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Announcement np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by gr8astard, Jul 11, 2014.

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  1. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Certified Lumberjack
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    Nice and clean contradictions. EQ is not the most spammable move just because it has 100 BP. It has many Pokemon that are immune to it and generally has worse coverage relative to our specific metagame than EQ does outside of Aegislash. Moves like Close Combat or Fire Punch generally have better coverage by hitting more things than EQ does. Examples include Skarmory, Rotom-W, Ferrothorn, Scizor, etc. Not to mention Close Combat has 20 more BP than EQ and generally the drop in defenses won't matter to an offensive Pokemon. THAT is why Aegislash centralizes the metagame around EQ. Anything that doesn't get STAB from it would most likely not use it if it weren't for Aegislash. It's not like Gen V where Jirachi and Rain made EQ a more viable option.
    Jaiho, the-bumper-car, Air and 4 others like this.
  2. Ropeburn

    Ropeburn

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    Oh my god, are you kidding me? You're calling ground a poor attacking type, calling Earthquake a liability, and claiming that OU is bursting at the seams with fire types. I don't even know where to start on correcting you, since you've engraved that Aegislash is the core problem of something you seem to have no experience with. Pokemon have been running Earthquake and Fire Blast for gens now, so I'm not sure where you got the idea that Aegislash is the reason these moves are seeing so much play.

    Also the reason that there aren't that many ghost types in OU is because all of the ghost types outside of Sableye, Aegislash and Gengar are utter garbage at high level play in OU. Ghost is like the rarest typing in the game.
  3. Starfall11

    Starfall11

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    Agreed. KS relies on proper prediction much like sucker punch. Guesswork is a poor excuse for someone unable to predict in pokemon. Luck is luck. Swagger, confuse ray, and thunder wave's paralyze chance is also luck. 1/4 chance of being unable to move. KS can be exploited with status, set up, subsititutes and proper switching. It can be exploited even more than protect can be.

    Let's stop claiming KS is a factor with Aegislash's ban.
  4. RoyalDispenser

    RoyalDispenser

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    I was in agreement with your post, I wasn't posting in concern or arguing with anything. I ment just cause heatran has very few checks and counters we should ban him too.. apparently not so why aegislash who is checked much easier? I'm trying to compare BIGGER threats.. or atleast more common threats that can shut teams down if their only counters are killed or never used.

    Most of what people are complaining about seems to be that they can no lower spam overkill BP moves like CC anymore.. or they just lost a prediction on KS, got pissed, Closed their laptop, made a sandwich and asked for a suspect. :toast:

    I think half the arguements are seriously bias personal feelings torwards actually having to deal with something that actually blocks the most dangerous moves in the game.

    I want scizor banned as it gets in the way of my latias.. I DEMAND A SUSPECT! (not really..but same case for some)
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2014
  5. Starfall11

    Starfall11

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    Give this man an award. The last paragraph of your post is brilliant. That's literally why people are calling it to be banned. Heatran, among many other OU pokemon can be more threatening in the right circumstances.
    RyanKoopa likes this.
  6. Sun King

    Sun King formerly ;lmlm

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    Actually, thank you for catching that. Sometimes I get carried away with my descriptions. However, I wouldn't throw EQ under the bus quite yet. Yes, there are many things immune to it; yes, there is now an opportunity cost to clicking Earthquake. What I meant was that Earthquake is still a great attacking move, and Aegislash isn't the sole reason. Off the top of my head, Charizard X is a fantastic reason to run Earthquake. It still covers fire types and electric types.

    EDIT: Just looking at the viability rankings, there are a number of pokemon that don't like EQ, so DON'T tell me it's all about Aegislash. Some of these pokemon include: Excadrill, Bisharp, Mawile, Tyranitar, Heatran, and Terrakion.
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2014
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  7. Lord Cilan

    Lord Cilan

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    Oh, I apologize then. Its seems it is I who misunderstood you :toast: sorry bout dat. Thanks for backing me up then!
    RoyalDispenser likes this.
  8. AnishSomani

