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NP: UU - Zero to Hero

Discussion in 'UU' started by JabbaTheGriffin, Sep 7, 2010.

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  1. umbarsc

    umbarsc

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    I haven't tried out the Scarf set yet, but in my experience with the 4 Attacks set, prediction hasn't been a problem, mainly because Facade has great neutral coverage. The Pokemon that can switch into it are all pretty bad switch-ins, because they are OHKOed by the following Close Combat (bulky Rocks/Steels), OHKOed by MEgahorn (Spiritomb), or are unable to OHKO and are taken out by Night Slash (Mismagius, Rotom).

    I'm not sure how I feel about Heracross' tiering. On the one hand, I like Heracross' presence; having a powerful Pokemon helps make the tier more structured, and I haven't had too many troubles facing him, since I'm pretty much an entirely offensive player. On the other hand, I tried to make these arguments about Gallade in the past, and Gallade was banned for it. However, with Gen V here, I'd rather not argue about this tiering issue, and I'd rather we make the correct decision than the least hypocritical one.
  2. shrang

    shrang I AM CHAMPION CHRISTMAS!!
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    Yeah, people are really overestimating Heracross' bulk, especially if you want to take advantage of his power and his reasonable speed (So yeah, 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe). Taking 40%+ from Milotic's Surf isn't something I want my Heracross to eat every time he needs to switch in, especially a Pokemon who has Toxic/Burn damage (Along with SR and possibly Spikes) coupled along with that. You are practically taking about 60% damage after one attack. Another Surf from that Milotic will kill you (And for good measure, 252/252+ Milotic only takes 60.41% - 71.57% from +1 Megahorn/Close Combat).
  3. umbarsc

    umbarsc

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    That's a dumb example, Milotic has solid offenses for a wall, and Heracross is switching into its strongest attack. Furthermore, Heracross would never be switching into Milotic, because it doesn't come close to OHKOing and Milotic would just stay in to attack again.

    Better examples would be Spiritomb, Torterra (defensive), or Registeel. Those are the kinds of things Heracross can switch into.

    But really, like with every offensive Pokemon, the best way to get Heracross in isn't to directly switch into damaging attacks, but through U-turn, smart double switching, and non-damaging attacks (particularly easy with a status immunity).
  4. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    Cool I lost my large post because of the random server crash.

    Quick summary of it, Heracross has plenty of opportunities to switch in on and beat things on an offensive and balanced team including things like donphan, torterra, toxicroak, hitmontop, milotic (whoever said milotic 2hkos heracross with sr was stupid), spiritomb, drapion, non-sub/wow rotom, and non-life orb mismagius. I did all the calcs and explained things for all of these and a few other less obvious ones (like registeel, which I didn't mention because it was a complicated explanation that I don't feel like re-typing) so just take my word for it, if you cannot find opportunities to get heracross in on all kinds of teams you are either not a very good player or you are facing an opponent who has overprepared.
  5. shrang

    shrang I AM CHAMPION CHRISTMAS!!
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    o_0 What can't switch into those?? Deoxys-A?? Alakazam?? You get my point. Any "bulky attacker" doesn't care about them. You won't want to switch Heracross handy-dandy into Thunder Wave either. Anyway, Milotic was mentioned before as a list of walls Heracross can switch into (Maybe wrong, but whatever). Point is, Heracross is not as bulky as people make him out to be.

    EDIT:

    I didn't say with SR, I said with Toxic Orb and SR. How is it stupid?? Check the calcs yourself:

    0 SpA Milotic vs 4/0 Heracross: 43.05% - 50.99%

    Happy??
  6. umbarsc

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    It's actually 35-41%. But close, though.
  7. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    Uh, your calcs are pretty obviously off. Heracross is never 2hko'd by Milotic after SR. The orb set is, sure, but the orb set shouldn't be switching into Milotic. CB and SubSD can pretty easily though.

    Heracross is bulky because it has excellent resistances and very good special defense combined with average defense, and therefore it can come in on all sorts of Pokemon. The orb sets obviously have less durability, but even they can manage to get in on things like Torterra and physical Sceptile/Venusaur.
  8. shrang

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    Yeah, yeah I got my calcs wrong (I used physical defense instead, lol). Sorry about that. Still, you're taking ~48-54% just switching in factoring Stealth Rock, though, so it's still not something you want to be switching willy-nilly. I never said Heracross was frail, it's just not as bulky as people are making him out to be.
  9. Thund91

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    Not to mention you want to be Close Combating Milotic anyway, so you're gonna eat a Surf with -1 SpD the next turn, or it will just Recover stall you with Megahorn's shitty accuracy and eventually win. So yeah Milo > Hera.
  10. FlareBlitz

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    No, Milo not > Heracross, it can't recover stall more than one Megahorn from CB/Guts, if it tries against SD variants Cross will just SD up and wreck your goofy ass. I guess it does beat scarfcross one on one...but you shouldn't be switching in a scarfer on a fucking wall anyway...
  11. Thund91

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    Bulky water Milotic's Surf vs min/min Heracross = 35.9% - 42.2%
    Bulky water Milotic's Surf vs min/min -1 Heracross = 53.2% - 63.1%

    Just needs SR. No Heracross besides the SD variant (which needs to use SD as to not die from the 2nd Surf) can switch into Milotic. It can come in after a kill and on an Ice Beam / Recover, but it's gonna be nearly dead after it kills Milo, or she'll just switch out.

