) which are all the strongest power moves in UU backed up by STAB and the strongest attack stats in UU. Because the Pokemon that resist them are hit by super effective coverage moves they will always lose if they try to counter multiple Fire Pokemon without recovery. For instance if Rhyperior has to switch into Arcanine's Flare Blitz and then eat a Close Combat, it will KO Arcanine but lose to the next Fire opening a line of attack by say a Victini. Houndoom can irreparably maul Fire resists with its secondary STAB Dark Pulse after luring them in and smacking them after a Nasty Plot or it can outright beat them one on one with Passho Berry.This can only be partially alleviated by running multiple Fire counters because the user loading up on Fire Pokemon will certainly have an answer to them - say a Roserade which can Spike down to further increase pressure. Chandelure despite attacking specially shares many of their checks and counters because they use the same STAB - Fire of course - which means bulky waters and Snorlax can often counter one but certainly not two or three or even four Fire Pokemon on the same team. Fire has its weakness but it does not need to let your opponent capitalize on them if it can just run a single defender to absorb moves and something else to use Rapid Spin for them. In any case teams that use multiple Fire Pokemon, I have seen a few of them on the ladder, must employ a fast lead to prevent Stealth Rocks or there will usually be too much pressure on the attacking Fire team to kill. By this I mean Darmanitan can no longer throw around U-Turns for fun or Victini can no longer count on its good bulk to check threats without risking huge residual damage. Fire Pokemon need little support, but if you do not have Houndoom or Chandelure you need a way to deal with Slowbro as well as defensive Arcanine and regardless you need a way to deal with Suicune. Those three threats are the only ones capable of taking repeated beatings from Fire Pokemon. It is very important to play logically, never lock yourself in for example a V-Create while your opponent has a Kingdra waiting to Rain Dance sweep you. Do not let Extremespeed Arcanine die if your opponent has a Sharpedo. Keeping this in mind will help keep your chances of winning high.


  15. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Heavy offense is certainly possible in UU. We don't have Deoxys-D, but we do have SR Nidos, Azelf, Smeargle, Rhyperior, Froslass, and Cobalion to lay down hazards. Basically we have no shortage in hazard setters that can start applying pressure from the get-go. Mix and match the many deadly hard-hitters in the tier, such as Victini, Darmanitan, Zapdos, Raikou, Kingdra, Heracross, Flygon, Crobat, Mienshao, and Cofagrigus and the opponent would have only enough time to react to your offensive assaults rather than executing their own offense. One of the perks of heavy offense is that it gives the opponent no time to set up hazards, so you don't need to pack the pussy move Rapid Spin. The battle usually ends within 20 turns for hazards to really take its toll.

    An interesting set I've encountered in the UU ladder that didn't seem like a total gimmick was NP Crobat. NP - Sludge Bomb - Air Slash - Giga Drain can be pretty darn devastating when combined with Crobat's Speed. It did an efficient job in cleaning up late game.
  16. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    I gotta say, hilarious that's pretty one-dimensional. Sorry if this draws back into our ff discussion, but it's really never a good idea to stack Pokemon with immunities, especially so many common ones (including very dangerous double resists like Kingdra) and when the Pokemon in question can be unexpectedly bulky and used together. Additionally, many of those Pokemon no matter how you slice it will be swept by Flygon since it's one of the fastest and common scarfers. Another issue is that none of those Pokemon have much sweeping potential. Darma obviously does, but only as scarf and you're suggesting a wall breaker. I mean, I think a far better strategy than the ones you've said so far is Life Orb Darma + Choice Scarf Chandelure maybe with a Pursuiter for other Chandelures. You'd also need some way to quickly get rid of Scarf Flygon.

    I think a far superior offensive strategy is to stack less but Spike more. I know this is my "thing" but even just one layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock make it very hard for anyone to do much of any reasonable defense against things with huge Megahorns like Band Cross or Escavalier or even huge Outrages, Seed Flares, etc. Basically, anything without a common immunity works well on any offense team with Spikes because it breaks walls down for a faster, weaker (though ideally strong enough), and dangerous late game cleaner. This way you can carry 2-3 bulky heavy hitters that make a decent core with some hazard-setters to round it out and maybe throw a pivot in there too. No reason to spam Fire-types...