    AnishSomani

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    Sp def Gliscor counters aegi so all that about no counters is false
  9. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Certified Lumberjack
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    Five of those Pokemon are hit super-effectively by Close Combat, and the other is hit super-effectively by Fire, which just so happen to be the two types of moves that would replace EQ if it weren't for Aegislash :toast:

    But I appreciate your calm and respectful tone in this type of thread where many people often get carried away with arguing (myself definitely included).
  10. RoyalDispenser

    RoyalDispenser

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    As much as we know that already you're going to have to explain how when bringing subjects like this up. Simply saying "This pokemon kills this one" without calcs or explaining a pattern of movesets or predictions isn't a viable thing to consiture without deep thought.
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    In reguards to the "having to run EQ" arguement is rather biased.. first of all, I ran EQ on my pinsir just cause..

    252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 117-138 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 141-166 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Not a big difference really..

    With SR and a swords dance.. it's would be counters that "close combat" would kill would be killed without it. EQ just gives him not only fire and steel covered, but also doesn't get a defense drop. Even with aegislash gone ghost like gengar will still stop CC (and EQ respectively!)

    Besides rotom-W sometimes run scarf which pinsir never outspeeds to CC reguardless..

    Aegislash can say IT'S WALLED by pinsir because pinsir scares it with the possibly of EQ!
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2014
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  11. Sun King

    Sun King formerly ;lmlm

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    I just don't like escalating things into ad hominem arguments, that's all. And you're absolutely correct, CC hits harder. The point I'm getting at is Earthquake is useful beyond Aegislash, and while CC may hit harder, Earthquake can get the job done too.
  12. tyking1224

    tyking1224

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    RoyalDispenser :While Return could kill Rotom-W with SR and +2 Attack, it's still not guaranteed, whereas Close Combat is a guaranteed OHKO with SR while having a 56.3% to OHKO with the set you're currently using to calc Rotom-W. And, even without a SD...

    252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 106-125 (34.9 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 87-103 (28.7 - 33.9%) -- 2.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    Against physically defensive Rotom-W, it's fairly obvious that CC is definitely the better option (SD makes it so that both of them net the 2HKO, but CC still outdamages Return, so bleh).

    As for your point about Gengar, you know Gengar would completely bypass EQ, right? Not only that, but MegaPinsir does have a guaranteed OHKO on Gengar with a +2 Quick Attack, so yeah.

    And MegaPinsir does not wall Aegislash, period. With EQ, it can only be a check, not a counter.
  13. RoyalDispenser

    RoyalDispenser

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    1. I did say that gengar would block CC and EQ respectivitly.
    2. I said pinsir should never really be trying to counter rotom-W as scarf rotom will murder it reguardless (or will-o-wisp).
    3. True good point, a check would be a better word to call it.. but again that just adds to the checks and counter list for slash!

    Here's the deal.. pinsir goes for CC or return.. rotom comes in.. if rotom is scarfed, it'll just OHKO with volt switch.. if rotom is not scarfed.. it'll live a second hit to burn and cripple reguardless. What's the difference?
  14. Subject 18

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    What exactly does Mega Pinsir gain by running Earthquake over Close Combat? You haven't mentioned this yet but you keep saying it has it's uses.


    Also RoyalDispenser, since when is Pinsir a Rotom-W counter ?_?
    AM and the-bumper-car like this.
  15. Sun King

    Sun King formerly ;lmlm

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    It hits Mawile, for starters. It also hits Zard-X harder. Also, if you have one SD up, you can OHKO T-Tar. I KNOW you can OHKO it without any boosts with CC, but Pinsir can force switches just fine.
    RyanKoopa and RoyalDispenser like this.
  16. RoyalDispenser

    RoyalDispenser

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    I never said pinsir IS a rotom-w counter, one of the main reasons pinsir runs CC is specifically for rotom, skarmory, and heatran.. two of which are still threats and checks, while the other is generally a no go.

    My point in that arguement is EQ isn't ran on pinsir just because aegislash is lurking around.. it's ran because return RESISTED does similar damage to rotom as CC, and either way is killed or burned by rotom reguardless.. making CC not really nessecary if it's only off by like 5-10 percent.. both a 2HKO or 3HKO on physically defensive rotoms with rocks and leftovers.. EQ on the other hand does handle heatran still, aegislash, charizard X, mawile, and many many other threats where it actually shows in the calcs..