    SD variants don't do so hot either because a lot of the time you need perfect prediction to know when to attack or stat up against Haze or Recover.
  12. FlareBlitz

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    No one is going to use Close Combat against Milotic because a) it's going to cause Cross to die, as you pointed out and b) Megahorn has no immunities so it's more spammable. Same reason Stone Edge > EQ as a spamming move on CBperior despite the lol accuracy. So all CB Cross has to do is come in on surf, use Megahorn and do like 70%, and then use Megahorn again and kill Milotic if it was stupid enough to do anything other than switch out to Weezing or something. Of course Weezing has to watch out for Double-Edge...but yeah.
  13. Thund91

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    My original point was supposed to be that Heracross isn't as bulky as people make it out to be, but I digressed.

    Sacrificing half your health just to have a Pokemon switch out is >____>. Specs Missy can 2HKO Milotic too but I wouldn't be switching it into Milotic either. There are better Pokemon for this role like Toxicroak, or Venusaur, or whatever (and I just fucking hate Megahorn because it misses more than Hypnosis....so yeah).

    I guess I was just a little taken aback that people are so ready to switch in their Heracross into Milotic when it really shouldn't be doing so unless absolutely necessary...but that's just imo.
  14. Meru

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    Considering Milotic has the same SpA as Starmie and Surf is its most powerful attack, not being 2HKO'd by it without resistance is pretty damn bulky.
  15. Heysup

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    There are no words that could possibly explain how irrelevant this is.

    Heracross is really not that bulky. Particularly if you're using a Flame Orb set or a Life Orb set, you're not going to be able to switch into much at all. Most of Heracross's resistances are physical, which is his weaker defense, meaning that they will still hit pretty hard regardless. After Flame Orb activates, you also lose 12.5% whether you do damage or not. This means someone can switch in their Ghost into your CC, and you lose 12.5% HP.

    Additionally, Close Combat, when they don't switch in a Ghost, will drastically reduce Heracross's ability to take hits. Megahorn is Heracross's spam attack, but Close Combat is definitely going to be used very often, and it will likely end up being the reason Heracross is forced out even if the Pokemon isn'T usually a counter.
  16. supermarth64

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    I feel the need to comment about this. You call Gallade "bulky" because of his Special Defense, whereas in reality Gallade is only about 8.34% more specially bulky than Heracross. Gallade has it much worse off in terms of bulk, having no physical resistances except for Fighting whereas Heracross has Fighting, Ground, Dark, etc etc and is 21.72% more physically bulky than Gallade.
  17. PoJ

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    I actually think Heracross is pretty in-the-middle. Gallade isn't that bulky at all, it's only in his SpDef. Let's compare their Defs:

    Heracross:
    HP- 80
    Def-75
    SpDef-95

    Gallade:
    HP-68
    Def-65
    SpDef-115

    They're both pretty bad on the Physical side, but they get better on the Special side (Mostly Gallade). But, Heracross' HP is much better, and 75 Def is much better than 65 Def. Gallade is only more defensive in terms of Special Defense.

    But they both can't take much hits without good HP investment.
  18. Meru

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    Heracross has very very similiar stats to Venusaur who we also consider a bulky special attacker. Really, stop being pedantic. Heracross is pretty bulky for a pokemon with 125 base attack.
  19. FlareBlitz

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    There is nothing wrong with an offensive Pokemon losing around 40% of its health from a non-resisted attack when switching into one of the strongest bulky pivots in the tier, especially considering that very little else in the tier can pull that off. You are actually correct in that Heracross really doesn't want to switch into Milotic unless necessary, because Donphan/Torterra/Spiritomb/Toxicroak are all much safer switch-in opportunities...but the relevant point is that it can if it really needs to.

    Guys keep in mind that Heracross's defenses are almost exactly the same as Venusaur's, on both sides. Last time I checked, Venusaur was fairly bulky.
  20. Ghost.

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    ~Venusaur doesn't have to deal with recoil -no matter what- it does, or lose hp from substitutes (usually).

    ~Heracross doesn't have reliable recovery which is unbelievably useful on a semi bulky poke like Venusaur,Moltes (even ignoring SR), Arcanine etc. It allows them to USE their resistances to switch in throughout the match. Heracross can't use his resistances more than twice on a good day from experience.