    That's just how I do it anyway.
  17. Forsety

    Forsety

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    Where have you been? Latest stats basically indicate UU is biased towards all out HO, just look at this.

    Code:
        
         |###
     -1.5|#####
         |#########
     -1.0|#############
         |###################
     -0.5|########################
         |##############################
      0.0|#############################
         |#########################
     +0.5|####################
         |##############
     +1.0|########
         |######
     +1.5|###
         |#
     +2.0|#
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     +2.5|
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     more negative = more offensive, more positive = more stall
    There is a huge dropoff, higher than in OU or RU in styles of play rates, in fact the range of team types is much higher in OU/RU. Whilst RU and OU is actually even more offensive than UU on the extreme end, on the other hand defensively orientated teams don't see a sudden dropoff like with UU and there are higher numbers of full stall in both RU/OU.

    Meaning bulky offense, offensive, HO are standard. Whilst balanced, defensive balanced teams are increasingly becoming rarer or harder to use in UU right now and full stall teams are pretty much non-existant. Basically to summarize UU is the tier with the least variety of playstyles.
  18. fatty

    fatty
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    i have been right here, playing uu. i didn't say offense as a whole wasn't around, in fact i stated in my post that i use bulky offense most of the time and that's what i tend to see on the ladder. what i was trying to get at is strictly geared towards hyper offense, which tbh, i rarely see on the ladder. even then, i never said it didn't exist, i asked what's the state of it in uu and what are the best kind of strategies to employ atm to pull off a successful ho team.
  19. Ace Emerald

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    Wait, what? I apologize if I'm misreading you, but are you suggesting from that data that there is a bias towards offense? That is some really evenly split data, right at zero. There is a very very slight bias towards offense, but its really negligible. No idea where you see this drop off, the sides are near mirror images. The mean according to the thread is -.089, slight bias, but not even .1.
  20. hilarious

    hilarious

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    To be fair, I should have acknowledged I am being one dimensional because I am trying to convince people that stacking fire types is the best to stack and to try it out for themselves...its not like I am going to put all its weaknesses under a microscope. But lets look at them anyways since you brought them up.

    Fire really doesn't have many immunities. There are literally only three if we count Kingdra (which you honestly shouldn't). Chandelure and Houndoom are both weak to SR so they are already under immense pressure and can be easily taken out with coverage moves that every Fire Pokemon runs. Zen Headbutt mauls Chandelure. Earthquake will maim both from Darmanitan. Crunch or Wild Charge or Close COmbat from Arcanine will KO those immunities to fire. Houndoom and Chandelure are actually fire types themselves - certainly if they come in they won't be able to counter themselves. Shadow Ball from Chandelure does plenty to those Fire immunities and Houndoom will actually die with Chandelure if it switches into a Modest Scarf Chandelure using Shadow Ball. After SR, 2 shadow balls and a round of life orb Houndoom is dead and you can feel free to spam fire moves. Kingdra will be mauled by SR+Fire move+Coverage move/secondary stab move. if it was immune to fire it wouldn't be KOd but since its not it will be which is why I say you probably shouldn't call it a fire immunity.

    Let me think for a moment...no matter what I get swept by Flygon or at least my sweepers do. Ok thats pretty much true my sweepers always lose to Flygon. Luckily we have a few extra spots on our team which should be dedicated to stopping a full blown counter attack, say slapping on a bulky version Shaymin or something to switch into a stubborn bulky water that just won't die (slowbro -.-). It doesn't matter if something sweeps five out of six of your Pokemon as long as you can save that one Pokemon halting the sweep ad keep on applying pressure to your opponent - so they can't apply pressure to that saving Pokemon.