    In skarmory and air balloon heatran's case.. well you can't counter everything.

    Anyway, EQ isn't ran on certain pokemon just because aegislash threatens them.. it's ran because it counters many other things as well and I really don't think pinsir appreciates a defense drop..
  17. Sun King

    Sun King formerly ;lmlm

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    If what you mean by this, you're saying it's okay that Mega-Pinsir can blow through its current counters by using CC? Because by the logic some people are using in this thread, "Uncounterability is grounds for ban." Even if that argument is faulty, Mega-Pinsir is going to become a major pain in the ass, and will likely draw the ban anyways. I'm not really sure why we're talking about Mega-Pinsir though, because this thread is Aegislash's Suspect Thread.
  18. RoyalDispenser

    RoyalDispenser

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    We've bought pinsir up because you bought up the subject reguarding EQ.. and I supported it with calcs..

    This HAS to do with aegislash.. the biggest arguement is he's "Overcentralizing" or that "Pokemon now must carry EQ JUST because of him"

    I'm supporting your logic by saying we'll be seeing EQ on pokemon like pinsir reguardless of aegislash being banned or not. Aegislash has plenty of counters, and even pokemon that aegislash would counter can actually back fire with decent prediction. You can read last page or two on that.
  19. BCE

    BCE

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    that is easy, pinsir mold breaker can kill rotom with earthquake before mega evolving
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  20. Subject 18

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    So basically it hits mawile a little harder? That's all? Earthquake doesn't even hit zard x that much harder than Return...

    252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 228-268 (76.5 - 89.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 228-270 (76.5 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Anyway...

    What are you talking "similar damage?" A 9% difference is not similar all lol.

    No it's not run because Return does similar damage (which is doesn't) it runs it for one Pokemon. All the other Pokemon you mentioned are beaten by Close Combat like heatran, Skarmory loses 50-60% from a +2 CC and return for Zard like I already mentioned.

    It's an Offensive Pokemon, why do defense drops matter? The only thing that it really fears is a cbnite after a couple of drops but even then switch out... It's not like Pinsir is really taking hits when it's trying to sweep..

    That would be great and all but it clearly tells you that Pinsir is breaking the mold. So why is Rotom-W still being sent you when it's basically telegraphed to the other player that it has earthquake and mold breaker?
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  21. Devious

    Devious

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    I just want to bring up some points/questions that I haven't seen addressed in skimming through this thread. If they have been addressed or are not valid feel free to dismiss them.

    A lot of people keep touting aegislash's 150/150 offenses as something unimaginably strong. The issue is that Aegislash, although it does have a lot of great options available, doesn't have the most powerful attacks to back up those stats. It's strongest stab attacks are all 70-80 base power compared to the powerful options available to other offensive pokemon, like chandelure's 110 fire blast @ 147 special attack. Taking into account the the 130-110 base power of some of the most common moves on many offensive pokemon (overheat, fire blast, flare blitz, hydro pump, solar beam, superpower, outrage, etc) Aegislash is effectively operating at 80/120 = 66.6% of the power. His power seems much more manageable at an effective 100/100 base power considering his moves. The only viable move with over 90 attack is a non-STAB 150 attack Head Smash which is only really use to get around specific counters. There is a reason why his defensive synergy as a pivot is emphasized over his power.

    Another issue I see with how people are looking at his base stats is that he is perceived as a base 720 pokemon due to his ability. This seems like a misleading oversimplification to me. Aegislash, as many posters seem to agree, is a great pivot due to has fantastic typing and great 60/150/150 defenses when it switches in. The issue is that aegislash is not actually strong enough to force the opponent into a predictions game in order to avoid the effective benefits of 60/150/150 defenses when Aegislash defends and 150/150 offenses when it attacks. Aegislash has a mediocre stab combo for super effective hits, and most set-up pokemon should be able to take at least one hit, many of which can then return a risk free super effective earthquake or special attack. Furthermore, physical Aegislash can be shut down by Will-o-wisps due to the mechanics of king's shield and his low speed (substitutes will be out sped). King's shield might seem like a 50/50 prediction game, but Aegislash isn't threatening enough to force you to rely on that.