    Just an example of this, you can't just come in on a Donphan because you think you are bulky enough to take it. 35.5% - 41.9% from an Earthquake, or even 35.9% - 42.2% from a CB Tomb Shadow Sneak.
    You may say 'OH BUT YOU DONT SWITCH IN TO STUFF!!!' but then those of you who say it can switch into lots of things easily are losing the argument.

    ~Venusuar isn't going to potentially be at -1 Def & SpD.

    I'd say it does have bulk but it seems a bit artificial when you take into account these other things.

    You have bulk but if you try switching into anything, you are going to dramatically reduce the survivability of Cross. You sort of can't afford to use it unless you really HAVE to take that 1 attack here or there.


    FlareBlitz basically hit the nail on the head with ''but the relevant point is that it can if it really needs to.''
  21. uraga

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    I'm just wondering, since I didn't play much UU when Gallade was here, how did Gallade usually come into the battle? I don't mean to directly compare Gallade and Hera in terms of being broken, but if Hera not being able to switch in is a point against its brokenness then how did Gallade come in with his vulnerability to status, less impressive set of resistances, and lower overall bulk?
  22. shrang

    shrang I AM CHAMPION CHRISTMAS!!
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    You forget that Starmie runs max SpA with a Life Orb and Milotic runs no SpA EVs and Leftovers?? The power difference is huge.
  23. Heysup

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    Basing bulk solely on stats is completely inaccurate, you're forgetting two of the most important parts: typing and items. Gallade, while it has arguably worse "overall" resistances, it does not have an easily exploitable 4x weakness to flying and 2x weakness to Fire and Psychic. Those are arguably the three most common Special sweeping types. Gallade can take on offensive special sweepers because it isn't OHKOed by random HP Flyings, and it survives Fire Blasts and it can take Psychic from Pokemon like Uxie (and if it "has" to, it can switch into Zam and OHKO it with SS).

    Think about who resists or isn't weak to the most relevant attacks. Obviously Heracross has its fair share (namely Earthquake and Sucker Punch, though it's avoidable anyway), but Gallade's just seem more relevant to me.

    As for items, Heracross with Flame Orb loses an absurd amount of health per turn when it switches in with 75% (SR + Flame Orb) max and goes down from there. People have been forgetting this quite a bit.


    You're forgetting that Heracross switches in with 75% assuming Flame Orb is activated, meaning two Surfs and its done.

    I personally much prefer Offensive Restalk to Flame Orb for this reason, but people are definitely using Flame Orb + 4 Attacks for their argument.
  24. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    No one is talking about the Flame Orb set being able to switch into Milotic. I figured me saying "of course the flame orb set shouldn't switch into milotic" would have been a pretty fucking major clue, but I suppose not.

    And while we're being "accurate"...when Heracross switches into Milotic it takes less damage from Surf than Venusaur does from Ice Beam (since we're assuming the Milotic user predicts perfectly and doesn't just whiff a Toxic/HP Grass on Cross). When it attacks, it threatens possible switch-ins WAY more than Venusaur just through sheer power and coverage (and I would love to hear you mention sleep powder right now mr. "hey guys it's just another attack"). While it doesn't have instant recovery, it does have nearly the same defensive stats as Venusaur, which is the only thing that is relevant on a choice set. Really we could sit here going back and forth but in my (albeit brief) experience I found that getting Heracross in on the strength of its earthquake resistance and then doing actual damage with non-shitty coverage was a lot easier than it is with Venusaur...which was the entire point behind the bulk discussion
  25. Ghost.

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    Change of subject!

    What leads are people having success with in the Hera meta?

    I've personally hopped on the Missy bandwagon and can't get enough of her.

    Best bits:

    ~Suprising amount of bulk on both sides if you get a burn off
    ~Gets momentum like a freight train on steroids at the beginning of a match
    ~Nails Hera for 50%+
    ~Tramples stall whilst ScarfHerra cleans up offence
    ~Squishes set up

    I'm using:

    Mismagius@Life Orb
    Levitate | Timid
    140 HP | 224 SpA | 144 Spe
    -Pain Split
    -Will o wisp
    -Shadow Ball
    -Taunt

    Pain split rather than thunderbolt just 'cause it break stall alot easier. Enough HP to never be OHKOEd by Jolly Scarf Hera Night Slash after 1 x LO. Originally had enough speed to outpace 176 Uxie but upped it when a Venomoth fucked me hard, upped it again to outspeed Rotom. Rest in Spa (deals like 49.8 min. to Hera).

    The only thing I don't like is that it is quite hard to find a free couple of turns to get my SRer (Steelix) in to lay dem rocks.

    [​IMG]
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