    This is not just me guessing about stuff I had a good triple fire team and it still works without gothitelle by the way, because I can just replace it with like Shaymin or Gothorita ( trick specs will still cripple/beat Suicune/Slowbro/P2/Snorlax/Milotic/Swampert) so I'm all set still.

    I am pretty surprised you don't think these Fire have any sweeping potential because I clean with them better than a quicker picker upper. LO Darm is fast and strong out speeding things like Kingdra and Roserade and Nidoking while being able to KO all of them, if Kingdra tries to switch into your FB. CS Victini is hellish to most offensive teams when they lose their fire resist because i can spam two consecutive V-Creates to usually get two consecutive KOs which puts me plenty ahead. I can just switch later.

    And I also have another good team (or two really, I promise you they are good) that stacks spikes and uses bulky attackers. Let me put the one I think is best here and why I think spamming fire types is an equally good strategy to it.

    Show Hide
    Froslass (F) @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Cursed Body
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
    Timid Nature
    - Ice Beam
    - Spikes
    - Destiny Bond
    - Taunt

    Cryogonal @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 Spd / 80 HP / 172 Def
    Timid Nature
    - Ice Beam
    - Hidden Power [Ground]
    - Recover
    - Rapid Spin

    Cofagrigus @ Leftovers
    Trait: Mummy
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 30 Def / 30 SAtk / 30 SDef / 2 Spd
    - Nasty Plot
    - Shadow Ball
    - Trick Room
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]

    Kingdra @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sniper
    EVs: 252 HP / 84 Spd / 120 Def / 52 SDef
    Careful Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Outrage
    - Sleep Talk
    - Rest

    Rhyperior (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Solid Rock
    EVs: 8 Spd / 248 HP / 244 SDef / 8 Atk
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Stealth Rock
    - Stone Edge
    - Dragon Tail

    Heracross @ Leftovers
    Trait: Guts
    EVs: 56 Atk / 252 HP / 144 Spd / 56 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Megahorn
    - Stone Edge
    - Swords Dance



    Apart from the fact I use a semi suicide lead (sometimes I like to hold on to Froslass which in my opinion is the greatest lead ever) this is really a bulky offense team. It is however...slow paced. Everything takes a long time to set up and attack with or else they will be hitting for low power usually. The problem with this type of team is you have to set up to do lots of damage (I don't have a choice bander/specs) and in that turn your opponent can steal momentum. You are setting up DD with Kingdra? Oh sweet lets go to Flygon and force you out while you do nothing. Trying to get pressure with Heracross? Watch it disappear as they go to Crobat. Of course I can predict but thats more or less a guessing game. I really like this team still and it works very well but it has problems fire stacking would never encounter and while it has benefits too its just different, not coming close to "far superior" in my opinion.

    But using a gigantic amount of strategies in this round, having tested Rain teams, spike stacking offense teams, triple fire teams, stall teams and even Ambipom teams is just how I do it anyway.

    As for the usage stats I think there is a pretty big bias towards offense in general but particularly bulky offense because the stuff between -.5 and 0 is really high...um I never liked graphs so I can only assume higher=more and -.5 to 0 is bulky offense right??
  21. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    You are kind of missing the point I was bringing up as well as underestimating Kingdra and overestimating Choiced Fire-types. You are also forgetting about Flash Fire Arcanine which is often used with offensive Life Orb sets too.

    The most prominent reason I brought these immunities up was because of your suggestion of stacking choice Fire-types. It is really easy just to counter one Fire-type with a bulky Water then if it happens to get severely weakened by LO Darmanitan or something then you have another Pokemon just ready to lol at CS Victini's V-Create spam or CS Chandelure's Fire Blast and set up. This is where Kingdra is the same as an immunity, if you're locked into Fire Blast and Kingdra comes in, you basically lose.