    Finally, as far as offensive vs defensive metagame the xy ou meta-game appears to be more evenly distributed than it was for most of bw. According to the usage analysis, iirc, the distribution leans toward offense but less so than in the past. The meta-game has always seemed to lean towards offense, likely because of the faster battles and therefore laddering, as well as the fact that more offensive games can be played in the same amount of time, increasing their represented percentage. Stall already appears competitive enough currently that that shouldn't be a primary concern. I could be wrong, though, since I haven't seen a more recent analysis.

    TLDR;
    Consider these points:
    1) Low power attacks give effective 100/100 offenses.
    2) King's shield is not a 50/50 prediction game. Set-up sweepers and status users seem to have favorable match-ups without prediction.
    3) The meta is not offensive-centered enough for that to be of concern.
  22. Blizzardhail

    Blizzardhail

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    I want to clear up some misconceptions here. I'm sick of seeing uninformed posters making one-liners or bad arguments. I am slightly biased though so please bear with me.
    1) Aegislash has no counters and can beat all it's "supposed counters"
    Aegislash can only beat it's counters by changing its whole set or killing itself by using Head Smash. Charizard-Y can beat Chansey too by using Flare Blitz, but it also kills itself in the process. In the same way, SubToxic allows it to beat walls and tanks, but it doesn't beat the Bisharp.
    2) Aegislash has powerful 150/150 offenses which is too powerful for OU.
    This would be true if the moves that Aegislash uses have higher Base Power. It's main STAB attack only has 80 BP. Also please stop mentioning Head Smash. It doesn't get STAB and the recoil heavily damages Aegislash with its low 60 Base HP.
    3) Just slap an Assault Vest on anything and it counters Aegislash.
    Technically this isn't false but if you need to run a suboptimal set to beat Aegislash it is only proof that Aegislash is over-centralising.
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  23. Karxrida

    Karxrida

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    About #3, Aegislash already has a ton of checks/counters which are all very viable (and many high ranked) in OU such as Bisharp, both Landos, Mandibuzz, Zard Y, Amoonguss, Hippowdon, Garchomp, Excadrill, and Gliscor.
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  24. mertyville

    mertyville

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    I believe I need to apologies on bringing up Head Smash on Aegislash because people seem not to stop talking about it. It is a pretty nasty set to lure Mandibuzz out and get ride of it to set up hazards without them being removed. Unlike something like Mega Lucario (I know this example is a little extrem but still) once you know its set, it is not too late to turn the tables.

    How many of you prepare a team to counter/check Aegislash in mind instead of thinking about the huge number of viable and powerful Mega Pokemon?
    Something with priority to cripple set up sweepers like Mega Pinsir (Thundurus with Thunderwave), something to check centain Megas (Skarmory with Counter/WWind against Mawile), something that resist flying-Spam (Skarmory), Knock-Off "Immunity" (a Mega Pokemon), a Dark Resist Overall (Azumarill) and priority Thunderwave from Thundurus (Ground-Type or Electric-Type like Gliscor)...one can argue if something with Psychic or Flying moves needs to be mentioned specificly for Mega Venusaur, but Flying is such an overall good offensive typing that most people already are prepared for Mega Venusaur without even thinking...however, that can still be argued like I mentioned.

    Lastly, the Mega Pinsir argument seems to never end with EQ vs CC...like I mentioned, Return and Double Edge at +2 do 2HKO most threats anyways...you aren't missing on anything significant out where you can even just put Stealth Rock just to put more offensive Pressure onto your opponent.
    Besides Mega Pinsir is a late game cleaner who isn't support to take on things like Skarmory or Rotom-W but they still are just checks to it.
  25. Blizzardhail

    Blizzardhail

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    It's actually targeted at that post. Who uses AV Entei which isn't viable in OU? Also, KS doesn't need skill. What kind of prediction do you have to make? It's either you KS and the opponent sets-up, you KS and the opponent hits you with an attack, you attack and the opponent outspeed sand KOs you with an attack or you attack as the opponent sets-up, KOing or heavily damaging him putting him in Shadow Sneak KO range. Both you and your opponent has only two choices that will make a 50/50
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