    On top of this, it's really easy to take those CS Pokemon out before the game even reaches the end stage because you're probably going to have to revenge kill something like LO Shaymin who outpaces your Darmanitan and comes in on your Slowbro or defensive Shaymin. Even CS Heracross will need to be checked. If you think you can predict killing the Fire-type check or immunity here every time, good luck, because good players will know what they're doing. Good offense players will only switch out if they have to, and usually they don't. I use FOUR Pokemon weak to Fire, and the Pokemon that get rid of the fire-types so easily aren't even the Fire-type checks that I have, it's the fact that I can abuse the use of Choice Scarfers based on their move. If you have CS Victini and you use Zen Headbutt or Shadow Ball to hurt Shaymin, well, you die to Earth Power. If I'm already weakened, and I die, great, I'll just Pursuit you away with Escavalier and now my CS Pokemon is basically unchecked since Shadow Ball and Zen Headbutt do lol damage to Escavalier. If you KO Shaymin with your Fire-type move, I'm going to set up with my Rain Dance / DD Kingdra or SubChandelure or Rhyperior, or Suicune, etc. The immunities aren't your first defense against Fire-type stacking but they are the reason your opponent can't sweep you before you set up and destroy them.

    The only Fire-types that can reliably hurt Kingdra and Flash Fire users such as Arcanine and Chandelure, are LO Darmanitan (which you mentioned) and LO Chandelure (which you didn't, you focused mostly on Choice Scarf). And yes, Chandelure checks Chandelure, if you've used Chandelure at all then that's one of the first things you notice. LO Darmanitan can only reliably KO after Stealth Rock since Flare Blitz does min 29 and Superpower does min 60%. Superpower is obviously not an attack you actually want to be using ever because it's so obvious once your Darmanitan is LO that you're going to use Superpower or Earthquake (which can't KO, btw).



    That reasoning is flawed because you give yourself an unfair advantage over the Flygon user by saying you have 6 Pokemon so you can have as many Fire-types as you want and then have something like Slowbro or Shaymin to check that one Flygon (though, it does have U-turn that dents both of them). If you consider the other side, that Flygon is also on a team of 6, your argument is severely weakened. Do you not think that Flygon will be set with 5 other Pokemon that can't break through Slowbro or Shaymin? Flygon and Escavalier are a perfect pair, for example. None of your Fire-types can even safely come into its huge Megahorn because of their SR weakness. It's also not just Flygon either, it's just generic fast Choice Scarf users that can spam any powerful attack that Fire-types don't resist.
  22. hilarious

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    In my experience with using my Fire teams you can pretty easily - even very easily - take out a bulky water if you just want to run Gothorita with Choice Specs or a Shaymin so they can't do much to you.

    You are of course skeptical of Gothorita I am sure but lets look at the bulky waters - Blastoise is weakened to the point of no return/killed, Swampert is killed, Milotic is weakened to the point of no return/crippled. Defensive Suicune is killed while ofensive Suicune is weakened to the point where its useless against walling. Slowbro is unarguably murdered. Goth would be running Trick/Tbolt/GKnot/Psyshock by the way with max speed and spa and modest, still has that awesome movepool. Incidentally its stronger than Scarf Gothitelle.

    Oh dear where did the tiers bulky waters just go? If you laugh at me for using Gothorita I laugh at you for failing to recognize these facts...

    This is what I say can happen...you set up hazards while Taunting your opponent...you start attacking so they bring in a bulky water...you trap and maul or kill it while they can do nothing...you spam your Fire moves if you can or if not you use coverage moves to kill your opponent's Fire resistor...you use your back up defensive Pokemon if they launch a counter attack...you finish them with your Fire moves. More or less this is the mold for your games, its nice also because you get to decide the pace of the game for the most part.

    I was using a Choice Scarf Chandelure in my example because I thought it was clearly more beneficial to your argument - its weaker, significantly. Ok Lfine, use a LO Chandelure now watch as even those stupid bulky waters fail to truly counter you as you can use that monster special attack to hurt them. Every single Darmanitan will run EQ or Rock Slide so it always kills Arcanine if it wants to switch in. i did forget about Arcanine with Flash Fiee completely though but it will die to Rock Slide from LO Darm even before hazards without intimidate.

    Scarf Flygon is actually the biggest problem because its the only one that resists fire and is faster than Choice Scarf Victini (well speed tie but you won't rely on that). You say Escalivier will screw something up and I'm like ok not only is Escalavier rare but where do you think you are coming in on? My Blastoise spamming Scald? Surely not a fire move!

    Yes triple Fire is weak to a team with multiple bulky waters, yes it weak to Choice Scarf Flygon, yes its weak to um Shed Shell Slowbro. Yes it also weak to SR Aero leads which will always get up SR for the most part if its paired with a good spinblocker. But why do you not mention a single one of its strengths in either one of your posts?! No reason at all to spam fire types? What about the fact that Fire types have access to just about the most powerful STAB moves in Flare Blitz and Fire Blast and of course V-Create? Or the fact that the only defensive Pokemon that resist them are weak to Gothorita? Or even the fact that unlike other forms of offense you will never need to set up? I never said this was an awesome wonderful strategy (well I did but i was joking sort of and edited that out of my post like a week ago) but it is certainly usable.
  23. Mazz

    Mazz UU's Workhorse
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    Hell, if they're dropping, might as well start something.

    Saw this in the usage stats thread, and it's a fair question. If Virizion drops, how will it affect the metagame? It pressures the bulky Water-type Pokemon, who are already pressured a fair bit because of other Grass- and Electric-type Pokemon. I also feel its going to push the usage of Cobalion and Shaymin further into the ground, as it will be seen as a better, if not more popular, Fighting- and Grass-type in general. It's still got its checks and counters (hell, I figure it'll play out like Scrafty did, high usage the first few weeks, then mellow out) and won't be considerably broken. Strictly my opinion, but I feel that the special set will be Virizion's crux in Underused. There's far too many better Fighting-type Pokemon with much better Attack (see Heracross, Mienshao, etc), and mixed sets in general don't fare out well, unless your name is Deoxys-A.

    I'm also rather curious as to how Tornadus and Meloetta will play out in UU. Tornadus is practically a full stop to Sableye if it runs Taunt, and makes rain much more deadly thanks to its STAB Hurricane and Prankster Rain Dance. I never played UnderUsed when Tornadus was still in this tier (early 2011-ish?), so I ask those that were; how did it play out? How successful was it? In my own opinion, I feel that the BU Acrobatics set will be Tornadus' crux in the tier, simply because its arrival may coax users to lean on Snorlax, Porygon2, and even Umbreon, which gives Tornadus a free turn to set up and begin wrecking hell. A Rain Dance set I believe won't be as easily maintained, as those mentioned Pokemon won't be beaten as easily by Tornadus, and it loses out on a lot of the power gained by Choice Specs. Meloetta, I've never actually used in OU, and have only played it three times, so I won't cover anything about it, as I'll just be running my mouth. However, how do those that have used it before feel it will play out?

    Last bit here, but I have serious doubts to a "permanent", if you will, home in Underused for Abomasnow and Mew. I feel each will go their separate ways, with Mew being sent back to BL, and Abomasnow to BL2 at the highest. Mew was just too good for UU when it was around, simply because it made Kingdra look predictable. This thing could run, what, three or four sets, and all of which could punish quickly and effectively? Abomasnow just doesn't have anything going for it in this tier without Snow Warning, as it's just too slow, too frail, and doesn't have enough raw power to take advantage of. Losing out on that 100% accurate Blizzard won't be doing it many favours.

    Thank god Chansey won't be dropping. And welcome to UU Cofagrigus. It's about damn time.
  24. superbadd

    superbadd

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    Mew was never BL. Nor was it "too good" for uu. It's really good, but manageable. Btw aboma is nothing w/o hail, it will be NU if it drops/ continues dropping.
  25. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    You can't be using all of those sets of the same Pokemon, you're not going to have any sweeping potential without using a scarf something that is going to be used as revenge killing instead of sweeping a lot more than you'd like. That's where it just dies out before you can fully use it.
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